What's accepted SW canon?

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Khas
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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Khas » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:22 am

It's just your tone. It struck me as very similar to his.

It's also the fact that he's had two sockpuppets (SarahStar, Padathrawn), the latter of whom just got permabanned.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by User1461 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:32 am

Good to know. So what's the policy on implied contradictions, then?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:27 pm

Well, implied contradictions are contradictions still, so if the higher Canon implies that what is said in one book is wrong, then it is wrong...

Higher Canon always trumps lower Canon, no exceptions...

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by User1461 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:50 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Well, implied contradictions are contradictions still.
Not according to some, who say that only express contradictions are non-canon. Like they'll often deny an express contradiction by saying that the character "didn't know what they were talking about."

But obviously, there are many, many more potential implied contradictions, than express ones. Specifically, firepower, hyperdrive and shield-stats would be limited to those actually seen in the films, since obviously they wouldn't be dialing them down.
So if a novel claims some figure that grossly exceeds those seen onscreen, it's an implied contradiction. I think this is the main source of all the conflict between sides. If an author can make canon the instant he writes it, simply because it doesn't contradict the higher-canon expressly, then Lucas ceases to be in control of his own universe, and the inmates have taken over the asylum wouldn't you say?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:13 am

Can you give an example or two of some of these implied contradictions?
-Mike

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by User1461 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:03 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Can you give an example or two of some of these implied contradictions?
-Mike
They're everywhere. From SDN:
The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship, page 248 describes the recoil of a turbolaser cannon:

"The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength."

This implies that the energy release from a turbolaser cannon is comparable to the detonation of a bomb with a yield of at least one gigaton (one thousand megatons). This translates to >4.186E18 joules. This is almost twice the estimate presented above (in relation to Base Delta Zero operations performed by 200 cannons). This is acceptable, since the estimate presented above for melting a planet's surface is very conservative, perhaps by an order of magnitude (this reference was provided by Ethan Platten).
Likewise, from Star Wars - Dark Lord The Rise of Darth Vader by James Luceno:
"I'll ask Archyr about outfitting the ship with an intergalactic drive.
Vader leapt again, this time to the bridge, and to within only a few meters of Shryne, who spun about, dropping to one knee and firing repeatedly. This time Vader decided to show Shryne whom he was dealing with. Holding his lightsaber to one side, he raised his right hand to turn the blaster bolts... A jump carried him to the rampart, just short of the lowering shield, where he did something so unexpected that it took Shryne a
moment to make sense of what was happening. Vader hurled his ignited lightsaber through the air. For a split second Shryne thought that he had done so in anger. Then, in awe, he grasped that Vader had aimed. Spinning out from under the lowering security grate, the crimson blade sailed high over the crowd, following a trajectory that took it north of the landing platform; then, on reaching the distal end of its arc, it began to boomerang back. Shryne flew for the top of the stairway, his gaze frilly engaged on the twirling blade, his heart hammering in his chest. Calling on the Force, he tried to influence the course of the lightsaber, but either the Force wasn't with him or Vader's Force abilities were overpowering his. The blade was whipping toward the landing platform now, close enough for Shryne to hear it whine through the air, and spinning so swiftly it might have been a blood-red disk. Passing within a meter of Shryne's outstretched hands, the lightsaber struck Fang Zar first, ripping a deep gouge across his upper chest and nearly decapitating him; then, continuing on, it struck an unsuspecting Jula across the back before completing its swift and lethal circle and slamming into the
upper reaches of the fully lowered rampart gate, where it switched off and plummeted to the paving stones with a metallic clangor.
These things far exceed the implied capabilities shown in the movies.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:55 am

What's implied there? That sounds pretty blatent on the first on, and somewhat iffy on the second.
-Mike

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by User1461 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:20 am

The movies imply that all this is horse-hockey. They never show gigaton-level turbolasers, intergalactic hyperdrive, the ability to turn blaster-bolts using the Force, or to use the Force to throw and manipulate an ignited lightsaber at a great distance.

