Groupthink, consensus, and a difference between SFJ and SDN

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watchdog
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Post by watchdog » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:44 am

Well supposedly they have a hyperdrive cuttof sensor, it detects gravity wells in hyperspace and cuts of the hyperdrive upon contact. It's why interdictor cruisers work and apparently the ship always exits within the gravity well rather than just outside of it. I havent heard much about this device in a while though, it may have been retconed away.
As for the maps, they are only to allow us to know the basic layout of star wars thats why distance and size are not a major concern.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:14 pm

The interdictor hicjacking tactic has not been retconned afaik.

It's really impressive that such a portion of the galaxy is uncharted. There's no spin to put on that, the few planets which see on some maps have been added because they were present in some EU products, just to know where they are.
There's not a main trade route around the core on the unexplored side.

They even have an arm on the explored side still called "wild space", with no world of reference, suggesting another unexplored zone.

Han had to enter the jumpoints (and waypoints I suppose) for a trip between Tatooine and Alderaan. According to the maps, that would mean follow the Corellian Run way, which would explain the short trip... well, we don't know how long it was really, but in comparison to trips said to last weeks or months, half a day or even a whole day trip is considerably short.
It may have been shorter, but then one would have to consider how much time it took for Maul to go from Coruscant to Tatooine.

Even if Coruscant is on the other side of the core, there's a well known route, the Metellos Trade route, that goes around the core, passes not far from Alderaan, and ends at Corellia, from where the Corellian Run starts.

So I don't think it would take much more time to get to Coruscant from Tatooine, than to get to Alderaan from Tatooine.

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Post by watchdog » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:56 pm

Oh they've spun it, believe me. The claim is that it's a lacking of general knowledge of whats out there but that its easy to get to because you can look up in the sky and see the stars or something along those lines, its the same claim they make when you point out the empire cant just establish a base on one end of the milky way and zip back and forth at will destroying federation targets. Mike Wong himself actually insisted to me that it's easy to look up in the sky and see where the stars and other navigating hazzards are, the proper reply to that would be, OK, so what is currently on the opposite side of the galaxy right now? I dont think any of them has ever done any sky watching, and because there is a lack of them in the star wars movies, these peple seem to be unaware of something known as a nebula, which are never the small tiny clouds seen in star trek but huge light-years long bands of dust and matter stretching across the galaxy obscuring the view, for instance;
http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007 ... on-beauty/
It is possible that the star wars galaxy is devoid of much dust, such older galaxies like that do exist. but a lot of the warsies out there seem to think that their hyperdrive system works like a faster version of warp with no side effects. Can they be any more wrong.

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Post by watchdog » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:06 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Han had to enter the jumpoints (and waypoints I suppose) for a trip between Tatooine and Alderaan. According to the maps, that would mean follow the Corellian Run way, which would explain the short trip... well, we don't know how long it was really, but in comparison to trips said to last weeks or months, half a day or even a whole day trip is considerably short.
It may have been shorter, but then one would have to consider how much time it took for Maul to go from Coruscant to Tatooine.

Even if Coruscant is on the other side of the core, there's a well known route, the Metellos Trade route, that goes around the core, passes not far from Alderaan, and ends at Corellia, from where the Corellian Run starts.

So I don't think it would take much more time to get to Coruscant from Tatooine, than to get to Alderaan from Tatooine.
Check this thread out for an old response I had for the hyperspace travel. The way it was explained to me was that along the well established routes that are well maintained, travel is easy. the MF supposedly reaches 127 LY per hour, but along an unused hyperspace path it probably can only make 110 ly per hour or lower, depending on the routes upkeep like a major highway vs a washed-out dirt road.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:35 am

watchdog wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Han had to enter the jumpoints (and waypoints I suppose) for a trip between Tatooine and Alderaan. According to the maps, that would mean follow the Corellian Run way, which would explain the short trip... well, we don't know how long it was really, but in comparison to trips said to last weeks or months, half a day or even a whole day trip is considerably short.
It may have been shorter, but then one would have to consider how much time it took for Maul to go from Coruscant to Tatooine.

