Spinning the ICS and SFJN on SDN

Did a related website in the community go down? Come back up? Relocate to a new address? Install pop-up advertisements?

This forum is for discussion of these sorts of issues.
GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:47 pm

Enterprise E wrote:I'd love to see the considerate fellow fans of Star Wars try to reconcile that since technically, the 200 gigaton turbolaser battery yield would still be out there. It would be interesting to see what would happen with that.
It's already started.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=99677


VT-16 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:55 am
"Even if the stats weren't there, there's nothing to suggest the earlier versions are invalid. Suck it down, morons. 8)"

Connor MacLeod Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:36 am
"But they'll try to spin the "exclusion" of the stats as proof they've been removed (IE the earlier editions are invalid.)

of course, this assumes they actually stop Publishing the previous books too. I'd be surprised if they did (I'm betting they don't!)

Of course, even if they delete the stats, there are also quite a few "non-numerical" tidbits in the ICSes (especially the ROTS:ICS) that are quantifiable. Like the magnitude-10 earthquake bit."


So, it seems that the older versions are overriding the newer versions to a couple of them, which goes against logic. If they are making changes, any deletions of hard figures would have to be thought of as no longer existing, unless another version after this compilation volume comes out with the hard figures put back in.

I'd also like to say for the record that I don't like Springstein's music.

User avatar
AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
Jedi Knight
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Six feet under the surface of some alien world

Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:42 pm

While that would be nice, I'm not holding my breath.

I found the SDN reaction to be quite humorous. We're all the equivilent to religious fanatics. Wow, thanks guys, I'm going to go home and rethink my life and realize that my entire life revolves around making Trek look better than Wars, when in fact the Empire is an indestructible juggernaut and the Federation is wimpy little communist utopia.

Nonamer
Jedi Knight
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:05 pm
Location: Outer Space

Post by Nonamer » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:46 pm

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:While that would be nice, I'm not holding my breath.

I found the SDN reaction to be quite humorous. We're all the equivilent to religious fanatics. Wow, thanks guys, I'm going to go home and rethink my life and realize that my entire life revolves around making Trek look better than Wars, when in fact the Empire is an indestructible juggernaut and the Federation is wimpy little communist utopia.
It's kinda like how fundamentalist like to paint all "evolutionists" as religious fanatics or how secularism is a religion. Strange, but the fact that they think that way tells us more about them then us.

User avatar
AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
Jedi Knight
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Six feet under the surface of some alien world

Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:54 pm

Well they got one thing right about us, "See, they're forum is a happy, friendly place!" Actually yes, it is. But not because we ban or scare off people with different points of view, but rather because JMS encourages civil discourse and discourages insulting people who aren't present.

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:59 pm

I've liked how they've criticized us for referencing Darkstar's work, when more than once in that thread alone, they've referenced Wong's work in the discussion.

I also like this part:

"As a side-note, I'm really fucking tired of all the goddamned idiots and assholes who keep saying that nothing in the film supports 200 GT turbolasers. Did they honestly not see the fucking Death Star? Are they honestly so goddamned stupid that they can't see how powerful that shit is, even if you scale it down to the size of a Pinto?"

He tries to be slick by getting a jab in, but it's more like getting hit with a wet noodle. It doesn't do jack squat.

Even if we were to assume that the DS really, truly was DET, there's no way in hell you could get any kind of ratio to figure out the difference between a SL and a TL.

Oooh, big boom stick, tiny boom stick...must be 200GTs!

Edit: I still haven't decided what they might do with the figures. I added the option with the Xeelee and photino birds just to do it. Maybe I should have added an undecided option.

User avatar
AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
Jedi Knight
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Six feet under the surface of some alien world

Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:11 pm

And Wong wonders why people call him a hypocrite. There is also the notion that people only advocate the UFP beating the Empire to spite SD.net, and that if SD.net didn't exist no one would say that Trek wins.

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:27 pm

Of course, because everything goes back to Wong. If it wasn't for him, Darkstar never would have made the arguments he posted on Wong's board, never would have made his site. So, naturally, we wouldn't be the brainless acolytes that treat him like he's the second coming and the be all and end all of the Trek/Wars debate.

And since we all know that 40,000 tons of fuel per second is perfectly logical (no matter the state of matter it's in) for a ship of the Republic's SD volume, Saxton must have just forgotten to include the space-time warp inside the SD to put it all in there (because the storage tanks are larger on the inside than the outside) because he's really the only one with any kind of degree. He's the only scientist that matters with Wong coming in second, but Saxton is more important because he's "basically determining what is and what isn't Star Wars".

