It occurred to me it might be informative to read and summarize the entire thread. About one out of every thirteen posts cited a specific source. The discussion was actually slightly better quality than I expected; however, most of the hard looks at the nature and accuracy of sources were concentrated on Star Wars.
I've pointed out before that it looks to me like both WH40K and SW are overstated on SB.com, with higher figures out of a contradictory mass of evidence being cited and accepted mostly blindly. There's still fairly little critical examination of claims. Very few people make use of lower-end figures, or challenge high-end figures.
Warning: The summary is a little long. I'm quoteboxing it into the default 25-post "pages" to make it more readable.
p1 wrote:Post #1: New person (Join Date: 11 Apr 2008 Posts: 198) asks a very broad question about how the IoM and GE compare in... basically everything.
Post #2: Older SBer (Join Date: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2,474) says it's been done, use the search function, and then summarizes their view.
Post #5: First seriously pro-Wars debater enters (Cpl_Facehugger) saying the Empire would glass pretty much all the Imperium in short order. This is not challenged.
Post #11: Now we are up to mass-produced darktroopers for the Empire from Facehugger. Also not challenged.
Post #22: 610 gigaton figure trotted out as the traditional benchmark for WH40K firepower.
Post #25: First post actually explicitly referring to sources. Also the first post critically comparing sources and giving a reason for choosing one set of figures over another. Sure, it's about speed through the Warp, which people don't like being too certain on, but it's about time! I mentally congratulate Unhappy Anchovy (Join Date: 6 Jul 2007, Posts: 1,567) and flip the page.
p2 wrote:Post #31: A very striking unsourced assertion from Facehugger - namely, that blind hypertravel is faster than travel through the warp. Not unusually... it isn't challenged.
Post #36: Facehugger brings out the six-month-large-DS2 industrial capacity claim.
Post #42: A fairly new member (GunneySarge, Join Date: 30 Nov 2007, Posts: 619) is the first to challenge Facehugger's series of wild claims, noting a 2-5 year construction time for the DS2 from "sources he has read."
Post #45: Consequences enters the fray, claiming a million member worlds for the Old Republic and suggests that the GE "could" produce quadrillions of ISDs and demands that pro-WH40K forces in the thread produce evidence.
Post #48: In reply, Inquisitor Ryan says there are 20,000 forgeworlds capable of producing a new multi-km ship every year, possibly 2-3 a year.
p3 wrote:Post #52: Foamy points out that Xizor's is almost certainly not the only shipping company involved with the DS2 project.
Post #57: Gamesguy claims that the Empire had 25,000 ISD mk IIs.
Post #58: Stratigo is the first to mention that SW canon is not entirely consistent as he expresses doubt about Imperial industry.
Post #63: A couple warships per year per forgeworld is dubbed "low end," and for the first time someone requests that a pro-Wars debater actually provide a source. (Mjolnir, replying to Gamesguy #57).
Post #64: Gamesguy makes the second post in the thread to cite a source, although he does so incorrectly. (The correct line is twenty five thousand star destroyers, not 25K ISD mk IIs.)
Post #68: In an interesting contrast to what General Grievous: Lord of War actually says, Facehugger cites Lord of War and ROTC:ICS as saying quadrillions of "war droids" and thousands of ships at the battle of Coruscant. LoW actually gives quintillions of droids, and then billions that are actually battledroids, and doesn't give a ship count - so why is he citing it? Third post to actually cite specific sources.
Post #71: Detailed citation from BFG handbook and quote from NecronLord, first actual cited quotation of the thread.
p4 wrote:Post #77: Raskalnikov, who has been making vague references to a number of SW sources, provides an actual quote from a specifically cited source in a continued display of critical thought.
Post #81: NecronLord challenges Gamesguy to provide a source for his claims about WH40K.
Post #84: Gamesguy refuses.
Post #86: Mjolnir cites a source but does not provide a quote.
Post #90: In apparent ignorance of Foamy #52, apocolypse trots out the claim that the materials for the DS2 were provided only by Black Sun.
Post #95: A very new poster, ScreenXSurfer, suggests that WH40K and SW are similarly stagnant in military tech.
Post #97: Aratech claims that the DS seen at the end of ROTS was not the same device as seen eventually complete in ANH.
Post #98: Pooka cites the "word of George" in suggesting that they're supposed to be the same.
Post #100: Apocolypse admits that they are clearly intended to be the same but suggests it's a little murky.
p5 wrote:Post #105: Darth Metool cites the SW Databank for a 160 km DSII diameter. 7th citation of a specific source so far.
Post #106: Apocolyse finally cites the source of the six months figure (Shadows of the Empire) which has been touted for a very long time. Post #8 containing specific citation.
Post #107: Pooka asks if it isn't quite possible to derive very different sizes for the DSII.
Post #116: Foamy repeats the point of Foamy #52.
Post #118: Apocolypse says the DS2 has been "canonically stated" to be 900 km, but doesn't actually provide a source for this.
