SB.com ICS thread

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:03 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:The banning of Point45 leaves me slightly blinking; by the time CommanderRazor acted, nothing had changed for a while, and the rest of you were flaming back at him in full measure, insult for insult. Granted, he is still very bad at debate (I debated Point45 for some time on ST.com) so it was probably justified by the codex of SB.com debate-specific rules in addition to traditional "flaming" rules.
So you actually did had a discussion with him. Well, an attempt at would be more apt I guess?
The point was that he's troll, purely and simple. Denial, lies, strawmen, red herring, back pedaling, self contradictions and the lot, and then calling people names was just the crux of his style.

I actually contacted CR some hours before the hammer fell on 45, pointing out 45's final attack as an attempt to reboot the whole thread by pretending no evidence and above all, no statements of contradiction were presented.
When he started, weeks ago, to pretend that I was not right on any point against Leo1 in my multi-post replies to specific points (page 6 and page 9 for me), I knew we wouldn't go anywhere.
I'm still waiting for Leo to actually address those points.
FLAK also got much more support than ever, especially with the long ignored Cloud Car incident, and as per our own very thread here about all sources not agreeing with the ICS, we covered a good many of them at SB.

That said, it's been a nice thread because for the first time in years, we could actually see people point to the explosions and other damages displayed in the movies which usually get ignored, take them at face value in general, and stand ground against the usual claims of firepower being 6 OoMs superior, notably for cases involving fighter cannons, and much more OoMs for bigger ships' cannons and shields.

There still are points which remain up in the air, like what's really used for fuel by most starships, what's the real deal with Holonet and shields, the real linear accelerations abilities now that mass lightening is made fact, and many other points.
I'm not sure, but while watching the latest ICS threads, I think SB.com moderation might have become a little less biased regarding ICS threads. I was amazed to see the discussion not locked down.
Probably because it was obvious that, first, not only there actually was a reason and matter to argue against the ICS, but secondly, there were more people doing so, and thirdly, doing so by presenting several arguments and solid evidence.
It was rather clear that letting the debate roll out naturally was the best way to prove that neutrality still exists.
There's obviously a point when the house of cards would crumble. You just needed the little push.

I would have prefered the SB debate not to partly turn into what looked like an opposition between delegates from SJFN and delegates from SDN, with SB as a pseudo neutral terrain of discussion where opinions sway one way or the other depending on the populace and the moderation.

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Post by Mith » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:45 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Towards the end of thread 2 it was getting to the point where I wasn't willing to give the arguments a fair read-through. Too high a ratio of noise to signal.
Same here. At most I'd just read what anyone responding to the opposition was reading unless I wanted clarification.

I will say, though, Mith - I think you've gotten a bit better at the VS debate stuff in the past year.
Well, only place to go is up-

Wait, how would you know that?
The banning of Point45 leaves me slightly blinking; by the time CommanderRazor acted, nothing had changed for a while, and the rest of you were flaming back at him in full measure, insult for insult. Granted, he is still very bad at debate (I debated Point45 for some time on ST.com) so it was probably justified by the codex of SB.com debate-specific rules in addition to traditional "flaming" rules.
To be fair, I think it may have been the situation and not the actions. Most of us probably didn't report him simply because we didn't want the thread shut down. Thankfully, when there were complaints filed, Razor was lenient and didn't take it out on the entire thread.

But really, I suspect that Razor really just wasn't reading it. I don't mean to sound like he wasn't doing his job, because there was a lot of stuff to pile through. As I noted when I lost my last post, it was taking three hours to sort through 45's stuff, checking other sources, looking for pics, and double checking his post and my last post to ensure I knew wht he was talking about (massive discussions can get confusing for me if I get a one liner or something vague, so if I don't know what exactly said person is talking about, I may simply respond to the comment and that basically leads to me falling for strawmans, circular logic, or whatever). Not to mention that the vast majority of the posts were nothing more than repeating the same stuff over and over again.

So Razor was probably only reading stuff when it got to the point of someone calling in a moderator for flames and what not. I can't blame him, I can't remember much about Razor before he became a moderator, but I could never remember him being a big SW or ST fan, so such a discussion probably wasn't all that interesting to him to begin with.

