Star Trek a Holodeck Fantasy

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Who is like God arbour
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Star Trek a Holodeck Fantasy

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:48 am

Excuse me, but I couldn't let pass such an opportunity to demonstrate the stupidity of Darth Wrong and Darth Servo.
    • [url=http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?p=2721138#2721138]Darth Wong[/url] on SDN has wrote:
          • [...]
      So they look for every nitpicky little thing they can find and hold it up as a triumph, with the implicit argument that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Never mind the fact that they have no problem with Saavik looking totally different between ST2 and ST3, or Worf's grandfather looking exactly like him. Really, if one wanted to be as nitpicky as they are, one could declare that many of the episodes in ST are actually holodeck recreations, based on precedent (final episode of ENT) and logic (the impossibility of Worf's grandfather looking precisely like him, hence that was obviously Worf playing his own grandfather in a holodeck fantasy).
Wouldn't the change of the actress between ST2 and ST3 not a priori counter his deduction, that whole Star Trek is a holodeck fantasy? Why would a holodeck, in which all characters (but the one or two visitors) are created by light and forcefields change the appearance of one character? That doesn't make sense.

Or is he supposing, that first Kirstie Alley and than Robin Curtis were the visitor of the ST 2 and ST 3 simulation?


And now look at Worf and Worf:
      • Image Image
Look at these images and check, if Worf really is »looking exactly like« his grandfather.

I'm ready to conceede, that there are similarities - but, hey, they are near relatives. It would be curious if there would be no similarities.
But I can't really see, that they are »looking exactly like« each other.





And then look at Darth Servo:
    • [url=http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?p=2721298#2721298]Darth Servo[/url] at SDN has wrote:
      BountyHunterSAx wrote:
      Darth Wong wrote: Really, if one wanted to be as nitpicky as they are, one could declare that many of the episodes in ST are actually holodeck recreations, based on precedent (final episode of ENT) and logic (the impossibility of Worf's grandfather looking precisely like him, hence that was obviously Worf playing his own grandfather in a holodeck fantasy).
      That's actually a really good reductio ad absurdem to Darkstar's website. Still, I wouldn't advise telling him this,
      Too late. If its posted here, Darkstar or one of his cockgoblins has already read it. Its not like they have anything else to do.
He, who makes alone at SDN 4,29 posts per day and is now busy to create many entries in the SDN wiki. He, who is at once on the spot to attack someone, who doesn't speak in favor for Star Wars and has made 4632 posts at STARTREK.COM.

It doesn't seem, as if that guy has anything to do besides watching the different foras and be ready to intervene if someone says anything against Star Wars.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:18 pm

It's actually a very good reason why we should not take the so-called "canon" too literally and rely upon the smallest details of what is seen onscreen - which Wong does at least as much as his preferred nemesis.

Still, the point about Grampa Worf in TUC is definitely a flop.

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Post by GStone » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:24 am

And genes can skip generations. One offspring can be said to look like their grandmother.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:15 am

It is a kind of silly thing to point out since there are numerous times in real life where you can hear about someone in a family looking very much or exactly like their grandfather, grandmother, or what-have-you.

That Colonel Worf looks like his grandson (or great grandson) is no terrible suprise since they are all direct relatives of one another.

So while there are plenty of gaffes and screw ups in the production of Star Trek, Star Wars and other franchises, this is most certainly not even not one worth mentioning. In fact, it's not even one at all.
-Mike

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Post by Mith » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:42 pm

By their logic, Dul Dukat was really undercover when he met Picard in The Wounded and Odo is a Starfleet admiral who participated in the assassination attempt of the Federation President. Or how Sisko's wife is actually a savage who was married to Worf's brother who left the UFP to live on a savage world and she somehow managed to ditch him and become the captain of a freighter.

Isn't is great to pull shit out of your ass by going under the "scientific anylasis" claim despite the fact that it glaringly spits in the face of the story's logic?

