Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

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Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by 2046 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:35 am

General Donner wrote:The "general tech" bit in the EP2ICS does speak of a massive diversity of fuels and engine types. IIRC it says something along the lines of "most starships are powered by fusion reactors that contain more powerful hypermatter annihilation cores". So cartoon fuels aren't necessarily inconsistent to the point it becomes a contradiction.
Contradiction is irrelevant . . . the ICS/EU claims require proof themselves in the Lucas canon, proof they do not have.

And besides, the above quoted sort of reasoning gets so old when it's always the same sort of Matrix-esque contradiction-dodging based on wording twisted in the same way and same tech-inflationist direction.

I mean, most cars are powered by internal combustion engines, but that doesn't mean that a claim of antimatter-powered Volvos is not contradicted and is therefore true, which is the sort of fallacious reasoning they usually skirt or otherwise attempt to lead their readers toward.

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by General Donner » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:54 pm

2046 wrote:
General Donner wrote:The "general tech" bit in the EP2ICS does speak of a massive diversity of fuels and engine types. IIRC it says something along the lines of "most starships are powered by fusion reactors that contain more powerful hypermatter annihilation cores". So cartoon fuels aren't necessarily inconsistent to the point it becomes a contradiction.
Contradiction is irrelevant . . . the ICS/EU claims require proof themselves in the Lucas canon, proof they do not have.
That's not how I understand Lucasfilm canon. Don't they have that whole G>T>C>Whatever-Canon system that says everything is in unless contradicted by higher authorities?

But if you say no, I won't argue the point further. I really don't care enough about the debate in this day and age. But that's how I thought it was.

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:49 pm

You are right, LucasFilmLicensing do, but the main issue is that the ICS is C-Canon, while TCW is T-Canon, a higher Canon...

And RotS, showing us similar firepower as TCW is G-Canon, the highest level possible, but a lot of Warsies like to ignore that little fact because it destroys their conception of SW's superiority to ST...

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Picard » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:05 pm

And not to mention that WordOfLucas is WordOfGod when it comes to Star Wars, so everything Leland Chee and Co. say is irrelevant until confirmed by Lucas himself. And Lucas said that EU is not canon, so here we go...

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:42 pm

General Donner wrote:That's not how I understand Lucasfilm canon. Don't they have that whole G>T>C>Whatever-Canon system that says everything is in unless contradicted by higher authorities?
See "dual canons" on canonwars.com . . . I haven't updated with a lot of the TCW-related stuff, but suffice it to say that while Lucas Licensing has their canon for their works, Lucas himself has his idea of what Star Wars is, and to my mind the top dog and creator gets the final say.

He's certainly been trampling the EU of late with TCW . . .

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:08 am

General Donner wrote:[

That's not how I understand Lucasfilm canon. Don't they have that whole G>T>C>Whatever-Canon system that says everything is in unless contradicted by higher authorities?

But if you say no, I won't argue the point further. I really don't care enough about the debate in this day and age. But that's how I thought it was.
true but his own canon tree invalidates allot of the SWEU stuff not to mention theres a few instances of GL saying things like "i consider it a cool but different universe" or something...Picard and DS likely have the exact quote

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Picard » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:14 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:
General Donner wrote:[

That's not how I understand Lucasfilm canon. Don't they have that whole G>T>C>Whatever-Canon system that says everything is in unless contradicted by higher authorities?

But if you say no, I won't argue the point further. I really don't care enough about the debate in this day and age. But that's how I thought it was.
true but his own canon tree invalidates allot of the SWEU stuff not to mention theres a few instances of GL saying things like "i consider it a cool but different universe" or something...Picard and DS likely have the exact quote
Quotes, and lots of 'em.

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... canon.html

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:44 am

2046 wrote:
General Donner wrote:That's not how I understand Lucasfilm canon. Don't they have that whole G>T>C>Whatever-Canon system that says everything is in unless contradicted by higher authorities?
See "dual canons" on canonwars.com . . . I haven't updated with a lot of the TCW-related stuff, but suffice it to say that while Lucas Licensing has their canon for their works, Lucas himself has his idea of what Star Wars is, and to my mind the top dog and creator gets the final say.

He's certainly been trampling the EU of late with TCW . . .
While picking from the EU as well. Besides, isn't what he trampled some of Traviss' work, which even EUphiles seem to have issues with?

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by 2046 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:12 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2046 wrote:
General Donner wrote:That's not how I understand Lucasfilm canon. Don't they have that whole G>T>C>Whatever-Canon system that says everything is in unless contradicted by higher authorities?
See "dual canons" on canonwars.com . . . I haven't updated with a lot of the TCW-related stuff, but suffice it to say that while Lucas Licensing has their canon for their works, Lucas himself has his idea of what Star Wars is, and to my mind the top dog and creator gets the final say.

