EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

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2046
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EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by 2046 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:35 pm

For Breetai:
wait, can some clarify why there's such a sudden black lash on Lucas? what did he do regarding karen traviss and the Mandalorians? what happened with Fett? did Lucas just arbitrarily declare "as far as I'm concerned he died in the sarlac" and just suddenly invalidate twenty five years of seriously major plot points?

basically can I has clarification?
Okay, so basically Fett first appeared in a cartoon thing which was largely considered the only good part of an otherwise sucky made-for-TV Star Wars special. He was played up in publicity for TESB, but ended up with mostly a bit part. In the novelization he gets described as notorious, a superlative not granted to the other bounty hunters like Zuckuss, Dengar, or IG-88. And, his armor is said to have come from a group of evil warriors the Jedi defeated during the Clone Wars. From all this he got a following as the mysterious fellow who Vader and Jabba seemed to trust to get the job done and who could make an Imperial admiral shudder.

In a world of good versus evil, the mysterious Fett's apparent anti-Jedi history, and his ruthlessness, mixed with his seeming helpfulness in the cartoon, caused him to become the catch-all canvas.

But the truth is, he was simply the only significant human fighting character from the original trilogy days who wasn't really involved in the Jedi/Sith stuff.

So, he was generally portrayed as the renegade bounty hunter who lived by his own code and couldn't be moved or bought by either side. Which is really goofy, because he was always working for the badguys.

So anyway, Fett's popularity led to various attempts to write about him in the EU, leading to various continuity problems even before the prequels. They even managed to find a couple of different ways to extract him from the Sarlacc and let his adventures continue. Even Lucas, not oblivious to Fett's popularity, spoke of him when the Special Editions were coming out:

"I don't know why. [Laughs] I'm mystified by it. He is, he's a, I mean I think he's a, he's a mysterious character, he's a provocative character. He seems like an all powerful character, except he gets killed. Although he's gotten killed, the people who write the books, and everybody else, the comics, are all 'We cant kill him, we gotta bring him back!', you know, 'He can't die! We refuse to let him die!'"

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, 1997 - MTV interview as reposted in Boba Fett Fan Club site FAQ

"Lucas reconsidered going back and glamorizing the death of bounty hunter Boba Fett, a secondary character who became a cult favorite. He considered ”having Boba Fett survive and crawl out of the” mouth of the sand creature in Jedi. ”But that doesn't quite fit in the end.”"

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Sept. 2004, USA Today interview with Mike Snider
(Direct Link)

"In the case of Boba Fett's death, had I known he was gonna turn into such a popular character, I probably would've made it a little bit more exciting.

Boba Fett was just another one of the minions, another one of the bounty hunters and badguys. But, he became such a favorite of everybody's that, for having such a small part, uh he had a very large presence. And now that his history has been told in the first trilogy, y'know, it makes it even more of a misstep that we wouldn't make more out of the event of his defeat, because most people don't believe he died anyway.

I'd contemplated putting in that extra shot in where he climbs out of the hole, but y'know I figure that's . . . it doesn't quite fit, in the end."

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Sept. 2004, RoTJ DVD audio commentary (33:01)

And, of course, Fett was included in the prequels:

"Q: I'm excited that Boba Fett is going to be in Episode II. Are we going to get more details about how he was once Jaster Mereel and killed another Journeyman Protector on the planet Concord Dawn before becoming a bounty hunter?

A: Highly unlikely.

My advice: Forget everything you knew, or thought you knew about the origins of Boba Fett. While none of us have seen a script of Episode II or have an idea of the direction in which George Lucas is taking the character, it's fairly safe to say that he won't be held to any of the back stories that have arisen over the years to try to explain the roots of this strong, mostly silent type. If there is any hint of Fett's beginnings, it will be all George.

At the same time, what you've read to this point was probably misinformation anyhow. A bounty hunter like Boba Fett has much to gain by having numerous myths of his origin in circulation among potential employers and potential victims. That is why the Star Wars Encyclopedia states: ”Many tales are told of his background and exploits, but there are very few verifiable facts, perhaps by design.”

