What's accepted SW canon?

[KirkSkyWalker]

It is canon until Lucas Licensing says it isn't...

C-canon.

I'm talking about canon for the purposes of our discussion here-- and I'm also talking about what JMS has said. Unless JMS says that anything but G-canon is valid, then it isn't.

On this very site, JMS uses the EU in his SW analysis, and in debates as well, and only ignores or tries to rationalize the EU when it contradicts the highest canon, like the fighter's KT weapons...

Thus one arguing something from the EU as valid canon, must prove that it doesn't contradict G-canon; and the only way to do that, is to stick to what's already in the G-canon anyway.

That's why it's a separate universe, logically as well as officially.

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, maybe that's really the way it is to George Lucas, but that's not the way it is to a lot of the LFL employees as well as the to many of the fans in the Versus debate. That's why in the OP of your topic thread you should state that the EU (ICS) is not allowed as evidence. But many other people will allow the EU (in particular the ICS) in their thread's OP, thus we have a whole thread in the Trek/Wars section dedicated to how the ICS is contradicted by the EU as well as the TCW CGI series, and the movies.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Thus one arguing something from the EU as valid canon, must prove that it doesn't contradict G-canon; and the only way to do that, is to stick to what's already in the G-canon anyway.

That's why it's a separate universe, logically as well as officially.

I disagree, as the EU adds a lot of information on the SW universe, and is also called SW, so it fits with the SW universe.
And if the debater can show it doesn't contradict higher canon, then the information is valid.
For example, Boba's death.
Nothing in G-Canon clearly states he is dead.
All we have is Boba Fett fall in the Sarlacc pit, still fully armored, and still with some hidden weapons on his person, and we know for a fact that the Sarlacc doesn't kill you immediately, but slowly digests you.
While it may have ways to immobilize unarmored opponents, Boba Fett was armored, so he may have had some way of getting out...
G-canon doesn't say he didn't, so if the lower canon says he did, then he did...

And as Mike said, the creator of the vs thread decides what is acceptable or not, so if the creator says "all EU", then the entire EU is accepted...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Thus one arguing something from the EU as valid canon, must prove that it doesn't contradict G-canon; and the only way to do that, is to stick to what's already in the G-canon anyway.

That's why it's a separate universe, logically as well as officially.

I disagree, as the EU adds a lot of information on the SW universe, and is also called SW, so it fits with the SW universe.

By that token, fanfic is canon too.

And if the debater can show it doesn't contradict higher canon, then the information is valid.

But the only way to do that "proving a negative," that it doesn't contradict anything in the G-canon, is to cite G-canon precdent; so it's a circular argument, as this renders the EU-canon superfluous.

For example, Boba's death.
Nothing in G-Canon clearly states he is dead.

Lucas says he's dead; and your differing with this, says that you think you know more than Lucas about what's G-canon.
But by definition, you can't know more than him about what's G-canon, since G-caon is whatver he says is G-canon.
Ergo, you're wrong-- and since it's G-canon that Fett's dead, then his living on in the EU is proof that it's a different universe (if you need more than the word of Lucas on that point.

And as Mike said, the creator of the vs thread decides what is acceptable or not, so if the creator says "all EU", then the entire EU is accepted...

Yes, maybe that's really the way it is to George Lucas, but that's not the way it is to a lot of the LFL employees as well as the to many of the fans in the Versus debate. That's why in the OP of your topic thread you should state that the EU (ICS) is not allowed as evidence. But many other people will allow the EU (in particular the ICS) in their thread's OP, thus we have a whole thread in the Trek/Wars section dedicated to how the ICS is contradicted by the EU as well as the TCW CGI series, and the movies.
-Mike

It's pretty chaotic if every thread has its own canon-policy; that pretty much obviates all discussion, since then the OP can dictate facts as well.
A threa is not a separate universe, and an original poster is not its God.

Lucas is the creator and licensor of SW, and therefore he's the final word on what's canon; he didn't sign off on the rights to SW to LFL, just the EU.
So LFL can do whatever it wants, and it stays a separate universe. If some fans want to pretend the EU is the same universe as G-cnanon, that' s cool-- they can believe in the Easter Bunny too.