He's certainly been trampling the EU of late with TCW . . .
While picking from the EU as well. Besides, isn't what he trampled some of Traviss' work, which even EUphiles seem to have issues with?
I would say "allowing Filoni and Gilroy to have their way sometimes", rather than "picking from the EU". The way they describe it in their own words, they are constantly trying to get the EU in there as-is, with only limited success depending on whether what they bring him actually fits in with what he's wanting things to be for the show.

And yes, Traviss stuff got trampled regarding Mandalore, but then so has the work of many others, such as the folks who were involved in the EU versions of Ryloth and other such planets. A most recent episode needlessly trampled the continuity of one of the Coruscant Nights books, which from my understanding is a fairly well-liked series.

The Traviss example is simply one of the more well-known ones because (a) she was so heavily invested in that one planet and (b) she threw such a hissy-fit when Lucas exercised his rights to create overriding canon right on top of her work. Not to say it's an undeserved hissy-fit, given the misleading nature of the EU's official continuity policy that Licensing hands out, but still.

So no, the implication in your post that Lucas has somehow supported the EU by overriding it is not at all valid.

To get more from Filoni, check out the blog posts of his words here:

http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:31 am

2046 wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2046 wrote: See "dual canons" on canonwars.com . . . I haven't updated with a lot of the TCW-related stuff, but suffice it to say that while Lucas Licensing has their canon for their works, Lucas himself has his idea of what Star Wars is, and to my mind the top dog and creator gets the final say.

He's certainly been trampling the EU of late with TCW . . .
While picking from the EU as well. Besides, isn't what he trampled some of Traviss' work, which even EUphiles seem to have issues with?
I would say "allowing Filoni and Gilroy to have their way sometimes", rather than "picking from the EU". The way they describe it in their own words, they are constantly trying to get the EU in there as-is, with only limited success depending on whether what they bring him actually fits in with what he's wanting things to be for the show.

And yes, Traviss stuff got trampled regarding Mandalore, but then so has the work of many others, such as the folks who were involved in the EU versions of Ryloth and other such planets. A most recent episode needlessly trampled the continuity of one of the Coruscant Nights books, which from my understanding is a fairly well-liked series.

The Traviss example is simply one of the more well-known ones because (a) she was so heavily invested in that one planet and (b) she threw such a hissy-fit when Lucas exercised his rights to create overriding canon right on top of her work. Not to say it's an undeserved hissy-fit, given the misleading nature of the EU's official continuity policy that Licensing hands out, but still.

So no, the implication in your post that Lucas has somehow supported the EU by overriding it is not at all valid.
Actually, it is. The Holocron policy perfectly acknowledges that the higher canon has the final say. Nowhere the policy ever says that there are quotas or threshold in how far Lucas can trample the work of EU authors. Actually, they literally have a section of canon that is all non canon stuff, the bin canon, kind of the local trash collector. :)

From the perspective of that policy, what Lucas does is totally expected, even if brutal, and the fact that he does pick from the EU just reinforces the validity of the EU.
Lucas' game on words about his universe their universe is not sufficient to split matters.

Returning back to the threshold, there may be one that has more to do with the fans' own appreciation of the EU than some objective quantification of contradicted material.
Namely, the case of Boba Fett. Allowing him to die in the Sarlacc changes so many things about the past EU, that makes the EU a completely different story, because of how things happened from the moment Fett returned and started to interact with other factors of the universe and individuals.

However, on the other hand, I get the feeling that the way the Force and the time tables are described in SW, with the future always in motion, it's still possible to argue that certain events were meant to happen, so even if a whole section of the EU would disappear because we would have to account for the complete and final removal of Fett from the universe, at some point his presence matters little on certain events, and it's always possible to treat the return of Fett arc as a bump on the meant to happen chain of events, meaning that the further away we get from this arc, the more correct the depiction of events is, to the point where we finally return to a "stable" EU where the many of the other post ROTJ smaller or greater arcs will happen, with Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and so on. I think the timeline implicitly conveys a sense of flexibility.

But (because there's a but) the Holocron policy does not care about commentaries made by Lucas. It only cares about the work that's validated during the production of the movies and the movies themselves. It is immune to sort of loose commentaries that come like two decades later on the particular fate of some obscure second hand character with no face.

Same goes with Mandalore. I think the EU can rewrite itself, with more or less grace, to account for the changes made by Lucas.

