Criteria for dismissing Evidence

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User1663
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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by User1663 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:08 pm

Lucky wrote:Tatooine only has something like 200,000 people living on it last time I checked Wookiepedia. You seem to assume planets in Star Wars are like real world Earth when no one bats an eye when they read a home world's population to be in the thousands.
Okay bad example. What about Coruscant? Are you going to tell me that the fire departments there outnumber both armies of the Clone Wars put together by a thousand fold?
You run into more problems the larger the numbers of ships and troops get because then the Rebelion's tiny numbers makes even less sense.
Er...no, not really given that it's a rebellion and not an opposing army.

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Praeothmin
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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:15 pm

the atom wrote:
Picard wrote:
Trinoya wrote:I can't argue with that logic :P I concede to your superior reasoning :)
Cannon always trumps logic.
Does it now?

Anyways, I certainly have to side with SWST on this one. 4 million doesn't even approach credible for a police force for a planet like Tatooine, let alone an army for a war being conducted across what is certainly more then two planets.

I suppose I could buy the idea of volunteer forces taking up a very significant portion of 'TEH GRAND ARMY OF TEH REPUBLIC!!1', but thematically it makes very little sense, given that nearly 100% of all written and viewed military conflicts of the period are entirely focused on Clone forces. If 99.99% of this 'GRAND ARMY OF TEH REPUBLIC!!1' consisted of normal volunteers, you'd think that there'd be a larger bulk of material dedicated towards their exploits (certainly more then a couple snippets and some vague implications towards their existence for that matter).
Problem is, logic can only be used within the Canon parameters of said universe, else why bother to call it SW?
We should instead start vs threads with the disclaimer:
Who wins between my version of SW and my version of ST?
Because you are no longer discussing the franchises as they are depicted in Canon...

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:41 pm

Praeothmin wrote: Problem is, logic can only be used within the Canon parameters of said universe, else why bother to call it SW?
We should instead start vs threads with the disclaimer:
Who wins between my version of SW and my version of ST?
Because you are no longer discussing the franchises as they are depicted in Canon...
No. It is depicted in the novelizations and the EU that Coruscant possesses a trillion, or several trillion beings. It is inferred from the movies themselves that the actual number is various orders of magnitude higher. Either way, if you are going to do any analysis of the series at all, you have to assume that it is internally consistent enough to be believable.

That is, if you close your mind and pretend that Star Wars is real, everything makes sense. The world itself is internally consistent and rational. Otherwise, you can't possibly argue a versus, because one can simply point out that the imperial fleet might suddenly turn into a fleet of giant carrots, to make a very stupid joke.

Me: Hello, Captain Rex!
Rex: Hello citizen.
Me: Hey, er...I heard that your army consists of only 4 million men.
Rex: That is correct.
Me: So you have four men to police four star systems?
Rex: Correct.
Me: So, how does this work? How could four men possibly maintain law and order, or do anything, in this manner?
Rex: ERROR! STAR WARS DOES NOT EXIST! CAN. NOT. COMPUTE. *universe explodes*

Even more important than Science applying to both universes is that math and logic do. Scientific violations are perfectly conceivable; violations in the latter two are not. Could you comprehend a Galactic Republic, with four million clones serving as its entire army?

No. Your head would implode. You can't selectively apply logic, and say that it only sometimes is a factor in the universe. Because then, how do you know when it would apply and when it wouldn't?

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by User1663 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:15 pm

Before this gets any further it's actually worth mentioning that the new guide to warfare remedies this particular conundrum somewhat by stating that 4 million was the initial number, but that it then expanded rapidly after that.

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:45 pm

Here's a revised, and more logical, sketch by SWST:
Me: Hello, Captain Rex!
Rex: Hello citizen.
Me: Hey, er...I heard that your army consists of only 4 million men.
Rex: That is correct.
Me: So you have four men to police four star systems?
Rex: Incorrect. The Clone Army does not police anything, individual systems have their own police force, like the one seen on Naboo. We fight in the war with the separatists, who, while receiving backing from many systems, mainly have the Trade Federation droids as a fighting force. This is normal, since we had been at peace for millenia, without any armies at all, so of course, within the budget constraints from the Republic, we could only, at first, order and create an amry of a few million Clones, including ships and infantry equipment. We are currently ordering five more million Clones because the Trade Federation, still the only true fighters of this conflict (aside from a few Geonosians), are the only true army we have to face.
Me: So, how does this work? How could four men possibly maintain law and order, or do anything, in this manner?
Rex: You don't listen too well, do you? I just told you policing within systems is done by System police forces, which have nothing to do with the army.
But I can hear you asking: "Then why do we not see the Police forces in action as well?" Well, we do see them on Naboo, but I could also answer (pointing to the Naboo forces as an example) that the Police Forces were not trained for war, and thus, just like on that faraway planet called Earth we receive some images from, Police forces stands aside when a territory is invaded by an Army, and lets its country's army (system for us) take care of the fighting.

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by General Donner » Tue May 01, 2012 7:13 pm

The problem with minuscule clone and droid armies and the Clone Wars as some kind of meaningless brush war that should never seriously affect anyone on the 999,950 or so planets out of the million that aren't directly involved is that most EU material (explicitly) and the movies (implicitly) argue that the war is in fact a substantial one, and one that people do care about.

When the huge intro text to SW3 reads:

War! The Republic is crumbling
under attacks by the ruthless
Sith Lord, Count Dooku.
There are heroes on both sides.
Evil is everywhere.


