So tell me, if you've never been in the military than how did you come by this military training? I'm honestly curious as someone who's been in the military myself I've found the only way to actually aquire this training is to have served.GStone wrote: And as someone that is a scientist, as well as militarily tactically trained (though I've never been in the military and I'm not talking about something I just read from a book), I've been both college and real world educated. The problem in Wong's view is that I am not SDN approved(TM). His mind puts me in the 'dumbass section'. But, it's not too bad. You'd be SDN approved(TM), even if you were in junior high school and partially retarded, as long as you said their side was right. You could still be this person and wank out Saxton's wankings.
Split: What constitutes expertise on military matters?
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Split: What constitutes expertise on military matters?
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I'm not at liberty to go into the specifics, but it wasn't as any kind of rebel/freedom fighter/terrorist. I'm not presently in the field and don't expect to be in the near future, as well as the partial anonymity the internet and a made up screen name (but even that is limited with things, such as electronic surveillance, both legal and not), so there is just a tad bit of leeway with just mentioning it in a general sense. But, it would be inappropriate for me to go into specifics though there is still the opening of deniability left even though the entity of 'GStone' can be thought of just some kook that was trying to make himself sound more knowledgable than he really was.Cpl Kendall wrote:So tell me, if you've never been in the military than how did you come by this military training? I'm honestly curious as someone who's been in the military myself I've found the only way to actually aquire this training is to have served.
But, you can look at history and there are loads of examples of people learning military tactics without being in the military. Not everyone that does learn them would be at the same level of skill, as those within a military institution because there is more access to a wider range of resources.
You don't need to be able to do everything someone from a military could do because the differences in resources keeps that from happening, but not all tactics and strategies came out of governmental institutions. As I'm sure you know, many originated from phylosophy, martial arts, experience of warriors in the battle field that has been handed down over the last several thousand years. Governmental institutions took them and ran with it, adapting them to their resources to work for them.
As I was saying, it isn't necessary to be a art of the institution. What you need is the information and the chance to experience the maneuvers. You're out of luck, for instance, without a flight simulator or a miltary jet to learn tactics for when flying in a jet and get the physical skill, unless you've got high governmental connections, but even then, it'd depend on the country and who you are. You can't just buy a jet off ebay.
Take the terrorists that have sprung up from within Iraq or the children that were in Vietnam. I'll bet you top dollar that the way they learned was by watching and someone nudging them in the right direction to notice certain things. You've got Iraqi going after Iraqi on the streets with automatic weapons, RPGs, homemade bombs that are planted in roads or shoved into cars that are driven by suicide bombers. There are probably some that had joined the Iraqi army, learned some stuff and then, deserted and taught terrorists, so they could better fight whichever side they're against. Then, they buy smuggled in weapons and go off to fight.
They may not be learning air combat tactics, but they'd be learning urban combat, some self-defense. I don't know the extent outside military people are teaching them, but they're most likely focusing on strategies that work best in urban areas in desert regions more than anything else.
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Hello coyote,
maybe as a Senator of SDN, you can explain, why the thread Darkstar's State Of The State Address For 2007 is suddenly not openly accessible.
In this thread, SDN members discuss us. You can see our posts at starfleetjedi.net. But we aren't allowed to see your posts at SDN.
Does SDN have something to hide?
Ask GStone scientifical questions or give him a tactical problem to solve and evaluate his solution. That would give you an insight in his competence.
What use would it have to you, if he would give you a copy from such degree, diplom or certificate , especially if it is from another state with different standards and therefore not comparable with the degrees, you may know?
If you don't believe him now, would you change your mind, if he could evidence, that he is, for example, professor at a military academy in "Strategy and Tactic"?
maybe as a Senator of SDN, you can explain, why the thread Darkstar's State Of The State Address For 2007 is suddenly not openly accessible.
In this thread, SDN members discuss us. You can see our posts at starfleetjedi.net. But we aren't allowed to see your posts at SDN.
Does SDN have something to hide?
Maybe you shouldn't ask for a degree, diplom or certificate but evaluate the claimed competence yourself.coyote wrote:
See, in SDN, I'd ask for evidence to back up this:
And cryptic "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" as an explanation would not fly. And since evidence would not be forthcoming, there would eventually be a Senate poll to see if this person is worth wasting space on. Not because of being a Wongbot, but rather, because at SDN there is a lower crap-tolerance watermark.GStone wrote: And as someone that is a scientist, as well as militarily tactically trained (though I've never been in the military and I'm not talking about something I just read from a book), I've been both college and real world educated.
