Commentary on l33telboi v Balrog on SB.com

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Mike DiCenso
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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:14 am

l33telboi wrote:The thread there is a split from another thread, so most of the quotes I gave and referring too isn't even in it. Here's the post that kicked it all off.
Thanks for the link to the original thread, l33telboi. That was certainly a rather lop-sidded exchange. You giving an example in detail, and Balrog is essentially only able to really say no more than the equivalent of "Izz not so! ICS Roolz!". ;-)
-Mike

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:47 pm

I just read the entire, long-winded thread htat was linked by l33telboi, including the Moderators' interventions, and I just cannot believe what I've read.

l33telboi has been quoting, re-quoting, and re-re-quoting every darn time Balrog demanded a proof that had already been provided, while Balrog twisted his previous posts, did 180s galore, showed immense lack of merely basic logic.
Sure, he never gave any numbers, but all his arguments came too the exact thing Shrike showed with his calcs, and still Syzeta says it's l33telboi who was in the wrong, and then Cpl FaceHugger and Thanatos say that both participants deserved a ban??????

Wow!
Just... Wow!

How someone can be more biased, I do not know...

And by the way, if those blasts had been hampered even in the least the energy field (no mention of shielding), then it would have been mentioned, and they would have tried to find a weakness in the shield, not the ice...

How such an obviously logical conclusion can be missed is astounding... O_O!

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:28 pm

Split. The rest of the SB thread under discussion, for those of you not following the drama, is here in the split-and-locked thread about SW inconsistencies.

I will, for the record, suggest that further discussion be focused on the facts of the case and the question of what arguments were and were not made and whether or not the moderators acted in a biased fashion, and that simple mockery of Balrog be kept to a minimum. Please remember, this is not SDN; "mockery of stupid people" is not in our site motto.

On that topic, I don't recall seeing Cpl_Facehugger suggest that Balrog needed any moderation. He described the split material as "grossly irrelevant," which is another poor judgment call IMO, but of the moderators, only Thanatos seems to have suggested Balrog's argument was substandard, and only after a number of other SB.com posters had brought up that. I will say that Balrog did definitely pick out a pretty poor argument to attempt; the contradiction between Vector Prime and the ICS is remarkably clear.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:22 pm

I think the SB.com thread has been pretty well-summerized here by Praeothmin and JMS. It can be broken down essentially this way:


- l33telboi brings up the Vector Prime examples in response to Balrog's demands for proof.

- Balrog continueously keeps twisting what l33telboi quotes, and then demands more evidence.

- This goes on over-and-over again until Thanatos splits the thread.

-The exchange continues, this time with other particpation from other members. Shrike most notably showing just how utterly off from AoTC: ICS the VP example of Helska IV really is with some simple, but effective calculations. Balrog continues to demand more evidence from l33telboi, but when asked in return to back up his claims, he fails to do so.

- Syzeta's rather biased judgement call against l33telboi occurs.

- Things spiral down further, but other non-mod participants generally agree that the Helska IV incident is out of line with ICS, and that Balrog should stop trying to reconcile it and move on.

- Thanatos issues bans to both parties for a variety of reasons.


Does this sum things up point-by-point, or is there more that can be added?

In my opinion, I've seen Balrog's type of" debating" before; namely in a number of pro-Wars people who continuiously demand ever increasing levels of proof from the opposition, while in turn ignoring requests for proof of their claims. Conversely, when evidence is acknowleged, it is spun by the pro-Wars debater into something else, usually by snipping relevant quotations, or changing context. From what I can gather, this tactic is primarily ment to wear down the opponent until they give up, or become so fustrated that they do something foolish. Sadly in this case, it worked given l33telboi's admission to being drunk in his angry final post.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:00 am

  • A question:

    Is the Thanatos from SB.com the same as the Thanatos from SDN.net?

    If yes, then it is a pity. With his utterances on SDN.net, he has disqualified himself to be an unbiased moderator.

    To make such biased person a moderator, who has to be unbiased, is as stupid as if one would make the accused his own judge.

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:29 pm

JMS wrote:simple mockery of Balrog be kept to a minimum. Please remember, this is not SDN; "mockery of stupid people" is not in our site motto.
I never intended to make fun of Balrog, and I never stated and don't think that my post implied that I thought he was stupid.
Thickheaded, stubborn, a little dishonest, yes, but stupid?
No!

His posts aren't stupid, they simply show he will say anything for the ICS to be reconciled with Vector Prime's poor showings...
W.I.L.G.A wrote:Is the Thanatos from SB.com the same as the Thanatos from SDN.net?
He is!
But, considering who the other mods are, is it really surprising?
But we must not jump to quickly to conclusion though.
They usually pretty fair in their moderations, Thanatos more then the others from what I've seen.
Harsh?
Perhaps.
Unfair?
Usually not (I may be wrong).
Except, of course, when it comes to SW threads...
Then they usually side with the warsies, as has been seen here...

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:53 pm

Ish. I really don't enjoy it when people make threads on what debates I've been in and what's been said.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:13 am

l33telboi wrote:Ish. I really don't enjoy it when people make threads on what debates I've been in and what's been said.
Well well, I'm afraid that's more like an issue only you can solve because I think it's going to be tough to forbid other people from commenting on certain threads if they want to.
If I were you I'd rather not pay attention. What is said there is not on your behalf, you're not involved.

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:15 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:If I were you I'd rather not pay attention. What is said there is not on your behalf, you're not involved.
Yeah, I know. It's just that I never really was a big fan of the cross-board posting, so even though I'm not posting here it feels I'm somehow part of it because I'm part of the topic.

Bleh, such is life.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:52 pm

Regardless of nastiness, the two really important points that came out of that thread:

- First: that there is a relatively low-power ISD firepower incident at Helska IV, which is backed up by Han's earlier commentary about a Star Destroyer being unable to sufficently destroy the 20 km moon Dobido in 7 hours to prevent a colossal disaster on planet Sernpidal.

- Second: that said incident cannot in any rational way be reconciled with the Acclamator firepower numbers found in AoTC: ICS.

The best firepower figures you can get for an ISD or other SD's broadsides are high-megaton to low double-digit gigaton range firepower. People's attempts to hide that with BS not withstanding. Again, Vector Prime is not an affirmation of AoTC: ICS, it is a clear cut contradiction.
-Mike

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:01 pm

l33telboi wrote:It's just that I never really was a big fan of the cross-board posting, so even though I'm not posting here it feels I'm somehow part of it because I'm part of the topic.
I understand your uneasiness, and I apologize for being part of it, it's just that the bias in the linked thread was so obvious, considering the poor arguments of your debater, that I just had to comment...

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