[Mr. Oragahn]

KSW reminds me of the old me when it came to SW canon years ago.
Since at SBC talking about canon was dangerous, at some point I got used to deal with the EU and attack the ICS using the same EU as ammo. By now, I'm used to the EU just like I was in the late 90s, before holding a short lived purist stance. This whole canon debate on SW was so getting old that it was just easier to say there are two canons and that's it, with the second and larger canon requiring dismissing a few of Lucas' comments in order to accept a different but larger picture.
By now, the amount of material that's called Star Wars and largely enjoyed is so huge that trying to talk about canon to people and what's true Star Wars solely based on arcane statements made a long time ago just strike me as retarded and a waste of time.
I moved on.

[The Dude]

And this folks is why debating anything to do with SW is totally boring and useless. Theres always some wanker who wants to turn it into a canon semantics game.

[KirkSkyWalker]

And this folks is why debating anything to do with SW is totally boring and useless. Theres always some wanker who wants to turn it into a canon semantics game.

Translation: "Agree with me against all logic, or I flame you."

Nice way to turn this board into SDN, spreading your hate all over the internet-- and all discussion into fanfic between arrested toddlers throwing tantrums because you can't stand the logical conclusion of a reasonable canon-policy.

And I QUOTE:

for you people who ask why I don't take the moral high ground and adopt a firm, restrained, mature tone when dealing with these people, I would like to remind you that we are talking about whether the Empire would kick the Federation's ass! What the hell does maturity have to do with this? To most of its participants, this debate is a vacation from maturity. Those of us who have done this for a long time judge each others' efforts on skill and knowledge, as well as scientific accuracy and logical consistency. Maturity is simply a red herring, and as far as I'm concerned, the very idea of a "mature" Star Wars vs Star Trek debate is outlandish. In my experience, people start whining about "maturity" when they're trying to distract the audience from the fact that they're getting their asses kicked.

SDN trolls are a dime-a-dozen; go back there where you belong.

[KirkSkyWalker]

KSW reminds me of the old me when it came to SW canon years ago.

Nice autobiographical snippet; but if you think that it's possible to have a reasoned debate based on canon without a reasonable canon-policy, then you're clearly reviewing yourself in a hagiographical manner.

[The Dude]

And this folks is why debating anything to do with SW is totally boring and useless. Theres always some wanker who wants to turn it into a canon semantics game.

Translation: "Agree with me against all logic, or I flame you."

Nice way to turn this board into SDN, spreading your hate all over the internet-- and all discussion into fanfic between arrested toddlers throwing tantrums because you can't stand the logical conclusion of a reasonable canon-policy.

And I QUOTE:

for you people who ask why I don't take the moral high ground and adopt a firm, restrained, mature tone when dealing with these people, I would like to remind you that we are talking about whether the Empire would kick the Federation's ass! What the hell does maturity have to do with this? To most of its participants, this debate is a vacation from maturity. Those of us who have done this for a long time judge each others' efforts on skill and knowledge, as well as scientific accuracy and logical consistency. Maturity is simply a red herring, and as far as I'm concerned, the very idea of a "mature" Star Wars vs Star Trek debate is outlandish. In my experience, people start whining about "maturity" when they're trying to distract the audience from the fact that they're getting their asses kicked.

SDN trolls are a dime-a-dozen; go back there where you belong.

*sigh* In case you hadn't noticed, its you thats been behaving in a rude and obnoxious manner. I will actually discuss ST VS SW with folks who are willing to have an actual discussion. Your not that guy, your just interested in pushing your interpretation of canon on everyone.

Its incredibly boring to tread the same ground for years on end.

And just for the record, I don't give two figs what is and is not canon. If someone wants to discuss G canon only, no problem. But to me, its a meaningless concept. Mostly because its been used for years by folks intent on pushing whatever agenda they have.

[KirkSkyWalker]

That's what a typical person with a very low IQ thinks, i.e. wishfully-- thus your complete ignorance of the phrase "against all logic," which is also why you find the truth defamatory.

[The Dude]

That's what a typical person with a very low IQ thinks, i.e. wishfully-- thus your complete ignorance of the phrase "against all logic," which is also why you find the truth defamatory.

What in the world are you blithering about man?

