Adressing erroneous claims made by Kane Starkiller on SDN

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Mr. Oragahn
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Adressing erroneous claims made by Kane Starkiller on SDN

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:56 pm

I've been reading some attacks made by Kane Starkiller, in their thread about their own wiki and associated troll page 1.
Yes, they do need a wiki to post more insults. As a sidenote, it seems that this Darth Servo guys decided to personally take care of
Man, if we just started to make a wiki about them... but what would the point be?

Anyway, Kane made claims which need to be adressed.

His post on SDN:
Vympel wrote:I think that entry re: Mr Oragahn is too harsh. He's not a trekkie, he's just IMO generally contrarian about everything. He likes to use (some) Darkstar arguments, though I've never seen him espouse the worst of the worst (eg. days to get to Endor).
Kane wrote:No he is not. He is a Stargate fanwhore. Check his wanking here.
So because the ship can withstand a certain power intensity for 10 hours that means it's shields capacity is that time multiplied with power? If I go sunbathing and lie on the beach for ten hours my skin will absorb 50MJ of energy. I guess that must mean my skin's "energy capacity" is 50MJ. And he calls his numbers conservative. Image
Here he is whining about Necronlord's calculated ZPM upper limit.
And last but not least check out this thread featuring STvsSG scenario and the debate between DiCenso/AFT/sonofccn and Mr.Oraghan/l33telboi. Naturally they can't agree over anything and you'll notice how Oragahn and DiCenso get progressively less polite and in the last page start accusing each other of...*gasp*.. dishonesty, desperation, wall of ignorance! Image
Bit by bit.
Kane wrote:No he is not. He is a Stargate fanwhore. Check his wanking here.
So because the ship can withstand a certain power intensity for 10 hours that means it's shields capacity is that time multiplied with power? If I go sunbathing and lie on the beach for ten hours my skin will absorb 50MJ of energy. I guess that must mean my skin's "energy capacity" is 50MJ. And he calls his numbers conservative. Image
Before attacking someone the way it happens above, some former education may be necessary on a few basic facts about Stargate.

First, I'm certainly not trying to wank Stargate. The show has been doing it on its own fairly easily, and there's still much material left to point to show that. You'll notice that the figures I posted in the thread you linked to are actually pretty low in comparison to what could be found on Spacebattles.

Secondly, I did consider the issue shield recharge, far more than once, in private exchanges and on other boards. You can actually see in older posts from me at Spacebattles, around 2005.

One would have considered that while the shields were hit by hundreds of kilotons as a low end, and several megatons as a high end (figures obtained from Enemies), they could be recharged as the same time.
Shields in Stargate clearly appear to tap into a tank of energy which goes down by chunks as it's put under strain. I think that on these terms, it's a bit like in Trek, if I'm correct.

We know that the shields mounted on the Prometheus, at that time asgard in design, but not necessarily top notch, couldn't recharge much while under strain, as noticed in Lost City Pt II:

KIRKLAND
We need to break off and recharge the shields.


You could always say that on the ratio of energy lost because of the radiations, some of the loss was compensated by an input straight from the reactor. This is quite logical in fact. But look at the numbers.
We know that Ha'taks can fire at least 200 MT per heavy cannon. This figure... I didn't like it before, because it came from an alternate reality, but after rechecking said episode, it was rather very clear that the technology and firepower levels for all weapons were all the same.

More, considering the energy figures obtained from that exotic material that naqahdah is, and how it's painfully easy for Earth to obtain gigaton level nukes with mere small portions of raw ore simply added to otherwise classical warheads, I saw not reason to consider that the Ha'taks couldn't be capable of such yields, for all good reasons, such as the Goa'uld using that ore for millenia, or for the fact that they use refined versions of it and came with several variants.

You don't cut it, and 200 MT even looks tame in the light of what could be achieved.

These arguments, I've presented them several times here and elsewhere.

So when you see that such shields can take at least bolts worth of 200 MT of energy and not bulge, it means that the energy buffers behind the shields have all the necessary energy in stock to deal with such assaults - especially since while a bolt itself is rated as 200 MT (for which we don't know if it's a max yield or not by the way), the power would be worth of several times this number per second, by the sheer fact that bolts hit shields and immediately get dealt with within one frame, on all videos you could find.

