Star Wars' Starships vs. Stars & EM Radiations

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Mr. Oragahn
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Star Wars' Starships vs. Stars & EM Radiations

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:13 pm

Let's start out by frankly admiting this is all about Wayne Poe's webpage.

There, he claims:
Three Star Destroyers were parked in close proximity to seven blue giant stars in Dark Apprentice for an extended period of time.
As briefly adressed on these forums, the existence of a stable group of seven blue giants is not only an oddity, but we know that something has to compensate for the gravitational forces each star creates.

For them not to smash into each other, they'd either need to be subject to high torque, important centrifugal forces, or be well distant to each other.
But before continuing into Poe's page, let's look at other discussions relative to this subject:







Looking for more evidence, I've been through a couple of archived threads, where members posted snipsets of EU books, and made other references.
Exemple:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=12573
From Edge of Victory 2:Rebirth, p. 60;

Leia: "What did they hit us with?" she asked.

Jacen: "Something we haven't seen yet," Jacen said. "It may just be a side-effect of their interdiction device."

Han: "Or a powerful electromagnetic pulse. It shut our systems down, but didn't do a lot of damage to them."

Leia: "It shut us down, too," Leia pointed out.

Han: "Yeah. It at that," Han allowed.

Indication that SW systems can be disabled with EM fields?

Comments?
This was not informative in the slightest, since it was impossible to gauge the power of that pulse.
rvalencia wrote:------------------------------------------------------------
Star Wars: The New Jedi Order - "Vector Prime"
(Page 194)
"Nothing coing from that planet but static," the man confirmed.
"Belkadan?" Leia asked.
"Small planet with a scientific outposy," Lando replied. " Justa dozen or so scientists on the planet.
"And what does this mean?" she asked, taking the printout.
"Probably means their transmitter is out," Lando replied. "Or maybe there's a solar flare wreaking communications.

------------------------------------------------------------
(Page 237)

They didn't, couldn't, say a word as the Jade Sabre approached the now-yellow and green planet known as Belkadan.
...
"You've read the reports on Belkadan-full of huge trees and small seas, and with clear air and blue skies.
(Page 238)
She waved her hand at the viewport and the curving line of Belkadan's horizon, and the roiling, noxious-looking cloads.
...
Mara glanced down at her console's smaller viewscreen, scrolling the information of the composition of the clouds. "Carbo dioxide and methane, mostly,"

Page 240
As soon as the Jade Sabre broke the rim of Belkadan's atmo-sphere, Luke understood just how much his last words had been an understatement. Violent winds buffeted the shuttle, and some unforeseen electromagnetic imbalance sent the sensors and other instruments screaming out errer messages and alarm bells. Systems failed and then came back on-;ine; at one point, there was a sudden drop to the right, and both Luke and Mara thought their harness belts would cut right through them.
...
Then they saw the devastation, the reddish brown forest stream-ing lines of noxious vapors skyward.
...
Luke moved in close and read carefully. "Sulfur," he said, and looked up. "A volcano?"
------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------
Reference No: SW-SG-0001 Source: Star Wars – The Crystal Star NEXT

Status: Official, Authorise

Extract:

"The Millennium Falcon swept out of hyperspace, driving through streamers of light into normal space. The alarms shrieked and the radiation shields snapped into existence around the Falcon." Han swore. He had expected a heavy radiation flux in this region - he had outfitted the Falcon to withstand it - page 31

"IF I may be so bold ..." See-Threepio said "Despite the extra shielding I can feel X-rays penetrating my outer shell, all the way to my synapses." page 32

"As if to punctuate See-Threepio's comment, a bright flash of light with no apparent source streaked across Han's vision; he recognized it as a cosmic ray travelling across his retina." page 32

"An X-ray storm will surely have adverse effects on the systems of the Mil - of your ship," See-Threepio said. page 41

Comments: SW Shielding system must be heavily refitted with radiation shield to withstand EM. Specifically in the EM frequency of Cosmic Ray band to X-Ray band. But it would not guarantee protection. Also there is an indication of lighter than lead is used in the construction of the hull.
------------------------------------------------------------
His Divine Shadow wrote:"Comments: SW Shielding system must be heavily refitted with radiation shield to withstand EM. Specifically in the EM frequency of Cosmic Ray band to X-Ray band. But it would not guarantee protection. Also there is an indication of lighter than lead is used in the construction of the hull."

