What's accepted SW canon?

[KirkSkyWalker]

On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

Honestly, it doesn't sound like that at all.

Now he's arguing with Leland Chee... welcome to "Episiode What-IV, There's No Hope."

[Praeothmin]

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

Says so right here.
The EU is part of George's vision, as stated by someone who actualy works closely with Lucas, at least much closer than any of us here.
So if Chee says the EU is part of SW and George's vision, then it is, no matter what some people might wish...

[The Dude]

Now he's arguing with Leland Chee... welcome to "Episiode What-IV, There's No Hope."

No I'm not, I'm reading exactly whats in the quote and taking it at face value. It's right there:

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

[2046]

Good lord, not this "arguing with Chee" crap again. Based on Chee's writings, it's not even clear he's ever even met Lucas or talked with him in any capacity.

And if you consider it so important that someone might be "arguing with Chee", why is it that you choose to ignore the fact that Chee is explicitly contradicting the words of Lucas about multiple universes? Lucas says it frequently . . . don't you think it a cardinal sin for Chee to suggest the contrary?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Good lord, not this "arguing with Chee" crap again. Based on Chee's writings, it's not even clear he's ever even met Lucas or talked with him in any capacity.

And if you consider it so important that someone might be "arguing with Chee", why is it that you choose to ignore the fact that Chee is explicitly contradicting the words of Lucas about multiple universes? Lucas says it frequently . . . don't you think it a cardinal sin for Chee to suggest the contrary?

I do not see any reason why not to question chee or anybody else regarding clarification on certain points considering the contradictions they have made.

They are supposed to have the answers so why the fuck not question them?, tghose that say its wrong seem to be afraid the answers may contradict their beliefs so attack those who do ask.

[The Dude]

Isn't it Chee's job to keep track of what is and is not canon? So do we listen to him? Do we listen to George? Do we listen to Chee unless Lucas says otherwise?

Maybe we ought to result to coin flipping.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Isn't it Chee's job to keep track of what is and is not canon? So do we listen to him? Do we listen to George? Do we listen to Chee unless Lucas says otherwise?

Maybe we ought to result to coin flipping.

Just go with:

1. What GL says goes.
2. What Chee says MAY go.....

[Praeothmin]

Chee is in charge of LFL, or Lucas Film Licensing.
Even if he never met Lucas in person, HE is in charge of Lucas's comanies canon policy.
If George doesn't like what he hears, he can come in at any time and say "This is not right, change it!", as he's done a million times according to many inteviews.
So if the canon policy truly was not in accord with Lucas's vision, then Chee would know it, bet on it.

And, know what?
Everything that comes from GL (no, not Green Lantern) himself is considered G-canon, so it fits perfectly well with the "parallel universes" theory.
G-canon is the main universe, and all other canon levels are the added second, or "parallel" universe.
As long as G-canon is on top and what contradicts it is ignored, just as Chee's canon policy explains, then evereything is kosher...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Perhaps George Lucas has multiple accounts?

[2046]

Chee is in charge of LFL, or Lucas Film Licensing.

No he isn't.

Even if he never met Lucas in person, HE is in charge of Lucas's comanies canon policy.

He is the advisor and keeper of the database, but if tomorrow the EU is written to include Dark Fluffy Bunnies as always having been the origin of the Sith, he would be obliged to include it in said database.

If George doesn't like what he hears, he can come in at any time and say "This is not right, change it!",

What is this nonsense? What, do you also think the President of the US personally is aware of and signs off on every decision made by every minor functionary in every useless department of the US Government? Because that's basically what you're saying here.

On the topic of Chee's Holocron, Lucas has said "I think somewhere in some of the dark recesses of my company's files there is something like that, but I've never seen it."

But to further this EU-philia, you'd rather believe that George Lucas, writer, director, chairman of the board, father, and filmmaker can also add "omniscient guy with geek-related micro-management cred" to his list, because you're clearly of the opinion that he must know of and support Chee's work.

That's just silly talk, and makes plain a profound ignorance in the way things work.

as he's done a million times according to many inteviews.

What interviews? I keep a rather extensive list, you know, and I've never seen that. What actually happens is that Licensing sends him little questionnaires for permission for things, but the fact remains that by his own statements the two are separate universes.

Carry that thought further. If I told you you could write books using the same characters and background as my pre-existing universe and that your works were to be separate, I would probably still want some control over it to make sure my honorable character wasn't a crack-smoking hippie in your version.

