StarTrek.com Canon FAQ Update!

For all your discussion of canon policies, evidentiary standards, and other meta-debate issues.

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StarTrek.com Canon FAQ Update!

Post by 2046 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:17 pm

There's news about Trek canon. See the updated FAQ info here:

http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/2006/11 ... pdate.html

Opinions?

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:50 pm

Very interesting. I see this as a keen publicity move for the most part. For some points, such as "the question of whether details from these novels remain canon is open to interpretation," this is as clear a statement as any that there is no official answer on the question of whether or not "Mosiac" and "Pathways" are still canon.

This sentence sums up everything nicely:
Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn't a single voice or arbiter to decide.

No smart publicist is going to tell fans that they can't look and see what's real Star Trek for themselves.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:06 pm

This is interesting. It is indeed a reflection on the current state of Star Trek and it's fandom that everything is now in a more fluid state and open to interpretation.

However, that being said, I see nothing here that really changes what we had before with regards to what is or is not canon. The fact that there is no "final abitrator" not withstanding. There will eventually be someone in charge of the franchise again; perhaps Abrams, perhaps someone else, but eventually someone will take over, and likely we will be back to where we were. So expect to see the FAQ language firm up again when that happens.

It is also clear from a versus debate standpoint that we still won't be using some of the non-canon Star Trek Expanded Universe material anytime soon. Which would be a good thing for the pro-Wars side given some of the power output numbers you can derive from say, the ST:TMP novelization which would at minimum peg a refit Constitution at no less than 600 exawatts output.
-Mike

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:36 pm

Well, the ST EU, like the SW EU, spreads quite a bit. Frankly, the TMP novelization is one of the pieces that would be included in some interpretations of what's canon... I mean, it's basically a novel version of the movie, and it was written by Gene Roddenberry himself, so it tends to get a lot of credit.

In general, though, the ST EU doesn't tend to support the problematic low figures. For example, take a couple Diane Duane novels*. "Intellivore," the E-D prepares a quick planetbuster bomb to take out a brain-eating world the size of Earth; in "Dark Mirror," Diane Duane rattles off power figures and implies speeds that would make any minimalist cringe.

*For those of you unfamiliar with Trek EU, Diane Duane has written lots of Trek... as Memory Alpha puts it, "Diane Duane has worked with Star Trek in perhaps the most forms of anyone alive." Reviews of Duane's Trek novels on Amazon average 4 stars, and are typically described in the reviews as being extremely true to Trek.

So she makes a good Trek EU author to start with.

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Post by 2046 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:35 am

I've considered making a Trek non-canon section from time to time just to rub in the sheer ownage. What was that book that came out a few years back . . . the Survival Guide or something. It made the E2ICS firepower figures look like it was describing a fireworks stand.

One thing that StarTrek.com writers seem to be pushing is the TAS canonicity issue. I'm not really cool with the idea of it being canon, myself, though it would make for some interesting elements. Given that it's closer to being live-action Trek than the novels, maybe I oughta whip out my old VHS tapes and take a peek at what it would mean if they were canonized. The phaser defense thingy on the bridge ceiling might be interesting, not to mention a shot I recall where Spock phasers a moat around himself and Kirk to protect them from a hostile mob.

But of course, then we'd be stuck with that Giant Kevorkian guy or whatever.

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Post by GStone » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:35 pm

The Survival Guide, huh? That makes it buyable, if it's true, just to see how wanked out it is.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:19 pm

There are plenty of times in TAS where the ship does absolutely wanked out things. For instance, in "The Magicks of Megas-tu", the E-1701 start off the episode exploring the center of the galaxy:

http://www.danhausertrek.com/AnimatedSeries/Mtu.html


Given that TAS still apparently takes place during the original 5-year mission, at most the ship took months, perhaps a year to get there and back from the galaxy's center, or a speed of no less than 25,000c average!


In "Beyond the Farthest Star", the E-1701 under the control of the malevolent energy being, vaporizes the alien derelict, which is several miles long with a single short burst from the phasers:

http://www.danhausertrek.com/AnimatedSe ... dShip.html

Given it's size and all, this is a rather impressive feat of effective firepower!
-Mike

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:01 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:There are plenty of times in TAS where the ship does absolutely wanked out things. For instance, in "The Magicks of Megas-tu", the E-1701 start off the episode exploring the center of the galaxy:

http://www.danhausertrek.com/AnimatedSeries/Mtu.html


Given that TAS still apparently takes place during the original 5-year mission, at most the ship took months, perhaps a year to get there and back from the galaxy's center, or a speed of no less than 25,000c average!
Actually, this would have been perfectly normal in TOS. (And, of course, STV involves a visit to the center of the galaxy as well.)

