Groupthink, consensus, and a difference between SFJ and SDN

[Jedi Master Spock]

Recently, it came to my attention that someone on SDN posted the following "challenge."

Here's a challenge to the SFJ types:

Figure out what powers that you will accept can own the Federation so hard there is no point in attempting to argue the matter. At last count we have a six page stckied thread on the subject in regards to the Empire here. Show some 'reasoning'.

I'm posting to explain why we can never expect to see a similar sticky here. It's simple: SFJ is not designed to support groupthink, restrict topics from discussion, or suppress dissenting beliefs.

The purpose of the "guiding" stickies and rules posted at SDN are to avoid discussion that a certain core of members deem "pointless" - i.e., of which they are quite thoroughly convinced they know the answer. The effect of having the practice of restricting these discussions is to encourage groupthink by discouraging critical analysis of common conclusions within the community.

Anybody is welcome to question anything posted on SFJ; anybody is welcome to argue an unpopular view, or even an outright absurd view, so long as they can manage to keep their temper. Others may not agree with what they say - but they are quite welcome to say it and seek explanation as to why others disagree.

Nor do very many members here insist that the Federation can defeat anything. I myself suggested a strategic draw with the Empire in the short run over at ST.com; anybody who suggests that "those SFJ folks" think the Federation can handily defeat any other SF faction is misrepresenting SFJ.

[Praeothmin]

is misrepresenting SFJ.

When do they not?
They lump all of us in the same boat without even bothering to read the threads in the forums, because if they did, then they would see that not all of us think alike, especially on the SW vs ST aspects of this site.

In fact, a few of us here even believe that the Empire would definitely beat the Feds for many different reasons... But hey, nothing's new under the sun, right? :)

[GStone]

Recently, it came to my attention that someone on SDN posted the following "challenge."

Here's a challenge to the SFJ types:

Figure out what powers that you will accept can own the Federation so hard there is no point in attempting to argue the matter. At last count we have a six page stckied thread on the subject in regards to the Empire here. Show some 'reasoning'.

Oh, please. Where's the fun in that?! Versus debates for me wouldn't be nearly as fun for me if I couldn't do any kind of extrapolation of potentials. I may be one to frequently give example scenarios of why the Feds would beat the Empire, I have spoken of how the Empire (with its severe disadvantage given to it by the movie canon) might beat the Federation, while still using the movie canon.

[watchdog]

My only problem with the Empire curbstomping the Federation is that the warsies act as if it is a foregone conclusion no matter what, on the one hand they decry fanfics like star destroyer rampant (or whatever the hell it was called) with a single ISD destroying whole fleets of Federation ship with out recieving even a scratch, and then they turn around and start throwing out numbers that basically say the same thing while ignoring anything that says different.
I believe in using the EU material and I do believe that the Imperial fleet is bigger than the Federation fleet, but the massing of ships has never been seen as a practice of the Imperial Navy. The weapons have never appeared anywhere near as poweful as they claim, and they like to dismiss any instances of Trek superiority as one-time events that have no bearing on anything. I find them hypocritical and I dont like hypacrites.

[2046]

on the one hand they decry fanfics like star destroyer rampant (or whatever the hell it was called) with a single ISD destroying whole fleets of Federation ship with out recieving even a scratch

I think it's decried for its writing style more than its tech conclusions. As I recall, the author segues (without segue) into stuff on par with "haha! this is just like so-and-so's ASVS post", refers to Starfleet ships as "Star Trek ships", has characters saying "WTF", et cetera.

It's just bad.

[Mr. Oragahn]

My only problem with the Empire curbstomping the Federation is that the warsies act as if it is a foregone conclusion no matter what, on the one hand they decry fanfics like star destroyer rampant (or whatever the hell it was called) with a single ISD destroying whole fleets of Federation ship with out recieving even a scratch, and then they turn around and start throwing out numbers that basically say the same thing while ignoring anything that says different.
I believe in using the EU material and I do believe that the Imperial fleet is bigger than the Federation fleet, but the massing of ships has never been seen as a practice of the Imperial Navy. The weapons have never appeared anywhere near as poweful as they claim, and they like to dismiss any instances of Trek superiority as one-time events that have no bearing on anything. I find them hypocritical and I dont like hypacrites.

Another interesting factor is who dictates where battles take place. If the Empire invades a new galaxy, hyperspace routes will be a huge unknown, and will take a hell of a time for ships to probe space and move around.
Even more as these ships won't be freely conducting recon, but actually face enemy forces.
Now, you also have to deal with Trek's warp speeds, but in the end, the gap is reduced, though I believe it's still in the advantage of Star Wars forces.
That said, I don't know the latest stories about Trek warp.