And believe it or not, I'm actually one of the nice, polite, generally forgiving people on the board. I'm there because I already felt this way and found a acceptably comfy place, not because I showed up as unformed dough and let Mike Wong form my brain into a mirror image of his own. I'm about as far from DW as you can get in many things. Saying that it's a zombie attack is just excuse-seeking.
Ask GStone scientifical questions or give him a tactical problem to solve and evaluate his solution. That would give you an insight in his competence.
What use would it have to you, if he would give you a copy from such degree, diplom or certificate , especially if it is from another state with different standards and therefore not comparable with the degrees, you may know?
If you don't believe him now, would you change your mind, if he could evidence, that he is, for example, professor at a military academy in "Strategy and Tactic"?
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Okay, first, you have blurred pop culture with reality. Instead of going right to 'kill him' it is far easier to deny and put out a statement to discredit me would be far more effective. But, that assumes that something I said would be taken seriously...given that all I posted was words...on an internet board...that was built around the idea of 2 science fiction franchises fighting...which is never actually gonna happen.coyote wrote:And cryptic "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" as an explanation would not fly.
If what people of SDN say is true, that no one pays attention to what we say, that we are the extremists that shout so loudly so often that no one pays attention to us, then this would be buried in that noise. Nothing would ever come of it, so nothing would have to be done.
I don't have to kill anyone or have someone assigned to kill someone. The point is that this is a commitment that I take seriously. Those that are aware of how I have been trained trust me and know that I am not a security risk. I don't have hard wire taps in the telephone junction box at my place. I don't know of any software surveillance on my laptop though there's probably spyware somewhere from something I've downloaded, but this is just my personal laptop. There isn't anything that would cause a voltage spike when my phone is used.
And, as much as Wong says he's an engineer with a degree, the engineering incompetance I seen him write on his site over the years makes me think he either cheated on his tests or he didn't go to school. I'm not aware of any university in the US or Canada that requires that you show you're a student when you buy textbooks. I never did at any of the schools I went to. You park in a visitor's spot, walk into the book store, thumb through the books on the relevent subjects you want to learn and choose the one that covers the stuff you want to know.And since evidence would not be forthcoming, there would eventually be a Senate poll to see if this person is worth wasting space on. Not because of being a Wongbot, but rather, because at SDN there is a lower crap-tolerance watermark.
It isn't even required you do all that because a lot of engineering and physics and such is available online at education sites.
globalsecurity.org has military field manuals and most don't need a username and password to access. Online books stores, like amazon.com sell field manuals, too, including a version from a few years ago of the army FM 31-20 special forces operational techniques. You wanna know how to work through a forested/jungle area, as you're firing or even an urban area? Paintball. The weapons there don't pack the punch of real automatic weapons of the battle field, so you go to the target ranges that let you rent automatic weapons. Learn to shoot with your body in different positions. Wanna sharp shoot? I've heard of ranges for that, too.
Hunt and track, but without killing people and animals? Set up multiple camps over short distances at first. Some days, one camp does the hunting, while the other doesn't. Then, you spread out how far and how long you track.
Wanna learn aerial maneuvers? Learn to fly a plane and/or helicopter and join an air show. On the surface water firghting. You might be able to find a paintball version. Wanna learn how to fight under water? Not that hard to figure out without being in the military? Even fighting in zero gravity isn't that hard a thing. Get in one of those planes that takes you high enough you're virtually weightless. Parachuting? No problem. Scuba diving? No problem. Even underwater maneuvers in a submarine isn't that hard a thing to learn because not all subs are big hinkin' things.
All it takes is some creativity for civilians to get it, especially if they research who was involved in setting the place up. Lots of ex-military people make businesses that let civilians experience parts of the military without being in one. Hell, a parent that was in the military that teaches their kid military tactics and self-defense taught in the military doesn't make the kid part of the military.
I could even go on to explain how the instructions for improvised explosive devices are online through websites and online bookstores, as well certain not online bookstores. I just takes a little time, some creativity and research on your part. The Art of War by Sun Tzu is still studied today with the every changing landscape of criminals and terrorists and that book is old as shit. It's wealth of information is so vast that it's used even in areas off the battle field. All this stuff I've just mentioned is right off the top of my head.
