What's accepted SW canon?

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:13 am

It's pretty much a given that aside from at few exceptions, recent statements from representatives of the EU branch see just one grand saga.
Unfortunately, we also have statements about the movie canon vs. the all encompassing canon. So no need to sweat, everybody's happy.

If you want to be a purist, you can. But that doesn't mean you will like the movie canon since the guy who coined this term thinks by movie canon that only movies count. Novelizations are just some other EU stuff. And that also means, then, the radio dramas.
Scripts... they should be "movie" enough for you.
It's also a person who, if I got it right, has labeled the CGI clone wars as T canon, despite how involved in them Lucas is. Obviously, T canon is much closer to the movies (and some could logically claim that they're on the same level) than to the EU.

Which brings me to the all encompassing canon policy of LFL, its Holocron canon policy, and how things are managed, which is almost always referred to the very moment you actually accept the EU : we rarely get to see someone come with his own canon that still takes into account the EU.

Note that it's different from accepting the Holocron policy but trying to make it say things it doesn't say, like it happened for the canonical status of the ICSes.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:28 pm

I've been watching TCW second season, and not just the episodes either, but the special comentaries about the shows, how they come up with things, and it basically boils down to this:
Dave Filoni (TCW director) says that the team (everyone working on TCW, including George Lucas) get together to discuss the stories, and that GL comes up with story ideas, and often tells the guys "I want this in an episode", and this is final.
So GL is heavily involved in TCW, so everything we see in there is as Canon as anything seen in the movies.
So if we want to go the "purist" way of interpreting things, then the highest Canon, or the "movie-only" SW universe, is actually a "movie-and-TCW-only type of Canon.
Problem for those purists are, that TCW often refers to the EU...

So it's back to the old LFL Canon policy if you want to save yourself some headaches... :)

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Khas » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:37 pm

Actually, Movies, TCW, and The Force Unleashed game would make up the canon, as Lucas was directly involved with TFU. And according to him, Galen Marek (the guy you play as) was the most powerful Force-sensitive ever.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:19 am

Do you have more details on this TFU involvement, Khas?
-Mike

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:25 pm

I didn't see where he mentioned Galen Marek being the most powerful Force-Sensitive ever.
And it kind of flies in the face of Anakin Skywalker, supposedly being the most powerful Force-Sensitive ever, the one who would bring balance to the Force... O_O

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Khas » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:16 pm


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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by User1460 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:56 pm

Hello all! Long-time lurker, first-time poster.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It's pretty much a given that aside from at few exceptions, recent statements from representatives of the EU branch see just one grand saga.
To play devil's advocate, I must say that of course the EU includes everything in the films, since it's higher canon; the question is whether the same is true of the reverse, since the reps of the G-canon have the say as to whether that goes. If they don't expressly say that the G-canon includes the EU, then one can't assume such out of thin air now, can they?

Likewise, do any G-canon reps keep track of things like power-figures, weapons-yields, hyperdrive-speeds, shield-strength, armor-durability et cetera, to make sure they square up with those of the EU? If not, then there's no basis for continuity between them, and they're indeed separate. I agree with the above: i.e. why would anyone build a Death Star if you could do more damage with a "Dr. Sauren" trilithium-like Sun Crusher?
Claiming continuity among higher and lesser canon, requires hard evidence of this type; since everyone knows that lesser includes higher: but the reverse isn't a matter of reliable course, right?

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:21 am

Mmm... where to look at exactly?
God, I can't fucking stand that ridiculous blade in the back stance.
It would only make sense if they were fighting with lightdaggers. Same shit for Ashoka.
Can't wait to see her die in TCWS. That's all she deserves for using such a pants on head retarded stance.
Padathrawn wrote:Hello all! Long-time lurker, first-time poster.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It's pretty much a given that aside from at few exceptions, recent statements from representatives of the EU branch see just one grand saga.
To play devil's advocate, I must say that of course the EU includes everything in the films, since it's higher canon; the question is whether the same is true of the reverse, since the reps of the G-canon have the say as to whether that goes. If they don't expressly say that the G-canon includes the EU, then one can't assume such out of thin air now, can they?
Simply put, from the movie level of the Lucas Empire, only GL himself talks about the EU, and his commentaries tend to leave the EU out most of the time, but they're not absolutely exclusive either. In fact, at times they even reflect what the Holocron's canon policy claims. Where both departs is the statements where he says that the EU is not his universe and such varieties, and depending on how you understand universe, would mean the EU is just not even a sub-canon tier, but simply not acceptable at all.
Of course coming from the one who gets a lot of his cash from the merchandising, that's just rich.

