The Darksaber Argument

[Mr. Oragahn]

Darksaber is one of those EU books which are often cited by Trekkies to point out how the EU also sports its load of inferior firepower figures, which gained considerable value the day the AOTC: ICS appeared.
It's much despised by ICS defenders, and KJA is the subject of much personnal attacks. Everything, from his logic, intelligence and writing skills go through the hate grinder.

Well, let's see if Darksaber is indeed a correct example of low maximum firepower.

Globally, the evidence, as it is presented by Trekkies, is that Admiral Daala ordered Yavin 4 to be destroyed, with turbolasers fired at full power.

But we actually get a chance to read the quotes in detail, there are *bits* which are usually left out, and that's unfortunate, because they seem to make quite a difference in the final picture you'd honestly paint after reading them.

Here's the extract from page 292:

"We strike from orbit. All turbolaser batteries, full strength. Fire at will, targeting any structures in the jungle."

This is an order passed to the whole fleet. Imperial Star Destroyers were used in that case, while Daala would use the Arc Hammer, and Executor sister.

Considering the "importance" of the source, it clearly gathered much attention.
Wayne Poe even dedicated an entire page to this argument, called THE DARKSABER BDZ ARGUMENT - because everything is related to the Base Delta Zero operation.

The idea is that Trekkies use Darksaber as one element of evidence to show that a certain generous interpretation of the BDZ order would be impossible, considering the levels of firepower imperial ships are capable of.

I'll leave the BDZ argument aside, it's sufficiently argued on its own.

What matters here, is that on his page, Poe attempts to demonstrate that Darksaber can't be used as an "antiproof" against his vision of what a BDZ is.

So what we have to do here, is understand what turbolaser batteries mean, and look at the whole context, to properly gauge the orders passed on by Daala.

• Turbolaser batteries
  
  Poe argues that KJA's use of the term "batteries" shows what he had in mind, and this much differs with what Trekkies usually understand.
  He argues that KJA, when writing his book, used certain sources, such as the Star Wars Sourcebook, and other canon sources (read EU sources).
  
  Basically, the idea is that KJA would have not taken a single nut of liberty in the way he'd label the ship's weapons. Nevermind, for example, if a Colt can be either called a revolver, a pistol, but also be called a firearm, a handgun, or a gun.
  Please note that "gun" can, for example, also be used to described "a cannon with a long barrel and a relatively low angle of fire".
  
  The idea that an author would have strictly adhered to the formulation of another book, while multiple choices are available, is rather absurd.
  
  He gets an extract from another book, Isard's Revenge, which plays out as such (page 107):
  
  "Moonshadow's gunners concentrated their fire along Direption's port edge, seeking to destroy the other ship's weaponry. Heavy turbolasers, heavy turbolaser cannons, and ion beams all played out, splashing red and blue energy across Direption's shields."
  
  The Moonshadow and Direption were both Imperial II-class Star Destroyers.
  The bad point is that Isard's Revenge is a book from Stackpole, not KJA. So mentionning such an extract couldn't be more irrelevant.
  
  So we ask ourselves: are there any turbolaser batteries on ISDs Mark II?
  
  Well, Poe thinks not:
  

  First of all, a true BDZ op would consist of using the heaviest weapons on a Star Destroyer. According to the Star Wars Sourcebook, turbolaser batteries are mounted in five-gun units. Each battery contains three turrets, two of which are double-mounted, and one single-mounted. These are NOT the heavy turbolaser turrets that line both sides of the superstructure of Star Destroyers.
  
  Click here for a picture of heavy turbolasers on a Star Destroyer. (Photo Courtesy: SWTC)

  So, here we are. The idea is that KJA would have not deviated from the SWSB's definition of turbolaser batteries, nor would he have disagreed with what that sourcebook said.
  
  In his flawed opinion, it seems that all EU sources are 100% consistent, even in times when there was nothing such as the Holocron to monitor all this stuff.
  Yes, we know that's not the case.
  
  Please note the image he uses as evidence for his argument, that there are no turbolaser batteries on ISDs, since "turbolaser batteries are mounted in five-gun units". 3 turrets per battery.
  
  On this image, what do we see, exactly?
  
  Yes, turbolaser batteries.
  
  Oh, sure, it's not the sourcebook's definition, but does Poe have any proof at all that KJA used the sourcebook definition?
  
  Even more, what are these four neatly aligned pieces of artillery, according to that same sourcebook, if not precisely a battery of four turbolaser turrets?
  
  So yes, a turbolaser battery is nothing more than a group or pieces of artillery. In that case, turbolasers. No matter their caliber.
  
  So now that we know Daala orders all of these guns pointed at the planet and to fire at "full strenght", let's look at the other details.
• Nature of the attack
  
  What did Daala really want, precisely?
  How did the assault play out?
  
  Again, the extract:
  
  "'Do we have plans for an attack, Admiral?' the weapons chief said from his station, looking disappointed as he assessed his array of weaponry.
  'Yes,' Daala said. 'We strike from orbit. All turbolaser batteries, full strength. Fire at will, targeting any structures in the jungle.'"
  
