SDN and bias: Explain this

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GStone
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Post by GStone » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:29 pm

mojo wrote:How can there be so much hostility between two sides of such a pointless and obviously 'for fun' debate?

...I find myself in an awkward position when I attempt to enjoy Mr. Wong's forum as it's full of hatred toward this one and toward Trekkies in general.
The attitude taken by those at Wong's site is a part of how it all began.
Also, are there other pro-Wars sites out there that are not so hostile?
I'm not that aware of how many pro-wars sites there are. I know of Poe's, Wong's, Spacebattles is pro-wars, but acts like those of SDN, there was ASVS, but I don't know if that's still active or if it's closed. There was Brian Young's site, but that was for technical analysis pages and didn't have a board (I forget where he came down on for all the issues). I don't know about TFN's position but it does have a large part of the EU completists and it's got Saxton's commentaries and we know he's tried to influence the debate in offical materials.

I don't know of any others.

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:42 pm

GStone wrote:I don't know about TFN's position but it does have a large part of the EU completists and it's got Saxton's commentaries and we know he's tried to influence the debate in offical materials.
Although I remember reading here and there on SDN about idiots on TFN who didn't seem to agree with complete Wars supremacy, or with the more "despised" EU authors.

So Mojo, I would first start there, at TheForce.net for a Wars forum that doesn't seem as vitriolic as SDN.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:36 pm

mojo wrote:I know this is going to seem like a stupid question, but as an outsider, I have to wonder where all this hostility came from in the first place? I was massively enjoying the comedic value of that wiki until I stumbled across the entry on JMS, and then that pretty much killed it for me. How can there be so much hostility between two sides of such a pointless and obviously 'for fun' debate?
Please don't flame me, it's an honest question. Being that I personally prefer Star Wars for entertainment value but find that I prefer the company of this side of the debate, (and I know there are Warsies on this forum but it would be difficult to argue that there are not more Trekkies) I find myself in an awkward position when I attempt to enjoy Mr. Wong's forum as it's full of hatred toward this one and toward Trekkies in general.
Also, are there other pro-Wars sites out there that are not so hostile?
Starwars.com has a forum, and there's the huge Theforce.net, with stuff for all tastes.
But you won't cut the hostility. It pokes its head out in a way or another, on various topics which also have nothing to do with the versus.
We're fans. The roots of the word explain rather well the passion.

EDIT: Eh, crap, that's Praet's point. Crap. Crap. Crap.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:44 pm

GStone wrote:
I'm not that aware of how many pro-wars sites there are. I know of Poe's, Wong's, Spacebattles is pro-wars, but acts like those of SDN, there was ASVS, but I don't know if that's still active or if it's closed. There was Brian Young's site, but that was for technical analysis pages and didn't have a board (I forget where he came down on for all the issues). I don't know about TFN's position but it does have a large part of the EU completists and it's got Saxton's commentaries and we know he's tried to influence the debate in offical material.

Brian Young's site did have a forum board in the late 90's that I particpated on for a while. Like everything else with Brian's site, it too was closed down when he retired. Was it pro-Wars? You betcha! A good number of the Usual Suspects (Wong, Poe, ect) were there in force, though they weren't quite as nasty with the vitrol then as they are now.
-Mike

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:14 pm

IMO, some of that is location. Most of the "usual suspects" are registered on other boards, and most other boards have standards of conduct that vary from those on SDN. I would claim it is a question of community style as much as individual preferences of behavior.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:35 am

By the way, ASVS is a news group not a forum. It is still up, but has seen very little activity in recent years thanks in part to AoTC ICS, and the Wars majority voting themselves into power.
-Mike

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:44 am

I've looked at it on Google Groups. It's pretty much dead; the spambots play there, but I think that's it.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:09 am

It's not completely dead. I posted there a year ago, and it wasn't long before elements of the Brute Squad showed up to go foaming on the attack. So at least as of that long ago they were still monitoring it.
-Mike

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:31 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:It's not completely dead. I posted there a year ago, and it wasn't long before elements of the Brute Squad showed up to go foaming on the attack. So at least as of that long ago they were still monitoring it.
-Mike
Which is just as creepy. Monitoring a dead world, just in case some survivor might poke his head... talk about trying to enforce an order at any cost. :D

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Post by Cock_Knocker » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:39 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:By the way, ASVS is a news group not a forum. It is still up, but has seen very little activity in recent years thanks in part to AoTC ICS, and the Wars majority voting themselves into power.
-Mike
Yeah, it must be because of that all encompassing evil that is the AOTC:ICS. It had nothing to do with SD.net opening in 2002 and 99% of ASVS moving there, right?

