Breaking down the statistics: SDN vs SFJ polls.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:15 pm

Praeothmin wrote:But it's still superior to the military skills of anyone who has never experienced it.
And if she did go through basic training and participated in training exercises, then by reading books recently, she can still correlate what she reads to what she experienced.

For example, are you retired?
If you are, and in 10 years time, you were to enter a debate about military tactics, would you then tell the people to ignore your posts because you haven't practiced those skills in 10 years?
Of course not, because even though you might have forgotten some things, even though your skills had eroded, you would still have your experience to rely on.

Which is why, I will say once more, that we cannot say she has no experience and doesn't know at all what she's talking about.
My point, which perhaps I'm not making well is that there is no reason to assume that her military experiance gives her any "edge" in writing these stories. The fact that we can't verify her service details lends even less credence to her credentials. As I've pointed out, if she was a Log Wog she has virtually no point of reference to base her Commando books on. The only similarity between the Log branch and the SOF is that they wear a uniform. Even if she was an infantier her experiance would basically count for nothing because Special Operations formations and tactics are radically different. She might know how to pepperpot but how does that translate into hostage retrieval (for example)?

I'm just not giving her the benefit of the doubt. Many deride Dr. Saxton for his work on the ICS and doubt his qualifications and conclusions, I am applying the same standard to Karen Traviss because this is an area which I have experiance with. And my experiance with Reservists (both domestic and foregin) has lead me to question everything they do because most of them are idiots.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:23 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:I'm just not giving her the benefit of the doubt. Many deride Dr. Saxton for his work on the ICS and doubt his qualifications and conclusions, I am applying the same standard to Karen Traviss because this is an area which I have experiance with. And my experiance with Reservists (both domestic and foregin) has lead me to question everything they do because most of them are idiots.
Hey, easy. I don't see that much people doubting Saxton's qualifications.
The only problems lie in the conclusions, or even the premises he works from.

As for Karen, pff, I don't know. I mean, with enough time and Google powers, we could be able to find what kind of formation she went through, right?

It's rather trendy, these days, to look around about the nature and content of one's claimed formations, isn't it? ;)

(TJhairball)

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Post by GStone » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:My point, which perhaps I'm not making well is that there is no reason to assume that her military experiance gives her any "edge" in writing these stories. The fact that we can't verify her service details lends even less credence to her credentials. As I've pointed out, if she was a Log Wog she has virtually no point of reference to base her Commando books on. The only similarity between the Log branch and the SOF is that they wear a uniform. Even if she was an infantier her experiance would basically count for nothing because Special Operations formations and tactics are radically different. She might know how to pepperpot but how does that translate into hostage retrieval (for example)?
I did find this:

http://www.bobafett.com/archives/000210.php

"JI: How much did your military background influence your writing the characters?

KT: I was a defense correspondent and it's mainly that job which provides most of the technical detail for my stories. Being a reservist did help me to get the mental attitude and sense of comradeship nailed down, though. Plus most of my family served in the military or the defense industry at some time in their lives. I grew up in a naval port that was also a garrison town. So it's part of the fabric of my life."

So, it's the reservist part and upbringing that she primarily draws on for social interactions and the correspondent one that let her get specs. The example that will always standout in my mind is where Geroldo gave away the soon to be used troop movements. However, her experience as a reservist would help her put any movements she was told of in a better context.
I'm just not giving her the benefit of the doubt. Many deride Dr. Saxton for his work on the ICS and doubt his qualifications and conclusions, I am applying the same standard to Karen Traviss because this is an area which I have experiance with.
But, when you're a defense correspondent, you aren't gonna report on upgrades to the mess. No major or semi-major news outlet or one trying to get more recognition will report on the mess. That's a subject an anchor can throw in as a one liner.
And my experiance with Reservists (both domestic and foregin) has lead me to question everything they do because most of them are idiots.
That's because of a lot of them joining up are just doing it for the money, to get in better shape and to gloat they're in the military.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:36 pm

Just a heads up: I'm waiting on some info, so it might be a few days before I get back too this.

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Re: Breaking down the statistics: SDN vs SFJ polls.

Post by Cpl Kendall » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:02 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Leaving aside the obvious handful whose credentials are known, up to and including people producing EU material as well as an award-winning science fiction author who did his undergraduate work at Caltech and has a Ph. D. in physics. He has worked for NASA, worked as a physics professor, consulted and served with practically everyone who is everyone. It may not take a rocket scientist to talk about Star Wars, but he is qualified as a rocket scientist.

On SDN, of course, he has been called a "spectacular moron," and it seems to be claimed that he knows nothing about science fiction or literary criticism - fields he is even more widely recognized in. On SDN, it is claimed that Karen Traviss, who both served in the British military and also worked as a defense correspondent, knows absolutely nothing military tactics, logistics, or even about Star Wars, which she is actively writing. It is claimed that Kennedy, who teaches physics to high school students every day, does not grasp the high-school level physics common to the VS debate.
I've seen this posted a few times on this board. But am I supposed to be able to determine who he is with my voodoo magic or are you going to identify him so I can actually look him up?

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Post by GStone » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:49 pm

JMS said to Praeothmin on the first page that it's David Brin.

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Re: Breaking down the statistics: SDN vs SFJ polls.