  Daala wanted the structures in the jungle targeted. Including the Massassi temple (the Great Temple), which according to the ANH novelisation, was already described as an exceptionally solid structure.
  
  If there is a thing that is clear, it is that there is no proof that a Base Delta Zero was ordered. But this is not the point. We can see that Poe actually built a complete false argument, a strawman, for his whole page.
  
  Without treading on the firepower part right now, let's look at the evidence used to argue that Daala wouldn't want her most powerful turbolasers to be liquifying the surface of the planet.
  
  Here's why:
  
  Poe shows that Pellaeon deployed ground troops (and an air cover):
  

  Darksaber (Hardcover)
  
  pg.276: "Strike teams prepare," he said. "We launch in five minutes. All Terrain Scout Transports and jungle assault vehicles will be the first wave. TIE fighters will provide air cover."
  
  This is hardly a command one would employ if the surface of a world is to be completely destroyed.
  

  The point would be to wonder... does Daala really care about the troops on the ground, and the TIE fighters in the sky?
  
  Well, not much, actually:
  
  "Then an indiscriminate river of fire seared through the atmosphere, ripping the air apart in a screaming ionization path. A massive turbolaser bolt from orbit struck one of the TIE fighters and disintegrated it in a puff of released energy. The shockwave fuffeted the Falcon, making Han and Chewbacca scramble to regain control of the ship." Darksaber, page 356.
  
  Though you got to be cautious about this event, what we see is that the starships were ordered to fire on the planet, while apparently there was still some semblance of imperial presence in the targets' vicinity.
  
  The other question would be "is Daala totally sane?"
  From what I understood, I don't think so. Even Poe notice the sort of disturbed behaviour she seems to bare at some point. Even though Poe interprets the exact quotes erroneously.
  
  Let's resume:
  

  Obviously, Pellaeon knows exactly what result Daala wants, which is backed up by her musings about the event:
  
  pg.277: After today, when Daala departed in triumph, the jungle moon of Yavin 4 must be no more than a cinder. Every last Jedi student had to be killed, their bodies strwen about the burning jungle as an unmistakable message to those who would still dare resist the Empire.
  

  Extremely interesting quote.
  
  Notice, for example, how for once, they do not take "Yavin 4 must be no more than a cinder" literally, contrary to their habits. Probably because the book shows that the after effects of the TL bombardment are nowhere that.
  
  Other point; Pellaeon thinks that the best way to get rid of every Jedi student is to land troops and deploy an air cover.
  This is in rather complete contradiction with the orders that Daala pass later on, when she's directly monitoring the operation. Apparently, contrary to Pellaeon, she doesn't seek meticulosity here, and is largely satisfied by a carpet bombing from orbit.
  
  So, well, did Pellaeon really agree or understood Daala?
  Not so sure in fact.
  So the following part of Poe's argument becomes quite amusing:
  

  Direct evidence of what Daala wants exactly. There can be no burning jungle if the crust is slagged.

  Huh, maybe because the crust cannot be slagged, actually?
  
  Poe is looking at this from the perspective of a stance that has him believe in the (at least) 200 gigatons turbolasers... in order to support the reality of the 200 GT weapons.
  That is nothing more than circular reasoning.
  
  Based on Isard's Revenge (yes, Poe used that tactic, so we do), with weapons in the kiloton range, you'll never manage to slag the crust of a planet, unless you had lot of time on your hands, hundreds if not thousands of ships and lots of fuel to sustain the operation.
  
  So maybe there's no crust being slagged because the ships precisely can't slag it.
  

  Also, how the fuck do you destroy a world as a BDZ attack indicates, AND still leave corpses behind?
  Do you garrote the Jedi Padawans, load their bodies in a shuttle, perform a BDZ, then dump their bodies back down on the planet? Obviously not.

  That is funny. While Poe mounts arguments to show that Darksaber is not about a BDZ, remember that a BDZ operation even allows captures.
  Such an orbital attack as a BDZ would actually leave many corpses.
  But let's leave that point aside.
  We're not here to argue that there was a BDZ operation here, because there precisely was none.
  

  Then we have the following quote, which proves that Daala is as mixed up as a transsexual at an abortion clinic:
  
  pg.266: "You will take your fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers directly to Yavin 4 and proceed with its complete destruction. I will follow in the Night Hammer with sufficient force to occupy the Rebel base permanantly".
  
  "Occupy the rebel base permanently"? Hmm...how does one occupy a base that is on a small jungle moon that she ordered "destroyed?" And how, ladies and gents, does one occupy a base that Pellaeon says they will destroy before the rebels know they are on the march? Curiouser and curiouser. Sure doesn't sound like anything even remotely resembling a BDZ will be taking place there.

  BDZ aside, could there be another interpretation of the word "occupy"?
  

