ST Manuals and canon

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Picard
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Re: ST Manuals and canon

Post by Picard » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:35 am

Rodenberry made Star Trek, so... but basically it is from his comment that whenever TNG and TOS contradict each other, TNG comes off as final authority.

Lucky
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Re: ST Manuals and canon

Post by Lucky » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:23 am

Picard wrote:Rodenberry made Star Trek, so... but basically it is from his comment that whenever TNG and TOS contradict each other, TNG comes off as final authority.
But he didn't own it, and as far as I can tell they don't contradict each other.

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Re: ST Manuals and canon

Post by User1601 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:41 am

Lucky wrote:
Picard wrote:Rodenberry made Star Trek, so... but basically it is from his comment that whenever TNG and TOS contradict each other, TNG comes off as final authority.
But he didn't own it, and as far as I can tell they don't contradict each other.
They DO. For example, in TOS, the Vulcan Neckpinch was similar to the Vulcan Mind-meld, i.e. achieved by applying telepathic energy through the fingertips; this is why Kirk couldn't do it, even though Spock tried to show him how; likewise, Dr. McCoy couldn't do it on the Federation detective in STIII, even though he was both carrying Spock's personality inside him AND he was a super-doctor who'd know every nerve-cell in the human and alien body.

The Neckpinch was invented by Nimoy himself during the filming of the episode "Court Martial," where the script called for Spock to supposed to come up behind Ben Finney and conk him over the head with the butt of his phaser; but Nimoy said that this was rather crude for a Vulcan, who had the power to spread energy out from his fingertips; so they came up instead with the Vulcan Neckpinch-- which is first shown in this episode, as he uses it on Finney instead; and as shown there and elsewhere (such as STIV), Spock barely touches the person, using no pressure at all, since the telepathic energy does the work (and a pinch obviously wouldn't do much anyway, except cause pain and injury if it was done with extreme force-- not cause a person to simply fall instantly unconscious without feeling a thing).

However in TNG's "Unification, II," Data does the Vulcan Neckpinch on Sela, simply by watching Spock. Data doesn't have any special ability to project telepathic or other invisible power from his fingers, and he certainly wouldn't know that Spock did it simply by watching him; this indicates that the VNP is simply some type of "pressure point/judo-chop" socky thing which anyone can do if they know the right spot; in fact it's amazing that Nimoy didn't correct this in filming.

Likewise, Spock tells Data that he envies Data's lack of emotions; this completely contradicts TMP, where Spock learned the value of having feelings, from V'ger-- who had none, despite being nearly omnipotent and omniscient.

So they definitely contradict freely; however TNG definitely doesn't supercede the TOS, which is undoubtedly the highest canon.

Later movies began selling out the ST philosophy, so I'll leave them aside as well.

Picard
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Re: ST Manuals and canon

Post by Picard » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:54 am

Lucky wrote:
Picard wrote:Rodenberry made Star Trek, so... but basically it is from his comment that whenever TNG and TOS contradict each other, TNG comes off as final authority.
But he didn't own it, and as far as I can tell they don't contradict each other.
They do contradict each other on many occasions. And while Rodenberry did not own Star Trek, he was Word of God as long as he was involved with it. And he created it. I might be wrong, but I think it is enough to give him final say on how Star Trek canon is shaped.

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Re: ST Manuals and canon

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:52 pm

SpaceWizard wrote:
They DO. For example, in TOS, the Vulcan Neckpinch was similar to the Vulcan Mind-meld, i.e. achieved by applying telepathic energy through the fingertips; this is why Kirk couldn't do it, even though Spock tried to show him how; likewise, Dr. McCoy couldn't do it on the Federation detective in STIII, even though he was both carrying Spock's personality inside him AND he was a super-doctor who'd know every nerve-cell in the human and alien body.

The Neckpinch was invented by Nimoy himself during the filming of the episode "Court Martial," where the script called for Spock to supposed to come up behind Ben Finney and conk him over the head with the butt of his phaser; but Nimoy said that this was rather crude for a Vulcan, who had the power to spread energy out from his fingertips; so they came up instead with the Vulcan Neckpinch-- which is first shown in this episode, as he uses it on Finney instead; and as shown there and elsewhere (such as STIV), Spock barely touches the person, using no pressure at all, since the telepathic energy does the work (and a pinch obviously wouldn't do much anyway, except cause pain and injury if it was done with extreme force-- not cause a person to simply fall instantly unconscious without feeling a thing).

However in TNG's "Unification, II," Data does the Vulcan Neckpinch on Sela, simply by watching Spock. Data doesn't have any special ability to project telepathic or other invisible power from his fingers, and he certainly wouldn't know that Spock did it simply by watching him; this indicates that the VNP is simply some type of "pressure point/judo-chop" socky thing which anyone can do if they know the right spot; in fact it's amazing that Nimoy didn't correct this in filming.
I do not recall any mention of the neck pinch being a telepathic ability in any of the series.
Likewise, Spock tells Data that he envies Data's lack of emotions; this completely contradicts TMP, where Spock learned the value of having feelings, from V'ger-- who had none, despite being nearly omnipotent and omniscient.
He mentions that Data has "no emotional impediments" but he does not say he envies him...envy being a emotion lol..
So they definitely contradict freely; however TNG definitely doesn't supercede the TOS, which is undoubtedly the highest canon.


Later movies began selling out the ST philosophy, so I'll leave them aside as well.
Paramount and Viacom own the franchise so they get to say what is and is not canon now at least.

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Re: ST Manuals and canon

Post by Khas » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:56 pm

Actually, it's split now. Paramount owns the movies, CBS owns the TV shows.

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