Besides, any concept of "G-canon" strictly comes from the merchandising branch's Holocron canon policy. It wouldn't have to be used outside of the circles of those who maintain the EU.
Likewise, do any G-canon reps keep track of things like power-figures, weapons-yields, hyperdrive-speeds, shield-strength, armor-durability et cetera, to make sure they square up with those of the EU?
Never seen evidence of that. Ultimately, it's up to GL to do that, and I don't think he does. He has a vision and sticks to it. The rest is just a bunch of unimportant details, even if it's often said how Lucas is a *cough* perfectionist *cough*...
If not, then there's no basis for continuity between them, and they're indeed separate.
As I said, it depends on your point of view.
If you're a EUphile, you'll go with the Holocron's canon policy. Which means people keeping an eye on such things.
If you're a purist, you'll likely not give a damn about what's canon and generally go with the movies and pretty much anything you deem close enough to the movies.

The awkward stance, and probably hypocritical by now, is to be a purist while clinging to some outdated canon policy established a long time ago which told you where the novelizations, radio dramas and eventually scripts fit in the hierarchy (like some of Sansweet's older statements).
When you're a purist, at best you'd go with a certain interpretation of Lucas' words and not give a damn about any policy coming from the lower branch of Lucas' business group.
This one is more complicated because recent novelizations borrow more from the EU, just like TCWS.
Or like The Fuck Up.
You'd also have to check Lucas' statements about the Ewok movies and see where they fit in there.
I agree with the above: i.e. why would anyone build a Death Star if you could do more damage with a "Dr. Sauren" trilithium-like Sun Crusher?
An obsession for big balls?
Claiming continuity among higher and lesser canon, requires hard evidence of this type; since everyone knows that lesser includes higher: but the reverse isn't a matter of reliable course, right?
The EU includes the movies (G-canon) and material in between (T-canon).

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by User1460 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:00 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Likewise, do any G-canon reps keep track of things like power-figures, weapons-yields, hyperdrive-speeds, shield-strength, armor-durability et cetera, to make sure they square up with those of the EU?
Never seen evidence of that. Ultimately, it's up to GL to do that, and I don't think he does. He has a vision and sticks to it. The rest is just a bunch of unimportant details, even if it's often said how Lucas is a *cough* perfectionist *cough*...
Then we can only go with what's verified onscreen, in terms of deducing combat-figures, if the Holocron doesn't square them otherwise.
I've seen some pretty wanked-up stats in novels, they're literally "loose canons" if they can instantly write valid policy the instant their words are published, with no check beyond that.
That's simply not reliable for discussion-purposes.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Picard » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:57 pm

But sometimes, if you are serious debater (analyzing things yourself etc.) you must go with lower canon, like novels etc. (when I speak about "canon", I usually mean so-called G-canon, since I do not accept Holocron's policy at all), but movies override everything else. So levels of canonity should go (as I see it):
1) Movies
2) Novelizations
3) Cartoons, like The Clone Wars, etc.
4) Radio dramas
5) Scripts

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by User1460 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:53 pm

Picard wrote:But sometimes, if you are serious debater (analyzing things yourself etc.) you must go with lower canon, like novels etc. (when I speak about "canon", I usually mean so-called G-canon, since I do not accept Holocron's policy at all), but movies override everything else.
Why? Unless someone is squaring it in the G-canon, then it's just wanked up nothing.
In the end of TESB, for example, we see them looking at another galaxy; however nobody says anything about them travelling there, like the EU says they can with their "inter-galactic hyperdrives." When the Empire says that Solo "can be anywhere in the galaxy," then this doesn't contradict the existence of intergalactic hyperdrives, but it sure does preclude it.