[watchdog]

My only problem with the Empire curbstomping the Federation is that the warsies act as if it is a foregone conclusion no matter what, on the one hand they decry fanfics like star destroyer rampant (or whatever the hell it was called) with a single ISD destroying whole fleets of Federation ship with out recieving even a scratch, and then they turn around and start throwing out numbers that basically say the same thing while ignoring anything that says different.
I believe in using the EU material and I do believe that the Imperial fleet is bigger than the Federation fleet, but the massing of ships has never been seen as a practice of the Imperial Navy. The weapons have never appeared anywhere near as poweful as they claim, and they like to dismiss any instances of Trek superiority as one-time events that have no bearing on anything. I find them hypocritical and I dont like hypacrites.

Another interesting factor is who dictates where battles take place. If the Empire invades a new galaxy, hyperspace routes will be a huge unknown, and will take a hell of a time for ships to probe space and move around.
Even more as these ships won't be freely conducting recon, but actually face enemy forces.
Now, you also have to deal with Trek's warp speeds, but in the end, the gap is reduced, though I believe it's still in the advantage of Star Wars forces.
That said, I don't know the latest stories about Trek warp.

Funny You should mention this topic, see this old, old post by me way back when;
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=6085

[GStone]

There is also the fact that many say they will just get star charts from someone, like a ferengi, but would it be enough? For warp, you need a heading, the FTL computer/sensors and a propulsive warp field. The requirement of needing precise calculations may come down to one thing: does Wars computers have any faster-than-light capabilities. Not having any might explain why it's thought to be not safe to pilot manually and not getting precise calcs. The only info I know of that speaks of wars computers at all is in the EU. If there's any in the movie canon, I think it's either vague or not of use.

If this is the case, the level of detail on the specs of an area of space for warp might not be the specs needed for a hyperdrive. What might happen is that the charts might make space mapping quicker, but how quick is unknown.

Does anyone know how long it takes to map a section of space? I know this'll be eu info, but it's at least a place to start.

[watchdog]

I had once tried to figure that out based off of Grand Admiral Thrawns 'mapping' mission, which I believe took ten years or so. Thrawn himself is from the unknown regions.

[Mike DiCenso]

Which begs the question of how much knowledge Thrawn himself chose to add or withhold from the Galactic Empire about the so-called "Unknown Regions".

Also, I would have to wonder if the EU-created Unknown Regions can still exist in the post PT era with it being made canon that apparently all or nearly all of the SW galaxy has been mapped and explored extensively. It's either that or the Jedi librarian was given to arrogant hyperbole.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

It's either that or the Jedi librarian was given to arrogant hyperbole.

Well, from the movies and the books I read, arrogant Jedi seem to be the norm in the SW Galaxy, so I wouldn't be surprised.

[watchdog]

It was just arrogance on her part, nthing in the movies suggests the whole galaxy has been explored besides, the unknown regions dont appear to be all that big.
The area thrawn had mapped was mentioned in the book specters of the past I believe although they never mentioned how much was mapped exactly.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It was just arrogance on her part, nthing in the movies suggests the whole galaxy has been explored besides, the unknown regions dont appear to be all that big.
The area thrawn had mapped was mentioned in the book specters of the past I believe although they never mentioned how much was mapped exactly.

According to various EU maps, the UR represent nearly half of the galaxy, on the other side of core worlds.

http://www.starwars.idv.tw/starwarsgalaxy.jpg
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Star%20Wars/S ... galaxy.jpg
http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2005/4 ... _map_2.jpg
http://www.evolution-rpg.com/images/gmapnew2wc.jpg
http://images.darkhorse.com/darkhorse/d ... map_lg.jpg

[watchdog]

Aside from the first and last maps, these are all new to me. The thing is, the maps for star wars have never been very clear, they always look like some kind of modern art.
Acording to the EU, this galaxy has had hyperdrive for 25 millenia now and yet they haven't fully explored their whole galaxy yet. I recall Q telling Captain Janeway that they were not supposed to be in the Delta quadrant for another century, how telling.
I think this points to the limitation of the hyperdrive, how you need precise calculations in order to go anywhere, most warsies seem to think that it works like a much faster form of warp only harder to track. How wrong they are.

[GStone]

But, if it requires knowing about only a limited number of things, like star placement and gravity fields, is it really necessary to have that detailed a map beforehand? Han said without precise calculations, you could fly through a star, but wouldn't they already have some kind of FTL sensors for flight to make sure you were on course anyway? Precise calculations doesn't need to mean details of every stray particle.