Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

For all your discussion of canon policies, evidentiary standards, and other meta-debate issues.

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Picard
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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Picard » Tue May 03, 2011 8:50 am

Lucas has stated that Anakin Skywalker had most Force potential; and Luke is probably in his league. But Anakin never had chance to trully develop it, and that's why Palpy wanted Luke. But still, there should be limit to wank - which means that Oragahn's "lame explanation" might actually be best avaliable explanation.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri May 06, 2011 12:58 am

Enterprise E wrote:There may be a way we can put this all to rest. How powerful are Vader and Palpatine in this game? Now I haven't played the game, so I have no idea how powerful Vader and Palpatine are in the game so I'd need someone who has played to tell me how strong they are. If they're on the level of Galen Marek, rather than curbstomped with contemptuous ease by him, given their respective power levels, then i think that we can disregard the feat of pulling down the Star Destroyer as something made by the game, or game mechanics, or something else since we have never seen anything anywhere close to that from either of the characters in the movies, the highest level of canon there is. Heck, even Palpatine's power in Dark Empire could theoretically be justified since he had six years to train exclusively on using the force, rather than worry about running the Empire. It's a huge leap, but still, after six years of intense training, I could see Palpatine getting stronger. If Vader had Galen Marek's level of power, then there would have not even been a fight with Luke either film, regardless of his state of mind. Vader would have won, pure and simple, without even having to really hurt Luke in the process. Yet Luke was clearly holding his own to beating Vader in Return of the Jedi, even when he was doing his best not to hurt Vader. And the difference between Luke and Vader in The Empire Strikes Back was not so great as to be insurmountable. After all, Luke got a couple good hits in on Vader in that fight.
Game mechanics?
They'll still say that the overall story is canon, and it's hard to trim it down to such a level that you can erase the idea that one dude used the Force to force an ISD to land so he could board it.

...
Admiral Breetai wrote:Vader got smashed through a starships wall bit much more then his canon self
That was the ad. They also had a superb ad for the ISD crashing, but everything changed in game, didn't it?

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Picard » Wed May 11, 2011 1:36 pm

They'll still say that the overall story is canon, and it's hard to trim it down to such a level that you can erase the idea that one dude used the Force to force an ISD to land so he could board it.
Or navigate your way around it. As you already did.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Lucky » Thu May 12, 2011 4:35 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Enterprise E wrote:There may be a way we can put this all to rest. How powerful are Vader and Palpatine in this game? Now I haven't played the game, so I have no idea how powerful Vader and Palpatine are in the game so I'd need someone who has played to tell me how strong they are. If they're on the level of Galen Marek, rather than curbstomped with contemptuous ease by him, given their respective power levels, then i think that we can disregard the feat of pulling down the Star Destroyer as something made by the game, or game mechanics, or something else since we have never seen anything anywhere close to that from either of the characters in the movies, the highest level of canon there is. Heck, even Palpatine's power in Dark Empire could theoretically be justified since he had six years to train exclusively on using the force, rather than worry about running the Empire. It's a huge leap, but still, after six years of intense training, I could see Palpatine getting stronger. If Vader had Galen Marek's level of power, then there would have not even been a fight with Luke either film, regardless of his state of mind. Vader would have won, pure and simple, without even having to really hurt Luke in the process. Yet Luke was clearly holding his own to beating Vader in Return of the Jedi, even when he was doing his best not to hurt Vader. And the difference between Luke and Vader in The Empire Strikes Back was not so great as to be insurmountable. After all, Luke got a couple good hits in on Vader in that fight.
Game mechanics?
They'll still say that the overall story is canon, and it's hard to trim it down to such a level that you can erase the idea that one dude used the Force to force an ISD to land so he could board it.