Fett's short career as a law enforcement officer on Concord Dawn, and his perhaps-unjust downfall, was first told in Tales of the Bounty Hunters. Dark Empire II speculates that he was formerly a stormtrooper who killed his commanding officer. The Marvel Comics series has Fett as an ex-Mandalorian commando, a veteran of the Clone Wars alongside Fenn Shysa and Tobbi Dala. Marvel even went as far as showing the lush jungles of the planet Mandalore.

As many fans know, when it comes to Star Wars knowledge, there are degrees of ”canon.” The only true canon are the films themselves. For years, Lucas Books has stayed clear of characters, events, or the timeframe that George might want to deal with in the Star Wars prequels. While such things as the Clone Wars, the fall of the Jedi, and Palpatine's rise to power were on that list, Boba Fett wasn't considered to be of major concern.

But like any great storyteller, George starts to develop a script and it sometimes takes on a life of its own, with characters coming to life and demanding a say. He has told us that Boba Fett will have a role in Episode II--just as Fett first appeared in the second film of the classic trilogy--so we may finally learn the bounty hunter's true genesis. As for whether Fett really survived his descent into the cavernous maw of the Sarlacc in Return of the Jedi...what do you think?"

- Steve Sansweet, LFL/Fan Relations, April 2000 - "Are we going to get more details about Boba Fett's past?", StarWars.com

That Marvel note above is the crux of the matter. By showing Mandalore, other ideas followed, and when eventually Karen Traviss came upon the scene she adopted the Mandalorians as her own, gave them a language, and worked to fully flesh out their planet and to play them up as a sort of third way between Jedi and Sith, with their own sense of honor and warrior ethic. And this resonated with many readers, who ate up her books and the unique Mando perspective on things.

(Meanwhile, of course, SDN types hate her since (a) they find her minimalist and (b) don't like her popularity . . . they are generally the type for whom success illicits loathing anyway. Thus a few of them hounded her online at any venue where she might be, leading to her description of them as "Talifans" ... the terrorists of the entertainment world who want authors to write things just their way and not for the rest of the fans or the authors or creators themselves.)

And then, to borrow from here, Lucas walked in and smacked down the jungle planet with farms idea and turned it into icy CubeWorld.

Having invested so much time and effort into fleshing out her Mandalorian ideas, Traviss was shocked that they were so easily ignored. After all, wasn't there continuity for such things? Well, yes, but only in Licensing's proverbial head . . . Lucas didn't care about their continuity, just his, and the two are distinct no matter how much retconning the EU attempts.

And thus, Mandalore became CubeWorld.

Traviss was suitably non-plussed:

"I've been receiving mail from Star Wars fans who have bought the new visual guide to the second season of the Clone Wars TV cartoon, and have been perplexed by detail in it. They've noticed changes in canon. They're mailing me to ask what's going on because it appears to affect areas that my novels deal with. I admit I didn't know there was a guide coming out this early, let alone what would be revealed in it. But now that it has, and you're asking me what's happened, it would be naive to stall you when you have the book in front in you, and pretty rude to ignore you.

I can't discuss the canon issues because of the standard non-disclosure agreement that all writers sign. I'm not even going to discuss the ones that are public now, and I know little of the full detail anyway. So please don't ask me. All I can say is that I was given enough of the detail in January to realise that changes in continuity were such that I wouldn't be able to carry on as originally planned with the storylines you were expecting to see continued in my books. It would have required a lot more than routine retcon.

The only solution I could think of that could accommodate the changes was a complete reboot, and I seriously considered doing that. But starting over, when I had so many other books on my plate? The knock-on effect on my other work was a problem, because most of my income doesn't come from Star Wars. And then there was the risk of alienating readers. Pulling the rug from under them after so many books - that wouldn't go down well, and "I was only following orders" doesn't appease anybody these days.

The canon is beyond my control, because that's the very nature of tie-in work. But that still left me with some personal choices I had to make. I could try to make the massive retcons. Or I could switch to different SW books that weren't affected by these changes. Or I could decide to call it a day - I had a great run, but I had an increasing amount of non-SW work to get on with that was more important to my business.

In the end, the only rational decision I could take was to make Imperial Commando #2 my last book for Star Wars. I'm sorry I had to do that [...] "

This led to some hissy-fits amongst Traviss/Mando fans.