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:59 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:I've seen this posted a few times on this board. But am I supposed to be able to determine who he is with my voodoo magic or are you going to identify him so I can actually look him up?
I think you might be able to determine who it is, although as noted above, I already said it was David Brin; there are probably no more than a dozen people on the face of the planet who would fit that description in the first place. How many of those has SDN been complaining about?

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Re: Breaking down the statistics: SDN vs SFJ polls.

Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:38 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote: I think you might be able to determine who it is, although as noted above, I already said it was David Brin; there are probably no more than a dozen people on the face of the planet who would fit that description in the first place. How many of those has SDN been complaining about?
How would I know? I don't pay attention to everything that goes on there. I've never seen anything on him besides stating that The Postman was terrible, I agree with them. It was bloody awful.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:51 am

That's the nightmare with Costner, right? ...

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:34 pm

Yes.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:57 pm

I never bothered to see the movie, but everybody agrees it didn't get very good reviews - unlike the book, incidentally, which wasn't bad at all. It wouldn't be the first time that a perfectly decent piece of literature flopped at the box office in film adaptation.

Even Shakespeare flops at the box office sometimes.

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Post by Opecoiler » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:18 pm

Leaving aside the obvious handful whose credentials are known, up to and including people producing EU material as well as an award-winning science fiction author who did his undergraduate work at Caltech and has a Ph. D. in physics. He has worked for NASA, worked as a physics professor, consulted and served with practically everyone who is everyone. It may not take a rocket scientist to talk about Star Wars, but he is qualified as a rocket scientist.

On SDN, of course, he has been called a "spectacular moron," and it seems to be claimed that he knows nothing about science fiction or literary criticism - fields he is even more widely recognized in.
Brin was not taking part in the "Trek vs. Wars" physical debate (i.e How powerful are Trek ships compared to Wars ships). He was arguing that Trek was better from a thematic standpoint-that Trek carried a better message than Wars did.

Although it is just an opinion piece, the piece was done in apparent ignorance of the movies and (especially) the post-ROTJ EU. [ur=http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Brin.htmll]Mike Wong points it out in a criticism[/url]. A man's hard education level has nothing to do with the sort of "Soft" literary piece that Brin wrote and that many members of SDN got angry at.

So your example is invalid.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:26 pm

Opecoiler wrote:
Leaving aside the obvious handful whose credentials are known, up to and including people producing EU material as well as an award-winning science fiction author who did his undergraduate work at Caltech and has a Ph. D. in physics. He has worked for NASA, worked as a physics professor, consulted and served with practically everyone who is everyone. It may not take a rocket scientist to talk about Star Wars, but he is qualified as a rocket scientist.

On SDN, of course, he has been called a "spectacular moron," and it seems to be claimed that he knows nothing about science fiction or literary criticism - fields he is even more widely recognized in.
Brin was not taking part in the "Trek vs. Wars" physical debate (i.e How powerful are Trek ships compared to Wars ships). He was arguing that Trek was better from a thematic standpoint-that Trek carried a better message than Wars did.

Although it is just an opinion piece, the piece was done in apparent ignorance of the movies and (especially) the post-ROTJ EU. Mike Wong points it out in a criticism. A man's hard education level has nothing to do with the sort of "Soft" literary piece that Brin wrote and that many members of SDN got angry at.

So your example is invalid.
I can understand that the man didn't read bit of shit the EU has spewed. What I saw from Star Wars tell me that globally, people who are not part of some forms of elites are just as good as cockroaches, unless they're granted the blessings from people who belong to these elites (Han banging the princess).
As a whole, the galaxy seems to suck big balls. If you live on a peaceful planet, you must either get ready to be blockaded and put into camps by alien economists who thinks bucks before... no, just bucks. Or you have to get read to get blasted to bits by some big honking ball of pure hurt.
Otherwise, you live on a shitty sand ball, either having a crappy or being under another form of slavery, or you work for crime cartels.
Or you live in polluted over industrialized planets, likely nameless, either bound to be under heavy fire one day or another, fated to suffer from a BDZ.

I don't know how Trek looks like, but as far as I'm concerned, it sucks big times being in Star Wars. Oh sure, it's cool to be a princess, a queen, a supersoldier, a marvellous smuggler, a renowed bounty hunter, a rich business man, a Sith or a Jedi.

As a whole, there's something called the Empire that's, at best, making sure you're getting your soup for diner, and at worse, tries to silence you, kill you, and stomp you because you do not matter as an individual, if you get in its way.

Well, bias aside, the six films are all about wars, so it's sure that you're not going to look at a pretty picture anyway.

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Post by Opecoiler » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:30 pm

You missed the point. The point was not Brin's article itself. It was that what the SDN people were flaming him for was not related to his educational standards at all.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:12 am

Opecoiler wrote:You missed the point. The point was not Brin's article itself. It was that what the SDN people were flaming him for was not related to his educational standards at all.
They flamed him basically because he prefered Trek and gave a biased opinion?
Geez. If the amount of libel was justified and proportionate to how biased the other side is, we'd probably be beyond one insult per word, reduced to agressive simiesque sounds anytime we'd be talking to people from SDN.

Besides, your link doesn't work. Either Wong recently removed it, or you don't check your own sources beyond one click. That has to suck.

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