So the EU-phile claim that the G-canon is squared with the EU "except in the event of an express contradiction," doesn't pass logical muster, since there's no one squaring it, or who's claiming that it's square by assumption.

Rather, the EU follows the films, not the other way around-- thus giving us the following syllogism:

"If something's in the G-canon, then it's in the EU."
This means that if something's in the G-canon, then it's always in the EU.

EU-philes attempt to claim instead, that "If something's in the EU, then it's in the G-canon, unless it contradicts."
This is a false reversal, since there's nothing to make it so... Picard :D

Rather, the fact is that things in the EU might be true in the in G-canon-- which fits with the original syllogism above. But it's a sufficent relationship, not a necessary one; and hence the EU-phile claim has no proven merit.

Rather, they're saying that "the G-canon can contradict the EU, but not vice-versa--" which obviously hurts their claim more than helps it.
So there's no proof that it's one universe, or that Lucas even hired the others or gave them permission to fill in any details that would stand in his version.
And I know there's been a lot o squabbling over this, but a version of somthing, is not the same thing as a vision of it; one is actual, the other ideal.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:48 am

Padathrawn wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Likewise, do any G-canon reps keep track of things like power-figures, weapons-yields, hyperdrive-speeds, shield-strength, armor-durability et cetera, to make sure they square up with those of the EU?
Never seen evidence of that. Ultimately, it's up to GL to do that, and I don't think he does. He has a vision and sticks to it. The rest is just a bunch of unimportant details, even if it's often said how Lucas is a *cough* perfectionist *cough*...
Then we can only go with what's verified onscreen, in terms of deducing combat-figures, if the Holocron doesn't square them otherwise.
I've seen some pretty wanked-up stats in novels, they're literally "loose canons" if they can instantly write valid policy the instant their words are published, with no check beyond that.
That's simply not reliable for discussion-purposes.
It's a bit messy, but it's true that the typical number crunching is not cared about in the canon. For example, I don't remember hearing about a rule as to what kind of firepower an ISD should have. It's left at the author's initiative, as long as it feels Star Warsish.
So yes, we go with what's shown and heard, and eventually written, for such things.
RPG and other technical manuals supposedly are there to offer points of reference for authors. The ICS and I'd even say the latest "Inside the World" books were reliable sources before messed them up by Saxton, either directly as an author, or a bit less directly as a consultant.
Suddenly, LFL realized that if they were to allow themselves publishing such numbers, with the possibility that some authors may understand them in fact, then they had to be sure they were correct.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:05 am

Padathrawn wrote: Rather, the EU follows the films, not the other way around-- thus giving us the following syllogism:

"If something's in the G-canon, then it's in the EU."
This means that if something's in the G-canon, then it's always in the EU.
Of course, since G-canon is a concept that only exists for those who maintain the EU, and they make it sure that extra material follows GL's works (safe for the Ewok movies, which are C-canon).
The Expanded Universe refers to the whole Star Wars universe when you take into consideration all the extra stuff... from the EU.

That said, G-canon material, outside of the Holocron policy, merely becomes Lucas' property/stuff/work to a purist, and from there, stops being part of the EU, since logically the purist doesn't give a damn about the EU and still goes with Lucas' works.
EU-philes attempt to claim instead, that "If something's in the EU, then it's in the G-canon, unless it contradicts."
This is a false reversal, since there's nothing to make it so... Picard :D
No, they didn't do that. They usually know what's G-canon from the rest. However they did something equally wrong, when holding in high esteem EU books which were explaining what we were seeing in the movies, and therefore being the best interpretation about what's in the movies.