You may recall that in "Where No Man Has Gone Before," "By Any Other Name," "Is There In Truth No Beauty," and "Day of the Dove," the Enterprise exits the galaxy (sometimes while hijacked) and must return under its own power. Further, "A Piece of the Action" is "near the edge of the galaxy" according to dialogue.

In TOS, the Enterprise was traipsing around the galaxy, not some little piece here or there.
In "Beyond the Farthest Star", the E-1701 under the control of the malevolent energy being, vaporizes the alien derelict, which is several miles long with a single short burst from the phasers:

http://www.danhausertrek.com/AnimatedSe ... dShip.html

Given it's size and all, this is a rather impressive feat of effective firepower!
-Mike
At the same time, that's not really much more material than was vaporized in, say, "Masks," and pales in comparison to some of the TOS derived weapon yields. You may recall that the Romulans did away with a solid chunk of nickel-iron asteroid that makes that look like seaweed - with two torpedos. I haven't really seen much in TAS that wouldn't be right at home in TOS - granted, I'm not as familiar with TAS as I'd like to be, but still, I think you're forgetting just how things were in TOS.

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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:22 am

That's true, the TOS Enterprise definately had some serious speed and firepower, it easily out guns an ICS Acclamator. That might have something to do with its ant-matter being in gross violation of E=MC^2 (Obsession-TOS).

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:49 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:There are plenty of times in TAS where the ship does absolutely wanked out things. For instance, in "The Magicks of Megas-tu", the E-1701 start off the episode exploring the center of the galaxy:

http://www.danhausertrek.com/AnimatedSeries/Mtu.html


Given that TAS still apparently takes place during the original 5-year mission, at most the ship took months, perhaps a year to get there and back from the galaxy's center, or a speed of no less than 25,000c average!
Jedi Master Spock wrote:

Actually, this would have been perfectly normal in TOS. (And, of course, STV involves a visit to the center of the galaxy as well.)

You may recall that in "Where No Man Has Gone Before," "By Any Other Name," "Is There In Truth No Beauty," and "Day of the Dove," the Enterprise exits the galaxy (sometimes while hijacked) and must return under its own power. Further, "A Piece of the Action" is "near the edge of the galaxy" according to dialogue.

I'am well aware of those examples, as I often bring them up myself, JMS. The "By Any Other Name" example is an oddity, and is self-contradicting. For one thing, Kirk tells Rojan that it would take the Enterprise "thousands of years" to reach Andromeda, which is interestingly enough in-line with the backstage warp speed charts. Even with the Kelvin enhancements, the ship still needs nearly 300 years to even get there (8000-9000c). However, as you point out, the Enterpise is able to traverse to the edge of the galaxy in a relatively short period of time, suggesting even higher speeds.

In "Day of the Dove", the ship never actually leaves the galaxy as we can tell, but is on a course that will take it out of the galaxy if nothing is done.
Fairly late into the episode Kirk records this statement in his log:


"The Enterprise is heading out of our galaxy,
controlled by a mysterious alien
somewhere aboard the ship."


At no point is the ship stated to be actually near the edge of the galaxy or having left. It is in the process of heading out. What the "The Magicks of Megas-tu" example gives us only reinforces the high-end speeds for ST ships.

In "Beyond the Farthest Star", the E-1701 under the control of the malevolent energy being, vaporizes the alien derelict, which is several miles long with a single short burst from the phasers:

http://www.danhausertrek.com/AnimatedSe ... dShip.html

Given it's size and all, this is a rather impressive feat of effective firepower!
-Mike
Jedi Master Spock wrote:

At the same time, that's not really much more material than was vaporized in, say, "Masks," and pales in comparison to some of the TOS derived weapon yields. You may recall that the Romulans did away with a solid chunk of nickel-iron asteroid that makes that look like seaweed - with two torpedos.

In "Masks" the E-D is vaporizing water ice and other volatiles, and rather slowly at that compared to what the E-1701 does to the alien ship in BtFS. The alien ship's hull is so strong that it even impresses Scotty, suggesting a rather high order of firepower. The Romulan plasma torpedo firepower was also considered highly unusual in it's power at that time.
-Mike

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