Similarly, to avoid confusion with his characters, Lucas totally screwed up the plans of the EU's creators when he instructed them not to kill Anakin Solo or whatever due to the Anakin name, which was their plan and what the whole ballgame up to that point had been leading toward. So blammo, they kill another Solobaby instead.

So if the canon policy truly was not in accord with Lucas's vision, then Chee would know it, bet on it.

Frankly, the hell he would. Chee's been exposed to the statements and when he's commented upon them he has tried to contradict or sidestep them at every turn. It's not a sin for him to do so (though in the "arguing with Chee!" playbook it must be) . . . after all, he's been dealing with the EU from within the walls of those who make it for a long time, and their intent has always been to make a universe that could, in principle if not practice, "plug in" to the one of Lucas.

But even Rostoni, who's higher in that than Chee, acknowledges the Lucas position of dual universes, and unlike yourself she takes that to the logical conclusion.

Besides, if the EU continuity was truly in line with the vision of Lucas, this whole "OMG the Clone Wars CGI show tramples everything!" whine from the EU Completists would not be occurring. And yet it is.

Put simply, your entire position is flawed.

And, know what?
Everything that comes from GL (no, not Green Lantern) himself is considered G-canon, so it fits perfectly well with the "parallel universes" theory.
G-canon is the main universe, and all other canon levels are the added second, or "parallel" universe.
As long as G-canon is on top and what contradicts it is ignored, just as Chee's canon policy explains, then evereything is kosher...

Again, no. You can't just ignore rank and you can't just assume that facts are the same between separate universes. The former error is leading you to be forced into the latter, but either way the errors are compounding to your detriment.

[Picard]

Personally, I always assumed that only movies, novelizations, and radio plays (and, for purposes of debate, scripts) are canon, for both ST and SW (I did accept whole "canon until contradicted by higher canon" thing on SDN, for sake of debate. It's stupid to spend entire time screaming "It is not canon!" "Yes it is!" "F*** u, it is not!" if so-called G-canon overrides entire EU.).

[Praeothmin]

No he isn't.

You're right, he isn't...

But one person who is, and who gets to decide what the LFL canon policy is, is the President of Lucas Licensing, Howard Roffman.
And while Lucas does state that his SW world are the movies and the animated series (which aren't G-canon, but a lower T-canon), he also had to approve the way LFL was acting in regards to the SW stories.
George Lucas approved the way LFL does things, as seen in the interview below.

LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard (President of Lucas Licensing) tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"

What, do you also think the President of the US personally is aware of and signs off on every decision made by every minor functionary in every useless department of the US Government?

Minor decision?
The canon policy derives from directives on what EU authors are allowed to play with or not in the SW world.
Your very own example of Anakin not being elligible for death by the word of GL shows GL is very much involved in this "useless department" and has a hand in forming these "minor policies" from "minor functionaries"...
As with the movies, his word does indeed seem to be law...

While George isn't aware of everything that happens in the EU, he does control a lot of what they can and cannot do, and he himself admitted to using the Encyclopedia:

But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used.

So no matter how you try to spin it, GL is very influent in how LFL set things, and how the "other universe" is viewed.
He gives directives on, and tries to remain consistent with, this other "parallel" world, and this works very well with the canon policy, which is "If it comes from GL, it's at the top and is immuable, but anything below is still SW, only of less importance then GL's work".
You wish to interpret it differently, then good for you , but we are not all obligated to do so...

[2046]

Have you even been to CanonWars.com?

No he isn't.

You're right, he isn't...

But one person who is, and who gets to decide what the LFL canon policy is, is the President of Lucas Licensing, Howard Roffman.

No he doesn't.

Roffman oversees Lucas Licensing, a merchandising subsidiary of Lucasfilm Ltd. Lucasfilm Ltd. holds all the rights to the Star Wars brand and intellectual property. They allow this brand name to be put on other products . . . this merchandising is overseen by Lucas Licensing. But Licensing has no say beyond that.

((The part where you guys get confused is that Star Wars is a fictional story product created and owned by LFL, and Licensing has been licensing the brand name for other fictional story products in different media (books, games, comics, et cetera). These are stories based on Star Wars, but per Lucas and others that's as far as it goes.))

Lucasfilm Ltd. has its own president (at one point a Mr. Radley) and its own board, chaired by The Flannelled One.

So you basically just said that the president of the subsidiary handling toys and other licensed products is the grand poo-bah of Star Wars fact.

That's silly.