Of course, thinking back to my first few threads, my debating skills weren't much better, but I did know when my argument had been axed to death. Such as the asteroid scene issue, where 45 kept insisting that I was suggesting that Anakin would kill his own men...despite my repeated stated stance on how that wasn't what I was saying at all. I'm thinking that perhaps Razor just thought that 45 was new and had some rough edges. I'm willing to bet that some of the mods gave me similar leniency when I was new.
I'm not sure, but while watching the latest ICS threads, I think SB.com moderation might have become a little less biased regarding ICS threads. I was amazed to see the discussion not locked down.
Again, that may be Razor's doing, but I do think the bias issues have slowly melted away. I think it could just be that SB is becoming more of its own site, rather than just another place for Wong and his buddies to hide.

I think that its because at one point ST vs SW died. It honestly just stopped mattering, so people had to find other things to talk about. When warsies came to realize that the pro trek debators (not to mention anyone else who challenged ICS) weren't actually trolls, they probably began to respect them because they weren't under Wong's biased thumb. Without the typical "Trekkies are retarded trolls" you begin to lose the biased viewpoint...and those that do not are going to be called on it by neutral or former biased parties.

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Post by Mith » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:46 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote:The banning of Point45 leaves me slightly blinking; by the time CommanderRazor acted, nothing had changed for a while, and the rest of you were flaming back at him in full measure, insult for insult. Granted, he is still very bad at debate (I debated Point45 for some time on ST.com) so it was probably justified by the codex of SB.com debate-specific rules in addition to traditional "flaming" rules.
So you actually did had a discussion with him. Well, an attempt at would be more apt I guess?
The point was that he's troll, purely and simple. Denial, lies, strawmen, red herring, back pedaling, self contradictions and the lot, and then calling people names was just the crux of his style.

I actually contacted CR some hours before the hammer fell on 45, pointing out 45's final attack as an attempt to reboot the whole thread by pretending no evidence and above all, no statements of contradiction were presented.
When he started, weeks ago, to pretend that I was not right on any point against Leo1 in my multi-post replies to specific points (page 6 and page 9 for me), I knew we wouldn't go anywhere.
I'm still waiting for Leo to actually address those points.
FLAK also got much more support than ever, especially with the long ignored Cloud Car incident, and as per our own very thread here about all sources not agreeing with the ICS, we covered a good many of them at SB.

That said, it's been a nice thread because for the first time in years, we could actually see people point to the explosions and other damages displayed in the movies which usually get ignored, take them at face value in general, and stand ground against the usual claims of firepower being 6 OoMs superior, notably for cases involving fighter cannons, and much more OoMs for bigger ships' cannons and shields.
It really, really has been a very nice thread. Just taking a look back at it, we owe it all to l33t starting the thread, some sort of conflict with Face if I recall. Although, I do notice that he eventually bowed out of the debate. Not to mention that JCS, Vympel (is that his name?), and Leo have all silently left the debate. I wonder if they're in fact just taking a break or are actually going to come back to the table and address the issue?

In any case, I suggest we all make sure we have copies of the links to all three threads. We don't want someone forgetting that the thread occured or that they are free to take up the challenge of disproving the contradictions.
There still are points which remain up in the air, like what's really used for fuel by most starships, what's the real deal with Holonet and shields, the real linear accelerations abilities now that mass lightening is made fact, and many other points.
I made a point to this against 45. They do use the holonet through their shields, as we saw in the Clone Wars movie where the admiral's ship was doing battle against the frigates over the planet. They in fact, even patched the Jedi to Coruscant, allowing Yoda to bring in reinforcements. Later in that same movie, we even learn that a Venator can lower part of its shields to allow the Twilight inside. Logically, if they have the technology to lower their shields around a small part of the ship, they should naturally be able to make a design for something like communications; ie, lowering the shields around the transmitters to allow for its use.

Really, the whole idea of them having to lower shields to communicate is nothing short of a fabrication to protect ICS.
Probably because it was obvious that, first, not only there actually was a reason and matter to argue against the ICS, but secondly, there were more people doing so, and thirdly, doing so by presenting several arguments and solid evidence.
It was rather clear that letting the debate roll out naturally was the best way to prove that neutrality still exists.
There's obviously a point when the house of cards would crumble. You just needed the little push.
We were fortunate that we had more people showing up to argue against ICS. I honestly can't recall the last time the three of us actually debated in the same thread for so long over an SW issue before. Most of the time it's usually just one or two people against arguing against ICS and for the most part, only one stays to argue the issue until the end.

