What's accepted SW canon?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by The Dude » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:55 pm

So ST gets Genesis even though Carol Marcus wiped the data banks and the only functional device died with Khan?

How does that work?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by User1462 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:39 am

The Dude wrote:So ST gets Genesis even though Carol Marcus wiped the data banks and the only functional device died with Khan?

How does that work?
It was state-of-the-art Federation technology, not some once-in-a-lifetime secret.
Nothing inimicable.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:46 am

The Dude wrote:So ST gets Genesis even though Carol Marcus wiped the data banks and the only functional device died with Khan?

How does that work?
The data banks of the space station were wiped.

But is there any reason to assume that they didn't make any copies and took these with them?

Is it plausible that, as they obviously thought that their hide out in the Genesis cave was safe enough to take the prototype with them, that they wouldn't take its construction data with them too?

And isn't it a fact that we saw more than only the prototype in the Genesis cave? As far as I can remember, there were things that could have been and resembled storage devices too.

In my opinion, it does not make sense to assume that the only thing they saved from the Genesis project would be the prototype but no other data. It seems to me so implausible that the burden of proof lies at those who are claiming exactly that.

And, although it may not be canon, the novelization of the third movie confirms my opinion. Before flying back to Earth, the Enterprise stopped at the Regula planetoid, retrieved the data devices and brought them back to Earth where they were confiscated.


Praeothmin wrote:And those same people then give the Federation things like the Genesis device, even though it was never heard from or seen after TWoK.
Same thing with Transphasic torpedoes and armor: while the Feds do have the technology, they never, ever used it, even when it would have been necessary...
[sarcasm]

That objection is so plausible because it is unheard of that the Federation makes treaties which are prohibiting the development and usage of certain technologies.

The treaty of Algeron which prohibits the development and usage of cloaking technology, the Khitomer Accords which prohibits the development and usage of subspace-weapons, the temporal accords which prohibits to change the time line or the outlawing of metagenic weapons.

All bad dreams and that's why it doesn't make sense to assume that the genesis technology would be forbidden because it is so harmless or that technology from the future is confiscated by the Department of Temporal Investigations.

And of course, during the Dominion War, it was not necessary to use the one or other above mentioned technology. Therefore we can conclude that, if it were necessary, the Federation would use such technology.

[/sarcasm]

I think the correct question is what situation would be necessary for the Federation to use such technology. Maybe an extragalactic invader who has no scruple to destroy whole planets and who is not party of any of the above mentioned treaties?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Lucky » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:59 pm

WILGA wrote:The data banks of the space station were wiped.

But is there any reason to assume that they didn't make any copies and took these with them?

Is it plausible that, as they obviously thought that their hide out in the Genesis cave was safe enough to take the prototype with them, that they wouldn't take its construction data with them too?

And isn't it a fact that we saw more than only the prototype in the Genesis cave? As far as I can remember, there were things that could have been and resembled storage devices too.

In my opinion, it does not make sense to assume that the only thing they saved from the Genesis project would be the prototype but no other data. It seems to me so implausible that the burden of proof lies at those who are claiming exactly that.

And, although it may not be canon, the novelization of the third movie confirms my opinion. Before flying back to Earth, the Enterprise stopped at the Regula planetoid, retrieved the data devices and brought them back to Earth where they were confiscated.
Isn't there some episode in DS9 that the writers said the UFP was using terraforming tech based on the Genesis device?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:21 pm