And while Lucas does state that his SW world are the movies and the animated series (which aren't G-canon, but a lower T-canon), he also had to approve the way LFL was acting in regards to the SW stories.

There are a few confused ideas in the above.

1. Framing the statements of Lucas in regards to G versus T-canon is putting the cart before the horse, as it were . . . you're doing a switcheroo regarding rank and thus begging the question.

2. Lucas didn't have to approve anything. By the same token, he doesn't have to take a hands-off approach. And allowing Licensing to do something is not approval of the storyline in the sense of it being canon for his universe. Lucas could approve a transforming Star Wars fighter (e.g. the Transformers Jedi Fighter crossover thingy) . . . that doesn't mean it is canon for his universe or even for the EU.

George Lucas approved the way LFL does things, as seen in the interview below.

LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard (President of Lucas Licensing) tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"

Did you really just use the explicit statement by Lucas wherein he explicitly describes that the Licensing universe is a completely separate one to try to argue that somehow the EU is in fact part of his universe?

Were you not the one decrying fan argument with Chee? Yet you ignore Chee's contradictions of Lucas and you yourself go so far as to twist Lucas's words, which in my view is picking a fight all your own with him.

So no matter how you try to spin it, GL is very influent in how LFL set things, and how the "other universe" is viewed.

I'm not the one spinning, here. Indeed, by my count, I seem to be the one frequently correcting you here on matters of who's who and what's what in regards to people, companies, and roles.

He gives directives on, and tries to remain consistent with, this other "parallel" world,

No, he does not. Have you not heard of "The Clone Wars" and all the wailing and gnashing of teeth by EU-philes, up to and including Chee? Have you not heard Dave Filoni go on and on about how he tries to bring in the EU into stories George hands him and frequently gets quashed?

Yet you would handwave these facts away and try to sweep them under the rug based on Lucas being polite and trying not to reuse names.

the canon policy, which is "If it comes from GL, it's at the top and is immuable, but anything below is still SW, only of less importance then GL's work".
You wish to interpret it differently, then good for you , but we are not all obligated to do so...

Considering you just pulled that so-called canon policy out of thin air, given that it is based on no quote I am aware of, you should admit it is your own personal fanon policy and be done with it. Then we would have no further argument.

The issue is that you are attempting to assert your opinion as if it is objective fact. It is not, because it is in contradiction to the facts.

Your very own example of Anakin not being elligible for death by the word of GL shows GL is very much involved in this "useless department" and has a hand in forming these "minor policies" from "minor functionaries"...

Lucas answering questionnaires from folks in Licensing's publishing department do not a canon policy make. As we know, Lucas simply didn't want people confusing the books with his universe in that case ... that's not formation of policy or storyline. That's protecting a brand name. The two are very different concepts.

Please take a look at CanonWars.com before replying. You will find that most of your concepts are already addressed there, and I think the clarification and even basic data you'll find there will help you if you wish to argue further.

[Mike DiCenso]

That 2008 Total Film magazine quote is now the second firm statement (the first being the Starlog 2005 interview) from George Lucas where he mentions that the Star Wars EU works like the Star Trek one in being a totally seperate universe and continuity. How much more do you need besides Lucas showing up at your house and punching you in the nose to tell you that's how it works? And why does LFL continue to cling to their canon hierarchy nonsense when Lucas has clearly contradicted it time and again? Sheesh.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

That 2008 Total Film magazine quote is now the second firm statement (the first being the Starlog 2005 interview) from George Lucas where he mentions that the Star Wars EU works like the Star Trek one in being a totally seperate universe and continuity. How much more do you need besides Lucas showing up at your house and punching you in the nose to tell you that's how it works? And why does LFL continue to cling to their canon hierarchy nonsense when Lucas has clearly contradicted it time and again? Sheesh.
-Mike

Sheesh? And what do you want them to do praytell?
What to do with the guy who owns your arse and whom drowns in the money generated by the fictional-merchandising business you manage?
It's probably the worst situation I've seen in any franchise, probably because of the quantity of material.
The question isn't problematic though. If you want to stick with GL's vision, you just go with his stuff.
Then, LFL, they have that policy because as long as you give a damn about the EU, that's the way it goes. They have that policy which they follow, knowing full well that the moment GL pulls a monkey that blasts off a full pan of the EU, they'll have to decanonize material and apply tape.

So there's no one policy. Either you go purist or EUphile, that's all, and in both cases, you actually do know what the policies are.