The Clone Wars was also a great help, as well as the Death Star novel in disproving the floating turd that was ICS.
I would have prefered the SB debate not to partly turn into what looked like an opposition between delegates from SJFN and delegates from SDN, with SB as a pseudo neutral terrain of discussion where opinions sway one way or the other depending on the populace and the moderation.
There really isn't anything that we can do about that. People will naturally gravitate to the groups that agree with them, and when two opposing groups clash on a neutral site, that is the result. Really, the locals coming in and actually taking our side in the matter is a good sign that our arguments were convincing enough for them to reconsider ICS.

I'm actually more surprised that we didn't get more people from SD.net to argue against the our claims. I half expected a poorly veiled invasion of the thread.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:04 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote:The banning of Point45 leaves me slightly blinking; by the time CommanderRazor acted, nothing had changed for a while, and the rest of you were flaming back at him in full measure, insult for insult. Granted, he is still very bad at debate (I debated Point45 for some time on ST.com) so it was probably justified by the codex of SB.com debate-specific rules in addition to traditional "flaming" rules.
So you actually did had a discussion with him. Well, an attempt at would be more apt I guess?
The point was that he's troll, purely and simple. Denial, lies, strawmen, red herring, back pedaling, self contradictions and the lot, and then calling people names was just the crux of his style.
The audience at ST.com was if anything less patient with him than the audience at SB.com, and since ST.com doesn't have "VS debating rules," simply the usual rules about good behavior, there was nobody threatening me with banning when I would curtly cut his post off at the knees and say that those objections/claims had already been stated better over in this post and already addressed over in that post. IIRC, his posts didn't get very long in debating on ST.com.
Mith wrote:I made a point to this against 45. They do use the holonet through their shields, as we saw in the Clone Wars movie where the admiral's ship was doing battle against the frigates over the planet.
We saw this very explicitly regarding military holographic communications with Order 66 in Revenge of the Sith. When Order 66 went out, everybody seemed to get the holographic talking-Palpatine - even fighters in the middle of a dogfight, which certainly would have shields up as a matter of course. We've seen audio comms through shields in ANH and ROTJ as well, and the difference between that and a grainy blue hologram is a trivial order of magnitude or two in bandwidth. Not a worthwhile concern.

Moreover, Order 66 is a long range call, not a short-range tactical line of communication as we saw in the asteroid field in TESB. And as the TV show continues, we'll see more and more examples of communications through shields, I expect.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I would have prefered the SB debate not to partly turn into what looked like an opposition between delegates from SJFN and delegates from SDN, with SB as a pseudo neutral terrain of discussion where opinions sway one way or the other depending on the populace and the moderation.
Both l33telboi and Mith have been members of SB.com for longer than they've been members of SFJ. ICS debates on SB.com in the past have seemed - from what I've seen - largely like debates between SDN delegates and the disorganized opposition. The only difference is that SFJ has for some time been a collecting ground for that disorganized opposition, and so it no longer seems quite so disorganized.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:11 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Considering how SDN is under a complete comatose when it comes to real challenging discussions regarding SW, and seeing how they consider the ASVS topic to be settled, it's actually a miracle that some of their people poked their heads.

Besides, Vympel is Leo1.
I'm truly amazed at seeing the SB.com thread you linked to there; that has to be the first time in a long time where a mod there has actually delivered the smack down to a Warsie like Vympel/Leo1, and over ICS no less! There my be hope for that forum now. Of course people are probably becoming a little bit fed up with the lies and BS that have been rammed down every one's throats for the past 6 or 7 years since AOTC:ICS was first published. But gradually those once thought to be solid numbers have been steadily chipped away at and exposed for the baseless fanwankery they really are... and all to win a relatively minor internet debate.

My hats off to CommanderRazor for his action against Vympel/Leo1.

I think in no large part the progress that is gradually pulling this debate out of the Dark Ages of the past few years is the arrival on the scene of the Clone Wars CGI series and the showing of SW firepower that is many, many orders of magnitude less than the ICS books.

By the way, I really think that those diagrams of the asteroid destruction ought to be saved and refined as they help illustrate a few very interesting points on the TLs' mechanics. Not brought up there as far as I can tell is that the red sparkles are exactly the same as the "Flak Effect" seen in the Avenger/Falcon chase scene in which no asteroids get hit. This suggests that whatever it is that TLs do, it is not entirely a direct energy/work-heating one.