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 2042
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm
Contact:

Post by 2046 » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:42 pm

"Silly Trekkies! Just as in the real world, where 1945's three meter long "Little Boy" bomb had a yield of over a dozen kilotons, the modern-day MOAB ("Mother of All Bombs"), at ten meters long, clearly has a yield of 30+ kilotons! After all, all green beams are the exact same tech, so all air-dropped cylinders should be too.

{Actual yield: 11 tons or so}

And we know we can scale for blasters, too. After all, the Death Star's superlaser assembly is what, 50km wide? And a blaster barrel is what, half a centimeter wide on the small side? So that's 50,000 meters versus 0.005. Clearly, then, the simple math you silly Trekkists can't grasp indicates that the blasters are ten million times less powerful than the Death Star, so they should output somewhere in the neighborhood of a G-type star at the very least! Didn't you see the bright flashes in the movies?

Man I love mocking Trekkie rejects. Do the world a favor and don't breed. But me and my internet board friends are so cool, we're going to stop mocking you now and get back to correcting the fictional firepower of Star Wars by yelling like hell at everyone, including its authors."

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:20 pm

Easy on the sarcasm, please. I realize that the residents of SDN have been sniping very rudely in their thread, but this is not SDN, and I'm not very interested in seeing similar material here.

To reply to some of what has been said over on SDN:

Vympel, you should have a good idea as to which little birdie I overheard chirping that Saxton wasn't writing anything new for the new ICS. If you'd care to lay claim that birdie doesn't know anything, you're welcome to, but I don't think you would.

Ghost Rider, Wong, et al, I will request for the record that you stop your dishonest propagandizing. Claiming that those who disagree with the SDN party line are uneducated is not only an argument ad hominem, but completely inaccurate - as has been previously demonstrated. I will further note that no statistically significant difference in the education levels of Trek and Wars debaters has been uncovered. It is further unlikely that any such difference exists at all.

For those of you in the peanut gallery, see here for further discussion of the issue of education.

VT-16 and others who are trying to claim that we "don't know about editors" in suggesting that Saxton's figures slipped by, I recommend you review more carefully what I said here and here about the editing process.

Any of you are welcome to come register here to discuss these with me directly rather than grumbling behind my back on another board, provided you are willing and able to follow the board rules.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5837
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:39 pm

GStone wrote:
Enterprise E wrote:I'd love to see the considerate fellow fans of Star Wars try to reconcile that since technically, the 200 gigaton turbolaser battery yield would still be out there. It would be interesting to see what would happen with that.
It's already started.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=99677


VT-16 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:55 am
"Even if the stats weren't there, there's nothing to suggest the earlier versions are invalid. Suck it down, morons. 8)"

Connor MacLeod Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:36 am
"But they'll try to spin the "exclusion" of the stats as proof they've been removed (IE the earlier editions are invalid.)

of course, this assumes they actually stop Publishing the previous books too. I'd be surprised if they did (I'm betting they don't!)

Of course, even if they delete the stats, there are also quite a few "non-numerical" tidbits in the ICSes (especially the ROTS:ICS) that are quantifiable. Like the magnitude-10 earthquake bit."


So, it seems that the older versions are overriding the newer versions to a couple of them, which goes against logic. If they are making changes, any deletions of hard figures would have to be thought of as no longer existing, unless another version after this compilation volume comes out with the hard figures put back in.

I'd also like to say for the record that I don't like Springstein's music.
I hate being right. In the The Lightspeed Turbolaser Argument thread I commented that I expected a similar reaction from at least some of the Warsies. Most disappointing, to say the least. :-/
-Mike

User avatar
l33telboi
Starship Captain
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:15 am
Location: Finland

Post by l33telboi » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:04 pm

I have to admit that it is a bit funny that SDN has had such a sudden influx of threads related to RSA and this site. 4 threads in just a week or so, with three of them being started by Wong himself. To top it off there's a thread that's started gathering rebuttals to arguments as well.

Why this sudden influx of anti-trek threads?

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:30 pm

l33telboi wrote:I have to admit that it is a bit funny that SDN has had such a sudden influx of threads related to RSA and this site. 4 threads in just a week or so, with three of them being started by Wong himself. To top it off there's a thread that's started gathering rebuttals to arguments as well.

Why this sudden influx of anti-trek threads?
He needs his fix, maybe? I don't know.