So basically, Lucas garners hatred from EU-philes any time he tramples the EU. And in this case, he gets it from both sides, since of course the EU-philes who enjoy Traviss have lost her as a result of his TCW choices, and the Talifan EU-philes still have to watch their EU shafted at every Mandalorian turn, be it Fett or whatever.

And meanwhile, some dislike what he did with the Special Editions (Han shot first!), the rather clunky characterizations in the prequels, and so on.

But in any event, with success breeding contempt, Lucas is an easy target.

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:21 pm

2046 wrote:But in any event, with success breeding contempt, Lucas is an easy target.
Easier than ever.
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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by User1601 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:52 pm

2046 wrote:But in any event, with success breeding contempt, Lucas is an easy target.
More like "Misery loves company--" pun intended

Image
"HOW COULD YOU KILL BOBA FETT?!!!"

Warsies invoke the phrase "truth is stranger than fiction" in this regard... often to a scary extent-- even going so far as to stalk and harassing writers in eerily-reminescent fashion; and since Lucas crossed the most unbalanced Warsies of all, when he claimed that "the EU isn't canon," (particularly by doing so BY the death of Boba Fett in the movies, vs. the EU-- as shown at canonwars.com via "The Two Boba Fetts example" proving the EU separate from the G-canon), then Lucas basically did a swan-dive right into the role of James Caan in the above picture, to their Kathy Bates-- thousands and thousands of times over, since that's how many rabid Warsies and Fett-philes he crossed.

And without the EU, Star Wars is "Lost in Space--" literally-- when it comes to SW-vs. Trek discussions; so naturally the warsies lose what little mental stability they had, when he says it's not canon.

As the above website states, "EU Completism is logically unsupportable, requiring extensive intellectual dishonesty to maintain...."
...or obsessive insanity eroding the barrier between truth and fiction, typically evoking extreme responses when one crosses their fast-held delusions of grandeur by injecting reality.

As stated above regarding Karen Traviss:
Meanwhile, of course, SDN types hate her since (a) they find her minimalist and (b) don't like her popularity . . . they are generally the type for whom success illicits loathing anyway. Thus a few of them hounded her online at any venue where she might be, leading to her description of them as "Talifans" ... the terrorists of the entertainment world who want authors to write things just their way and not for the rest of the fans or the authors or creators themselves
And as we know, The Taliban is a rabid psycho CULT, addicted to an insane cause of domination, and destroying anyone who gets in their way... just like SDN.

Image
Last edited by User1601 on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:25 pm

SD,net people have actually reacted to Lucas with the same aggression they have to Travis? damn

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by User1601 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:45 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:SD,net people have actually reacted to Lucas with the same aggression they have to Travis? damn
No, not at all the same-- it's GOT to me much worse, since Lucas controls everything; but Traviss is just more vulnerable to their 9/11-style attacks. After all, Traviss is just a civilian in the game, while Lucas is king; but just like terrorists would obviously rather take out the supreme sovereign, they can't-- and so they bomb their targets according to whatever they can reach.

Meanwhile, cowards that they are, they simply twist everything George says in order to support their claims of EU Completism-- and even attack anyone who denies it.
They also twist any other words they can-- like those of Leland Chee-- and then attack those who deny the absurdity of the interpretation, as "thinking they know more than those who work most closely with Lucas!"

Ironically, this type of twisted logic is called a "Chewbacca Defense."

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:23 pm

from what mister O is describing Lucas reaction to both the writers and devoted fans and spacewizards comments regarding the talifans. It wouldn't surprise me if he does something like Cast Justin Timberlake as an Imperial Grand Admiral in that up coming live action tv series or David hasslehoff as a grand moff for a season villain, then do something like have an Imperial gunner say something like "but sir our main weapon batteries can only generate a hundred kilotons of fire per shot!!" just to troll the fanbase and Saxton

with the SDN type guys either completely loosing their minds and starting to harass him or trying to find some way to justify that (oh it was just bad writing or the gunner is an idiot defense)

in any case what else has GL taken a blow torch too?

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Khas » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:16 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:Cast Justin Timberlake as an Imperial Grand Admiral in that up coming live action tv series or David hasslehoff as a grand moff for a season villain,
Hey, I'd watch it if that were the case. SW meets Plan 9!