UniveralNetguru wrote:endless-fanwank known as the Expanded Universe
Except it's not as much a fan-wank as you would have it, because it also includes Darksaber, with low KT yields, and many examples of very, very slow FTL...
More like IT'S ...NOT....CANON.
Actually, it is, it is C-Canon.
What directly comes from GL is G and T Canon, and the rest is C-Canon, but it's still part of what LFL, a Lucas owned company, calls Canon... :)
Doesn't matter, it's film-canon.
Nope.
What IS film-Canon is that they invented it, it exists, but they NEVER, EVER, EVER used it after TWoK, even during the war with the Founders...
So while they may have had the original Technology,they NEVER USE IT, so anyone giving it to the Feds in a vs debate is "cheating", and not following Canon...
More like Transphasic torpedoes and bat-armor were introduced in "Endgame," and that was the latest-year installment of "Star Trek" ever seen (before Star Trek 2009)
Nope, Nemesis came out a year later, so they could have put it on the Ship if they had it, but they didn't, so again, anyone giving it to the Feds is cheating and being dishonest...
Now they have RED MATTER! BWAHAHAHHAHHAHAA!
Which they only used to attack Shinzon in the alternate Trek Universe, not in the regular one...
It was state-of-the-art Federation technology, not some once-in-a-lifetime secret.
Nothing inimicable.
Then why was it never used, for example, against the Borg, or in the Dominion War?
If you say "Because it's not the way of the Federation", then having the Feds use it against the Empire is hypocritical, because it would go against the Feds' way of thinking...
WILGA wrote:But is there any reason to assume that they didn't make any copies and took these with them?
It is reasonable to assume indeed...
Maybe an extragalactic invader who has no scruple to destroy whole planets and who is not party of any of the above mentioned treaties?
Really?
And an invader from another Quadrant, hell-bent on destroying you, which you barely beat due to the assistance of the Prophets, they don't count?
Heck, just firing 1 Genesis torpedoe in the midst of a Dominion fleet would have obliterated them, and made the Federation win much faster, thus saving millions of lives...
So why was it not used?
You see, the Federation signs to treaties which take away all their super toys (Cloaks, while Romulans and Klingons keep theirs, for example) because they don't go around destroying everything, even when it would warrant it...
They defend themselves, but they don't provoke attacks.
They prefer negociations before using force.
And, aside from Sisko's use of Trilithium resin, they don't render entire worlds uninhabitable just because it's under an enemy's rule...

Oh, and movie SW still has the DS, which destroys worlds easily...
Lucky wrote:Isn't there some episode in DS9 that the writers said the UFP was using terraforming tech based on the Genesis device?
I believe the tech was based off of it, you're right.
But it wasn't used as a weapon...
Last edited by Praeothmin on Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:40 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
WILGA wrote:Maybe an extragalactic invader who has no scruple to destroy whole planets and who is not party of any of the above mentioned treaties?
Really?
And an invader from another Quadrant, hell-bent on destroying you, which you barely beat due to the assistance of the Prophets, they don't count?
Maybe not when they are allied with a local force and thus subjected to said treaties?
Praeothmin wrote:Heck, just firing 1 Genesis torpedoe in the midst of a Dominion fleet would have obliterated them, and made the Federation win much faster, thus saving millions of lives...
So why was it not used?
  1. There were Cardassians too.
  2. The Genesis torpedo is not designed to transform fleets.
  3. As you could see in TWOK, it is possible to escape the Genesis wave with warp.
Praeothmin wrote:You see, the Federation signs to treaties which take away all their super toys (Cloaks, while Romulans and Klingons keep theirs, for example) because they don't go around destroying everything, even when it would warrant it...
As far as you know, that applies only to cloaking devices.
That does not apply to subspace-weapons or metagenetic weapons or time travel or ...
Praeothmin wrote:They defend themselves, but they don't provoke attacks.
They prefer negociations before using force.
And, aside from Sisko's use of Trilithium resin, they don't render entire worlds uninhabitable just because it's under an enemy's rule...
Exactly - what is your point?

That they couldn't use such tactics to defend themselves in a war of destruction against the Empire or that they would be unwilling to use such tactics as a last resort?
Praeothmin wrote:Oh, and movie SW still has the DS, which destroys worlds easily...
No, both were destroyed.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Picard » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:56 pm

Only canon are:
-movies
-novelizations
-TV series
-radio dramas
-scripts
George Lucas wrote:“There are two worlds here,” explained Lucas. “There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe.”"

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, July 2002 - as reported on the Cinescape site, from Cinescape Magazine
George Lucas wrote:STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
George Lucas wrote:TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"

LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"

TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?" LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:23 pm

WILGA wrote:Maybe not when they are allied with a local force and thus subjected to said treaties?
Yeah, sure:
Feds: "Hey guys, I know we are getting our asses kicked, but we have the nice Genesis Torpedo which could blow these guys away in an instant and save millions of lives. What do you say?"
Allies: "No, you are under treaty not to devellop or use the technology!"
Feds: "But it would also save you and we would not use it after!"
Allies: "No!"