This is just a small portion of how it could be done.
A viewpoint similar to his can come from someone from pretty much any background, just as it does with ours.And believe it or not, I'm actually one of the nice, polite, generally forgiving people on the board. I'm there because I already felt this way and found a acceptably comfy place, not because I showed up as unformed dough and let Mike Wong form my brain into a mirror image of his own. I'm about as far from DW as you can get in many things. Saying that it's a zombie attack is just excuse-seeking.
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So tell me then the police and the Border Patrol teach FIBUA training and fire and movement tactics to the extent that the police can execute a section attack with the confidence and ability of a military section? The SWAT teams and special operations teams of the police none with standing, those teams are specifically designed to execute operations of a military nature within a civilian enviroment. Although the average SWAT team member has nothing on an military members wide range of skills.Who is like God arbour wrote:
I have only served my basic military service. But I have learned, that someone doesn't have to be a good strategist or tactician, only because he is in the military. That applies especially to lower ranks - and the american military. I know some of the results of NATO manoeuvres - thank you very much.
The shown competence from such soldiers, is not very hard to outperform.
And there are other possibilities to aquire such training. In the police or Border Patrol for example. The german SEK's or the GSG9 are very well trained and can outperform most soldiers easily.
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Hmaybe as a Senator of SDN, you can explain, why the thread Darkstar's State Of The State Address For 2007 is suddenly not openly accessible.
In this thread, SDN members discuss us. You can see our posts at starfleetjedi.net. But we aren't allowed to see your posts at SDN.
Probably because Darkstar has been discussed at great length and ad nauseum. Darkstar and SDN have sniped back and forth for some time now, and the subject at this stage is old and tired, although still a source of wry amusement every so often. I can't speculate as to why it ended up in a member-only forum, it probably was just started in the HoS because it was seen as something foolish from the get-go, a mockery. It's not some big secret that Darkstar is not on the top of anyone's A-list over there so the surprise at this seems to me to be an excuse to drum up paranoia.
Like this!
C'mon. Like we're all twirling our muustaches and listening to Bach's "Tocatta and Fugue in D-minor" while lightning crackles outside? Can't talk now, got a widow and her orphans that need evicting.Does SDN have something to hide?
Because there is a big difference between a book answer which may be technically correct and the real thing. I can read manuals, watch training videos, and Tom Clancy books all day and sound like I know what I'm talking about. There are some armchair generals out there that really know their stuff, but that doesn't mean they'd really know what to do in an actual combat situation.(In Regards: GStone:)
Maybe you shouldn't ask for a degree, diplom or certificate but evaluate the claimed competence yourself.
Ask GStone scientifical questions or give him a tactical problem to solve and evaluate his solution. That would give you an insight in his competence.
But why would being a military professor be a thing that couldn't be talked about? He states having military tactical training but was never in the military, and it wasn't stuff he got from just reading books. When asked what that means, the reply is "I can't go into detail". If a person is an armchair general, he can just say so. It's not such a big deal. But it helps if I can put his claim into a context. Was it:What use would it have to you, if he would give you a copy from such degree, diplom or certificate , especially if it is from another state with different standards and therefore not comparable with the degrees, you may know?
If you don't believe him now, would you change your mind, if he could evidence, that he is, for example, professor at a military academy in "Strategy and Tactic"?
-a "mercenary school"?
-"Survivalist training camp"?
-membership in the White Rangers?
-a militia, and if it was a militia was it one of the modern, legitimate civil-defense oriented militias, or one of the angry 1990's "bring down the ZOG" type militias?
-Other?
Turns out it was membership in a hardcore paintball league of some sort. Fine, why was it such a big secret? Paintball is a loooonng way from actual combat but it does provide a dimension that watching "Band of Brothers" over and over again doesn't provide. If his list of manuals and so on is any indication, and his application of military training consistent while on paintball maneuvers, he's better educated than the average civilian-- but I still wouldn't recommend a trip to Baghdad without further training first.