You also cited my scaling of the TESB asteroids using the width of the asteroids as opposed to the length. That much is correct, however the scaling produced asteroid diameters that can range from as little as 1 meter to as much as 14 meters. The latter being Kane Starkiller's scaling from the old Strek vs Swars forum from several years ago. The mean average is 7-8 meters, which is where I derived the 16 TJ energy requirement (based on the generous assumption of the vaporization of spherical solid iron asteroids).
-Mike

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:05 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote: The audience at ST.com was if anything less patient with him than the audience at SB.com, and since ST.com doesn't have "VS debating rules," simply the usual rules about good behavior, there was nobody threatening me with banning when I would curtly cut his post off at the knees and say that those objections/claims had already been stated better over in this post and already addressed over in that post. IIRC, his posts didn't get very long in debating on ST.com.
A pity the old Strek vs Swars forum isn't better archived. A similar thing happened there as well because right from the get-go Vympel couldn't fall back on ICS since the rules at that time did not allow anything but the movies, novelizations, screenplays, and NPR radio play adaptations for SW. He and many of the other pro-Wars people participating there actually had to make valid arguments for high SW firepower and power generation
figures.
-Mike

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Post by Mith » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:09 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote: The audience at ST.com was if anything less patient with him than the audience at SB.com, and since ST.com doesn't have "VS debating rules," simply the usual rules about good behavior, there was nobody threatening me with banning when I would curtly cut his post off at the knees and say that those objections/claims had already been stated better over in this post and already addressed over in that post. IIRC, his posts didn't get very long in debating on ST.com.
A pity the old Strek vs Swars forum isn't better archived. A similar thing happened there as well because right from the get-go Vympel couldn't fall back on ICS since the rules at that time did not allow anything but the movies, novelizations, screenplays, and NPR radio play adaptations for SW. He and many of the other pro-Wars people participating there actually had to make valid arguments for high SW firepower and power generation
figures.
-Mike
I wonder what happened to them, since during the last example of that debate, he was mainly trying to pass of an argument for the UFP having only 2-5 MT level weapons by using the lowest figures possible while ignoring higher examples and struggling to get a total theoretical maximum of 15 megatons from the work that I did for him (yeah, he provided worthless sources, but he failed to quantify the numbers, so I had to do it for him...its lower calcs were a few megatons).

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:33 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Mith wrote:I made a point to this against 45. They do use the holonet through their shields, as we saw in the Clone Wars movie where the admiral's ship was doing battle against the frigates over the planet.
We saw this very explicitly regarding military holographic communications with Order 66 in Revenge of the Sith. When Order 66 went out, everybody seemed to get the holographic talking-Palpatine - even fighters in the middle of a dogfight, which certainly would have shields up as a matter of course.
I don't recall any single evidence of a fighter with shields up receiving the holocomm. Plo Koon could have been flying around with shields down, around territories which were under control. We can't tell for sure.
And the capital ships or other smaller shisp could act as relays. The problem being that in fact, it seems people don't know if it's the subspace comms, or the hyperwaves which are blocked by the shields.
We've seen audio comms through shields in ANH and ROTJ as well, and the difference between that and a grainy blue hologram is a trivial order of magnitude or two in bandwidth. Not a worthwhile concern.
Obviously, it would seem that audio comms have no problem, indeed, to pass through shields. SW sources would tell us that such audio comms travel via subspace (which is different than hyperspace/hyperwaves).
And there's obviously the use of communications devices on planets, which proves that subspace comms, if they're subspace comms, are not hampered by gravity fields.
However JC, Interrupted argued that subspace comms were blocked by shields.
With hyperwaves hampered by gravity, a planet with shields up would be incapable of establishing communications.
This is rather absurd, of course, since mere traditional forms of communications, light, would pass through shields without problem. A relay outside of the planet's shields, as in Zahn's trilogy, would have solved the issue. The infrastructures on the ground would communicate via normal radio to the relay, which based on the distance, would have no lag, and the relay would transfer that into hyperwaves.