  Occupy Definition:
  
  1: to engage the attention or energies of.
  2a: to take up (a place or extent in space) <this chair is occupied> <the fireplace will occupy this corner of the room>
  2b: to take or fill (an extent in time). <the hobby occupies all of my free time>
  3a: to take or hold possession or control of. <enemy troops occupied the ridge>
  3b: to fill or perform the functions of (an office or position)4: to reside in as an owner or tenant.

  Notice how definition 1 pretty much means "grab the attention".
  
  In this light, the Arc Hammer could have been used to have the rebels focus their attention of Daala's ship.
  
  But in all honesty, the "permanantly" bit simply fits way better with the other interpretations, as "seizing control of".
  
  In the end, however, there's also the simple fact that if you consider the definitions that argue for "take control of", which is also possible, and possibly likely, in the end, Daala ordered the whole place to be destroyed, and had turbolasers fired at full strenght to do so.
  
  The extract itself shows a lack of consistency. It also shows where the idea that it could be close to a BDZ attack comes from:
  
  "You will take your fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers directly to Yavin 4 and proceed with its complete destruction."
  
  If anything, that would surely prove Daala's insanity.
  

  There can be no bodies left lying around in a non-existent jungle. Therefore, we once again know exactly what Daala ordered: the death of all Jedi students, the destruction of their training center, and a burning jungle.
  
  She ALSO wants to occupy said destroyed training center, so once AGAIN, we have evidence against anything resembling a BDZ, which, in the example of Caamas, leaves firestorms burning for years on the surface, uses enough firepower that the vegetation boils off the world, leaves the world a dead rock, and the vast majority of the population dead on it. That would be a tad difficult to garrison, wouldn't you say?

  His gross misinterpretation of the Caamas incident aside, the point remains that turbolasers were ordered to fire at the structures on the surface, at full strenght.
  In the end, the nature of Daala's orders is not even that clear, may not matter that much. It needed to be adressed, but we see that it can really go bothways.
  
  Leaving this part behind us, we get to the crucial part of this argument:
• The firepower
  
  That's basically the spine of the debate here.
  
  Let's get a couple of notes on the effects of the bombardment, which happens a couple of pages later:
  

  "'Do we have plans for an attack, Admiral?' the weapons chief said from his station, looking disappointed as he assessed his array of weaponry.
  'Yes,' Daala said. 'We strike from orbit. All turbolaser batteries, full strength. Fire at will, targeting any structures in the jungle.'"
  ["Darksaber", p. 311]
  
  "The Knight Hammer's weapons chief fired another volley of deadly turbolasers, and another, and another."
  ["Darksaber", p. 311]
  
  "Even from her place in the Knight Hammer, high above Yavin 4, she could already see the forests starting to burn."
  ["Darksaber", p. 311]
  
  "Callista looked up and saw another blast come down. With a single strike, the Super Star Destroyer obliterated an acre of ages-old growth. One lucky shot could level the Great Temple."
  ["Darksaber", p. 350]
  
  "Then an indiscriminate river of fire seared through the atmosphere, ripping the air apart in a screaming ionization path. A massive turbolaser bolt from orbit struck one of the TIE fighters and disintegrated it in a puff of released energy. The shockwave fuffeted the Falcon, making Han and Chewbacca scramble to regain control of the ship."
  ["Darksaber", p. 356]
  
  "Another turbolaser bolt came down in the distance, igniting a portion of the jungle kilometers away."
  ["Darksaber", p. 356]

  The quotes are all from the Obsidian pages hosted at ST-v-SW.net.
  
  First, let's start by saying that you don't even need kilotons of energy dumped into a forest to end with the devatating effect of fires that could be seen from space.
  
  Secondly, bolts obliterating on acre of trees, Calista beeing able to witness the action rather easily, all show that the weapons are in the kiloton range.
  
  
  Poe thinks that the low level of firepower is actually easily explained by the context:
  

  There is no 200 gigaton hit on the surface of the planet, or anything even close.

  Of course not. Daala wouldn't want to kill her own troops. That's why she ordered the full power turbolaser battery blasts against the STRUCTURES in the jungle, NOT Y4's surface. Obviously, she wasn't about to fire full power blasts into the jungle itself. The full power blasts from the turbolaser batteries were easily absorbed by the Great Temple:
  
  Darksaber (Hardcover)
  
  pg.307-308: Forest fires raged nearby; even the great Massassi temple appeared changed, blackened from air strikes, but it seemed structurally intact.
  
  Which is backed up by the canon STAR WARS novelization:
  
  pg.146: Theoretically, no weapon could penetrate the exceptionally dense stone of the ancient temple, but Luke had seen the shattered remains of Alderaan and knew that for those in the incredible battle station the entire moon would present simply another abstract problem in mass-energy conversion.
  
  Despite Callista's ill-informed opinion:
  
  Darksaber (Hardcover)
  
  pg.325: One lucky shot could level the Great Temple.
  