I simply don't care what is G, T, C or any other canon.

As for defamation, I haven't a clue what you are talking about.

[KirkSkyWalker]

And I'm sure if you sit on a jury, you don't give two figs about the law, either; you just care about what you think the verdict should be based on purely subjective criteria-- but obviously this would make for a very chaotic world ruled on whim.

And just as obviously, it's impossible to have a fair or reasonable debate, if people can't agree on the rules regarding what's allowed and what isn't. Likewise, the rules have to be deduced logically; otherwise, anyone can make up their own regardless of agreement, via subjective extrapolation.

Even SDN agrees on this-- i.e. they agree that Lucas is the final word; they simply can't think straight enough-- or read English well enough-- to realize that Lucas isn't saying what SDN claims they're saying; no matter what Lucas says that "the EU is a separate universe," they just hear what they want to hear.

But f you ask whether the EU is part of the same universe as the films, then you have to prepared for the answer to be "no."

Therefore, it's a question of whether Lucas is the final word on what's included in the film-universe-- and here again the answer must be a definite "yes," since he was the original decider of such questions, and all answers flow from his original intent regarding it.

So the events of the EU might be the same as those in the fim, but it's not the other way around-- i.e. the film-universe is the master-universe, to which the EU must adapt; but it doesn't necessarily include any of the events of the EU which aren't in the films.
If they were all part of the same universe, then of course it would be a necessary relationship between the events-- i.e. they'd be one in the same. But they're not, so they aren't... thus the term Expanded UNIVERSE-- get it?
It's a different universe, and it's expanded from the film-one.
Thus, the term alone implies what I'm already saying.

[Praeothmin]

By that token, fanfic is canon too.

If the fanfic is authorized by and has been published by LucasArts or LucasFilmsLicensing (LFL), then it is part of the C-canon, and is thus canon.
If it has not been authorized by LucasArts, then it is not canon.
This is actually quite simple...

But the only way to do that "proving a negative," that it doesn't contradict anything in the G-canon, is to cite G-canon precdent; so it's a circular argument, as this renders the EU-canon superfluous.

No, it does not.
How many times must we repeat this?
Example:
Firepower. If the books say Gigatons, but the movies show otherwise, then it is clearly contradicted, and thus may be ignored.
If a book says Palpatine had 20 wives, and the movie never mentions anything about Palpatine's personal life, then the information does not contradict anything in the movies.
Why can't you understand that?

Lucas says he's dead; and your differing with this, says that you think you know more than Lucas about what's G-canon.

Lucas is not G-canon, the movies he worked on are G-canon, and when Lucas makes a movie set after RotJ that states that Boba is dead, then we will have to believe he is.
In the meantime, books authorized by LFL say he's alive, so he is.
This does not directly contradict anything in the movies.
If you believe otherwise, please feel free to prove it with facts, not your personal opinion...

[The Dude]

lol

"Hey if you sit on a jury you must not care about the law because you don't care about what is and is not canon in a fictional universe."



Riiiiight.

[Mr. Oragahn]

KSW reminds me of the old me when it came to SW canon years ago.

Nice autobiographical snippet; but if you think that it's possible to have a reasoned debate based on canon without a reasonable canon-policy, then you're clearly reviewing yourself in a hagiographical manner.

I can switch back and forth between purist and completist policies at will, as long as it makes an entertaining and interesting discussion.
I have to point out that the purist policy I speak of is the one which was used for ages, the one that accepts everything from the films to their novelizations and radio dramas.
I'm not even sure I'd take comic adaptations, but why not? TCWS is added to that now, but I'm not sure if they have comic adaptations of each episode. I wouldn't see the point. At best I figure it would be a glorified collection of screencaps slapped into an insulting paperback.
I see that the purist description made halfway during the last decade has been identifying the movies as the unique source of super, greater higher canon, the pure, the only one.
Well I'm not going with that when I'm in purist mode. As I'm honest, I also admit that the completist view requires ignoring a few statements made by Lucas in order to "pretend" that the whole thing is one big family, and solely focus on the material Lucas provides as part of the entertainment (movies, novelizations). Example: For the EU, his DVD commentaries -> dustbin.
For the purist: his commentaries = lick slurp gospel amen.