Post #122: Starspawn says that only one source claims that, and that all the rest overrule it by preponderance. First post suggesting a reason for taking one set of SW sources over another.
Posts #124-125: Consequences and Apocolypse say that the 900 km scaling is "from the film" (never mind the lower scalings also from the film) and therefore overrule the 160-220 km figures. Also, Apocolypse finally replies to the point of Foamy #52 and #116 by asking that Foamy prove that only one company was used.
p6 wrote:Post #132: Wanderer cites the AOTC:ICS for ground warfare and a WH40K source as well. Ninth post citing specific sources.
Post #133: Drachyench cites and quotes Storm of Iron regarding WH40K ground power. Citing post #10.
Post #138: Starspawn says that capital WH40K main guns fire every other minute and capital torpedo launchers every 4-5 minutes, and capital ship secondaries twice as fast as escort ship primaries. I wish he included a source for this.
Post #140: Foamy cites and quotes Shadows of the Empire in detail to support his contention that it is highly likely that Black Sun is the only shipping source; Black Sun only provided three hundred ships. Eleventh citing post.
Post #141: Apocolypse claims the burden of proof is on Foamy.
Post #142: Foamy says the burden of proof is on Apocolypse.
Post #143: Apocolypse comes up with the wrong size figure for Trade Federation battleships - 3x as big as ISDs. FYI, they have about 38 times the cubage, Apocolypse. Also commits a painfully obviously fallacious argument, namely, that since only Black Sun is discussed, Black Sun must be the only shipper - something Foamy has already addressed.
Post #145: Bluepencil (Join Date: 23 Nov 2007, Posts: 133) is the first to actually talk about plausibility and politics. Kudos! He proceeds to lecture at great length in several posts, essays of better than average quality for the thread, even if they do not critically examine or analyze anything technical or throw numbers around. Pleasant change of pace.
p7 wrote:Post #154: Inquisitor Ryan ups the ante by saying that BFG converts at a rate of 1 damage point to 37+ teratons.
Post #155: Mjolnir declares WH40K ship combat speed to be 0.75c, challenges Wanderer to provide sources.
Post #157: Rahvin declares WH40K firepower calculations useless due to inconsistency,
Post #158: Mr. Oragahn cites the Death Star novel and ROTJ novelization regarding DSII size. Citing post #12.
Post #159: Hollewanderer cites and quotes Space Hulk regarding ship firepower and bolter armor penetration (8" of plasteel). Citing post #13.
Post #161: NecronLord links to the image of a star destroyer cratering a small round moon in a comic book in response to a challenge for continent sized fireballs.
Post #164: Dacis2 asks where the petaton figure touted for ISDs is coming from.
Post #165: Rahvin suggests Wanderer needs to provide evidence for "single sentence dismissals" with little argument backing them up.
Post #166: Apocolypse says he doesn't know where Wanderer's petaton claims are coming from.
Post #167: Captain Hat calls Wanderer a troll.
Post #168: Mjolnir says 4,000 g is slow for WH40K.
p8 wrote:Post #176: Tabi begs Wanderer to not "make a bad name" for SDN.
Post #179: NecronLord quotes ANH. I suppose I can call this citing post #14.
Post #186: Critical discussion from l33telboi about consistency as measuring the utility of a source.
Post #187: Mr. Oragahn makes a bajillion citations. Citing post #15.
Post #197: Foamy calcs to support his earlier point and cites Wookieepedia. Which isn't really a specific EU source, making my count a little ambiguous, but I'll throw this one in just in case I missed one.
p9 wrote:Post #204: Apocolypse cites and quotes the New Essential Chronology. Citing post #17.
Post #214: Apocolypse lists the three sources supporting a ~500 mile DS2 - ITW, Saxton scaling from the movies, and Cinefex quote - i.e., cites one specific canon source. Citing post #18.
Post #217: More discussion of reliability as a reason for choosing one source over another by Mr. Oragahn.
Post #224: Wanderer cites movie screenshots in support of TIE fighters having shields. Citing post #19.
p10 wrote:Post #230: Wanderer cites and quotes the ancient Imperial Sourcebook. Citing post #20.
Post #233: Mr. Oragahn cites and quotes the Death Star novel. Citing post #21.
Post #234: Wanderer claims the ICS is higher canon than the Death Star novel.
Post #235: l33telboi returns that the ICS is C canon with the rest of them.
Post #250: Foamy suggests a reason for choosing sources within the C canon level - more recent sources overruling older sources. Also quotes and sites Shadows of the Empire regarding tracers. Citing post #22.
p11 wrote:Post #260: Apocolypse quotes Chee on how LL decides between conflicting C canon sources.
p12 wrote:Post #287: First post written that only talks about Star Trek, rather than the GE or the IoM.
Post #289: Crysis Psycho makes first specific Trek citation (Booby Trap). Citing post #23.