  And since the jungle surrounded the Great Temple, its no wonder it was set ablaze:
  
  Darksaber (Hardcover)
  
  pg.286: Tall fires in the jungles surrounding the temple complex crackled and rose into the sky.
  
  Anyway, as I've shown, again, you're incorrect.

  I find it funny that Poe would argue that the temple absorbing bolts proves that they were weak, and thus emphasize the idea that it was a pure tactical strike here, while the same quote has Luke thinking that "no weapon could penetrate the exceptionally dense stone of the ancient temple", and immediately considering that the only system which could achieve that would be the Death Star.
  
  At that point, it actually means that: that funky piece of a temple would withstand any traditional weapon Luke is aware of.
  This, in all honestly, would actually reveal that even the most powerful traditional weapons would fail at destroying the temple.
  With turbolasers firing at full strenght and failing to do more than scorching the surface of the temple, there is not surprise to see why Luke reaches such a conclusion.
  
  Besides, you remember how Poe (awkwardly) used an extract from Isard's Revenge to support his argument?
  Well, we've seen that it was a pointless move from his part, but let's read it again, shall we?
  
  "Moonshadow's gunners concentrated their fire along Direption's port edge, seeking to destroy the other ship's weaponry. Heavy turbolasers, heavy turbolaser cannons, and ion beams all played out, splashing red and blue energy across Direption's shields."
  Page 109.
  
  Now read another extract, from the same book:
  
  "Moonshadow was coming up and turning to port, its port-side batteries firing against Direption's aft shields. Red and blue laser and ion cannon fire pumped terajoules of energy into the shields, but somehow they stayed up."
  
  SW-v-ST.net indicates that this extract was found on page 111, but considering that the editions may have been different, like possibly one being a hardcover or else, the extract could in fact come from the same page, or just be a few pages distant. Even more, the second extract may even happen earlier than the first one.
  
  Anyway, first, notice the use of the term "batteries", for broadside salvos.
  Nothing surprising, considering the position of Heavy Turbolasers on ISDs Mk II.
  Sure, that shoots Poe's argument a tad more.
  
  But above all, notice the mention of "terajoules of energy".
  
  If you needed another (again) demonstration of his cherry picking, that one would be quite good.
  Most interesting is that it actually pretty much fits with the descriptions given in Darksaber, firepower wise.
  
  For the record, terajoules of energy is the equivalent of kilotons of energy.
  
  Poe's friends would be quick to argue that "terajoules" doesn't preclude the existence of petajoules of energy, as thousands of terajoules, if not more.
  
  But that is stupid. We're talking about spaceships. It's all about an advanced civilization. It's science fiction mixed to fantasy. The people in Star Wars would have no reason to think in terms of kilotons only, even for figures in the gigatons (at least 6 orders of magnitude higher than kilotons).
  
  Same for terajoules here. Do you know many people who actually talk about terajoules in their everyday life, and only terajoules?
  
  Not me. From the moment you're actually going to use scientific prefixes such as "tera" associated to energy figures, there's simply ZERO reason not to use "peta" or "exa" prefixes when they would be required.
  
  It's nonsensical to argue that terajoules means in fact petajoules or exajoules, or more.
  
  And of course, there's zero reason to believe that these ships would be holding back.
  
  Earlier on in the same book, on page 7, we can find the following extract:
  
  "Two New Republic Assault Frigates, the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star, cruised in toward the Golan station. Though each ship was less than a third as long as the station, they bristled with fifty laser cannons and poured terajoules of coherent light into the Golan."
  
  Leaving the coherent light bit aside - one part being in error does not make the whole wrong - we again see that capital ships, when attacking a heavy defense platform, fire terajoules of energy at their target.
  
  Of course, the rate of fire expected in such cases will be pretty high, considering what we see in movies and how fast turbolasers fire.
  But as we see, we're very, very far from the necessary base exajoules necessary for the gigaton figures Poe is fond of.
• Conclusion
  
  Darksaber, along Isard's Revenge actually, represent two cases, in the EU, which are what we could call low end firepower figures - only in regards of their gigatons/teratons claims.
  But above all, it is interesting to see that basically, it pretty much fits quite well with the firepower displayed in the films.
  
  Even in the Revenge of the Sith novelisation, as a sign of examplary and impressive demonstration, a turbolaser bolt is said to be able to vapourize a small town (only).
  Even when being literaly, this doesn't make the figure reach more than a couple of megatons, top.
  This came within a context full of descriptions about the weapons used in the current concentrated naval engagement occuring in orbit of Coruscant.
  And of course, if you don't take the comment literally, it means much less firepower.
  
  But the most important point here, is to remember that Darksaber is just as canon as the ICS, and presents reliable (low end) firepower figures, which anyone is allowed to use as references.
  
  This also applies to the extracts from Isard's Revenge.