Even if Coruscant is on the other side of the core, there's a well known route, the Metellos Trade route, that goes around the core, passes not far from Alderaan, and ends at Corellia, from where the Corellian Run starts.

So I don't think it would take much more time to get to Coruscant from Tatooine, than to get to Alderaan from Tatooine.
Check this thread out for an old response I had for the hyperspace travel. The way it was explained to me was that along the well established routes that are well maintained, travel is easy. the MF supposedly reaches 127 LY per hour, but along an unused hyperspace path it probably can only make 110 ly per hour or lower, depending on the routes upkeep like a major highway vs a washed-out dirt road.
In some ways that's much more realistic - and, like the "warp highway" theory DITL proposes, helps explain why speeds are so all over the place, but unfortunately, it makes SW FTL speeds in the Trek galaxy impossible to quantify.

On the plus side, it's actually got a lot of backing in the EU, which talks about common hyperspace routes.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:57 am

watchdog wrote: The claim is that it's a lacking of general knowledge of whats out there but that its easy to get to because you can look up in the sky and see the stars or something along those lines, its the same claim they make when you point out the empire cant just establish a base on one end of the milky way and zip back and forth at will destroying federation targets. Mike Wong himself actually insisted to me that it's easy to look up in the sky and see where the stars and other navigating hazzards are, the proper reply to that would be, OK, so what is currently on the opposite side of the galaxy right now? I dont think any of them has ever done any sky watching, and because there is a lack of them in the star wars movies, these peple seem to be unaware of something known as a nebula, which are never the small tiny clouds seen in star trek but huge light-years long bands of dust and matter stretching across the galaxy obscuring the view, for instance;
http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007 ... on-beauty/
Do I unterstand that correct, before travelling to a destination with velocities several million times of c, they want to look at that destination to see, if there is anything in their way?

Do they know, that light and every other known natural phenomenon propagates maximal with c and that, what we see now from the other side of the galaxy, has happened several ten thousand years before now?

It's not that easy, even if there wouldn't be any obscuring clouds.

They would have to see any relevant details, that means every planet or comet, regardless how difficult it is to see such small objects from a distance of thousands of light years, and every other space object, even those, who are not visible like black holes and can only be detected by drawn-out observations of their surroundings.

And when they have catalogued all relevant objects, they have still to calculate, what all these billions objects were doing in the time, that has lasted for the light to reach the observer and will do in the time, it would need the observer to reach its destination.

I doubt, that this is possible at all, let alone in a short time, considering how long the computer of the Millenium Falcon has needed to calculate the data for their travel from Tatooine to Alderaan, although they have had an up-to-date map from their galaxy and not several thousand years old data.

And that would be only natural phenomenons. Changes, done by spacefaring civilications, like travelling starships, the building of spacestations or Dyson Spheres, the generation of new planets, the destroying of planets or whole starsystems etc. are far faster than natural changes and not calculable.

And considering how precise the calculations for the travel from Tatooine to Alderaan had to be, such artificial phenomenons could be very relevant, although the probability that they are lying on a direct path to the destination is very low. After all, the probability that something would lie on a path, that is choosen without any calculations is also near zero. One could arbitrarily choose a path through the galaxy and would probably not collide with anything.
But it seems, that this is not enough. Otherwise, Han could have jumped to hyperspeed, when he was chased by Star Destroyers in »A New Hope« without waiting for any calculations from the navi-computer and could have calculated the exact route to Alderaan after he has left behind his persecutors. But, as he has said, he couldn't go to hyperspeed until he has gotten the exact data from the navi-computer.

