What does LFL keep straight between canons?

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User1462
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What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by User1462 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:18 pm

In order to consider something consistent with G-canon, it has to be coordinated with it somehow.
My question, is what do they coordinate? EU canon is limited to that, the rest is non-canon.
We have to decide what gets coordinated, otherwise if we don't know then we must assume it is not canon.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:54 pm

That's why Lucas Film Licensing had Leland Chee create the Canon policy, with G, T and C Canon...

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by The Dude » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:40 pm

Do you own a firearm? If so, lock it up and give someone the key, lest you be driven mad trying to decipher things.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by User1462 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:14 am

What do you mean?
Praeothmin wrote:That's why Lucas Film Licensing had Leland Chee create the Canon policy, with G, T and C Canon...
Then only G-canon is valid for the purposes of discussion.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by The Dude » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:47 am

Thats exactly what I mean. You say G canon is only valid for discussion. Other folks round the net say that the EU is valid to discuss along with G and others like myself feel that some form of authors intent enters into it.

Reconciling all that and trying to convince folks of it seems to drive folks raving mad.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by User1462 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:07 am

The Dude wrote:Thats exactly what I mean. You say G canon is only valid for discussion. Other folks round the net say that the EU is valid to discuss along with G and others like myself feel that some form of authors intent enters into it.

Reconciling all that and trying to convince folks of it seems to drive folks raving mad.
You're saying they weren't already? :D

It's clear to me: you said it yourself, it can't be valid if the original author (i.e. George Lucas) doesn't intend it. How could it be? He can't say "I intend whatever Joe Blow writes," if he hasn't read it.
So it's simple enough, if you have different authors, you have different canons.

So there's no reason to presume that anything from the EU is in accord with the G-canon, without proof from the G-canon. So there's no valid "presumption of canonicity," like the EU Completists claim.

Let me dig out some things from Canonwars.com:
LUCAS: I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Aug. 2005 - "New Hopes" interview in Starlog #337
Leland Chee, 2006 at StarWars.Com:

"The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving. It remains elastic until it gets committed to film or another official source. Even then, we know there's always room for change.
[...] Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity."

- Sue Rostoni, Lucas Licensing (LLP Managing Editor), Sept. 2005 - StarWars.com forum post:

"Within the issue of Starlog magazine with the War of the Worlds cover is an interview article with George Lucas. He stated something which he had said before, which is that he doesn't follow the SW EU, he doesn't read the books or comics. He also said that when they started doing all this (which is allowing other storytellers to tell their own SW tales), he had decreed that the Star Wars Universe would be split into two just like Star Trek (I don't know nuts about Star Trek, so don't ask me about that), one would be his own universe (the six episode movie saga), the other would be a whole other universe (the Expanded Universe). He continued to say that the EU tries as much as possible to tie in to his own universe, but sometimes they move into a whole other line of their own.”
So this is a "READ... MY...LIPS" testimony that like Star Trek books, the EU books are not valid as part of the live-action universe.

Of course all the proof in the world won’t stop EU Completists from putting their own spin on various cherry-picked quotes, and then accusing anyone who disagrees of “think they know more than Lucas and those who work with him most closely.” This is pure megalomania to put words in the original sources' mouths and then claiming it to be original, but that’s how the EU Completist “anything goes” strategy.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:44 am

This topic is moved to the Evidence Forum since it is a discussion on canon, not on in-universe technological or political issues.
-Mike

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:11 pm

UniveralNetguru wrote:It's clear to me: you said it yourself, it can't be valid if the original author (i.e. George Lucas) doesn't intend it.
Then T-Canon is also valid, since GL himself told the directors and other producers of TCW that it continues the stories from the movies, and thus is part of the movie mythos, even though it's on tv.
Dave Filoni, in the TCW "making of" stated that GL is part of every story devellopment, and he brings a lot of ideas himself, and they are not suggestions, as Filoni puts it.
So GL is a involved in TCW as he was in TESB: He doesn't direct, he doesn't write the stories, but he decides what we see and who we see, how it happens and where.
So TCW is also GL's baby, and it follows his "vision" of SW, just as the movies.
When he also uses names form the EU, this validates the parts of the EU attached to the names being used...

