I take the oportunity to continue this discussion to look at another problem regarding the figures.
My apologies. I was under the impression that the 200 GT were the yields of heavy artillery.General Schatten wrote:Where in the ICS does it say Acclamators have HTL's? The 200 GT figure was for it's MTL's and the MT-ranged ones was for its LTL's. I've never heard the Acclamator described with Heavy Turbolasers.
You are correct, I forgot the "improved" part. However, it's rather bad publicity for a technology when just improving it a tad suddenly turns your new model into such an unpredictable bomb.Leo1/Vympel wrote:And my point was given the totality of the evidence and the absolutely threadbare nature of your above reasoning (as my analogy indicates) is that it's a pretty blindingly obvious that the "improved prototype hypermatter reactor" the ISD Mk II was testing was just that.Me wrote: First, the book is open ended on the interpretation, until I stumble over other elements which help to refine the vision of the author.
My point precisely was that it's a possibility that the prototypes were a new form of hypermatter reactors, not just downright a totally new technology based on hypermatter.
That's what I'm saying, I don't know why you get so hotty.
Do nuclear plants explode everytime an improvement is done on a new model?
It's a circular reasoning.Leo1/Vympel wrote:Yes, citing canon evidence that has something to say on the matter is "circular reasoning". There's no contradiction, and there doesn't need to be.Me wrote: Both books being the latest two ICSes? Topic aside, you formulated a circular reasoning then.
It's rather obvious that we expect the content of those two books to be coherent, instead of being self contradictory.
The part of your post, which I quoted here, had only been about the two ICSes.
There's a problem with that.Leo1/Vympel wrote:The AotC ICS doesn't say the Acclamator has HTLs. It's "quad turbolasers" are smaller than that. Its guns are like the quad turbolasers outside the hangar of the Invisible Hand, and as such I don't expect to be able to see them in the few shots of them we have in AotC. Much as we can't see the quad TLs on the Invisible Hand until close-up fly-by shots, or those on the ISD Mk I in ANH. The quad turbolasers on the Trade Federation Battleships are also hard to make out except in the close-by fly shots. They are nothing like the huge structures on either the Venator or Imperator designs.Me wrote:What is interesting about the Venator and ICS' claim of 12 heavy turbolasers (4 cannons of 50 GT each), is that noticeable medium or heavy turbolaser structures can't be seen on the Acclamators, which makes me think that the Acclamators were nothing more than super carriers with, at best, light to medium weapons and probably tough shields.
Republic Commando, Acclamator level, one of the quad turbolaser stations
2
Acclamator battling a RotS-style TF Battleship
I also note that my aversion to clicking on SFJ threads is once again confirmed - it's nice to see what crapola people can come up with if they don't actually read the books they purport to pontificate on, and so spin a load of nonsense on the presumption that any source says the Acclamator has huge Venator/ISD style HTLs .
It is amusing though "who is god like" whatever saw fit to post all manner of vague EU shots along with a single hi-res shot of an Acclamator from a pretty useless angle and in poor light (hence my posting of Republic Commando, which is the closest look you'll ever get in the EU, I bet) - the NEGVV drawing of the Acclamator, however, kinda approximates the size of the main quad TL emplacements with the three small bumps it places on the flanks of the elevated structure leading up to the tower - typically abstract for the NEGVV illustrations, though.
First, it's EU, against higher canon. If the EU has issues to fit with the movies, it's not my problem. It's yours.
Secondly, the model shows no visual trace of any weapon of any kind. If anything is present, it has to be particularily small, way smaller than the lucrehulk's quad turbolaser cannons, as they were by TPM era.
For the note, these quad TL cannons were particularily bigger than the Naboo yatch from TPM.
Such quad TL cannons could not be unnoticeable, if they were present on a ship such as the Acclamator.
So the quad TLs mentionned by the ICS have to be particularily small.
That's where your pictures are interesting.
It shows two Acclamators dealing with at least one Clone Wars era lucruhulk battleship.
For the record, some of the stats:
Armament
Pre-Clone Wars refitting:
- Quad turbolaser batteries (42)
Clone Wars refitting:- Ring carrier:
- Point-defense quad laser batteries (164)
- Assault laser cannons (472)
- Turbolasers (48)
- Core ship:
- Point-defense quad laser batteries (21)
- Assault laser cannons (48)
- Turbolasers (3)
The third picture shows the top of a defense turret, in front of the window. Looking at the size of the turret, it can only be some small stuff. And this small stuff is precisely was is reactivated as a measure of defense against the lucrehulk.
For the record, the small stuff is, at best, medium weapons, at worst, the light weapons.