True in the MF's case, which is a transport/large gunship/racer modified for disgusting speeds etc...

Modification of hull to get lighter metals(though similar tensile strenght) to sacrifice some protection for speed, which is what the MF was designed for.
Lets not just compare this to ISD's and other large ships, they are quite each others opposites with different goals in mind when they were designed.
Later on, rvalencia replies:
Originally posted by His Divine Shadow {PHX}
"Comments: SW Shielding system must be heavily refitted with radiation shield to withstand EM. Specifically in the EM frequency of Cosmic Ray band to X-Ray band. But it would not guarantee protection. Also there is an indication of lighter than lead is used in the construction of the hull."

True in the MF's case, which is a transport/large gunship/racer modified for disgusting speeds etc...
MF’s shields was modified to a military level.

I'm not just taking about MF alone, I'm also talking about Mara's new ship...ie. "Jade Sabre",

The Jade Sabre can hold at least 1 X-Wing inside it's cargo/shuttle bay.

About Mara's Jade Sabre.
------------------------------------------------------------
Page: 242
Subject: Mara's Jade Sabre

he (Yomin Carr) had to admit that this ship, with its sleek fish-head design and swept-back tail fin and its flared side pods prorecting the twin ion drives, was among the most beautiful he had seen.
------------------------------------------------------------
Page: 273
Subject: Mara's Jade Sabre

R2-D2 punched the appropriate code into the X-wing, which were relayed to the Jade Sabre, and the tail fin of the shuttle opened like a scissors' blade. A moment later, the X-wing slid out easily into empty space, floating behind the jade Sabre, and as soon as there was enough room between them, Luke swooped down about the shuttle and throttled past her, giving a salute to Mara.
------------------------------------------------------------
Mara's Jade Sabre is at least larger than MF in terms of size.

Probably around ~75m in length.

EM levels are planetary level NOT Solar level, as in the case Star Wars: The New Jedi Order - "Vector Prime"...
Originally posted by His Divine Shadow {PHX}

Modification of hull to get lighter metals(though similar tensile strenght) to sacrifice some protection for speed, which is what the MF was designed for.
There was no modification on the hull that would classify "over haul" or "rebuild"... except for a black coat of paint.
Originally posted by His Divine Shadow {PHX}

Lets not just compare this to ISD's and other large ships, they are quite each others opposites with different goals in mind when they were designed.
Refer X-Wings novels of the proton nuke weakness....

Detonated Nukes contains both high-speed neutron particles and high-end EM frequencies Photon Particles.
Member Barnabas Collins considered that rvalencia's quotes were too selective, so he provided more detailed versions:
Originally posted by rvalencia


------------------------------------------------------------
Reference No: SW-SG-0001 Source: Star Wars – The Crystal Star NEXT

Status: Official, Authorise

Extract:

"The Millennium Falcon swept out of hyperspace, driving through streamers of light into normal space. The alarms shrieked and the radiation shields snapped into existence around the Falcon." Han swore. He had expected a heavy radiation flux in this region - he had outfitted the Falcon to withstand it - page 31
The Crystal Star, pg. 31:

The Millennium Falcon swept out of hyperspace, driving through streamers of light into normal space. The alarms shrieked and the radiation shields snapped into existence around the Falcon. Han swore. He had expected a heavy radiation flux in this region - he had outfitted the Falcon to withstand it - but nothing as powerful as the X-ray storms raging around them.

When he had checked the ship's systems to make sure none were damaged, Han took a moment to look outside.

pg.32:

A dense, brilliant starfield spread all around his ship. Two star clusters collided: Bands of red giant stars, like veins of glowing blood, meandered through the regions of white dwarf stars. The stars clustered so closely that they formed one huge chaotic system, spinning around each other, pulling each other into different dances, one snatching star-stuff from the surface of another.
"IF I may be so bold ..." See-Threepio said "Despite the extra shielding I can feel X-rays penetrating my outer shell, all the way to my synapses." page 32
"IF I may be so bold ..." See-Threepio said. "Despite the extra shielding I can feel X-rays penetrating my outer shell, all the way to my synapses. I can hardly imagine what they might do to your more delicate biological structure. Crseih Research Station was constructed to withstand this assault. Might I suggest that we get beneath the spaceport's shielding as soon as possible?"
"An X-ray storm will surely have adverse effects on the systems of the Mil - of your ship," See-Threepio said. page 41
page 41

When the white dwarf neared the black hole, and the black hole began tearing heated gas from its surface, the X rays would intensify into a true storm, an X ray hurricane.