Here's the implied contradictions from what we see in the films:

1. Tubolasers never fire gigaton-level shots in the movies. They fire at asteroids, but still the don't stop damage the ship; the gigaton-TL claim is either non-canon, or those are some hella-tough asteroids.
2. The bridge-officer tells Adm. Piett, that Solo "could be anywhere in the galaxy by now." Just the galaxy? If intergalactic hyperdrives were available, he could be much further than that. We never see any such travel.
3. Shortly afterward, Vader deflects Solo's blaster-bolt with his armored gauntlet, not the Force.
4. In RotJ, Vader throws his lightsaber at Luke, and it just flies in a straight line and does some damage to the platform he's hiding on; it doesn't fly around like a boomerang.

These are all implied contradictions.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:34 am

One of you guys recently claimed that Lucas said Marek was the most powerful Force user ever or something like that.

The guy who makes Force blasts that clean vast rooms of stormies, who forces an ISD to land, and who hammer Vader through several walls via Force TK.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:39 pm

WhosYourData wrote:The movies imply that all this is horse-hockey. They never show gigaton-level turbolasers, intergalactic hyperdrive, the ability to turn blaster-bolts using the Force, or to use the Force to throw and manipulate an ignited lightsaber at a great distance.

Here's the implied contradictions from what we see in the films:

1. Tubolasers never fire gigaton-level shots in the movies. They fire at asteroids, but still the don't stop damage the ship; the gigaton-TL claim is either non-canon, or those are some hella-tough asteroids.
2. The bridge-officer tells Adm. Piett, that Solo "could be anywhere in the galaxy by now." Just the galaxy? If intergalactic hyperdrives were available, he could be much further than that. We never see any such travel.
3. Shortly afterward, Vader deflects Solo's blaster-bolt with his armored gauntlet, not the Force.
4. In RotJ, Vader throws his lightsaber at Luke, and it just flies in a straight line and does some damage to the platform he's hiding on; it doesn't fly around like a boomerang.

These are all implied contradictions.
And these are examples most of us use when showing how the movies do contradict the EU... :)

But the part where Vader blocks Shryne's bolts, he's using his right hand, the armored one, so he's basically doing the same thing he was in TESB...

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Khas » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:54 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:One of you guys recently claimed that Lucas said Marek was the most powerful Force user ever or something like that.

The guy who makes Force blasts that clean vast rooms of stormies, who forces an ISD to land, and who hammer Vader through several walls via Force TK.
That was me. Why do you ask?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:58 pm

This:
I Sense a Disturbance in the Star Wars Canon
# By Chris Baker Email Author
# August 15, 2008 |
# 2:38 pm |
# Categories: Movies, sci-fi

The release of The Clone Wars movie has sent some hard-core Star Wars fans into a tizzy.

"Yeah, it’s Star Wars," wrote JackBauer24 in a post about the animated Clone Wars on The Galactic Senate website. "Star Wars from a man who cares little about established continuity. It’s Star Wars that takes place in a time period already over-crouded (sic) with conflicting stories and source materials. I understand that Lucas wanted to continue the story into television, but Jesus Christ, couldn’t he have picked a point in the saga that wasn’t filled with stories, some of which HE HIMSELF approved?!"

The flap among the fanboys isn’t so much because of the quality of the movie, which opened Friday to mixed reviews, but because of the role it plays in the overarching Star Wars continuity. In fact, the keepers of Lucasfilm’s well-manicured franchise had to come up with a new level of reality for Clone Wars to inhabit — just the kind of move that can get Star Wars superfans’ Wookiee suits in a twist.

"The Clone Wars takes place chronologically between Star Wars films Episode II and Episode III," says Henry Gilroy, a seasoned scripter of animated film and TV who wrote the film as well as the CG TV series due later this year. "We follow the adventures of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi as well as other Jedi fighting to preserve the lofty ideals of the Republic against Count Dooku and his cronies who are threatening to tear the galaxy apart."

The new CG Clone Wars also takes place between a couple different levels of canonicity. As every hard-core Star Wars fan knows, there are differing levels of reality in the franchise’s continuity. The novels, videogames and comic books are all part of what is called the Expanded Universe.

Many Lucasfilm employees spend their days making sure that the different pieces of this vast merchandising empire all fit together and are based on the same physical reality, whether it’s the color of lightsabers or the distance from one planet to another.

But there’s another, higher level of canon — the canon of the films — which is often called "G Canon," since George Lucas himself is intimately involved in it.

"Even though it was animated in a stylized CG form, George made it very clear to director Dave Filoni and myself that the animated movie was continuing the story of the live-action movies," says Gilroy.