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Post by GStone » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:06 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:In some ways that's much more realistic - and, like the "warp highway" theory DITL proposes, helps explain why speeds are so all over the place, but unfortunately, it makes SW FTL speeds in the Trek galaxy impossible to quantify.
I don't think it's as bad as it seems. What happens with hyperdrives in the EU, is no different from any other machine's regular operating efficiency and optimal operating efficiency. Given the odds of coming across the different kinds of space debris, the difference between normal and optimal efficiency isn't gonna be that much.

There is something I just noticed. There is no deflector for wars ships/fighters. There's not even something in the ICS pictures. The hyperspace field must act like a deflector to move stuff out of the way, along with it's normal FTL travel capabilities. Maybe it has something to do with the leading 'edge' of the field.

If we assume that navcomputer mapping really only needs the location of celestial bodies of the size of planets, stars, etc. and gravity fields at and above a certain level of intensity, they might do well in known trade/travel routes of the major passageways because those (at least) are gonna have some 'fixing'. The hyperspace field takes care of shoving aside what they come across, so the navcomputer chooses the best route to keep the hyperspace field from destabilizing.

In fact, now that I think about it, there is also a chance that a hyperdrive might do very well, if a navcomputer takes into account the other energy fields/data that you'd probably find with warp maps. If the hyperspace field is electromagnetic in nature, it'd make sense that navcomputers would have already been designed to calculate other EM fields in its equations.
On the plus side, it's actually got a lot of backing in the EU, which talks about common hyperspace routes.
As to that, my guess would be that not only are stray debris removed from the area of the routes, there might be machines that help stabalize the energy fields in and surrounding the routes from the native objects and neutralize/reduce other energy fields that have wandered into the area, so that there can be optimal efficiencies.

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Post by watchdog » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:55 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:Do I unterstand that correct, before travelling to a destination with velocities several million times of c, they want to look at that destination to see, if there is anything in their way?

Do they know, that light and every other known natural phenomenon propagates maximal with c and that, what we see now from the other side of the galaxy, has happened several ten thousand years before now?

It's not that easy, even if there wouldn't be any obscuring clouds.

They would have to see any relevant details, that means every planet or comet, regardless how difficult it is to see such small objects from a distance of thousands of light years, and every other space object, even those, who are not visible like black holes and can only be detected by drawn-out observations of their surroundings.

And when they have catalogued all relevant objects, they have still to calculate, what all these billions objects were doing in the time, that has lasted for the light to reach the observer and will do in the time, it would need the observer to reach its destination.

I doubt, that this is possible at all, let alone in a short time, considering how long the computer of the Millenium Falcon has needed to calculate the data for their travel from Tatooine to Alderaan, although they have had an up-to-date map from their galaxy and not several thousand years old data.

And that would be only natural phenomenons. Changes, done by spacefaring civilications, like travelling starships, the building of spacestations or Dyson Spheres, the generation of new planets, the destroying of planets or whole starsystems etc. are far faster than natural changes and not calculable.

And considering how precise the calculations for the travel from Tatooine to Alderaan had to be, such artificial phenomenons could be very relevant, although the probability that they are lying on a direct path to the destination is very low. After all, the probability that something would lie on a path, that is choosen without any calculations is also near zero. One could arbitrarily choose a path through the galaxy and would probably not collide with anything.
But it seems, that this is not enough. Otherwise, Han could have jumped to hyperspeed, when he was chased by Star Destroyers in »A New Hope« without waiting for any calculations from the navi-computer and could have calculated the exact route to Alderaan after he has left behind his persecutors. But, as he has said, he couldn't go to hyperspeed until he has gotten the exact data from the navi-computer.
Speaking of natural phenomena, imagine having to catalog something like this;
http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007 ... annonball/
Durring that original e-mail exchange with Mr. Wong I just suggested heading towards a star that recently went nova (he insisted that such stars give tell tale signs before that happens, yeah but you gotta studdy them for a good long while to catch it), But imagine running into one of these rouges.

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