Criteria for dismissing Evidence
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:10 pm
When two canon sources contradict one another, there are typically several methods of reconciliation:
1. Rationalize the sources into a cohesive, internally consistent universe. Never break SoD.
2. Take the source that is more logically sound, believable, and consistent.
3. If possible, side with the higher canon source; dismiss the lesser one.
4. Side with the source with a larger quantity of other sources backing it up.
5. Dismiss both sources as being incorrect.
Personally, I would first attempt option one. Then, option two or three, then four, and then five. The problem here is that debaters have a tendency of applying different standards to different pieces of evidence to suit their own side in an argument. Which leads us to the conflict between canon and logic.
Where do logic, mathematics, and science fit in the canon scale? If a secondary source states something that doesn't make the slightest shred of sense, do you simply accept it as fact, or dismiss it as being a ridiculous outlier?
1. Dismiss the source; it is wrong.
2. Accept the source; it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, it's canon.
3. Attempt to interpret the source so as to not have to do either of the above.
Once again, the answer often shifts depending on what is convenient to the debater at hand. I personally attempt to do 3 first, then 1 (possibly unless if it is an observable fact), then 2.
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As people will doubtless attempt to turn this into, the question here isn't relately to any specific incident. However, I will use Star Wars as an example, for recognition's sake.
Problem: The four million man clone army. To puts things bluntly, the idea of four million men fighting a galactic war makes no sense on any conceivable level, so much that it is completely impossible to form in one's mind how this could possibly have happened. It is one of the largest brain bugs in the Star Wars mythos.
First, the claim here blatantly contradicts several canon sources that indicate the exact opposite; the ICS's, the Essential Chronology, etc. All of these imply far more massive clone armies.
1. Impossible, so far.
2. Obviously, this sides with the higher figures.
3. TCW appears to support the millions figure, and there is no G canon evidence explicitly indicating otherwise. However, the presence of a "million star systems" in the Empire's control necessitates a massive army and navy to police it; the manpower needed to construct the Death Star, and estimations to Coruscant's population alone also implicitly contradict TCW. Are implicit contradictions enough?
4. If we do not factor in implicit sources, the minimalists win.
5. Impossible here, as it is an either/or proposition.
Additionally, there is a very blatant clashing between these sources and Common Sense.
Solution 1: Four million men cannot possibly fight a galactic war.
Solution 2: I guess that both sides have a gentleman's agreement to magically use only millions of troops. Really, it is impossible for me to even comprehend this in my brain.
Solution 3: The clone army is only a small percentage of entire Galactic army. There were also trillions of volunteers and conscripts that we do not see, because the imaginary cameraman focuses more on the exciting clone troopers and their exploits.
Here, solution three is what I would go with; and, on a completely unrelated note, it happens to be supported by secondary canon here as well.
Most board members here would go with 3 and 2 here. But then, for the contradiction between ridiculously close ranges fought in Trek combat (even when there is no discernible reason why they would intentionally do this, in many cases) and BVR ranges, you go with 2 and 1.
Or, for example, it has been suggested that the Geonosis acceleration feat, and by one member that the probe droid turning a wampa into dust in the ESB novel, be dismissed because they aren't "logical". Ignoring my own disagreements with this accusation, we have debaters valuing logical analysis over canon evidence. Which I typically agree with. But why are various standards of canon applied arbitrarily, bound to change on a whim?
If you keep the four million man army, no matter how ridiculous, because it is canon, you must also accept:
-That Dooku's sailship really did accelerate at 20,000 Gs.
-That a probe droid really does pack the firepower to turn a wampa into dust.
-That turbolaser bolts really do have a magical component preceding them.
-That, in large scale combat, Trek ships engage one another within 10 km, even against massive and lumbering borg cubes.
-That phasers on standard settings hit redshirt pajamas and natural rock formations, and make no markings.
-That Darth Vader and Obi Wan Kenobi in ANH would have gotten their asses kicked by any random Jedi padawan in the prequels.
-That a 4.7 kilojoule shield generator is used to protect a starbase in Trek.
-That half a kiloton of gradual EM radiation is too much for the Enterprise's shields to handle.
If you dismiss short ranges in Trek on the basis of not making sense, or on the basis of authorial intent, then nitpicking Alderaan's explosion becomes extremely hypocritical, as does purporting a four million man GAR.