Of course, if you look at it the other way round, and pretend that the shields are mainly maintained by a direct reactor output within the 200 MT/s, then when put into the equations relative to Enemies, make the shields capable of sustaining a total of 2 digit teratons for ten hours... and this would, obviously, not fit at all with the way the shields work in Stargate, as they recharge very slowly. It seems that they can't be used and recharged at the same time. The technical reason behind this is up to you.

Finally, those figures were obtained by considering a size for a Ha'tak which is in the low ballpark. Fact is, constrary to some sources or people around, I see no real evidence to argue for Ha'taks being even 1 km wide.
I also obtained a shield area by making it the tightest possible, instead of using a sphere like it's usually done elsewhere.
You can hardly make it lower.

So... wanker? Certainly not.

I suppose I should really work on SFJN's wiki, or somewhere else, to really pile up the amount of evidence which shows that Stargate has some good balls, with for example, much contrary to SW, has the ability to come with 812 GT level nukes fitting inside fighter carriable missiles. The evidence is here.
But it's also an universe which lacks what's necessary to exploit it: piss poor industry, and the vastest forces don't work as unified military empires.

The Goa'uld have been happy playing gods for millenia, didn't need massive numbers to keep control on primitive worlds, and really started shooting at each other when the major System Lords were picked one by one.
The Asgards have fought centuries against the Replicators iirc, and barely managed to keep them at bay. The Ancients/Alterans/Lantians were never interested in numbers, had formidable technologies, and when they started to grow an army, they were too late and were defeated, despite their warships being powered by ZPMs.
The Wraith are nothing like they were during the war. They can barely repair their ships, those who hold the blueprints have formed a sort of guild, the whole species in thrown into a civil war.
The Asurans were dumbed down Replicators with nerfing codes and hampering failsafes, and their brightest move was the satgate used in First Strike. After that, they were made even more stupid.
The Ori... I'd prefer to forget that one. They started cool, had a couple of flaws, then got underexploited, never unleashed to their full potential, and got written off in a series of utmost pathetic and ashaming pieces of SF writing.

Only the Replicators were being tough and getting numbers, but they still obeyed some unefficient rules and got wiped out by a deus ex machina and a fair dose of incoherence: just how the hell could the Dakara device reach every single Replicators throughout the galaxy, since at that time, they were all spread around? It's mathematically impossible.

Here he is whining about Necronlord's calculated ZPM upper limit.
First, this post was written many months ago. At that time, I didn't think the writers would fuck up ZPMs even more, highlighting the fact that they just have no clue about the numbers they play with. Their greatest achievement of late: claiming that several ZPMs were necessary to power the production of hundreds of thousands of clones over weeks.
Just WTF? It's even more absurd considering that just building more starship class reactors would have been plain enough to achieve that. And frankly, needing such levels of energy for some cloning? What's that? Are they growing continent busting nukes or what?

You could write a tirade on the poor writing Stargate went through lately, which only got worse in SGA (although Ark of Truth really takes the crown, but you have to see it first). The worst part, in regards to those technical debates, would be the inconsistency of the technology, which only got bigger and bigger, literally rewriting bits of former canon.
That is, I guess, the problem you get when relying too much on technotoys for your plots.

Secondly, as for the arguments themselves, you really don't do yourself any favour, Kane, when saying I whined, while you obviously didn't pay much attention to them, and put all of your concentration into crafting more personnal attacks.

As anyone can see by reading the thread in question, we can see that my gripes are far more than legit.

The volume of the city he obtained was grossly wrong, at a time when it was sufficiently documented to know that Atlantis wasn't 900 m wide, but more than 3 km wide.

There's the problem that the Lantians possess mass lightening tech. As it would be likely applied to their city, the power needed to lift it up would be lower than what is estimated. Which of course, doesn't help at all with the discrepancies.

My third point was just a comment on the bias from SDN in favour of SW and against many other universe, improperly gauged.

The rest was simply demonstrating that using material from the show, his estimations about ZPM upper limits being 6.75 Mt/s were just absurd claims, and flew in the face of just so many elements from Stargate.

You can notice that in the thread in question, I tried to find solutions as well.

And last but not least check out this thread featuring STvsSG scenario and the debate between DiCenso/AFT/sonofccn and Mr.Oraghan/l33telboi. Naturally they can't agree over anything and you'll notice how Oragahn and DiCenso get progressively less polite and in the last page start accusing each other of...*gasp*.. dishonesty, desperation, wall of ignorance! Image
After 7-8 pages, things started to get hot, and I didn't appreciate Mike's accusation of WoI, but that was pretty much all of which he came with. I don't hold any griefs against him for that, and it's a very rare exception here.