--This doesn't conjure up images of some pathetic conflict that should barely make the news. Based on the text alone, I would imagine something more akin to the Civil War or World War II: Big conflicts that really shake the societies that take part in them, and some of them right down to the breaking point. Whereas a couple of million droids versus a Republic population that can span from a few trillions (low end number from some movie tie-in) to a hundred quadrillions (EU number) makes the Clone Wars into the equivalent of the Republic's smack-down of the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas in relative scale. Essentially, they sent in a small federal strike team (the clones) to deal with it because it was too small for the army or national guard to bother with. (Or the state militia, for that matter.)

It's like BattleTech, where an average planet can be conquered by a couple of hundred mechas and a few hundred thousand Clan troops are a serious threat to thousands of planets and trillions of people just because the universe is unrealistically written. I suppose it's canon, so to speak, but it's just so mind-bogglingly retarded if you take it literally that it breaks any kind of suspension of disbelief.

I really can't fault warsies for not wanting to accept that state of affairs, or for trying to engineer ways around it.

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by Praeothmin » Tue May 01, 2012 7:58 pm

Well, the numbers are Canon, and while I also agree they don't really fitthe SW scope of the war, I feel my revised scenario is much more plausible than SWST's to explain the low Canon numbers...
Although, who's to say that there are indeed the Trillions inf the SW Universe...
The movies and TCW themselves don't really give such a scale of grandeur as the EU would like...
The G and T-Canon seem to imply a small Galaxy, with only a million systems, which cover the entire Galaxy, or most of it, but seeing as how most planets seen are sparsely populated, most of these systems are most likely small colonies...

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by mojo » Wed May 02, 2012 3:59 am

wait a minute, i think this is going to backfire. what the hell are we supposed to do now, when all there is is logical, reasoned debate? i was filled with rage when this thread was created, and now i can't do a damn thing about it.

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed May 02, 2012 4:57 pm

What do you mean trooper TK4175?

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by General Donner » Sat May 05, 2012 2:40 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Well, the numbers are Canon, and while I also agree they don't really fitthe SW scope of the war, I feel my revised scenario is much more plausible than SWST's to explain the low Canon numbers...
If you want to somehow rationalize a stupid number in a franchise, you nearly always can. Pro-ICSers exist who rationalize the ICS to this day, after all, SWST himself being a prime case in point.

Clone Wars numbers, however, are generally too stupid to explain in any satisfactory way. Or at least in my opinion.
Although, who's to say that there are indeed the Trillions inf the SW Universe...
The movies and TCW themselves don't really give such a scale of grandeur as the EU would like...
Trillions of population for the Republic was cited as a SW2 novel number by sonofcnn in one thread. So AFAIK that number would be G-canon. The TV series can't override that, unless I'm mistaken about how the LFL canon hierarchy works. (I'd personally prefer the more consistent, higher EU numbers, but those it can -- and demonstrably does -- ignore.)
The G and T-Canon seem to imply a small Galaxy, with only a million systems, which cover the entire Galaxy, or most of it, but seeing as how most planets seen are sparsely populated, most of these systems are most likely small colonies...
With a total population of trillions, average per planet for a hundred thousand would be in the tens of millions or thereabouts.

Then again, thinking further ... the population of Coruscant itself probably makes up 99.9999+ per cent of those trillions, if we take that number literally. So 999,999 planets out of the million being useless backwaters probably makes sense, within the constraints of G-canon logic.

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by Khas » Sat May 05, 2012 3:24 pm

But didn't the novelization of ANH say that the Empire controlled only a small part of it's galaxy?

And believe me, a million star systems will fit in less space than you think. Within a thousand light-years of Sol, there are 50 million star systems.

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon May 07, 2012 9:02 am

More or less:

ANH novel, ch. 6, page 73

"The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion."


There are other references in the ANH novelization, but I think this gets the point across.
-Mike

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by Praeothmin » Mon May 07, 2012 12:19 pm

General Donner wrote:Clone Wars numbers, however, are generally too stupid to explain in any satisfactory way. Or at least in my opinion.
Well, I have to say I agree the numbers are ridiculously low for a Galactic Empire, but they are
Canon...
See, the movies and TCW show us some of the main engagements, and the numbers are always small, just as in ST, which points to some low numbers of Clones...
Perhaps the Clones only fight in the main battles, and leave the smaller brush wars to the natives until their help is needed, like the Wookie defense force, for example...
I don't know...
It's just that the numbers are there, they are depicted as Canon, so we must find ways to rationalize them...

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by sonofccn » Mon May 07, 2012 7:06 pm

General Donner wrote:Trillions of population for the Republic was cited as a SW2 novel number by sonofccn in one thread
Yeah, swiped from G2k's website I must admit, from the AOTC novel:
AOTC wrote:The massive towers of the Republic Executive Building loomed above it all, seeming as if they would reach the very heavens. And that seemed fitting indeed, for inside, even at this early hour, the events and participants took on godlike stature to the trillions of common folk of the Republic
So it should be G-canon and can't just be overuled by TCW. Depending on Lucas's mood and opinon of the day of course.

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Re: Criteria for dismissing Evidence

Post by Picard » Wed May 09, 2012 1:53 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:More or less:

ANH novel, ch. 6, page 73

"The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion."


There are other references in the ANH novelization, but I think this gets the point across.
-Mike
Urm... it only shows that map has shown a million star systems at that moment, it doesn't indicate size of Empire at all. Unless I have forgotten something that isn't mentioned here.

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