SDN Thread on "freighter vs E-D"

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SDN Thread on "freighter vs E-D"

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:58 pm

After SSFPheonix suggested looking at some "E-D poll" on SDN, I decided to take a look.

See here for the thread. I am actually surprised to see a majority of respondents suggesting that the E-D would be destroyed and an unarmed SW freighter survive.

Accordingly, my question is this: Do you think that poll is sarcastic or serious?

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:19 pm

I would say, based on the various reponses, that it is a mix of both the serious and the sarcastic. That any of the half-believe that such a small freighter ramming will have an actual effect on the shields, never mind the hull of the E-D is beyond silly. Even assuming the actual E-D's hull and warp core were so terribly vunerable, the shields have been shown in the past as being capable of handling KE impacts ranging from Roga Danar's purloined prison transport (somewhat bigger than the Millenium Falcon), all the way up to the kilometers tall Crystaline Entity ("The Hunted" and "Datalore" respectively).
-Mike

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Post by l33telboi » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:19 pm

I doubt you can create a debate where SW doesn't come on top on SDN anymore and serious debate seems to have died down. I guess it's only natural since there's no one left to debate against SW on the board.

Take the whole 'which is more corrupt, Empire or Federation' debate. Take one guess as to which one will turn out to be more currupt by the end of the debate?

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:15 pm

Leetelboi wrote:Take the whole 'which is more corrupt, Empire or Federation' debate. Take one guess as to which one will turn out to be more currupt by the end of the debate?
It's already starting to side with the Federation being more corrupted.
:)

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Post by GStone » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:01 am

Well, that's because the Federation is a good example of excessive liberalism. Most things are government controlled, even though replicators, phasers and warp drive gives the outcome of a lesser need of government control programs by creating more situations where the populace is more self-sufficient. It's Feddie propaganda that people are social creatures and they form governmental bodies to create a greater whole than what the individual pieces could do on their own. There's something in the air and water, too.

All people are really loners and it's more political machianations to say many suffer from skin hunger. It' better to make people work jobs they hate, to suffer medical conditions while doing them, for low wages, while feeling unappreciated and burnt out in hopes they can get a pension and that they don't get axed because of budget cuts or your superiors wanting to keep clients happy (so, they don't give a damn about your side of things). Also, you shouldn't need pollution free equipment. Limited resource wasting, smog spitters are better.

Fuck the environment.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

I think you mean Socialist there, Gstone as that is one of the types of government where the state runs most industries. However, we have no real evidence that such a situation exists in the Federation, as we rarely ever see or hear much about civilian life outside of Starfleet. We do know that while the overall economy of Earth is very different, there are still private businesses, like Joseph Sisko's Creole Kitchen, or Kassidy Yate's freighter service, or independant scout/traders like Cyrano Jones and Harry Mudd. What we do not know about for any real certainty is the existance of moderate or large-sized corporations.
-Mike

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Post by GStone » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:06 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:We do know that while the overall economy of Earth is very different, there are still private businesses, like Joseph Sisko's Creole Kitchen, or Kassidy Yate's freighter service, or independant scout/traders like Cyrano Jones and Harry Mudd.
What if small businesses in the Federation is done more as a hobby.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:10 am

That may very well be possible where Joseph Sisko is concerned. But it does not explain away other situations, like the dilithium miners in "Mudd's Women", or Kassidy Yates, or any other character who makes what appears to be an actual living off of what they do.
-Mike

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Post by CrippledVulture » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:30 pm

We're covered this ground before, so I'm going to attempt to take it to the next level and suggest a possible system for the Federation.

Replicators seem to be commonplace for Federation citizens. They appear to be as common as a microwave, with only old-timers holding out and refusing to use them. I am not suggesting that they completely remove the need for a workforce of any kind, but they certainly reduce this need to a large extent. The time and effort required to keep the replicator system up and running is a fraction of a percent of the effort required to manage all the various industries and such that provide all the services a replicator provides. Thus, the system does not require its citizens to work as much.