We've got Poe raising the gift of an argument, like that monkey in the Lion King raised Simba into the air when he was just a cub, waiting patiently for Wong to gently takes it into his hands, ready to bring the smackdown, but still failing miserably.

As far as the ultra dense thinggoes, there's this one thing. Wong says 'well, they won't be runing at maximum power all the time'. Well, for those that don't know, even at maximum power, that is the sustained power an engine is designed to take over a long period of time, that's why it is maximum. Going beyond that causes sever damage to the engine. You can't just have a maximum power of just one second. If the idea is that you can have it only last for a short itme, that really isn't maximum power. That's pushing the limits of stress the engine is designed to take, which is vastly different. 'Not running at maximum all the time' my ass.

As for scaling down, I'm sure you've got some confirmation on the level of particle concentraions between what's emitted through the barrel of a TL, like the heavy ones on your standard SD and what passes through each tributary channel inside the DS, as well as the final beam, especailly since we can partialy see through to the other side of the channel just before the SL fires. TL must be similar to that. I'm sure if we took a very close look, we could see through to the other side with a "cutaway view" type of thing, like they do on howstuffworks.com and a plasma torch. I await your response and if you can't get that there's sarcasm here, I'll just shake my head sadly.

I've got Vympel calling me a douchebag, but where is it written that I have to always write a damned physics paper in every sodding post? He's read plenty of my posts over the last couple of years he's tried debating with me. If I created a website and put a series of things on pages and I just said 'read this' and pointed to the pages or gave a brief synopsis, I'd be accused on not being able to debate the issue, that all I could do was just point to a segment of text and couldn't really understand what I had written. I don't have to write every tiny little detail in every post.

Vympel, I am snide and scoff at reckless unthinking.

Now, back to Wong. Wong, I'm really starting to think you can't even understand sarcasm anymore. For god's sake. Read what the conversation was about or do we have to write down little primers at the top of each post for you to get it? Honestly.

No, you aren't the cause of Darkstar's writtings, that's the point. It was sarcasm that commented on how you act. You claim an appeal to incredulity and ignore that for an engine's actual maximum power that necessitates that much fuel, using "ultra dense" fuel tanks is gonna cause fusion of the material into a solid object because of the volume of the ship itself and the space that would be taken up for all the other stuff, especially since we have a very nice shot of much of the inside being taken up by that take off/landing strip and the hanger bays. This would make the idea that the tanks are several orders of magnitude heavier a vast understatement. To be fair, Vympel did say this, but come on. We know you're holding the ep 3 ICS as a bible like object to your heart, so I'm sure you believe the concpet Vympel said. I'm also betting that there's a strong chance that you've said this at least once before, but I just don't care to try to remember when and where.

Oooooooooooooh, it' the duel of scientists!!!!!! We'll compare and you'll bitch how the list we present isn't up to snuff as you and Saxton. Boo bloody hoo. That wasn't the point. I said Saxton was in such high regard amongst your lot because of the sycophancy many of your followers show, like Darth Servo.

"Because they delude themselves into thinking the experts like Saxton and yourself are all frauds...just like the creationists do.

Experts?! Experts, you say?!

GOD, I found that bit to be hilarious. If your job and your degree makes you an expert, I got you beat. I'm an expert, TOOOOOO!!

Poe, all this "hoopla" is just us wondering how you guys might react, if things are done differently with the book.

I did like this bit, too:

"Are these people allergic to math? Are they just fucking idiots? Do they honestly think that if they don't use that kind of firepower all the time or in every type of weapon they make, they must not be capable of it?"

I find this statement ironic, given the number of times things, like warp strafing is said to not be possible just because we don't hear about it or see it as much as in TOS. Or the idea of considering grenades or body armor or bullets.

Yes, kids, we have Uncle Wong saying that if they have shown the ability to do something in the past technoligically, there's a good chance they can still do it in the present or even in the future.

So, warp strafing? Check
Bullets considered against the Borg when we know they know of bullets? Check.

I'm sure there are others, I just can't think of any right now. Next, you will hear the sound of Wong being flabbergasted with a tiny bit of babbling before coming up with something else to say.

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:51 am

GStone, please hold your temper while posting here or hold your peace. You sound like you're ranting.

Nonamer
Jedi Knight
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:05 pm
Location: Outer Space

Post by Nonamer » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:50 am

If you ask me it's better if you never go to SDN, like ever. You're emotional state will be much better off. It's not like you're missing anything valuable. ;)

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:24 pm

I wasn't ranting. I actually was giggling on the inside because I've found their responses both weird and comical.

Post Reply