"Fan math"

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Praeothmin
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Re: "Fan math"

Post by Praeothmin » Wed May 18, 2011 8:03 pm

As Kor said, SWST, for a guy who hasn't the time to respond to all the arguments, you sure post a lot, and you sure have sufficient time to read all of MW's work and then repost it here...

And you still haven't rebutted my TESB shield argument, which was at most 20 lines long...

And I would point to the fact that Breetai got a warning for his behavior proof we do not approve...

StarWarsStarTrek
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Re: "Fan math"

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Wed May 18, 2011 9:19 pm

Link me please to this 20 line long argument of yours.

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Re: "Fan math"

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed May 18, 2011 10:02 pm

He's refering this one, which you should be well aware of since it was in a thread started by you. The "Star Wars and Star Trek Shields" one to be precise.

Praeothmin wrote:Getting 450 GT based on TESB asteroid scene is pure BS.
While the book says "multi MT mines", the movies show us an entirely different scenario, SWST.
most of the asteroids we see are around the size of the MF, or smaller.
The slow speed they have (no more than a few km/s), their low mass (no more than a couple of tons) and the fact they explode when hitting each other means that most of them do not impact with anything near multi-MT...

The most massive asteroid we see hit, and destroy an ISD's bridge, hits at most with around 6 MT of Kinetic Energy:
If asteroid is 100m in diameter, volume = 523 600 m³ or 5.2360e+5
If Pure Iron, mass is = 7870 kg/m³ X 523 600 m³ = 4 120 732 000 kg
If going at 3.5km/s (very high end speed estimate), KE is = 25 239 483 500 000 000J or 6.03 MT.
That is, IF the Hoth asteroids did not have a tendency to explode on contact...

So the smaller asteroids hitting shields for an entire day would not even create KT impacts, so tanking them is nothing exceptional...
And I agree with Praeo and Kor when they say:
Praeothmin wrote:As Kor said, SWST, for a guy who hasn't the time to respond to all the arguments, you sure post a lot, and you sure have sufficient time to read all of MW's work and then repost it here...
The points about "fan math" still stands and it's unreliability given the biased assumptions made by both sides. If you'd bothered to read my rebuttals in your above-mentioned thread, you'd understand exactly what everyone is saying.
-Mike

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Re: "Fan math"

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Tue May 24, 2011 9:31 pm

We see only a few asteroids hit the ISD. There are plenty of other HUGE asteroids floating around that we saw in the asteroid belt. Therefore, RODV is not contradicted.

Admiral Breetai
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Re: "Fan math"

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue May 24, 2011 11:16 pm

really hit the ISD? really? cause that didn't seem to happen in the films

Praeothmin
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Re: "Fan math"

Post by Praeothmin » Wed May 25, 2011 2:11 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:We see only a few asteroids hit the ISD. There are plenty of other HUGE asteroids floating around that we saw in the asteroid belt. Therefore, RODV is not contradicted.
How huge were they?
I've given you a size unit, and calculations as to the possible power this asteroid would have IF, and it's a very, very big IF, the asteroids in the Hoth fields were not auto-exploding, as seen here at 8:50, which kinda puts a cap on their energy potential...

User1627
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Re: "Fan math"

Post by User1627 » Wed May 25, 2011 3:27 am

Praeothmin wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
2046 wrote: Calculations are not dismissed out of hand for being calculations . . . they're dismissed and dismissable when they are based on false assumptions.
And guess what? Breentai has been doing exactly that: dismissing calculations because they are "fan speculation".

He does not explain HOW they are wrong, he merely says "all I see is fan speculation" and leaves it at that, in response to a long post involving math/science.

It is nice that some debaters here have stated that this is not what you are supposed to be doing, but most are still skimming over to Breentai's side, and those who are not are highly sympathetic to him.

Apparently, somebody saying "all I see is fan speculation" to a long, hard thought out calculation is completely acceptable here...as long, of course, as it is a pro Trek debater.

If I were to do that, I would get a warning right away, no doubt.
No, what Breetai is doing is ignoring your requests for evidence since you ignore so much evidence yourself.
And what you ignore is all the evidence brought against your case by Kor, Mike D and even Breetai himself as to why the calcs made by Wong are wrong, especially in the shields thread.
And you've completely ignored my rebuttals of the bullshit that are the 450 GT shields for an ISD...

So when you actually address rebuttals and counter-evidence to MW's false representations, then you will be in a position to whine about calcs being ignored or refused simply because they are Wong's...
I'd love to ask how old you are, but unfortunately I know you can't count that high.

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Re: "Fan math"

Post by User2531 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:32 am

"fan math" or "calculations" of sort seem to suppliment debates in a sense, and in battles of inorganic machines and the like they hold some weight and the like, but still whether in fictional debates and even RL situations, calculations should be ranged, especially in fiction due to inconsistencies, as ranged calculations provide a general 'idea'; trying to get too specific just distracts you from the author/artists 'sway' (granted their are occasionally exceptions, but even then calculations seem supplimmentary). just observe how the characters and whatnot are portrayed in the canon sources, maybe then you'll feel the author/artists sway

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Re: "Fan math"

Post by Picard » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:29 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:We see only a few asteroids hit the ISD. There are plenty of other HUGE asteroids floating around that we saw in the asteroid belt. Therefore, RODV is not contradicted.
How huge were they?
I've given you a size unit, and calculations as to the possible power this asteroid would have IF, and it's a very, very big IF, the asteroids in the Hoth fields were not auto-exploding, as seen here at 8:50, which kinda puts a cap on their energy potential...
Oh, there were some Mars-sized asteroids floating around, and Executor rammed throught at least one of them, it's just that we didn't see them...

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Re: "Fan math"

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:40 pm

mejia wrote:"fan math" or "calculations" of sort seem to suppliment debates in a sense, and in battles of inorganic machines and the like they hold some weight and the like, but still whether in fictional debates and even RL situations, calculations should be ranged, especially in fiction due to inconsistencies, as ranged calculations provide a general 'idea'; trying to get too specific just distracts you from the author/artists 'sway' (granted their are occasionally exceptions, but even then calculations seem supplimmentary). just observe how the characters and whatnot are portrayed in the canon sources, maybe then you'll feel the author/artists sway
The colour. It burns me eyes.

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