It's quite a real debate here, because those who are more purists will say that if a fan's interpretation of what's in the movie is better and more accurate than what's written in the EU, the EU should be ignored. This kind of nonsense happens at time. That's why you'd see people say that the Executor must have been 8 km long because at some point in the EU, such was the official figure. Of course, anyone watching the movie and checking the figures would know that it wasn't true.
And similar things...
So yes, you shouldn't be surprised to see a strong EUphile hard at you about how what he says is right because it's written black on white there, in some EU book, even if it's totally wrong. Said fan may claim that official canon is superior to fan made observations.
Luckily, such people are rather rare... safe when it came to the ICS, but aside from being utterly dishonest about what could be verified on screen, they usually pretended that for anything not shown or told wasn't contradicting the ICS' numbers, so they applied in lack of obvious contradiction.
Hence the exhaustive debates.
Rather, the fact is that things in the EU might be true in the in G-canon-- which fits with the original syllogism above. But it's a sufficent relationship, not a necessary one; and hence the EU-phile claim has no proven merit.
It's stronger than that. The EU's extra material (C-canon in general) will be true unless there's a clear contradiction.
Then, there's the contradiction acknowledged by policy upholders, and contradictions argued about by the fans. On the second point, what's a "clear contradiction" can be heavily debated (again, see the ICS debates).
Rather, they're saying that "the G-canon can contradict the EU, but not vice-versa--" which obviously hurts their claim more than helps it.
I think most of them actually have no problem with that. The loonies are rare.
So there's no proof that it's one universe, or that Lucas even hired the others or gave them permission to fill in any details that would stand in his version.
No need to go there.
For the EU, there's one universe, with layers of accuracy, and for the purist way of things, it's material that's close to Lucas, and the closer to him, the more accurate in general.
That's all, no need to split hairs.

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Re: What's accepted SW canon?

Post by Picard » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:40 am

Padathrawn wrote:
Picard wrote:But sometimes, if you are serious debater (analyzing things yourself etc.) you must go with lower canon, like novels etc. (when I speak about "canon", I usually mean so-called G-canon, since I do not accept Holocron's policy at all), but movies override everything else.
Why? Unless someone is squaring it in the G-canon, then it's just wanked up nothing.
In the end of TESB, for example, we see them looking at another galaxy; however nobody says anything about them travelling there, like the EU says they can with their "inter-galactic hyperdrives." When the Empire says that Solo "can be anywhere in the galaxy," then this doesn't contradict the existence of intergalactic hyperdrives, but it sure does preclude it.

So the EU-phile claim that the G-canon is squared with the EU "except in the event of an express contradiction," doesn't pass logical muster, since there's no one squaring it, or who's claiming that it's square by assumption.

Rather, the EU follows the films, not the other way around-- thus giving us the following syllogism:

"If something's in the G-canon, then it's in the EU."
This means that if something's in the G-canon, then it's always in the EU.

EU-philes attempt to claim instead, that "If something's in the EU, then it's in the G-canon, unless it contradicts."
This is a false reversal, since there's nothing to make it so... Picard :D

Rather, the fact is that things in the EU might be true in the in G-canon-- which fits with the original syllogism above. But it's a sufficent relationship, not a necessary one; and hence the EU-phile claim has no proven merit.

Rather, they're saying that "the G-canon can contradict the EU, but not vice-versa--" which obviously hurts their claim more than helps it.
So there's no proof that it's one universe, or that Lucas even hired the others or gave them permission to fill in any details that would stand in his version.
And I know there's been a lot o squabbling over this, but a version of somthing, is not the same thing as a vision of it; one is actual, the other ideal.
Here I must say that I do not accept EU as canon at all. Which means that under "lower canon" I meant novels, scripts and radio plays, opposed to movies which are higher canon. That is simplest solution to EU-phile wank, and supported by Lucas himself.

Only other option is to accept stance that EU is canon as long as it is not contradicted by so-called G-canon (stance taken by Lucas Lincensing in order to make money from EU), but that leads to Warsie wankage-to-extreme, as they will try to reshape G-canon to fit ICS (in short, to your average Warsie, Episode II and Episode III ICS are highest canon that is, and anything that contradicts them, be it G-, C-, T- or N- canon, must be reshaped, reinterpreted, recalculated or modified to fit these two ICS books).

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