Now, instead of lurking around, sniping from under your mother's skirts and moaning on another board, why not grow some balls and come adress the points you seem to have problems with in the threads you've linked?

They're open and you know where they are. I don't need to remind you that you have an account here.

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:18 pm

I haven't gotten my own page yet? Only a brief mention? I'm insulted.

As for the whole "responding to stuff here and there", just make posts adressing the issues he's brought up in the relevant threads. No need to mention that you're doing it specifically because of what's said where or who's said it.

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Post by GStone » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:42 pm

What I don't get is why my page is longer than Darkstar's. He' been a bigger pain in the ass to them than me.

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Re: Adressing erroneous claims made by Kane Starkiller on SD

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:16 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:sniping from under your mother's skirts and moaning on another board, why not grow some balls
No baiting, please.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I suppose I should really work on SFJN's wiki
By all means. I will remind you, by the way, that if you want to rant angrily on this site, there is always the Soapbox. Which has yet to be used, although it has been discussed before. There is no civility requirement for the soapbox; if you really want to call someone out, do it there.
l33telboi wrote:I haven't gotten my own page yet? Only a brief mention? I'm insulted.
This may be why:
Darth Wong wrote:
Ted C wrote:I think we may be giving the SFJ trekkies and whatnot entirely too much attention.
That's a good point; if anything, they should be treated as a single conglomerated entry rather than each one being given his own "star page". They're all kind of the same anyway.
There's really no reason for a wiki the size and specialization of ours or theirs (188 and 543 articles, respectively) to have any notability requirement, IMO. You're welcome to create a page about yourself as a VS debater if you feel neglected, or to generate a user page about yourself.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:18 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, instead of lurking around, sniping from under your mother's skirts and moaning on another board, why not grow some balls and come adress the points you seem to have problems with in the threads you've linked?
Let's see you accuse me of lurking around which is exactly what you've been doing over at SD.net otherwise you couldn't have read my post so we have a "pot calling the kettle black" right of the bat.
Secondly I was making a comment about you not directed at you. I didn't intend to have a discussion with you and I really don't see why I should have the obligation to come over here and notify you every time I mention you on another board.
You, on the other hand, after seeing me make a comment about you which you didn't like instead of replying directly to me you ran over here to make a thread with my name on it basically calling me out from afar.
I have an account here and have debated here.
So why don't you take your own advice, grow a pair of balls and sign up on SD.net board so you can debate me directly if I make a comment which you don't like instead of cowardly calling on me from the safety of SFJ.


As for your post it was completely useless in terms of answering my point. I attacked your methods of analysis over an incident and you reply with some other incidents which presumably also show great energy figures. This is completely irrelevant. The issue is your analysis of one particular case and your defense must be confined to justifying your methodology for that case.
The fact remains that 17 Gt-250 Gt is the total energy received over a time interval of 10 hours and at no point were the shields required to deal with anything approaching that energy any more than your skin is required to deal with 50MJ at any point during a 10 hour sunbathing session.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:01 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, instead of lurking around, sniping from under your mother's skirts and moaning on another board, why not grow some balls and come adress the points you seem to have problems with in the threads you've linked?
Let's see you accuse me of lurking around which is exactly what you've been doing over at SD.net otherwise you couldn't have read my post so we have a "pot calling the kettle black" right of the bat.
Of course, I'm really not surprised that you miss the point that lurking around wasn't really the problem alone, as it wouldn't have been problematic if it wasn't used to formulate argumenta ad hominem, make false claims of debunking and took a ticket ride to mock more people, from the safety of another board.
Secondly I was making a comment about you not directed at you. I didn't intend to have a discussion with you and I really don't see why I should have the obligation to come over here and notify you every time I mention you on another board.
You don't have to notify me, but when you make claims about how you spot errors and use this evidence of yours as a reason to insult people, I'd have thought you'd have the intelligence to actually formulate your claims in the proper threads, which are perfectly and easily accessible to you, instead of sniping from a distance and complaining when your methods are spotted.
You, on the other hand, after seeing me make a comment about you which you didn't like instead of replying directly to me you ran over here to make a thread with my name on it basically calling me out from afar.
It's not a problem, I don't have an account on SDN, don't plan to, and the claims and people you attacked were all formulated here. As I said, you know where the threads are, so post in them.
It wouldn't have been much of an issue if you didn't gloat as well. When you make big headed statements, I expect you to be able to defend them when asked to.
I have an account here and have debated here.
I know, and obviously you felt more secure about whining on the other board rather than use that account to post your thoughts in a civil and organized manner.
You still have the opportunity to make your point here, like you should have.
So why don't you take your own advice, grow a pair of balls and sign up on SD.net board so you can debate me directly if I make a comment which you don't like instead of cowardly calling on me from the safety of SFJ.
Because the threads are here. Because I am here. Because you have an account here.
Because the threads are not at SDN. Because I am not at SDN. Because I don't have an account at SDN.
Do the math.
As for your post it was completely useless in terms of answering my point.
Hardly.
I attacked your methods of analysis over an incident and you reply with some other incidents which presumably also show great energy figures.
That's as vague as it guess. I suppose that makes a good defense in your mind, but it's poor in reality.
This is completely irrelevant. The issue is your analysis of one particular case and your defense must be confined to justifying your methodology for that case.
The fact remains that 17 Gt-250 Gt is the total energy received over a time interval of 10 hours and at no point were the shields required to deal with anything approaching that energy any more than your skin is required to deal with 50MJ at any point during a 10 hour sunbathing session.
And you completely miss the point.