Not very logical...
As you could see in TWOK, it is possible to escape the Genesis wave with warp.
The wave, yes, but remember they were a few thousand km away from the explosion itself, and only outran the wave at Warp because the distance from the explosion gave them time to engage the Warp engines.
They would not have that time if the Torpedo was detonated in the middle of the fleet...
While the wave wasn't designed to transform ships, it could very well destroy them, or else Kirk had no reason to run away from it...
As far as you know, that applies only to cloaking devices.
That does not apply to subspace-weapons or metagenetic weapons or time travel or ...
Then why did the Federation not use a time-travel weapon to go back in time with the Dominion attack information and make their war a lot easier, if they have these weapons?
Is it because the Federation is dumb?
And if it is, then are we not cheating by giving the Empire its incompetent Stormtroopers but making the Federation intelligent in its super weapon use?
That they couldn't use such tactics to defend themselves in a war of destruction against the Empire or that they would be unwilling to use such tactics as a last resort?
That whatever the reason is (either they can't or they won't), we've never seen the Federation use these super-weapons even in a hopeless war (the Dominion War was pretty hopeless in the beginning, so hopeless in fact that Sisko risked alienating the romulans by planning a coup to rally them to the Federation's cause)...
No, both were destroyed.
The first one by a Force user, the other one again by the actions of this Force user...
And the first DS had blown up Alderaan before its destruction...
And in both cases, the Rebels had the plans for the DS and of their weaknesses...

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by sonofccn » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:38 pm

Praeothmin wrote:The first one by a Force user, the other one again by the actions of this Force user...
Please forgive me but Luke didn't blow up the second DS2. While the whole Vader/Emperor debacle might be more important in the larger picture the second death star was taken out by rebel commandos/teddy bears and the Rebel fleet.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:34 pm

Let's just say that Luke's actions helped the Rebels in that they took Palpatine's and Vader's attention away from what was happening on Endor? ;)

Truth be told though, the second DS was still only destroyed because Palpatine had leaked info, and it was unfinished, thus unprotected from fighters going in...

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:42 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
WILGA wrote:Maybe not when they are allied with a local force and thus subjected to said treaties?
Yeah, sure:
Feds: "Hey guys, I know we are getting our asses kicked, but we have the nice Genesis Torpedo which could blow these guys away in an instant and save millions of lives. What do you say?"
Allies: "No, you are under treaty not to devellop or use the technology!"
Feds: "But it would also save you and we would not use it after!"
Allies: "No!"

Not very logical...
Humans are not very logical.

Hitler had more than enough chemical weapons. And yet they were never used in WWII.

"No state shall, during war, permit such acts of hostility which would make mutual confidence in the subsequent peace impossible: such are the employment of assassins (percussores), poisoners (venefici), breach of capitulation, and incitement to treason (perduellio) in the opposing state"
Praeothmin wrote:
As you could see in TWOK, it is possible to escape the Genesis wave with warp.
The wave, yes, but remember they were a few thousand km away from the explosion itself, and only outran the wave at Warp because the distance from the explosion gave them time to engage the Warp engines.
They would not have that time if the Torpedo was detonated in the middle of the fleet...
While the wave wasn't designed to transform ships, it could very well destroy them, or else Kirk had no reason to run away from it...
Of course, the Genesis wave could have destroyed the Enterprise. That's why Kirk run away from it. But the important fact is, that he could run away from it. And a fleet, at which a Genesis torpedo is fired, could run away from the Genesis wave too.
Praeothmin wrote:
As far as you know, that applies only to cloaking devices.
That does not apply to subspace-weapons or metagenetic weapons or time travel or ...
Then why did the Federation not use a time-travel weapon to go back in time with the Dominion attack information and make their war a lot easier, if they have these weapons?
Is it because the Federation is dumb?
And if it is, then are we not cheating by giving the Empire its incompetent Stormtroopers but making the Federation intelligent in its super weapon use?
As I have said, there are things that are not easily done. While there was the chance that the Federation could loose the war, it was always only that. Not enough for desperate measures.
Praeothmin wrote:
That they couldn't use such tactics to defend themselves in a war of destruction against the Empire or that they would be unwilling to use such tactics as a last resort?
That whatever the reason is (either they can't or they won't), we've never seen the Federation use these super-weapons even in a hopeless war (the Dominion War was pretty hopeless in the beginning, so hopeless in fact that Sisko risked alienating the romulans by planning a coup to rally them to the Federation's cause)...
desperate times need desperate measures
Maybe they decide to not use such possibilities. It probably depends on what they expect from the Empire should it win. If a victory of the Empire means death in any case, the Federation has nothing to loose.