[watchdog]

I for one have never bought into the BDZ ideas from the Poes and Wongs out there, I've never seen any concrete evidence supporting their opinions. in fact if you check out my thread at http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=663 I find plenty that suggests otherwise.
From what I can tell the entire argument for the BDZ comes from very selective interpretations of a couple of sourcebook quotes, one stating that an ISD can slag a civilised world, and the other describing a BDZ. Wong and others simply assumed that the two comments were refering to the same thing (as memory serves Mr.Wong concocted the one hour time frame because he assumed everyone on any given planet had access to space vehicles and the Empire would want to keep the population from escaping).
The pictures that I posted in the other thread show a different reality, but in all fairness it would be easy to suggest that none of these scenes depict full powered blasts. I would consider such an argument to be grasping at straws myself. The best take on the BDZ was in an old thread at spacebattes, sadly it dates back to before the archive was set up, it now apparently only exists in the prints I used to make of my favorite threads.

The tital is "Wayne Poes response to BDZ" is apparently his response to a thread that IXJac had posted back at ASVS I believe, below is IXJac's response at SB.com.

"The claim is that a BDZ must be undertaken in 1 hour so as to deny people the chance to get off planet. The reason for this claim is because people believe that the operation would not be as effective if people could escape."
It wouldn't be as effective if the target of the Empire's wrath could escape. If a planetary government were in clear defiance of the Empire, a BDZ of their (as stated) "assets of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids" would INDEED mean a planetary scale bombardment. Unless of course one wants to employ faulty logic for the sake of simplifying and misrepresenting the argument by saying all factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, sentient beings and droids are located in one portion of one hemisphere.

Of course he misses the point of the operation. At its heart a BDZ is simply about resource denial, as clearly stated in the Imperial Sourcebook. So long as the planet is lifeless and structurless at the end, it succeeds. All else is tertiary.
As well, the fact that it was a planetary scale bombardment was never in doubt. Advanced civilizations
span most of any planet. Point is they don't COVER most of it. Infact they cover only between . 1 to
10% of the surface depending on what criteria you use.
He is being overly simplistic in his analysis here, and purposely misinterpreting the argument.

"This is faulty logic; who said the operation had to be that effective? NATO bombed the piss out of Serbia yet still never hit more than a fraction of the military hardware they hoped to target. If we judged the power of NATO based on what they would have needed to conduct a flawless and totally successful operation in Serbia we would end up with numbers staggeringly in excess of their actual strength and capability. Likewise, if we judged the power of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima by the criteria that the US intent to destroy the city must have meant that no one survived we would end up with a bomb rated at over 2MT, not 17kt as was actually used."
This is not only faulty logic in itself, this is a blatant strawman. 20th century Earth army forces, who aren't even the state of the art in the world theatre, cannot be compared to a space-faring culture who can zip across the galaxy at a whim,

The words in the passage are written by people from Earth, from our culture. Therefore, the same conventions of interpretation apply. The language CAN be compared. It's OUR languuage with OUR idioms after all.
... unless he thinks the WEG writers are actually from the SW galaxy.

"Just because an operation is undertaken does NOT mean it is expected to achieve the best possible results and succeed flawlessly."
Faulty logic once again. A BDZ op is a proven military engagement, which has been done so many times and the desired effect achieved so many times that it has its own designation—Base Delta Zero—on the books.

Here he demonstrates his ignorance of military realities. NO military strategist EVER expects 100% success. EVER. Also, "proven" military operations, like strategic bombing have been shown in the eye of history to have been rather less effective than was first tought.
Logic has nothing to do with this; we're talking military realities here, not Pascal.
As for the books, neither he, nor his compatriots produced one clear example of a planet having its surface completely melted by a BDZ. Total destruction of civilization, yes, but that's a long way away from melting the crust in one hour, and can be done with far less energy.

"Basically, you are defining the criteria for success according to theoretical pipe dreams. Unless it is clearly stated in an official source that a BDZ must be undertaken in one hour and that no one must escape this is not a "reasonable" assumption."
Red herring. A BDZ op, as shown above, is not a "theoretical pipe dream", but a proven military operation.

Again he not so neatly dodges the issue. We know BDZs can be performed, that was never in doubt. The question however is whether the BDZ does what he THINKS it does, that is melt the entire crust.

THAT is the theoretical pipe dream.

The one hour time limit is but a small assumption in a mountain of evidence for Star Destroyer weapons power.

The one hour time limit is TOTALLY arbitrary, based on MWs assumptions about evacuation times. In fact, info from the NJO books shows that it would take weeks for the ENTIRE NR to evacuate even a FRACTION of a planets population.
Small or not, it is completely without support from ANY of the literature.

A logical assumption unless one wants to propose a Star Destroyer would sit in orbit for 23 hours continually bombarding the target planet without stopping. Not only would this scenario beg the question of how long a ISD could expend that much power,

What? And that's any more a question than how it could expend so much power in so short a time? That's a REALLY silly argument, since its actually HARDER to expend a lot of energy in an hour than a little measured out over days.

but it would also assume that absolutely zero retaliation against the ship would be undertaken in ALL that time. By planetary forces, OR sister planets or colonies.