It would seem that it's the hyperwaves which are at pain.
Unless one would prove that what looks like basic comms done between individuals and ships on short ranges don't involve subspace, but mere EMcomms.
Moreover, Order 66 is a long range call, not a short-range tactical line of communication as we saw in the asteroid field in TESB. And as the TV show continues, we'll see more and more examples of communications through shields, I expect.
A very useful example would be an undisputable incident of a true ad-hoc holocomm (no relay at all) between very distant people.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I would have prefered the SB debate not to partly turn into what looked like an opposition between delegates from SJFN and delegates from SDN, with SB as a pseudo neutral terrain of discussion where opinions sway one way or the other depending on the populace and the moderation.
Both l33telboi and Mith have been members of SB.com for longer than they've been members of SFJ. ICS debates on SB.com in the past have seemed - from what I've seen - largely like debates between SDN delegates and the disorganized opposition. The only difference is that SFJ has for some time been a collecting ground for that disorganized opposition, and so it no longer seems quite so disorganized.
I was present on SB as well before joining SFJN. It's just that I got banned some years ago, I didn't return until a good amount of time.
The point being that there's clearly one camp, SFJN, which was cooking arguments here and basically shifted them overseas, but I suppose we couldn't do it in another way.
That said, it's correct that before, SDN has never really faced a structured oposition, which also explains why their arguments have prevailed for so long without much coherent challenge.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:51 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mith wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Considering how SDN is under a complete comatose when it comes to real challenging discussions regarding SW, and seeing how they consider the ASVS topic to be settled, it's actually a miracle that some of their people poked their heads.

Besides, Vympel is Leo1.

Oops, I meant Lord Vespasian.=D

But I'm not that surprised. They seem like the type that would want to crush any resistance. Losing SB.com would be a major blow to their ego. I'm actually surprised that they didn't have more people pop in.
There seems to be a gradual implosion on the part of the fanatical Warsies; retreating further and further into Fortress SDN under the delusion of total victory once they got their Holy ICS Bible written codifying their fanwank for all to see. With Vympel/Leo1, they still have some hard-core fanatics patrolling the forums and newsgroups looking to quell all who oppose them. Now that the Clone Wars CGI TV series is blowing the ICS crap out of the water, it'll be very interesting to see how they'll continue to react.
-Mike
You know, it would only take a single sequence showing a Venator blowing the crap out of a planet to turn the tables.
In such trivial debates, I think what pleases most people is the return of a form of fairplay in what is nothing more than a hobby among many.
It's more like the SDN crowd, cultist in many ways, appeared to keep rehashing the same claims for the mere intention of pissing people off and insulting intelligence. Or they really believe that stuff, and then the Cult qualitative really finds its essence.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:49 am

I just saw this. It struck me as a particularly bad call, but probably related to all the hooplah over the ICS.

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Post by Praeothmin » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:34 pm

Not the way I see it.

I'm sure this was made so that no more "ICS is excluded" threads happen (he is a Warsie, after all), but the way he explained this:
Syzeta on SB.com wrote:Each of those is a separate and recognized continuity. I see no problem in saying "comic Hulk" or "Movie hulk". Distinguishing between book and movie, manga and anime and so on is all fine.
So threads that say "SW vs anything, movies only" are fine and acceptable, as long as no one brings books into account... :)
Last edited by Praeothmin on Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mith » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:48 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:I just saw this. It struck me as a particularly bad call, but probably related to all the hooplah over the ICS.
I agree, this is clearly a bullshit call that has jack shit to do with anything else aside from SW. I have no idea why's he's actually doing this, but I'm sure this shit can't fly.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:58 am

Having read through the thread, it does seem like this guy's motives for making this ruling are based on allegiance to SW, not for actually trying to resolve anything in a worthwhile manner.
-Mike

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Post by Praeothmin » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:35 pm

If I remember correctly, he was also the one behind the "Reasonable Level of Skill", or something like it.
This basically meant that, since Stormtroopers, for example, are supposed to be the SW's universe's best soldiers, they should be assumed to be reasonably competent, even though we clearly see in movies how much they suck...

Of course, he wanted it to be applied to every universe (yes, even for Redshirts), but I had found it funny that this motion had come up after a particularly long thread where people kept reminding him of how sucky the Stormtroopers were, no matter what Obi-Wan Kenobi thought of their aiming capabilities... :)

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:58 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Not the way I see it.

I'm sure this was made so that no more "ICS is excluded" threads happen (he is a Warsie, after all), but the way he explained this:
Syzeta on SB.com wrote:Each of those is a separate and recognized continuity. I see no problem in saying "comic Hulk" or "Movie hulk". Distinguishing between book and movie, manga and anime and so on is all fine.
So threads that say "SW vs anything, movies only" are fine and acceptable, as long as no one brings books into account... :)
No, because you'd have to argue that there's a recognized separation.

Hell, there's been a recent Supercube vs 2 ISDs thread which involved apocrypha material from Star Trek, and it went... well?
I'd say yes. But it didn't interest many people, for obvious reasons. Either you use ICS numbers and it's a nonsense thread, or you don't and then there's no point in the thread.

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