Now, we have never seen evidence that the Federation disallows private enterprise, in fact, it seems to be commonplace. However, GStone has a point about the hobby-like nature of some of these ventures. Indeed, almost everyone we see who has a job seems to be quite passionate about it. No one works a job they dislike just because they have to work somewhere.

Here is my suggestion, which I think is perfectly possible, canonically. The Federation maintains the replicator system. They manufacture them, install and service them, and provide them with power. These are all rather simple things given the Federation's level of technology. Replicator use is managed by the Federation credits system. Anyone can earn credits by working to keep the replicators up and running and supplied with power. Since this is not a demanding job, one can probably live simply for a week with one day's shift at the power plant. (This would also explain why no one outside the Federation likes to use Fed credits)

Now, no one is required to work the replicators their entire lives. If someone wants to start their own business venture, they simply work a few extra shifts, save up the credits required for the energy and replicator patterns they need, and go off on their own. The nature of replicators means that not only do people need to work less, but the amount of capital required to start your own business is very small.

Way off-topic. Sorry.

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Post by Kazeite » Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:04 pm

Right.

Anyway, I'm eagerly waiting for SDN thread which "proves" that lone stormtrooper which fell from ISD can puncture E-D shields and hull :D
(Hey, they are claiming that modern bullets can puncture E-D, hull after all, aren't they? :))

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Post by GStone » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:13 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:That may very well be possible where Joseph Sisko is concerned. But it does not explain away other situations, like the dilithium miners in "Mudd's Women", or Kassidy Yates, or any other character who makes what appears to be an actual living off of what they do.
-Mike
There are problems with making some things with the replicators. Some people might also not like things reproduced, preferring some things not replicated but 'the old fashion way'. Wasn't dilithium at the time not able to be recylced after a while?

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:46 pm

Dilithium at the time of "Mudd's Women" could not be re-crystalized or whatever. But we know clearly that even by the 24th century, Dilithium still needs to be mined on a fairly regular basis, so that is not a way out from the need for miners to work to obtain it for use in starships.
-Mike

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:00 pm

CrippledVulture wrote:
Now, we have never seen evidence that the Federation disallows private enterprise, in fact, it seems to be commonplace. However, GStone has a point about the hobby-like nature of some of these ventures. Indeed, almost everyone we see who has a job seems to be quite passionate about it. No one works a job they dislike just because they have to work somewhere.
For a few of those jobs, like Joseph Sisko's restaurant, yes, that seems to be true. But once again, it does not explain away all the examples that we've seen. The Rigel XII miners, for instance, who are described as "lonely, isolated, overworked, rich lithium miners", and are seen as living in pretty harsh, frontier-style life. They did not seem passionate for any reason except that what they were doing would make them wealthy. And don't tell me that the girls Harry Mudd were transporting as "mail order brides" of a sort were doing that as their passionate hobby.
-Mike

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:35 pm

Here's another article on economics in Star Trek:

http://www.ditl.org/hedarticle.php?25

Graham Kennedy outlines a fairly good description of various examples of money being used in and outside of the Federation. Most interesting to note is that Humans in general do not seem to use money ("In the Cards" [DS9]), while Vulcans and other Federation members do. Also interesting is that Vash had to use some form of currency to get around the Federation to Risa in "Captain's Holiday" [TNG].
-Mike

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Post by watchdog » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:55 pm

Kazeite wrote:Right.

Anyway, I'm eagerly waiting for SDN thread which "proves" that lone stormtrooper which fell from ISD can puncture E-D shields and hull :D
(Hey, they are claiming that modern bullets can puncture E-D, hull after all, aren't they? :))
Are you serious, are they really being that stupid? They completely ignore the fact of the navigational deflectors used to clear the path of micro particles that would be moving faster than any bullet. I have a hard time believing that anyone could be that dumb (but then again, my motto is 'people are stupid).

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