EU consistency as an argument

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Picard
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EU consistency as an argument

Post by Picard » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:18 pm

Many pro-Wars debaters point out that, since care is taken for Star Wars EU to be consistent, it must also be canon, despite George Lucas' statements. Comparation is also made to internal chaos of Star Trek EU.

However, it may not be so. While Star Trek EU is made of multitude of parallel universes (Star Trek Armada universe, Star Trek Online universe and so on), Star Wars EU is one single universe. However, it is not consistent with movies (like, why Death Stars were so scary, and why bother building them in first place), dropping that argument into water.

Thoughts?

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:13 pm

The SW EU is far, far from being consistent...
Power and number of ships depend on author, Jedi strength and powers as well...
Numbers are all over the place...
Whoever said the EU was consistent is an idiot...

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Picard » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:53 pm

Try pojting out that to warsies on SDN or SBC.

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:00 pm

Picard wrote:Try pojting out that to warsies on SDN or SBC.
I have better things to do with my time... :)

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by 2046 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:30 pm

Intentional (even if questionable) maintenance of an internal consistency among a particular body of work *is* a strong argument for the notion of a canon policy for that body of work. However, that's as far as it goes.

The flaw of the argument as you have presented it is that they are confounding internal consistency with overall consistency. This is basically the same issue I address here with the super-duper thingy:

http://www.canonwars.com/SWCanon2.html#V-C-2

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Picard » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:13 pm

As I said... Star Wars has two paralel universes... one is canon, and one is not canon when taken together. But, both are consistent internally. Thing is, Warsies use it as an argument for overall continuity, they go "Lucasfilm watches over EU, so it is canon, LOL" and ignore its utter inconsistency with Lucas' own universe.

And I don't think there is any super-duper thingy, except as in "it's called Star Wars, so it's part of Star Wars universe"; in same way as Star Trek: Armada series of games or Star Trek Technical Manuals are part of Star Trek universe, while not being canon.

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:02 pm

Picard wrote:And I don't think there is any super-duper thingy, except as in "it's called Star Wars, so it's part of Star Wars universe"; in same way as Star Trek: Armada series of games or Star Trek Technical Manuals are part of Star Trek universe, while not being canon.
There's a big difference here, one we've covered long ago:
SW HAS a canon policy that specifically says G-Canon (movies and movie Novels, official Lucas statements) are on top, then T-Canon (TCW movie and series) follow closely, then C-Canon (tech books like the ICS, EU novels and comic books) and N-Canon (non-canon, like the SW Holiday Special)...
So all is good, but G and T are higher up in the fodd and validity chain...

While Paramount has stated that movies and series only, with certain elements of two novels, are canon...

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Picard » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:29 pm

Big difference... which Lucas apparently doesn't give a crap about.

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:31 pm

Picard wrote:Big difference... which Lucas apparently doesn't give a crap about.
He doesn't give a crap about the fans either, but that's neither here nor there... :)

Seriously, the way I see the Canon policy is:
"As long as George hasn't expicitely shat on it yet, it's still valid, although less than the higher canon thingies..."

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Picard » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:04 pm

As far as some quotes from Lucas I have seen here and on Canonwars go, he has pretty much shat on EU canonicity.

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Lucky » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:46 pm

Picard wrote:And I don't think there is any super-duper thingy, except as in "it's called Star Wars, so it's part of Star Wars universe"; in same way as Star Trek: Armada series of games or Star Trek Technical Manuals are part of Star Trek universe, while not being canon.
Praeothmin wrote: There's a big difference here, one we've covered long ago:
SW HAS a canon policy that specifically says G-Canon (movies and movie Novels, official Lucas statements) are on top, then T-Canon (TCW movie and series) follow closely, then C-Canon (tech books like the ICS, EU novels and comic books) and N-Canon (non-canon, like the SW Holiday Special)...
So all is good, but G and T are higher up in the fodd and validity chain...

While Paramount has stated that movies and series only, with certain elements of two novels, are canon...
Actually since parallel universes are canon in the TV series and movies that means everything is canon for Star Trek, but takes place in parallel universes.

It also makes the Q a multiple universe power.

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Picard » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:08 pm

And EU is a paralel universe, meaning that allowing EU into debate (and accepting it as canon - which, according to Lucas, it isn't) makes entire debate nonsensical. Since Star Trek has literally infinite amount of parallel universes... no matter what the Star Wars firepower is, it can never win against such odds.

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by KSW » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:13 am

Picard wrote:As I said... Star Wars has two paralel universes... one is canon, and one is not canon when taken together. But, both are consistent internally. Thing is, Warsies use it as an argument for overall continuity, they go "Lucasfilm watches over EU, so it is canon, LOL" and ignore its utter inconsistency with Lucas' own universe.

And I don't think there is any super-duper thingy, except as in "it's called Star Wars, so it's part of Star Wars universe"; in same way as Star Trek: Armada series of games or Star Trek Technical Manuals are part of Star Trek universe, while not being canon.
More like they'll say "we've proven they're the same universe a million times, so you must be a trekkie troll, you're banned!"

They don't know the dif between a fictitious universe and a franchise, and so claim that everything with "Star Wars" on it must be one in the same.

That's like saying, Kirk knew about the star "Lucifer" from the movie 2010 (which burns until the year 3000), because they both exist in the Earth solar-system in the year 2270. But they don't, because they're different fictitious unverses, though they may share common history with our universe.
Same with the Star Wars G-canon universe and the EU, i.e. they're different fictitious universes even though they both take place in the same faraway galaxy and involve all the things in the G-canon; that's as far as it goes, since the G-canon doesn't involve anything from the EU that ISN"T in the G-Canon.

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by KSW » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:25 am

Picard wrote:And EU is a paralel universe, meaning that allowing EU into debate (and accepting it as canon - which, according to Lucas, it isn't) makes entire debate nonsensical. Since Star Trek has literally infinite amount of parallel universes... no matter what the Star Wars firepower is, it can never win against such odds.
I think the term "parallel universe" requires definition here, since it's being used in more than one.

Star Trek's "parallel universes" are like the mirror-universe, i.e. simply part of the same fictitious multiverse, and so it's possible to travel from one to the other.

Star Wars's GU (G-Canon Universe) and EU (everything else) are different fictitious universes, which aren't multiverses at all; and so it's impossible for anything from the EU to happen in the GU unless Lucas says so.

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Re: EU consistency as an argument

Post by Picard » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:01 pm

I know. But point was that if Star Wars is allowed to use EU, Star Trek should be allowed to use all of its paralel universes, even if we allow for SW EU to be canon.

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