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That's exactly what I thought you'd say.GStone wrote:
I'm not at liberty to go into the specifics, but it wasn't as any kind of rebel/freedom fighter/terrorist. I'm not presently in the field and don't expect to be in the near future, as well as the partial anonymity the internet and a made up screen name (but even that is limited with things, such as electronic surveillance, both legal and not), so there is just a tad bit of leeway with just mentioning it in a general sense. But, it would be inappropriate for me to go into specifics though there is still the opening of deniability left even though the entity of 'GStone' can be thought of just some kook that was trying to make himself sound more knowledgable than he really was.
And should I have some sort of respect for obvious amateurs?But, you can look at history and there are loads of examples of people learning military tactics without being in the military. Not everyone that does learn them would be at the same level of skill, as those within a military institution because there is more access to a wider range of resources.
You don't need to be able to do everything someone from a military could do because the differences in resources keeps that from happening, but not all tactics and strategies came out of governmental institutions. As I'm sure you know, many originated from phylosophy, martial arts, experience of warriors in the battle field that has been handed down over the last several thousand years. Governmental institutions took them and ran with it, adapting them to their resources to work for them.
I fail to see how praticing military tactics in the woods behind someones house gives someone license to claim they have military training.As I was saying, it isn't necessary to be a art of the institution. What you need is the information and the chance to experience the maneuvers. You're out of luck, for instance, without a flight simulator or a miltary jet to learn tactics for when flying in a jet and get the physical skill, unless you've got high governmental connections, but even then, it'd depend on the country and who you are. You can't just buy a jet off ebay.
And in case you haven't noticed the Iraqi's are terrible at it. They lose every stand up fight they get into and they are dying in droves. The only reason they are successful is because they outnumber the occupiers and the IEDS.Take the terrorists that have sprung up from within Iraq or the children that were in Vietnam. I'll bet you top dollar that the way they learned was by watching and someone nudging them in the right direction to notice certain things. You've got Iraqi going after Iraqi on the streets with automatic weapons, RPGs, homemade bombs that are planted in roads or shoved into cars that are driven by suicide bombers. There are probably some that had joined the Iraqi army, learned some stuff and then, deserted and taught terrorists, so they could better fight whichever side they're against. Then, they buy smuggled in weapons and go off to fight.
They may not be learning air combat tactics, but they'd be learning urban combat, some self-defense. I don't know the extent outside military people are teaching them, but they're most likely focusing on strategies that work best in urban areas in desert regions more than anything else.
- Who is like God arbour
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1. What is FIBUA training?Cpl Kendall wrote:So tell me then the police and the Border Patrol teach FIBUA training and fire and movement tactics to the extent that the police can execute a section attack with the confidence and ability of a military section? The SWAT teams and special operations teams of the police none with standing, those teams are specifically designed to execute operations of a military nature within a civilian enviroment.Who is like God arbour wrote:
I have only served my basic military service. But I have learned, that someone doesn't have to be a good strategist or tactician, only because he is in the military. That applies especially to lower ranks - and the american military. I know some of the results of NATO manoeuvres - thank you very much.
The shown competence from such soldiers, is not very hard to outperform.
And there are other possibilities to aquire such training. In the police or Border Patrol for example. The german SEK's or the GSG9 are very well trained and can outperform most soldiers easily.
2. I have not said, that all policemen have such a training. The training would be different from state to state and unit to unit. But in Germany, the policemans are well trained and would become an officer, if they enter the Bundeswehr.
Especialy in an army, which has a high part of "illiterates" because they recruit their soldiers mainly from a lower social background.Although the average SWAT team member has nothing on an military members wide range of skills.
My experience with american soldiers here in Germany indicate, that the average member of a german SEK or GSG team can outperform the average soldier easily.
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There's also a point that your missing in all this about people that are self-taught. When they go up against professionals, they typically lose. That's why the Taliban and the Iraqi's can't win any stand up fights against professional forces. They lack the training to pull it off, along with a severe equipment disparity. And that's why they fight an insurgency.GStone wrote:
I'm not at liberty to go into the specifics, but it wasn't as any kind of rebel/freedom fighter/terrorist. I'm not presently in the field and don't expect to be in the near future, as well as the partial anonymity the internet and a made up screen name (but even that is limited with things, such as electronic surveillance, both legal and not), so there is just a tad bit of leeway with just mentioning it in a general sense. But, it would be inappropriate for me to go into specifics though there is still the opening of deniability left even though the entity of 'GStone' can be thought of just some kook that was trying to make himself sound more knowledgable than he really was.