...
Admiral Breetai wrote:Vader got smashed through a starships wall bit much more then his canon self
That was the ad. They also had a superb ad for the ISD crashing, but everything changed in game, didn't it?
Clearly the force was on his side, and the ISD skipped a much needed repulsor lift tuneup. ^_^

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by User1618 » Fri May 13, 2011 6:51 am

Picard wrote:Lucas has stated that Anakin Skywalker had most Force potential; and Luke is probably in his league. But Anakin never had chance to trully develop it, and that's why Palpy wanted Luke. But still, there should be limit to wank - which means that Oragahn's "lame explanation" might actually be best avaliable explanation.
Palpy wanted Luke because otherwise Luke would be against him.
Obviously Vader's midichlorian levels were lower once he lost most of his body; but Luke's would only be about half Anakin's original levels, since Anakin was created by Darth Plageis from the Force itself by directly influencing mdichlorians; Luke was just his son, and Padme didn't have even standard Jedi-levels.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri May 13, 2011 3:08 pm

TheTerminator wrote:
Picard wrote:Lucas has stated that Anakin Skywalker had most Force potential; and Luke is probably in his league. But Anakin never had chance to trully develop it, and that's why Palpy wanted Luke. But still, there should be limit to wank - which means that Oragahn's "lame explanation" might actually be best avaliable explanation.
Palpy wanted Luke because otherwise Luke would be against him.
Obviously Vader's midichlorian levels were lower once he lost most of his body; but Luke's would only be about half Anakin's original levels, since Anakin was created by Darth Plageis from the Force itself by directly influencing mdichlorians; Luke was just his son, and Padme didn't have even standard Jedi-levels.
Doesn't work that way, otherwise Force sensitive people couldn't appear within bloodlines that never counted FS people. Whatever causes those "mutations" is unknown.
There's no proof that midichlorian rate is lower if one of the parents is not FS.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri May 13, 2011 7:41 pm

Honestly, given what a mess the PT is, does anyone really think that Lucas thought this stuff out, or ran it by someone other than a sychopantic "Yes" drone to see if any of it made sense?
-Mike

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Picard » Sun May 15, 2011 12:41 pm

TheTerminator wrote:
Picard wrote:Lucas has stated that Anakin Skywalker had most Force potential; and Luke is probably in his league. But Anakin never had chance to trully develop it, and that's why Palpy wanted Luke. But still, there should be limit to wank - which means that Oragahn's "lame explanation" might actually be best avaliable explanation.
Palpy wanted Luke because otherwise Luke would be against him.
Obviously Vader's midichlorian levels were lower once he lost most of his body; but Luke's would only be about half Anakin's original levels, since Anakin was created by Darth Plageis from the Force itself by directly influencing mdichlorians; Luke was just his son, and Padme didn't have even standard Jedi-levels.
What is source of that whole created-from-Force stuff? Background info or EU?

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by mojo » Tue May 17, 2011 8:19 am

Picard wrote:
TheTerminator wrote:
Picard wrote:Lucas has stated that Anakin Skywalker had most Force potential; and Luke is probably in his league. But Anakin never had chance to trully develop it, and that's why Palpy wanted Luke. But still, there should be limit to wank - which means that Oragahn's "lame explanation" might actually be best avaliable explanation.
Palpy wanted Luke because otherwise Luke would be against him.
Obviously Vader's midichlorian levels were lower once he lost most of his body; but Luke's would only be about half Anakin's original levels, since Anakin was created by Darth Plageis from the Force itself by directly influencing mdichlorians; Luke was just his son, and Padme didn't have even standard Jedi-levels.
What is source of that whole created-from-Force stuff? Background info or EU?
why does everyone keep asking this? it's the weird bubble opera scene in rots. palpatine claims that there was once a sith so powerful that he could create life using the force, and people latch onto that as an explanation for anakin's stupid virgin birth.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Picard » Fri May 20, 2011 2:38 pm

Aaah, but we don't know wether "good" old Palpy was saying truth on that one. He might as well have lied. Plus, what is source on that "virgin birth" of Anakin? I don't remember anything being said about his father (thought my memory is admittedly crappy about that one).