The shields would drop over ten hours. If they were directly and mainly fed by the reactor's output, it could go on for a while, precisely because it were the shields which were said to fail, not something else.
So if the shields would fail over ten hours, it's precisely because there's actually something going down, and in light of evidence and to make things simple, the most obvious choice is an energy tank/buffer. We do know that shields go down in chunks when hit, precisely being depleted after each hit. This, safe a few exceptions like for Atlantis, applies to all defense shields.

So we could still say that the shields are powered by a mix of direct reactor output and energy buffer, otherwise the shields couldn't stay on for so long, and when the buffer is depleted, the sole reactor output isn't enough anymore.
But this is a problem.

See, again, in Enemies, the energy hitting the exposed surface per second ranges within 3 digits kilotons/s and 1 digit megaton/s. You'd say that some of the energy to keep the shields holding comes from the reactor.

But we know that the shields can be hit by multiple 200 MT energy bolts and still going on. So either the reactor is capable of providing the 200 MT of energy to the shields (as it can do for weapons), but in this case then the shield figures would skyrocket, or you say that the shields mainly tap into a buffer. Of course, if the shields can tap into a buffer to resist energy bolts worth of 200 MT, there's no reason they couldn't be used to withstand a small fraction of that energy from the blue giant.

So the buffer actually comes as the most reasonable explanation, and is in touch with the rest of Stargate regarding how shields fall. Again, check out the yields raw naqahdah grant, and figure out that Ha'taks run on refined variants for fuel. Thinking that the Ha'taks couldn't fill up buffers with gigatons of energy is simply absurd.

You can also check out how long the battle at Dakara lasted despite the presence of many Replicator controlled and enhanced Ha'taks, as a testament to the strenght of normal Ha'taks' shields.

So, for the example of how powerful naqahdah is (and how it obviously mocks physics):

SAMUELS
An otherwise ordinary Mark 12A warhead has been enriched by the alien material, naqahdah.


A Mark 12A, in real life, is a reentry vehicle which holds a warhead worth of 335-350 KT. The yield is way too often attributed to the 12A instead of the warhead it contains, which explains a bit the slip of words here.
Mark 12As were placed into Minuteman III systems. Each missile was capable to house three 12As.
So a missile was filled with three warheads, it would have actually totalled a firepower of 3 gigatons each, but we don't know how many warheads were put into each missile.
The issue I spotted here is that the 12A is refered as a warhead from time to time, but technically it's a misuse.
Here's the amount of naqahdah in regard of the nuclear device:

Image

The device is looking high tech, and similar in shape to the device seen in the film.
Considering its size, it don't see how that thing could be remotely approaching the megaton range.
At best, it would be worth a few hundred kilotons.
But even for some reason, the nuke was worth of 1 digit megaton, despite its size, instead of its official real life yield, the tiny little bit of raw naqahdah would have still magnified the explosion yield by 1000, which I think is more or less in line with the film (but things changed from the film to the show), unless it was 100 times.

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