But, you can look at history and there are loads of examples of people learning military tactics without being in the military. Not everyone that does learn them would be at the same level of skill, as those within a military institution because there is more access to a wider range of resources.
You don't need to be able to do everything someone from a military could do because the differences in resources keeps that from happening, but not all tactics and strategies came out of governmental institutions. As I'm sure you know, many originated from phylosophy, martial arts, experience of warriors in the battle field that has been handed down over the last several thousand years. Governmental institutions took them and ran with it, adapting them to their resources to work for them.
As I was saying, it isn't necessary to be a art of the institution. What you need is the information and the chance to experience the maneuvers. You're out of luck, for instance, without a flight simulator or a miltary jet to learn tactics for when flying in a jet and get the physical skill, unless you've got high governmental connections, but even then, it'd depend on the country and who you are. You can't just buy a jet off ebay.
Take the terrorists that have sprung up from within Iraq or the children that were in Vietnam. I'll bet you top dollar that the way they learned was by watching and someone nudging them in the right direction to notice certain things. You've got Iraqi going after Iraqi on the streets with automatic weapons, RPGs, homemade bombs that are planted in roads or shoved into cars that are driven by suicide bombers. There are probably some that had joined the Iraqi army, learned some stuff and then, deserted and taught terrorists, so they could better fight whichever side they're against. Then, they buy smuggled in weapons and go off to fight.
They may not be learning air combat tactics, but they'd be learning urban combat, some self-defense. I don't know the extent outside military people are teaching them, but they're most likely focusing on strategies that work best in urban areas in desert regions more than anything else.
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You really need to start paying attention. You even quoted me saying 'though I've never been in the military and I'm not talking about something I just read from a book'.coyote wrote:Because there is a big difference between a book answer which may be technically correct and the real thing. I can read manuals, watch training videos, and Tom Clancy books all day and sound like I know what I'm talking about. There are some armchair generals out there that really know their stuff, but that doesn't mean they'd really know what to do in an actual combat situation.
See there? I put it in bold. It was on the last page and it was in your first post on this board. I specifically said I wasn't refering to just reading from a book.
-Is all my knowledge just theory? Answer: No.
-Have I been out in the field? Answer: Yes.
-Have I lead people and not just been one that follows orders? Answer: Yes.
-Was I even talking to you when I said it? Answer: No.
-Was painball how I learned? Answer: No. I've never played paintball.
-Did I learn with any of the methods I listed a civilian could use to get an idea of what it's like? Answer: Aside from reading Sun Tzu and using a firing range, I haven't joined an air show, I've never played paintball, I don't buy operation field manuals, I hate camping, but I know how to do it, I've been in a sub only once when I was young, I learned long ago how to scuba dive.
-Have I ever fired a gun? Answer: Yes.
-Did it take me long? Answer: No, I'm a natural shot.
-Have I ever fired a gun on someone? Answer: Yes.
-Have I ever been in a knife fight? Answer: Yes.
-Have I ever fought unarmed against someone with a gun or without one? Answer: Yes to both.
-Have I ever watched men die and/or were they part of the ones I've lead? Answer: Yes to both.
Again, I must show you how you aren't paying attention because I said there are ways that one can learn military tactics without being in the military that civilians can use. But, when I mention Iraq or Vietnam, you gloss over those and go for what you're trying to make out to be the weakest part of my argument and say that's how I learn when I expressly said it isn't.
And this is the decision making that's supposedly much better than ours? I'm to believe that?
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Fighting In Built Up Areas. The Canadian Army term for MOUT or Urban combat.Who is like God arbour wrote:
1. What is FIBUA training?
You said police or border guard, implying that all did. It's not my fault that you constructed your argument poorly.2. I have not said, that all policemen have such a training. The training would be different from state to state and unit to unit. But in Germany, the policemans are well trained and would become an officer, if they enter the Bundeswehr.
I'm not talking about the American Army but the Canadian Army, which I was a member of and a high percentage of are well educated. Unlike the American Army we do not draw from just the poor segment of society but from all segments of Canadian society. And our individual soldiers are much better trained.
Especialy in an army, which has a high part of "illiterates" because they recruit their soldiers mainly from a lower social background.