The real problem is that Lucas keeps saying it's their universe, like if he was not responsible of their universe's existence, and acts like if he totally ignored that the "their" people actually had a rule to make "their" universe fit with Lucas'.
And let's be honest, fans getting into the EU thinking it's a legit extension of the movies, but suddenly realizing it does not even try to fit with the movies, could likely start to think why the hell I'm bothering with this then if it's meaningless to Lucas (and yet brings him money) and not meant to fit? Heck, to some, the EU without the impression that it's validated by Lucas is not as nice. Who could blame these people? Pretty much who barely ever heard about the EU and coming into it will think it's Star Wars' movies, but made larger and with more legit stuff. For fucking sake, it's written Star Wars on the goddamn cover! :)

It's this ridiculous schizophrenia and politely scornful approach to material that kept Lucas' universe alive for decades that can legitimately have EU authors get epically pissed off.

And if at least Lucas' recent additions to his universe were actually good, maybe it would feel less insulting. I mean, tomorrow he could put several references in a new TCWS episode that would completely erase the KOTOR era for the timeline, just to show who holds the leash. Let him do that. Just let's see him even try, considering how the KOTOR era is massively appreciated by SW fans. It's almost pathetic, he's maintaining a play wherein he acts as the lord master, but he has an unassumed fix on his slaves. Some of them, he can kill. Some others, he simply can't, and as such, the tables are definitely turned but he can't admit it. He also knows that the moment he backs off the franchise and let's other involved creators take the control of higher canon (TV, perhaps even theater movies), those guys will likely be fans and will do all their best to tie in the EU and new SW material.

Fat Lucas' act is truly pathetic, and it's time he does a Roddenberry and let the franchise live a life of its own.

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by 2046 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:42 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2046 wrote:So no, the implication in your post that Lucas has somehow supported the EU by overriding it is not at all valid.
Actually, it is. The Holocron policy
Bzzt. There's your problem right there. By framing it in terms of the EU's little continuity policy, you're putting the cart before the horse . . . literally.

The cart, tied on to and dragged about by the horse, can have all sorts of high-falutin' notions of what is and isn't so and in what direction things are and should be heading, but the merest diversion by the horse renders all such notions moot.

You are claiming that this only reinforces the validity of the cart's notions since they, at some points, reference the primacy of the horse. But that's silly. Said merest diversion which undoes, wholesale, vast portions of the cart's notions cannot reinforce those notions, and to claim otherwise is just strange.
From the perspective of that policy, what Lucas does is totally expected, even if brutal, and the fact that he does pick from the EU just reinforces the validity of the EU.
See, at least here you make a little more sense, by claiming that cherry-picking from the EU reinforces the EU, as opposed to your earlier argument that trampling the EU reinforces the EU.

However, you're cherry-picking as much as Lucas to do so, here, because you want to focus on the meaning of the Lucas cherry-picking while ignoring the meaning of the trampling.

Put simply, if I create a universe and let you write for it, but declare that nothing you write counts or means anything in any canon sense, then it is so.

And if I then also steal names and whatnot from your material, that doesn't mean that all or even any of your stuff has become valid. All that became valid is what I used, and it became valid only because I used it, effectively making it valid when I made it my-stuff-not-your-stuff. The rest remains as invalid as before, and its invalidity is made far more obvious by my trampling of it.
Namely, the case of Boba Fett. Allowing him to die in the Sarlacc changes so many things about the past EU, that makes the EU a completely different story, because of how things happened from the moment Fett returned and started to interact with other factors of the universe and individuals.

However, on the other hand, I get the feeling that the way the Force and the time tables are described in SW, with the future always in motion, it's still possible to argue that certain events were meant to happen, so even if a whole section of the EU would disappear because we would have to account for the complete and final removal of Fett from the universe, at some point his presence matters little on certain events, and it's always possible to treat the return of Fett arc as a bump on the meant to happen chain of events, meaning that the further away we get from this arc, the more correct the depiction of events is, to the point where we finally return to a "stable" EU where the many of the other post ROTJ smaller or greater arcs will happen, with Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and so on. I think the timeline implicitly conveys a sense of flexibility.
This makes absolutely no sense in any reasonable way.

It basically sounds like a convoluted attempt to argue that Fett's Lucas-canon death and EU-canon life is actually not a shocking display of disparate continuities, and this argument is made exclusively by use of claptrap, gobbledygook, and psychobabble designed to confuse and confound the reader so that, by the end of it, we're supposed to think that such flagrant displays are so unimportant as to be completely ignorable.