I like it when people say that GL, the absolute control freak over his pet property, has nothing at all to do with the EU, especially when all hi collaborators, producers and authors always talk about George approving this, or vetoing that.
Everytime there's a "making of" somewhere, GL is mentioned as having been an important part of the project.
So while I'm sure he hasn't read many SW novels out there, I'm pretty sure he knows what's in the EU...
Last edited by Praeothmin on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by The Dude » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:34 pm

Yeah thats more in line with what I think of as "authors intent" rather then a strict G canon only. So I'm willing to entertain that stuff from the EU is valid, hell theres things from G canon I discard, like Greedo shooting first or those dumbass rings when the DS goes up.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by Picard » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:40 pm

Praeothmin wrote:When he also uses names form the EU, this validates the parts of the EU attached to the names being used...
No, it does not. It only validates names themselves, and maybe objects directly connected to names, but not parts of EU. He validated Coruscant, both name and planet itself, for example, but does that mean every EU novel that uses name Coruscant or has part of it on Coruscant is valid? I think not.

As for television series' being canon, I think they are canon.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:36 pm

So let me get this straight:
By using Coruscant, and making it a planet-city, as it was in the EU, he doesn't validate what was said of Coruscant?

Ok, you believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want...
Thanks.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by User1462 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:09 pm

That's not debating, it's wanking.
Coruscant exists in the G-canon, because it was shown in the G-canon; however there's no logic in claiming that every EU-wank regarding Coruscant therefore exists in the G-canon as well!
That's why Lucas said it's 2 universes: i.e. the G-universe Coruscant, and the E-Universe corsuscant which has planetary shields.
Praeothmin wrote:
UniveralNetguru wrote:It's clear to me: you said it yourself, it can't be valid if the original author (i.e. George Lucas) doesn't intend it.
Then T-Canon is also valid, since GL himself told the directors and other producers of TCW that it continues the stories from the movies, and thus is part of the movie mythos, even though it's on tv.
That's called a "false contrapositive."
Continuation by the T-canon, does not imply continuity within the G-canon. In other words, RotS does not subsume the events or stats of TCW movie or series, it's a different universe still... thank God.
Last edited by User1462 on Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by The Dude » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:43 pm

And round and round we go, where it stops, no one knows!

Its ridiculous that after a decade and change that there isn't a consensus on canon.

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by User1462 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:05 pm

The Dude wrote:And round and round we go, where it stops, no one knows!

Its ridiculous that after a decade and change that there isn't a consensus on canon.
There is never consensus among crooks. Read the following:
]LUCAS: I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Aug. 2005 - "New Hopes" interview in Starlog #337
Leland Chee, 2006 at StarWars.Com:
"The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving. It remains elastic until it gets committed to film or another official source. Even then, we know there's always room for change.
[...] Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity."

- Sue Rostoni, Lucas Licensing (LLP Managing Editor), Sept. 2005 - StarWars.com forum post:

"Within the issue of Starlog magazine with the War of the Worlds cover is an interview article with George Lucas. He stated something which he had said before, which is that he doesn't follow the SW EU, he doesn't read the books or comics. He also said that when they started doing all this (which is allowing other storytellers to tell their own SW tales), he had decreed that the Star Wars Universe would be split into two just like Star Trek (I don't know nuts about Star Trek, so don't ask me about that), one would be his own universe (the six episode movie saga), the other would be a whole other universe (the Expanded Universe). He continued to say that the EU tries as much as possible to tie in to his own universe, but sometimes they move into a whole other line of their own.”
Of course, the EU-completists (i.e. warsie-wankers) will read the following from this:

LUCAS: ...I do try to keep it consistent...


Leland Chee: "The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and [...] Anything not in the current version of the films ...."


Sue Rostoni, Lucas Licensing (LLP Managing Editor), Sept. 2005 - StarWars.com forum post:
"Within the issue of Starlog magazine with the War of the Worlds cover is an interview article with George Lucas. He stated ...that the EU tries as much as possible to tie in to his own universe....”
All the proof in the world won’t stop EU Completists from putting their own spin on various cherry-picked quotes, and then sneeringly accuse anyone who disagrees of “daring to think they know more than Lucas and those who work with him most closely.”
They can't handle the truth, because they don't want the truth-- they want to live in their own little wank-world, and anyone who mentions the facts will get flamed back to the stone-age as the chimps hurl their excrement at intruders to their monkey-house.

That's why they're so rabid and shrill about including the books, while Trekkies couldn't care less if one includes ST novels in the canon or not-- mainly since the films prove that ST could kick warsie-butt across the universe :D

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Re: What does LFL keep straight between canons?

Post by Lucky » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:53 pm

Praeothmin wrote:So let me get this straight:
By using Coruscant, and making it a planet-city, as it was in the EU, he doesn't validate what was said of Coruscant?

Ok, you believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want...
Thanks.
The only non-EU things are the things shown in G and T levels of canon.

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