The events in the CG Clone Wars fall somewhere in between the Expanded Universe and the G Canon of the films. And it’s up to people like Leland Chee, an employee of Lucas Licensing, to educate the many different artists working in the Star Wars universe about what has come before.

"He’s like the king continuity geek," says Gilroy. "He’s an encyclopedia of Star Wars
knowledge combining all the hundreds of comics, dozens of novels and games too. There is just so much in the Expanded Universe (everything not in the movies), it was great knowing Leland was there to prevent any grave inconsistencies from coming to pass."
Chee also had to determine how the events that play out in the CG Clone Wars
film and upcoming TV shows would coexist with the rest of the Star Wars world. The action didn’t quite fit with the films, and didn’t quite fit into the Expanded Universe.Finally, Chee had to create another, intermediary level of canonicity:
T Canon.

Since Chee announced this new level of reality in the Star Wars universe, some fans have been disgruntled. The blog at the Canon Wars site, which tracks the doctrinal disputes of the Star Wars universe, has a fun post on the hue and cry.

According to Gilroy, the Clone Wars CG offerings will give us a fresh perspective on the characters from the prequel films. "Take
Anakin Skywalker, for example," he says. "We’re going to see another side to him in the movie — when he was a champion of the
Republic and a great Jedi hero. So he’s not the brooding, petulant kid we knew from the movies, but the best friend and comrade-in-arms of
Obi-Wan Kenobi, as well as a playful big brother-like mentor to his new padawan, Ahsoka Tano."

Lucas weighed in on the new additions to his story line. And even though the Clone Wars
CG offerings exist on their own level of reality — below the films but above the books, comics and videogames — Lucasfilm continuity geeks like Chee nit-picked inconsistencies.

"Once I wanted to use the Toydarians, a race of aliens from the movies, in a comic book story, and Leland told me it wouldn’t make sense — so I swapped them out for a new alien civilization," Gilroy says. "A guy like that is indispensable in a galaxy that has grown as large as it has."

UPDATE: Leland Chee posts in the comments below, noting that his job also entails helping to repair rifts in the space/time continuum of Star Wars. (Look for additional coverage of him and the Lucas Licensing department on wired.com next week.) Chee writes:

Luckily in my role in Lucas Licensing, not only do I have the opportunity to nit-pick, but I also have the opportunity to work with our authors to explain the inconsistencies to make everything cohesive.
We did this with Boba Fett’s backstory (much of it was attributed to
Jango). We did this with the stormtroopers being clones (not all stormtroopers are clones explaining the height differences of stormtroopers and the degredation of their markmenship). We did this with the very early EU deaths of Jan Dodonna (captured) and Hobbie
Klivian (crashes alot). And rest assured, we’re already working it all out with The Clone Wars animated series.
Pretty much shows how involved Leland Chee is with the creators of TCW as an advisor on the complete SW universe (which includes the EU)...

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:07 am

So, what's going on? Is Lucas limiting his vision to the world the merchandising has created?
That's very different from Lucas giving the finger and bringing in inconsistencies with the EU if he wants to.
He's abdicating, right?

Oh, on a sidenote. The ANH may be written by Lucas (officially I mean), that doesn't change much towards its canonical status. Remember the Ewok movies, all made by Lucas. They're directly treated as C-canon.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Nowhereman10 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:14 am

I'm not sure any of this fits right. We have seen numerous times where the TCW has contradicted the EU, such to the point that it has made author Karen Traviss leave the franchise because the Madalorians seen in the series were almost completely different from her vision of them. We see firepower that is in-line with most of the movies, yet completely at odds with the Incredible Cross Sections books authored by Saxton. So how is Chee helping at all, if he really is. The only thing I see here that's consistant with other interviews is that George Lucas approves of the TCW series as a direct continuation of his movies' storyline.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:34 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh, on a sidenote. The ANH may be written by Lucas (officially I mean), that doesn't change much towards its canonical status. Remember the Ewok movies, all made by Lucas. They're directly treated as C-canon.
Says who?

Lucas or Chee?

Lucas has said, that all that is coming from him, is highest canon. That's what is the important thing here.

Let's assume that Lucas has made an exception for the Ewok movies. Has he done it also for the ANH novelization?

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