Sorry, my good man, but Fett's dead in one source and alive at the same time in another, and as if that weren't enough we're even explicitly told that those sources are in different universes. It's not circular reasoning you're sensing there . . . it's just facts reinforcing each other, the truth bouncing between them like a pinball caught between bumpers.
But (because there's a but) the Holocron policy does not care about commentaries made by Lucas. It only cares about the work that's validated during the production of the movies and the movies themselves. It is immune to sort of loose commentaries that come like two decades later on the particular fate of some obscure second hand character with no face.
Did you just attempt to slyly claim that the Holocron policy is immune to Lucas? The Holocron maintained by a guy who admitted dual continuities? And did you also make more of that Fett = Totally Unimportant argument by declaring him obscure, second-hand, and faceless?

Everybody knows Fett, chief . . . Fett took off as a character. That's why he was included in the prequels, and like 9000 EU books.

Anyway, while I do appreciate your mixture of "declare it unimportant" and "confuse them till they give up!" . . . they were mixed as well as any, though they were individually perhaps a little too obvious . . . I really don't see how it changes anything. Even if Lucas were to declare what was or wasn't canon in his universe to be based entirely on your ennui, that would still mean there was a his-universe.

Words and facts have meaning. I reject any argument which attempts to circumvent that truth.

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:42 am

Sigh. Is there a point to this gentlemen? Either split this canon debate off of this thread, and move it to the Evidence forum where it belongs, or bring it back on track with regards to Hypermatter being contradicted by the TCW.
-Mike

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:24 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Sigh. Is there a point to this gentlemen? Either split this canon debate off of this thread, and move it to the Evidence forum where it belongs, or bring it back on track with regards to Hypermatter being contradicted by the TCW.
-Mike
Well, mmm.... not sure if I'm going to open a whole new thread just for one post. So I'd rather post my reply here and make it final, no matter what. S'ry.

---------------------------------

My initial reply had more to do with pointing out the hypocrisy and quite disgusting way he handles his own little dominion. He doesn't need to add the insult to injury. If he wants to prove again and again that he's the lord creator of everything that is, why not just be totally original, instead of pouring salt and peeing into the wounds? I'm mainly reacting on his demeanour.

The best thing we have from Lucas about some reference to a clear canon policy is his vague waving about the Paramount policy. I can't remember him using the word canon in any definitive way. He's always weaseling out, never being firm. If he were honest, he'd have made the claim eons ago, and quickly replied by the negative or the positive if the EU is lower canon or not.

And as far as I know, Paramount didn't allow a second tier creature to exist and had said creature keep claiming that all it supervised and produced was canon, albeit to a lesser degree, alongside the higher tier products.
Lucas' ways are just twisted and sick, and I'd hate writing for such a fat lard, really. Because from the point of view of the EU, which is totally owned by Lucas, everything it deems canon is canon, and faithfully follows its oath of consistency as much as possible.
Lucas is doing something quite sadistic, in like he owns some dog and has it chained, and keeps making it salivating at some bone he doesn't throw, while asking the dog to make tricks and shouting to everyone that it's his pet, but he doesn't care if his dog is starving. The analogy isn't perfect cause the dog doesn't create anything, but the nauseating absurdity of both does stick out.

The trampling itself doesn't exactly validate the EU, but it doesn't automatically mean that if some bit of the EU is invalidated, then all of it is. Where is written? The EU's policy, which is much clearer than any vague comment Lucas made, is written like a code, a prophecy, as it will always adapt to maintain a consistency with the higher source. It acknowledges that it will always be the cart following the horse as best as it could.
This makes absolutely no sense in any reasonable way.

It basically sounds like a convoluted attempt to argue that Fett's Lucas-canon death and EU-canon life is actually not a shocking display of disparate continuities, and this argument is made exclusively by use of claptrap, gobbledygook, and psychobabble designed to confuse and confound the reader so that, by the end of it, we're supposed to think that such flagrant displays are so unimportant as to be completely ignorable.

Sorry, my good man, but Fett's dead in one source and alive at the same time in another, and as if that weren't enough we're even explicitly told that those sources are in different universes. It's not circular reasoning you're sensing there . . . it's just facts reinforcing each other, the truth bouncing between them like a pinball caught between bumpers.
It would just be a sneaky as Lucas' own salmonish stance on this. Plus for people used to time travel plots in SF, it's quite a simple concept to grasp, especially in an universe where it seems the Force follows some will and a roadmap, and will always try to get to point B from point A in the end, even if the route differs at some point.