Praeothmin wrote:
No, both were destroyed.
The first one by a Force user, the other one again by the actions of this Force user...
And the first DS had blown up Alderaan before its destruction...
And in both cases, the Rebels had the plans for the DS and of their weaknesses...
Yes, but that means that they do not exist any more.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:39 pm

WILGA wrote:Hitler had more than enough chemical weapons. And yet they were never used in WWII.
And Hilter was crazy, and the ultimate decision maker in the German Forces.
Are you telling me that the entire Starfleet brass are idiots and/or crazy?
Of course, the Genesis wave could have destroyed the Enterprise. That's why Kirk run away from it. But the important fact is, that he could run away from it. And a fleet, at which a Genesis torpedo is fired, could run away from the Genesis wave too.
Read what I write, please:
The original explosion which created the Genesis wave was powerful enough that it could destroy the vessels it explodes next to.
The wave is a by-product of the explosion, which can be out-run, but only by someone who knows what to expect.
A torpedo fired at the center of a fleet may not be run-from, and once the torpedo explodes, then most vessels get hit...
The first use of a Genesis Torpedo in the Dominion war wouldhave been devastating for the Dominion...
Or the use of Time-travel, which the Feds never did...
While there was the chance that the Federation could loose the war, it was always only that.
Actually, it was going very bad for the Federation.
They were losing more than they were winning, and before the intervention of the Prophets, they were going to lose the war...
That's pretty much a good enough reason to take out the big guns, wouldn't you say?
If a victory of the Empire means death in any case, the Federation has nothing to loose.
You mean like the time in the Dominion War they were so desperate they asked the Prophets to help?
Like the time Risa got decimated?
Like when Betazed got attacked?
You mean like these times, where only the intervention of super-beings helped them stave off defeat a bit?
Yes, but that means that they do not exist any more.
But they were not destroyed by the Federation, but by Rebels who had plans of the battle station, a Force sensitive youth to destroy the first one (where the Force allowed him to turn a slim chance into victory), and an incomplete second one, which was only destroyed because the Emperor lured the Rebels in a trap, which would, again, not be the case for the Federation...
So against the Federation, we either have the DS or the DS II...

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Lucky » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:38 am

Praeothmin wrote:The first use of a Genesis Torpedo in the Dominion war wouldhave been devastating for the Dominion...
Or the use of Time-travel, which the Feds never did...
Actually you don't know if they did not use time travel. You only know the characters we see did not use time travel, and that it was not done officially. The UFP certainly came out of the war in the best position of all the powers.

Even if the UFP did not use time travel they had very little reason to want to change things. Time travel may be the reason it seems like people are always in the right place at the right time. Well used time travel would never be noticed unless you were someone like the Time Lords which the canon UFP are shown to become like.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by sonofccn » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:35 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Let's just say that Luke's actions helped the Rebels in that they took Palpatine's and Vader's attention away from what was happening on Endor? ;)
I don't know considering Palatine's track record he might have been a greater hindrence than asset*:

Palpatine:Order the fleet to power down weapons and shields!

Imperial Officer:But sir, the rebel fleet...

Palpatine: Precisely, they'll move in to destroy what they think is an undefended squadron little suspecting it is just the first part of my masterstroke plan!<Evil laugh>

Imperial Officer:I see sir...ah could you please step over here with me next to this railless bottomless pit we designed for absoultely no reason. Certainly not for you to fall in by "accident".

*yes its a joke.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:14 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Like the time Risa got decimated?
Sorry, but Risa was never decimated during the Dominion War. You may be mistakenly thinking of the sabotage that one group of kooks did to the Risian weather control system in "Let He Who is Without Sin..." to make a statement about how they believed people in the Federation were becoming weak, decadent, and complacent. But that was a relatively minor event and it had nothing to do with the war.
-Mike

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