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:56 pm

SpaceWizard wrote:... when he claimed that "the EU isn't canon,"
I don't recall Lucas ever using the word canon about the EU in such a way even once.
Do you have a quote, out of interest?
And without the EU, Star Wars is "Lost in Space--" literally-- when it comes to SW-vs. Trek discussions; so naturally the warsies lose what little mental stability they had, when he says it's not canon.
Those claims are truly ludicrous. "Little mental stability"? like if they invested themselves beyond sanity into some fictional universe. Yet I read your posts and you don't strike me as boasting any kind of detachment that would give a right to make such broad attacks on an entire fandom.
...or obsessive insanity eroding the barrier between truth and fiction, typically evoking extreme responses when one crosses their fast-held delusions of grandeur by injecting reality.
This is ridiculous. You're making all of them look obsessive when you don't need to be so in order to have gripes against Lucas for the way he handles the franchise and gets your money into his pockets.
As stated above regarding Karen Traviss:
Meanwhile, of course, SDN types hate her since (a) they find her minimalist and (b) don't like her popularity . . . they are generally the type for whom success illicits loathing anyway. Thus a few of them hounded her online at any venue where she might be, leading to her description of them as "Talifans" ... the terrorists of the entertainment world who want authors to write things just their way and not for the rest of the fans or the authors or creators themselves
And as we know, The Taliban is a rabid psycho CULT, addicted to an insane cause of domination, and destroying anyone who gets in their way... just like SDN.

Image
Seriously... this is embarrassing now.

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Praeothmin » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:59 pm

What else did you truly expect of KSW, Mr. O.?

Seriously... :)

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:03 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:from what mister O is describing Lucas reaction to both the writers and devoted fans and spacewizards comments regarding the talifans. It wouldn't surprise me if he does something like Cast Justin Timberlake as an Imperial Grand Admiral in that up coming live action tv series or David hasslehoff as a grand moff for a season villain, then do something like have an Imperial gunner say something like "but sir our main weapon batteries can only generate a hundred kilotons of fire per shot!!" just to troll the fanbase and Saxton
Saxtonites don't represent the fanbase. Most SW fans, even EUphiles, don't really care about the numbers present in the ICS and similar nonsense.

Although he could write a piece of dialogue where on Republican captain says that even their most powerful batteries couldn't do X against a thing that is that big, with the "thing" being described as small on dialogue as well (in order to avoid the argument that the visuals in the show are silly).

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:12 pm

oh I'm aware they don't on the board I hailed from originally while we where vehemently anti wong allot of the members where of the KOTOR/comic fanbase (though it being an anime/comic based debate forum not sure how accurate the demographic is)

merely that it seems to me they are the loudest group and thus give the rest a bad name
Praeothmin wrote:What else did you truly expect of KSW, Mr. O.?

Seriously... :)
I was expecting that "yarg french gaiz!!" style melt down like one old thread I saw again it was at least more amusing than this.
Khas wrote:
Hey, I'd watch it if that were the case. SW meets Plan 9!
meh both are supposed to be pretty good actors but I can just imagine lucas going "Y'know kirk vs khan? yeah something like that..only your rival wont be a maverik captain but a jittery fish man on a flying lazy boy..so yeah.."

and I honestly can't tell if that'd be great television or a complete tragedy or both but I'd watch it I don't think you can turn away from something like that.

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:17 am

Wow!
I just read KSW's Chewbacca Defense link, and it basically describes KSW's very own debate style to a T...

Strange coincidence, since KSW accuses Warsies of doing the same thing.
Are you a Warsie in disguise, KSW?
Hhhhmmmm...

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by User1601 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:01 pm

To qualify: I'm referring strictly to the vs. debate, wherein pro-warsies will claim that the EU is canon, solely so that they can use all that in order to exagggerate the numbers even more than they already do.

It's just the "Bazillion Kontillion" cliche, over and over again.

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by Trinoya » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:06 pm

Wow!
I just read KSW's Chewbacca Defense link, and it basically describes KSW's very own debate style to a T...

Strange coincidence, since KSW accuses Warsies of doing the same thing.
Are you a Warsie in disguise, KSW?
Hhhhmmmm...

What do you have against the warsie crowd? They did nothing to be associated with KSW...


That said.. Hhhhmmmm indeed....

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Re: EU-Phile Lucas Hatred Background

Post by User1601 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:35 pm

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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