That's why a fleet of 416 ships is sent to do the job.
A single A6 can destroy a bridge, but to ensure success in a hostile environment the navy sends multiiple bombers as well as support craft, escorts, defense supression, ets. . .
Anyway, this is another silly argument. Its quite viable to assume that the attackers take care of all local defenses before beginning the BDZ proper, so they can take their time without interferance. Given the Empire's VAST superiority in resources over the Alliance, the possibility of effective resistance or counterattack is slight if it sets its mind on destroying any particular world.
And again, who says the operation has to be undertaken in a manner so as to make the ships doing it immune to counter attack? That's war. Sometimes the enemy fights back. Things don't go to plan. Shit happens.
His argument only shows the height of his military ignorance.

The rest I'll deal with later.
Its apparent he walked into this with all his preconceptions still active.

He COMPLETELY missed the point that the fundamental question was whether a BDZ slagged the entire surface of a planet insted of just inducing widespread destruction of its civilization, slagging only the areas of civilization.
Really, he doesn't say anything of note, nor does he adress any of the other points I raised. Don't know why he bothered posting that at all really.
All he posts is his (misinformed) opinions. Not one SHRED of the proof I asked for - no quotes, no pasages, no clear definitions. Worthless.
Basically, its a bunch of silliness, that makes me more confident in my views.
If he had ACTUAL proof I was wrong he'd have posted it, instead of a few half baked arguments about clear military impossibilities. He needs to learn that his assumptions on how the operation SHOULD be conducted mean dick all, especially when they're patently ridiculous from every military standpoint.
Neither his opinions nor MWs are gospel, much less canon or official. Poorly concieved fan opinions are NOT a substitute for canon or official sources.
The other bits. . .

"From this quote we can determine that while a single ISD may well be able to destroy the trappings of civilization on a world, the truly sucessful execution of a BDZ operation requires a full fleet."
No, from this quote we can determine that an Imperial bombard fleet contains an average of 416 ships.

The fleet sent to do a BDZ consists of 416 ships. That means all his arguments about a single ISD stopping all refugees, preventing couterattack and so on are flawed, since it is NOT a single ISD doing the operation.
Regardless of whether the physical destruction can be done by a single ship or not, ensuring success requires a far larger fleet.
More misinterpretation. . . I don't know why he bothered.

This does NOT invalidate the Imperial Sourcebook quote on page 61 or 82,

The sourcebooks merely state that an ISD can "reduce a civilized world to slag." They do NOT say it can singlehandedly do a whole BDZ itslef, taking out all the defenses, repelling all counterattacks and stopping all refugees. Just that it can "slag a civilized world." No timeframe given. This is important since ANY ship with a certain basic level of firepower can "slag" a world if given enough time.
Wayne tries to derive time from the BDZ operation (which has STILL to be proven to take only one hour) but since it is clearly stated that a BDZ is done by and entire fleet. . .
P109: Bombard fleets contain an average of 416 ships... System bombards are used when the Empire would rather destroy a world rather than let it fall into Rebel hands
. . . those conclusions are invalid.

So no, of COURSE it doesn't invalidate the sorcebooks, since the books do NOT say what he seems to think they say.
Thus, a Star Destroyer destroying a world has no intrinsic time constraints placed on it by any demands of the BDZ operation since the operation is not meant to be done by only one ship.
After all, a single battery of artillery can flatten a grid square if given time (and no active opposition), but to make it a truly effective operation usually a Divisional Artillery Group is used.
Only if a quote clearly indicating that BDZ operations are done by a single ISD is found will his aguments have merit.
Essentially, Wayne needs to realize that a quote about an ISD "slagging a civilized" world CANNOT be taken as analagous to it performing a BDZ singlehandedly.
Simply put, a single ISD has absolutely no chance against any major world, and most minor ones.
-It cannot breach even the most rudimentary planetary shield
-It cannot beat even a handful of planet based defenses
-It cannot effectively prevent reinforcement or survive a major counterattack (as would have to be
expected)
The passage is a lot of propaganda. Pretty clear given its tone.
The more down to earth Fleet Organization section goes more into some depth in the size of any fleet seeking to take out a defended world and BDZ it, and frankly, makes a LOT more sense given what we saw in tESB.
Once the shield is down, no doubt an ISD COULD slag the entire surface of the planet IF GIVEN ENOUGH TIME. We however do NOT know how long that would take, as no time limit is given in the ISD quote in the Sourcebook, (there's also the issue of whther it actually targets the ENTIRE crust or just the civilized areas but we'll leave that for now).
In the context of a BDZ it quite likely would be over very shortly, but there would be FOUR HUNDRED AND SIXTEEN SHIPS firing at the planet. If each had only a HUNDREDTH the firepower MW estimates the operation would still be over in under an hour.
Simply put, deriving firepower from poorly specified operations is not an option if you want accuracy. If I told you that a RAF bomber raid could burn a city, you STILL would not have enough information to accurately reconstruct the numbers and capabilities of the force that torched Dresden. Any numbers you TRIED to derive would be horribly in error - you simply don't know enopugh of the specifics. . . In the same way we don't know enough of the specifics about the ISDs civilization slagging operation to make any serious calcs.
Simply put, MW is working at the issue completely backwards.