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri May 20, 2011 3:06 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Honestly, given what a mess the PT is, does anyone really think that Lucas thought this stuff out, or ran it by someone other than a sychopantic "Yes" drone to see if any of it made sense?
-Mike
that's what I was thinking mind you when he does brainstorm with people (most notably spielberg) you get well you get the temple of Doom so maybe it's better to let him just wing it? if he actually stopped to think it could of been much worse

mojo wrote:why does everyone keep asking this? it's the weird bubble opera scene in rots. palpatine claims that there was once a sith so powerful that he could create life using the force, and people latch onto that as an explanation for anakin's stupid virgin birth.
what Mojo said

germs created anakin..vs a crazy sith alchemist did either way I always thought Luke was the force Messiah since he y'know did what his ol'jesus man was supposed to do
Picard wrote:Aaah, but we don't know wether "good" old Palpy was saying truth on that one. He might as well have lied. Plus, what is source on that "virgin birth" of Anakin? I don't remember anything being said about his father (thought my memory is admittedly crappy about that one).
we do specifically Lucas created the guy as palpy's master what Sidious was saying was a half truth designed to manipulate Anakins desperation it's more or less "true" in the sense that the guy existed though Anakin was very clearly a Vrigin birth by the force itself..I have no clue why fanboys try to claim Sidous was being forthcoming there but plagious and his Midichlorian master is canon and so much so that Lucas wants to keep a lid on the guys mystery to the extent that IIRC he absolutely wont allow EU writers to touch the guy at all and nixed numerous books on him

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by User1619 » Sat May 21, 2011 6:08 pm

mojo wrote:
Picard wrote:What is source of that whole created-from-Force stuff? Background info or EU?
why does everyone keep asking this? it's the weird bubble opera scene in rots. palpatine claims that there was once a sith so powerful that he could create life using the force, and people latch onto that as an explanation for anakin's stupid virgin birth.
Yeah, because only real newbs need a singing-telegram.
Why else do you think that Palps was telling him that?

That Sith was Darth Plagueis, and he was Palpy's Sith-Master until Palpy killed him in his sleep.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by mojo » Sat May 21, 2011 11:29 pm

Picard wrote:Aaah, but we don't know wether "good" old Palpy was saying truth on that one. He might as well have lied. Plus, what is source on that "virgin birth" of Anakin? I don't remember anything being said about his father (thought my memory is admittedly crappy about that one).
phantom menace. qui-gon asks ani's mom about his dad and she tells him he was a virgin birth. it was the dumbest thing ever and an extremely odd choice for lucas to make considering he wasn't very christ-like.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by mojo » Sat May 21, 2011 11:37 pm

HeroHeeto wrote:
mojo wrote:
Picard wrote:What is source of that whole created-from-Force stuff? Background info or EU?
why does everyone keep asking this? it's the weird bubble opera scene in rots. palpatine claims that there was once a sith so powerful that he could create life using the force, and people latch onto that as an explanation for anakin's stupid virgin birth.
Yeah, because only real newbs need a singing-telegram.
Why else do you think that Palps was telling him that?

That Sith was Darth Plagueis, and he was Palpy's Sith-Master until Palpy killed him in his sleep.
i may have missed something. i know that the assumption i made personally was the same as this - that plaguis was palpatine's sith master - but do we ever actually get confirmation?
and personally, i find the idea of anakin as being created by plaguis more fitting than the idea that the force created him all on it's lonesome. it seems like, if the force actually has a will and can decide to do things on it's own and it decides to create a person who will be 50% human and 50% pure force energy, it would probably be able to do a better job at not making one who will destroy the jedi order and bring darkness and tyranny to the entire galaxy for decades. it makes a lot more sense to think plaguis created anakin in order to create someone who would bring the sith to power, to me. unless we go with the theory that 'bringing balance to the force' literally means destroying the sith AND the jedi, or at least levelling the playing field between the two. that's what i originally thought, but i think it was debunked and lucas said it means destroying the sith.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by mojo » Sat May 21, 2011 11:42 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:we do specifically Lucas created the guy as palpy's master what Sidious was saying was a half truth designed to manipulate Anakins desperation it's more or less "true" in the sense that the guy existed though Anakin was very clearly a Vrigin birth by the force itself..I have no clue why fanboys try to claim Sidous was being forthcoming there but plagious and his Midichlorian master is canon and so much so that Lucas wants to keep a lid on the guys mystery to the extent that IIRC he absolutely wont allow EU writers to touch the guy at all and nixed numerous books on him
well that's pretty lame considering he's not doing any more movies. i've been waiting this whole time for a book featuring the guy to come out. especially considering how bad the second and third bane books were.

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