1. Rationalize the sources into a cohesive, internally consistent universe. Never break SoD.
2. Take the source that is more logically sound, believable, and consistent.
3. If possible, side with the higher canon source; dismiss the lesser one.
4. Side with the source with a larger quantity of other sources backing it up.
5. Dismiss both sources as being incorrect.
Personally, I would first attempt option one. Then, option two or three, then four, and then five. The problem here is that debaters have a tendency of applying different standards to different pieces of evidence to suit their own side in an argument. Which leads us to the conflict between canon and logic.
Where do logic, mathematics, and science fit in the canon scale? If a secondary source states something that doesn't make the slightest shred of sense, do you simply accept it as fact, or dismiss it as being a ridiculous outlier?
1. Dismiss the source; it is wrong.
2. Accept the source; it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, it's canon.
3. Attempt to interpret the source so as to not have to do either of the above.
Once again, the answer often shifts depending on what is convenient to the debater at hand. I personally attempt to do 3 first, then 1 (possibly unless if it is an observable fact), then 2.
------
As people will doubtless attempt to turn this into, the question here isn't relately to any specific incident. However, I will use Star Wars as an example, for recognition's sake.
Problem: The four million man clone army. To puts things bluntly, the idea of four million men fighting a galactic war makes no sense on any conceivable level, so much that it is completely impossible to form in one's mind how this could possibly have happened. It is one of the largest brain bugs in the Star Wars mythos.
First, the claim here blatantly contradicts several canon sources that indicate the exact opposite; the ICS's, the Essential Chronology, etc. All of these imply far more massive clone armies.
1. Impossible, so far.
2. Obviously, this sides with the higher figures.
3. TCW appears to support the millions figure, and there is no G canon evidence explicitly indicating otherwise. However, the presence of a "million star systems" in the Empire's control necessitates a massive army and navy to police it; the manpower needed to construct the Death Star, and estimations to Coruscant's population alone also implicitly contradict TCW. Are implicit contradictions enough?
4. If we do not factor in implicit sources, the minimalists win.
5. Impossible here, as it is an either/or proposition.
Additionally, there is a very blatant clashing between these sources and Common Sense.
Solution 1: Four million men cannot possibly fight a galactic war.
Solution 2: I guess that both sides have a gentleman's agreement to magically use only millions of troops. Really, it is impossible for me to even comprehend this in my brain.
Solution 3: The clone army is only a small percentage of entire Galactic army. There were also trillions of volunteers and conscripts that we do not see, because the imaginary cameraman focuses more on the exciting clone troopers and their exploits.
Here, solution three is what I would go with; and, on a completely unrelated note, it happens to be supported by secondary canon here as well.
Most board members here would go with 3 and 2 here. But then, for the contradiction between ridiculously close ranges fought in Trek combat (even when there is no discernible reason why they would intentionally do this, in many cases) and BVR ranges, you go with 2 and 1.
Or, for example, it has been suggested that the Geonosis acceleration feat, and by one member that the probe droid turning a wampa into dust in the ESB novel, be dismissed because they aren't "logical". Ignoring my own disagreements with this accusation, we have debaters valuing logical analysis over canon evidence. Which I typically agree with. But why are various standards of canon applied arbitrarily, bound to change on a whim?
If you keep the four million man army, no matter how ridiculous, because it is canon, you must also accept:
-That Dooku's sailship really did accelerate at 20,000 Gs.
-That a probe droid really does pack the firepower to turn a wampa into dust.
-That turbolaser bolts really do have a magical component preceding them.
-That, in large scale combat, Trek ships engage one another within 10 km, even against massive and lumbering borg cubes.
-That phasers on standard settings hit redshirt pajamas and natural rock formations, and make no markings.
-That Darth Vader and Obi Wan Kenobi in ANH would have gotten their asses kicked by any random Jedi padawan in the prequels.
-That a 4.7 kilojoule shield generator is used to protect a starbase in Trek.
-That half a kiloton of gradual EM radiation is too much for the Enterprise's shields to handle.
If you dismiss short ranges in Trek on the basis of not making sense, or on the basis of authorial intent, then nitpicking Alderaan's explosion becomes extremely hypocritical, as does purporting a four million man GAR.