However, it does not add up.
The core ship, alone, has a shield rating of 600 zettawatts (600 e21 W), which means 143.4 teratons per second. This is not counting the power provided by the ring section.
You don't think there's a little problem here, with these 200 gigatons cannons?
You have two Acclamators, surviving and engaging a lucrehulk - a ship which actually holds well against the Venators and their teratons of firepower - for quite some time...
Or what about the Rendili battle, where once again, Acclamators are apparently capable of dealing severe damage to lucrehulks freshly arrived?
Oh, you're surely thinking about spinning these numbers to cover this nonsense, just in a way to turn those 200 gigatons per bolt (energy) into something like 20 petatons per second (power), because shields are rated in power.
The question would be: if a bolt is rated at, say, 1000 teratons per second of power, does it have an energy in the low teraton or gigaton range, or is it near 1000 teratons?
The time needed to fire bolts is generally one frame. Same when a bolt impacts. It takes one frame to deliver the energy.
You can't pump up power that much, and certainly not add fancyful garland of zeros to match the shield figures, unless you pretend that one frame is still too long to show how fast the energy is delivered (though we could still compare the lenght of a bolt and its velocity to determine how much energy is delivered per frame, but it becomes problematic with the invisible beam theory).
However, in that case, the ICS' beam theory would not help to argue for high power figures, because with a beam that's fired for such a long time, those 200 GT of energy (836.8 e18 J) would be actually delivered over the course of several frames. Which means that the energy to power factor could never even exceed the number of frames of the video. Even with 25 frames (1 frame = 0.04 s), you'd only reach 20,920 e18 W. Which means no chance to ever even hope approaching the shield's bleed off rate (600,000 e18 W), which is a prerequisite to threaten shielded ships.
So simply put, to have 836.8 e18 J (200 GT) threaten a shield rated in the 600 e21 W, you have to consider the ICS' continuous beam theory partially or totally invalid, and thus claim that a bolt delivers its energy over a hundredth of a second... much faster than how a visible bolt would seem to deliver its energy.
So you're going to have to argue that Acclamators' weapons have an energy to power factor around 100.
But what about the Munificent-class star frigates (say again?)? They're said to be able, in one shot from their double barreled main gun, to melt the entirety of a 1000 km wide ice moon (this comes from the ROTS:ICS).
Using Mike's calculator, and of course, assuming the detonation occurs from the inside, we already get: 66.2 petatons.
That's 276.9808 Yottajoules (276.9808 e24 J).
No cheating here, we're talking about an energy that's inferior, anyway, to what the gun is capable of since the energy will be deposited at the surface of the ice moon, not in its center, and since it will be entirely melted (at least, since with such energies, a great deal of the moon will be vapourized), the energy is likely going to be a few orders of magnitude superior, since it has to be done before it even has time to crack.
However, the ship is only listed with a power output of 2.1 e23 W. Which of course, doesn't line up with the mentionned ability.
Therfore, two solutions.
- Enters more wank. The ship has capacitors which can be charged during 131895.619 seconds (assuming all the reactor's power can be dumped into the capacitor), and then fire the energy.
Of course, we'd already wonder the point of a Death Star when ships can fire, supposedly, 200 GT of energy from their medium TLs. But there... even retarded wouldn't be enough of a description.
Besides, I didn't account for the bolt's energy delivery speed. Again, the power would be around 100 times the energy number it corresponds to, or at least 25 times the energy figure.
Needless to say, even a e-5~e-6 of that power would be far enough to one-shot the sturdiest ships of that era, on both sides. Even the likes of Executors would eat their pants.
And again, that's based on a firepower figure which is much inferior to what would be needed. - Extremely low power: ICS beam theory, zealot mode. The beam is fired during more than 131895.619 seconds (since, obviously, the deliver system is not perfect anyway, and we're assuming that all the energy can be channeled into the gun, continuously, for such an amount of time, at max power). That's more than 36.637 hours, at peak power. Which is problematic, as I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find a note, perhaps even in the ROTS novelization, that even Venators can't keep firing for so long and guns have to cool down.
"The two main reactors of a Munificent-class star frigate could together annihilate up to 2,300 tons of fuel per second. If one reactor failed, the other could power the ship on its own."
That's peak power. Compared to the Venator's 40,000 tons of fuel per second, it's ridiculous. And of course, the Venator's said to be able to put nearly all of its power output into its guns.
In conjunction with point 2, the Munificent ship, melting the moon with its two cannons gun, firing continuously, at peak power from the two reactor cores, would then burn a total 303,359,923.81 tons of fuel.
You may wish to roll a pair of eyes here.