My experience with american soldiers here in Germany indicate, that the average member of a german SEK or GSG team can outperform the average soldier easily.
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I couldn't care what you expected, but you also show that you were wanting to be deceptive. You say you're 'honestly curious', but you aren't. What a shocker.Cpl Kendall wrote:That's exactly what I thought you'd say.
I don't care who you have respect for. That isn't my problem.And should I have some sort of respect for obvious amateurs?
I wasn't saying it did.I fail to see how praticing military tactics in the woods behind someones house gives someone license to claim they have military training.
As I said, they are learning something of military tactics, but without the same resources, they can't get the same skill level as those with those resources. I've already said this.And in case you haven't noticed the Iraqi's are terrible at it. They lose every stand up fight they get into and they are dying in droves. The only reason they are successful is because they outnumber the occupiers and the IEDS.
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- Who is like God arbour
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The thread has nothing to do with Darkstar anymore. And it was closed after the topic has changed.coyote wrote: Probably because Darkstar has been discussed at great length and ad nauseum. Darkstar and SDN have sniped back and forth for some time now, and the subject at this stage is old and tired, although still a source of wry amusement every so often. I can't speculate as to why it ended up in a member-only forum, it probably was just started in the HoS because it was seen as something foolish from the get-go, a mockery. It's not some big secret that Darkstar is not on the top of anyone's A-list over there so the surprise at this seems to me to be an excuse to drum up paranoia.
Like this!
Exactly my point. A degree, diplom or certificate doesn't show, that someone is competent. You have to look at the decisions, this person made.Because there is a big difference between a book answer which may be technically correct and the real thing. I can read manuals, watch training videos, and Tom Clancy books all day and sound like I know what I'm talking about. There are some armchair generals out there that really know their stuff, but that doesn't mean they'd really know what to do in an actual combat situation.(In Regards: GStone:)
Maybe you shouldn't ask for a degree, diplom or certificate but evaluate the claimed competence yourself.
Ask GStone scientifical questions or give him a tactical problem to solve and evaluate his solution. That would give you an insight in his competence.
Hey, it was only an example. I don't know, what GStone does.But why would being a military professor be a thing that couldn't be talked about?What use would it have to you, if he would give you a copy from such degree, diplom or certificate , especially if it is from another state with different standards and therefore not comparable with the degrees, you may know?
If you don't believe him now, would you change your mind, if he could evidence, that he is, for example, professor at a military academy in "Strategy and Tactic"?
I could have said, that he could be an agent of a secret service.
He hasn't said, it was a membership in a hardcore paintball league of some sort. He has only given examples, where you could get military tactical training, without beeing a member of military.He states having military tactical training but was never in the military, and it wasn't stuff he got from just reading books. When asked what that means, the reply is "I can't go into detail". If a person is an armchair general, he can just say so. It's not such a big deal. But it helps if I can put his claim into a context. Was it:
-a "mercenary school"?
-"Survivalist training camp"?
-membership in the White Rangers?
-a militia, and if it was a militia was it one of the modern, legitimate civil-defense oriented militias, or one of the angry 1990's "bring down the ZOG" type militias?
-Other?
Turns out it was membership in a hardcore paintball league of some sort. Fine, why was it such a big secret? Paintball is a loooonng way from actual combat but it does provide a dimension that watching "Band of Brothers" over and over again doesn't provide. If his list of manuals and so on is any indication, and his application of military training consistent while on paintball maneuvers, he's better educated than the average civilian--
I wouldn't recommend that to no soldier. I don't know, how it is in other armies. In the Bundeswehr, every soldier, who goes abroad in a war area, gets a special training first.but I still wouldn't recommend a trip to Baghdad without further training first.
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When you ask a question and get a bunch of BS spin for an answer one shouldn't be questioning my motives. Which for the record where concerned with looking for a possible poser, which I can't stand.GStone wrote: I couldn't care what you expected, but you also show that you were wanting to be deceptive. You say you're 'honestly curious', but you aren't. What a shocker.
I never said you had too.
I don't care who you have respect for. That isn't my problem.
Good.
I wasn't saying it did.
It's obvious that some in the insurgency have access to former Iraqi Army troops and training but those seem to be few and far between.As I said, they are learning something of military tactics, but without the same resources, they can't get the same skill level as those with those resources. I've already said this.