I always keep in mind what someone once pointed out, that an entire fleet of ISD's and one SSD was incapable of penetrating the theatre shield on Hoth, the BDZ as they describe it could only be used on planets like Tatooine.

[Praeothmin]

And if a lone ISD really could "slag an entire world" in less then 1 hour, as they claim, then why not build 1 million ISD's, instead of 1 single Death Star.

A quote from Tarkin:
"Fear will keep the systems in line... Fear of this Battle Station!"

If an ISD was so powerful, would they really need a Death Star?
I think the worlds would already be fearful enough of the Empire.
Don't you?

[watchdog]

Some people claim they do have over a million ships, they dony think about logical reasons like that.

[Praeothmin]

Yes, but the claim isn't for a million ISDs, it's for 25000 ISDs and a million ships total, including smaller frigates and stuff...

[Socar]

Well, one common justification I've heard for the existence of the Death Star is the issue of planetary and theater shields.

[Mike DiCenso]

The planetary/theater shields actually is a legitimate counter argument, or rather was until it was made clear in the RoTS novelization just what kind of planetary defenses there were available (mainly captial and anti-ship surface based weapons).

However, even if we were to overlook the second-tier canon of the novelizations in favor of the EU, the shield argument fails to take into account fully what happend in TESB, where the Imperial fleet fails to try to bombard the planet on the opposite side of the Rebel base, or relatively nearby to create shockwaves and disruptions in Hoth's crust which would cripple the Rebels' escape, and possibly knockout the shield generator in the process. All without having to send down a single stormtrooper. Even the counterarguement that Vader wanted to try and ensure that Luke would be spared fails since Vader could also expect that Luke would fight alongside his comrades, and possibly get killed (he almost does getting shot down and nearly stepped on by an AT-AT).
-Mike

[Socar]

Even the counterarguement that Vader wanted to try and ensure that Luke would be spared fails since Vader could also expect that Luke would fight alongside his comrades, and possibly get killed (he almost does getting shot down and nearly stepped on by an AT-AT).

Not to mention the fact that when Veers tells Vader that they detected the energy field that was strong enough to deflect any bombardment, Vader says that the Rebel's are obviously aware of their presence, and that Ozzel ordered the fleet out of hyperspace too close, and promptly kills Ozzel for it, which sorta implies that Vader DID want to bombard the planet, regardless of Luke's presence.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Even the counterarguement that Vader wanted to try and ensure that Luke would be spared fails since Vader could also expect that Luke would fight alongside his comrades, and possibly get killed (he almost does getting shot down and nearly stepped on by an AT-AT).

Not to mention the fact that when Veers tells Vader that they detected the energy field that was strong enough to deflect any bombardment, Vader says that the Rebel's are obviously aware of their presence, and that Ozzel ordered the fleet out of hyperspace too close, and promptly kills Ozzel for it, which sorta implies that Vader DID want to bombard the planet, regardless of Luke's presence.

To actually destroy the generator before the shield's put up.
I don't think their goal was to rock the whole place. They probably wanted to capture lots of stuff as well. Well it's a mixed bag, but the point is that you wouldn't bother deploying so many assets just to level a base.

[Socar]

To actually destroy the generator before the shield's put up.

So wait. Vader wanted the fleet to have been brought out of hyperspace far enough away from the system that the Rebel's wouldn't even be able to detect the fleet, but somehow they'd still be able to target the shield generator? Were they planning on being able to move in quick enough and take it out?

Also, in the novelization, Vader says "A clean bombardment is impossible through their energy field." I wonder what he meant exactly by a "clean bombardment".

[Mr. Oragahn]

To actually destroy the generator before the shield's put up.

So wait. Vader wanted the fleet to have been brought out of hyperspace far enough away from the system that the Rebel's wouldn't even be able to detect the fleet, but somehow they'd still be able to target the shield generator? Were they planning on being able to move in quick enough and take it out?

Also, in the novelization, Vader says "A clean bombardment is impossible through their energy field." I wonder what he meant exactly by a "clean bombardment".

Frankly, I never understood what the problem was with Ozzel's plan. You can't convince me that an approach on sublight drives would have been more discret than a straight jump out of hyperspace above the planet, and firing the second there after.

The interesting point is that despite knowing where the generator was, knowing where the planet was, and apparently, according to the EU, knowing that it takes some time to rise a theater shield, the destroyers couldn't immediately fire at the base.

Seriously, I don't know what Vader's plan was. Stay behind the asteroid belt, and send fighters and bombers? You tell me this plan would have worked better, while these smaller crafts could actually be downed by the rebel defenses?