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:45 am

Wayne, even you must agree that once AoTC:ICS came out, it pretty much killed the debate for some people.
-Mike

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:15 am

Cock_Knocker wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:By the way, ASVS is a news group not a forum. It is still up, but has seen very little activity in recent years thanks in part to AoTC ICS, and the Wars majority voting themselves into power.
-Mike
Yeah, it must be because of that all encompassing evil that is the AOTC:ICS. It had nothing to do with SD.net opening in 2002 and 99% of ASVS moving there, right?
Yes, boards are still more enjoyable than those groupthings, in my opinion.
However, it's only a factor. Globally, the ICS killed the Trek vs Wars scene. Would you try to deny this?

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Post by 2046 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:18 am

Mojo,

I don't know how it is now, but you might be interested in TrekWars: The Furry Conflict. Back in the day, at least, it replaced hostility with weird cartoon hirsutedness.
mojo wrote:I know this is going to seem like a stupid question, but as an outsider, I have to wonder where all this hostility came from in the first place?
ASVSesis, Ch. 1:

In the beginning DARPA created a series of tubes. But the tubes were without bandwidth, and void. So the spirit of Al Gore moved upon the face of the tubes.

And Al Gore said "Let there be USENET", and there was USENET. And The Gore increased the bandwidth thereof, and the tubes were fruitful and multiplied.

And on USENET were discussions and debates after their kind. And Al Gore said let there be newsgroups to divide the topics and subjects, and for porn and picture groups, and it was so.

Verily, in this garden of eden were fanboys and geeks. In the image of Al Gore created He them. And in their innocence they gathered, each according to their kind, Trekkies in alt.tv.startrek newsgroups, Warsies in alt.starwars newsgroups. And it was very good.

But lo, serpents brought forth apples of knowledge betwixt the groups, and suddenly both were aware of their animosity. And Al Gore was angry, and did punish them with alt.startrek.vs.starwars, saying "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy inner bastards, and hast let out thy animosities of which I commanded thee saying "use thy killfilter on that nonsense", cursed is the series of tubes for thy sake; in misery shalt thou debate all the days of thy life. Flames and insults shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt find no peace, for silly fanboy buttholes thou art, and as silly fanboy buttholes shall thou be knownst."

These are the generations of the tubes and ASVS, in the day that Al Gore made USENET and the tubes.

ASVSesis, Ch. 11:

And Wayne's page begat Wong's page, and somewhere in there was begat Boyd's, and also there was January's, but, for want of attention and shekels, to electrons have they returned. Later on the scene came G2k's .edu pages, which begat ST-v-SW.Net, which indirectly begat Strek-v-Swars and its forum, but not before a forum Wong made he it. And so the tribes largely cast themselves out of ASVS, which being naughty in Al Gore's sight, has been severely spambotted.

------------

And so on. Which has very little to do with your question.

Basically, at ASVS the Warsies kinda developed a bunker mentality, since initially the Trek side had a numerical advantage. But whereas the Trek folks were more into discussion and could be driven from the field with sufficient flaming . . . kinda like now, as often as not . . . the Wars side organized themselves into a united front of snarky twerps, with super-secret decoder ring e-mail lists and whatnot to keep the narratives and arguments straight.

(Some on the Trek side tried to set up the same at one point shortly after I came on the scene, but in my youth and inexperience I thought such tactics were not noble in a rational discussion . . . not fully realizing that they were already being employed by the other side, for whom it was a debate to the death . . . and blew the whistle. C'est la vie.)

Over time, this devolved into a groupthink subculture with very different mores from normal society, which eventually made its home at SDN, with frequent raids elsewhere by its membership. Thus you'll be hard-pressed to find a site where the conversation has not fallen to flaming and vitriol, though Furry Conflict has been largely impervious since they're weird.

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Cock_Knocker
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Post by Cock_Knocker » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:06 am

Actually, anyone interested in the true history of Star Wars vs Star Trek need only watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo_1RFuZgIg

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:30 am

Well, except that it's not exactly the true history of the Versus debate, either... :-/
-Mike

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