But I agree, it's a completely unresolved situation. Sansweet tried to muddy waters back then with his talk about windows, and mentioned the Fett case but without ruling on it definitely (not to say that the canon hierarchy he used to follow has changed since then).
In all other cases, the EU does try to be faithful to the movies because that's what people consume as their SW entertainment, but clearly, the EU rejects the importance of any offhand comment made eons too late.

While technically, that could help identify dissociative continuities around that era post ROTJ, apparently neither fans nor LFL give a rat's arse about this obscure comment.
Perhaps instead of playing who's your daddy games, he should have vetoed the return of Fett from the beginning, or at least pointed out that there started an alternate continuity. But nope.
I'd be tempted to say too late George, you had your chance, but you clearly owe too much to the EU now to backpedal, and now you're only hurting your brand with those silly acts. You just have no respect for the work of other creative authors. He's just too happy having kids buy the juicy merchandising. Of course he'll never shoot down the entirety of the EU in some big, glaring and indisputable way.
Did you just attempt to slyly claim that the Holocron policy is immune to Lucas?
Yes. Why not? :)
If that were not the case, he'd have provided a clear cut answer to the canon question with a five words long reply. The fact that he cannot reject the whole of the EU means he is stuck with it, has to deal with it, and therefore his bastard child is part of his family, even if he doesn't like it.
Perhaps he should have been pro abortion from the get go (j/k).
The Holocron maintained by a guy who admitted dual continuities?
Did this guy ever say that the movie continuity was different from the greater EU one though?
Wasn't it just a way to identify the higher canon, as, you know, this is the movie continuity and we stick to it as our EU continuity encompasses all?
After all, when there's a hierarchy in canon, anyone can speak of a rank-centric continuity. Even more so that identifying a continuity doesn't automatically mean it's hermetic and not solvable into other continuities. :)
And did you also make more of that Fett = Totally Unimportant argument by declaring him obscure, second-hand, and faceless?
Unimportant? No. But I certainly pointed out that Publishing doesn't care, and I think no one on Earth except like twelve nerds give a shit either.
Frankly, the guy would probably get more respect for any little fart he let loose if he didn't act like a douchebag, really.
Everybody knows Fett, chief . . . Fett took off as a character. That's why he was included in the prequels, and like 9000 EU books.
Everyone knows Fett. My mom does. Few know about Lucas' own old quote though.
Anyway, while I do appreciate your mixture of "declare it unimportant" and "confuse them till they give up!" . . . they were mixed as well as any, though they were individually perhaps a little too obvious . . . I really don't see how it changes anything. Even if Lucas were to declare what was or wasn't canon in his universe to be based entirely on your ennui, that would still mean there was a his-universe.
Actually my ennui largely grows out of this silly double speak from His Lardy One. Contrary to what you think, if he had come out clearly on the question yeaaaars ago, nothing of that would have ever happened.
He didn't, serves him right. Unless he does something really stupid, he'll probably let his family exploit his franchise once he'll be in the grave, and I doubt his family will bother keeping on with his inane retarded dance. You can't even tell what is the true merchandising here. Is it the movies or the toys?

You did a good job with your canon website, but this has gone way beyond sanity and I'm tired of it. So as a final fuck off to his ludicrous ways and just because, even if logic fails, I'll ignore what he says because he doesn't really deserve it anymore. The guy who made the original SW probably died a long time ago, devoured from within by some parasitic lipidic Overload.
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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:50 am

wait, can some clarify why there's such a sudden black lash on Lucas? what did he do regarding karen traviss and the Mandalorians? what happened with Fett? did Lucas just arbitrarily declare "as far as I'm concerned he died in the sarlac" and just suddenly invalidate twenty five years of seriously major plot points?

basically can I has clarification?

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Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

Post by User1601 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:02 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:what happened with Fett? did Lucas just arbitrarily declare "as far as I'm concerned he died in the sarlac" and just suddenly invalidate twenty five years of seriously major plot points?
Matter of fact, he did... originally Fett was suppose to escape-- as shown in Jabba's palace where he's flirting with the girls, but his jetback is visibly damaged, supposedly by acid in the sarlacc (a filming-mistake, since he hadn't yet been there at this point).

But then George changed his mind, and killed Fett.... and the rest is history.

Part of the big backlash against this is probably from the Warsies, since the "Two Boba Fetts" is proof of the two SW universes, i.e. the Lucas Universe and the Expanded Universe.
And since Warsies have been known to actually stalk and harass writers who don't write the way they want (ala Cathy Bates in "Misery"), then one can imagine that George Lucas has reason to fear the rabid Warstards (picture Mike Wong breaking George's legs with a sledgehammer while screaming "HOW COULD YOU KILL BOBA FETT?") :D

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