Or is it that the rebels' long range sensors are so crappy, in fact, that a Destroyer's weapons' range surpasses the range of these sensors (and of course, we face the idea that the sensors of a whole base, powered by whatever generator they had, with enough juice to repel an entire bombardment and even take down ISDs in one shots with their ion cannon, couldn't range beyond the sensors of spaceships).

The trouble with Ozzel is that he didn't engage the target as soon as they were out of hyperspace.

Vader probably wanted to take his time, probe the place, while masked by the asteroids.
Ozzel put his plans in jeopardy, forcing an immediate reaction, but failed to acquire targets on the surface quick enough before the shield could be raised.

Besides, I can't know if the shield was up because the imperial ships were spotted, or because of the probes the Empire sent.
The rebels didn't need much time to understand that it was a proof of imperial activity.
From the get go, they'd have raised the shield.

But I reiterate. The level of destruction, or rather, non destruction, on Echo Base, tends to show that the plan was not to craterize the mountain.
Therefore, even gigatons or teratons of firepower would have not been used, even indirectly, through quakes, to destroy the rebel base.

We know the mountain was subject to hits, some say they were quite powerful (to rock the whole place to that point, which correspond to high magnitudes on Richter's scale, and thus yields in the x kilotons - but what about concussion missiles?), but nothing that literally leveled the entire compound. Especially since Vader himself went down there.

[Socar]

Well, I suppose one possible explanation is that the same probe droid that originally reported about the shield generator, also reported where it was on the planet as well, and that they were planning on using that information to take it out from a far enough distance before the Rebel's were alerted and got the shield up. Veers told Vader that surprise was wiser, but perhaps he just underestimated how fast the Rebel's would be able to detect them and get the shield up.

[watchdog]

I guess I'll add my two cents to this.
The warsies also use this part of ESB as proof of lightspeed sensors as everyone was able to scan each other from outside the system, the facts; the establishing shot of the Imperial fleet shows them slowly pulling up to Hoth and then that guy reports to Vader about the scans, they did not come out of hyperspace too close to the system, they came out of hyperspace virtually in orbit of the planet (I sometimes think Adm. Ozzel was a rebel double agent).
The essential guide for wepons and tech claimed that the sensors the alliance was using were optical only, basically powerful telescopes. They used these passive sensors so as not to give away their position with an active system pinging everything that passed by. The book if I remember correctly gave the range of the optical telescopes as about ten light minutes (I would have to hunt down a copy and check that so do not take my word for the range).
It's obvious that Vader and Ozzel both had the same ideas about a surprise attack, the most hoped for tactic in warfare. Vader may have guessed that the rebels were using a passive system which is why he wanted to come out further away whereas Ozzel just wanted to fly in and attack immedeatly, but the rebels had already destroyed the probe droid and were expecting the Empire, I always got the impression that the shield was up before the Imperials exited hyperspace.
Ozzel was not entirely wrong just as Vader was not entirely right in his plans although coming out further away could have kept them from being detected early and maybe allowed them to capture fleeing vessles or even get under the shield as it was dropped for escaping ships. Unfortunatly we dont know what Vader really had in mind and probably never will (unless someone wants to write to George Lucas and ask him).
This of course brings us to the weapons and the theatre shield. I always thought the shield covered the area of the base but did not actually reach the ground, others have suggested the shield was like the Gungan shield in TPM and slow moving objects could waltz right through. But if the weapons were as powerful as some claim, then well placed shots around the perimiter of the shield could have made defending nearly impossible if not a down right hell on Hoth, if the shield was as I thought it was they could have fired under the shield from an angled distance as well. Vaders quest to capture Skywalker alive not withstanding, these factors do not lend themselves very well to the warsie interpretation of things at all.

[Mike DiCenso]

Here's the dialog from the movie:


CONTROLLER: General, there's a fleet of Star Destroyers coming out of
hyperspace in sector four.

RIEEKAN: Reroute all power to the energy shield. We've got to hold
them till all transports are away. Prepare for ground assault.

This seems to suggest that either very minimal power was being pumped into the shield, or that it was not on at all, if so much power had to be suddenly dumped into it.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

To actually destroy the generator before the shield's put up.

So wait. Vader wanted the fleet to have been brought out of hyperspace far enough away from the system that the Rebel's wouldn't even be able to detect the fleet, but somehow they'd still be able to target the shield generator? Were they planning on being able to move in quick enough and take it out?

Also, in the novelization, Vader says "A clean bombardment is impossible through their energy field." I wonder what he meant exactly by a "clean bombardment".

As we've seen with both Star Trek and Star Wars, shields can collapse, with some energy "bleedthrough" occuring as the shields are overwhelmed and take damage. A bombardment might still be possible at some point, but as the shield wears down over time, the leakthrough of TL and missle energies may cause unintented damage, if the Imperials' goal is one of truely taking prisoners for interogation. Alternatively, the TLs can over-power the shields of the base, but the shield may still cause some sort of distortion of the TL beams with unpredictable results.
-Mike