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:35 pm

Well then, I guess SW is also a Holodeck fantasy, because you see, young Anakin Skywalker doesn't look at all like his older counterpart in ROTJ.
Young Obi-Wan Kenobi is also very different then his older self, and has become quite the incompetent fool with a saber, when compared to his younger self.
And don't tell me age has anything to do with it, because then you'd have to explain how Dooku managed to stay so good while as old as Obi-Wan was when he faced Vader.

Oh, and Yoda caught a disease on Dagobah that made his skin look rubbery... :)

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:28 am

Praeothmin wrote: And don't tell me age has anything to do with it, because then you'd have to explain how Dooku managed to stay so good while as old as Obi-Wan was when he faced Vader.
Actually, Vader really is not all that old, when you think about it. Anakin is about 23 at the time of RoTS. Add another 20 years until ANH and you get 43. Add another 5 years, and Vader is still only 48 years old. Dooku and Wace are much older than Vader respectively.

The only thing you can say in counterpoint is that Vader has suffered so much injury as a result of his first duel with Obi-Wan on Mustafar that he no longer has as much in the way of midichlorians to call on the Force with. But given how many midichlorians Anakin was said to have, Vader should still be at least as powerful as any modestly powerful Jedi knight. Not to mention, Vader has the bionic legs and arms and other enhancements as well as 20 plus years of experiance that can help him compensate for what he has lost.
-Mike

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:38 am

And Obi-Wan should still be exceptionally good, since he hasn't lost anything, physically.
Yes, he would certainly have lost a little of his prowess due to not facing another Saber wielding opponent in years, but so would have Vader, and franckly, if he kept training everyday, he would not lose that much skill.

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Post by Mith » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:27 am

It could be that Anakin's count was further reduced by the lava's heat, which should have cooked him alive. That's on top of the lost limbs. It could also be that as one grows older, their count begans to gradually drop. Thus, it is important for one to become more skilled in using the force, since they have less to work with.

That would mean that Palpatine was slowly becoming weaker, but his knowledge and experience made up for it until the time that he came into Return of the Jedi, where he had lost much of his power and wasn't able to go all badass on Luke.

This also applies to Vader. His earlier style relies on mobility, while his later one is slower and focuses on using his knowledge of the force to gain an upper hand. Ben would also be explained in this manner because he's not as powerful naturally as the other two so his power would drain away sooner.

This theory would explain why both groups have such a large focus on apprentices. As the masters grew older, their power would wane. Given the average power of a mook Jedi, they'd be just about worthless at around Obi-Wan's. Only the higher count or skilled Jedi would be able to remain a threat and probably take part on the council.

Assuming Obi-Wan was slightly above average (although there isn't proof of that as far as I'm aware), it would go a long way to explaining everything.

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Post by Praeothmin » Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:50 pm

Mith wrote:Assuming Obi-Wan was slightly above average (although there isn't proof of that as far as I'm aware),
Except, perhaps, for the fact that he stood up very well to Anakin, while all the Jedi in the temple got creamed by the same Anakin not long before they faced each other?

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Post by Mith » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:20 am

Praeothmin wrote:
Mith wrote:Assuming Obi-Wan was slightly above average (although there isn't proof of that as far as I'm aware),
Except, perhaps, for the fact that he stood up very well to Anakin, while all the Jedi in the temple got creamed by the same Anakin not long before they faced each other?
It might have just been skill, although that does suggest to him being higher in count than others.

But taking it as a yes, then that would mean that most average Jedi are next to worthless towards the end of their lives.

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:37 am

I have no problem with Jedi being showed as less powerful as they age.
We've seen the difference in Yoda's and the Emperor's powers in the last 20 years, we've seen how Obi-Wan and Anakin go from "super powerful Saiyan Jedi Gods" (exagerating a little) to "having trouble getting rid of an untrained farm-boy" levle of power... :)

I simply wasn't agreeing with your assessment of Obi-Wan's power in his younger years.

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