"An X-ray storm will surely have adverse effects on the systems of the Mil - of your ship," See-Threepio said, "if it is left unprotected."
Comments: SW Shielding system must be heavily refitted with radiation shield to withstand EM. Specifically in the EM frequency of Cosmic Ray band to X-Ray band. But it would not guarantee protection. Also there is an indication of lighter than lead is used in the construction of the hull.
------------------------------------------------------------
When read in context, the X rays the Falcon was flying through were higher than normal.


Champions of the Force

pg.90-91: The Millennium Falcon emerged from hyperspace near the coordinates of the destroyed Cardian star system. Han Solo polarized the segmented viewport to look out at the rubble that had recently been a group of planets and a burning sun; now he saw only a slash of still-glowing gases, a sea of radiation from the supernova. The sheer destruction was on a scale greater even than when he had emerged from hyperspace to find Alderaan reduced to broken debris-

Cardia's exploded star had spewed stellar maretial in a thick band around the ecliptic, vast curtains of roiling gases that glowed and crackled with intense energy across the spectrum. A shock wave plowed through space, where it would dissipate over thousands of years.

Under his high-resolution scanners Han spotted a few twisted cinders, burned-out lumps of worlds that had been the outer planets in the system. Now they shone like embers in a dying fire.

The Falcon's sensor banks barely coped with the overloading energies that pulsed through the wreckage of the Cardian system. X rays and gamma rays hammered against his shields.

Rebel Dawn, pg. 126:

Rimrunner was still moving, but no longer in a straight path. Instead Salla's ship was within a thousand kilometers of a neutreon star, looping up in a high orbit.

pg.130:

He kept his eyes rivited on his sensors. Rimrunner was only about fifty kilometers away, now, growing on his screens.

pg.131:

The blip that was the Falcon was closing rapidly. Thirty klicks...

He was closing on twenty klicks now.
A neutron star has a strong g field, but it can be easily compensated with a good intial velocity. Besides there's a multitude of neutron star types, and many are harmless at the distance mentionned.
Again, there's nothing terrific about that.

Barnabas Collins replied:

Distance was not specified during SW "Crystal Star"..
The Crystal Star, pg. 35

Solar prominences flared from the white dwarf's surface. The Falcon passed it, heading toward the more perilous region of the black hole.
For all we know the EM levels from X amount distance from black hole would be not better than the one experience from SW "Vector Prime".
There was a black hole in Vector Prime?

In the Jedi Academy trilogy, the Falcon had no trouble navigating around that cluster of black holes known as the Maw.

And in the Crispin Solo novels, the Falcon had no trouble executing the Kessel Run around that cluster of black holes known as the Maw.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Barnabas Collins

pg.32:

A dense, brilliant starfield spread all around his ship. Two star clusters collided: Bands of red giant stars, like veins of glowing blood, meandered through the regions of white dwarf stars. The stars clustered so closely that they formed one huge chaotic system, spinning around each other, pulling each other into different dances, one snatching star-stuff from the surface of another.
White dwarfs can come in different flavours. Some of them with luminosities inferior 4,000 K, other, hotter, with surface temperatures 150,000 K.
The luminosity can range "from over 100 times the Sun's to under 1/10,000th that of the Sun's."
And in the case of hot white dwarfs, those "with surface temperatures in excess of 30,000K, have been observed to be sources of soft (i.e., lower-energy) X-rays."

Again, no need to wank out this.

Besides, were the MF's shields modified in that book?
Other references have shown that they needed to be, in advance of penetrating zones rich with star activity.

The thread dies after a second page, while it seemed more could be said.



So I bumped into another thread. Down to page 5.
Light Soldier wrote:
Originally posted by Styxx


Tsk, tsk. Perhaps you should try to learn what Occam's Razor is before trying to reply quoting it. You're still adding unnecessary variables to the equation. Besides, you didn't prove that the sun was emitting any strange form of radiation, you just proved that it was emitting radiation enough to damage the ISD. Post a quote from the book where it's stated that the radiation goes through the shielding, or a quote where it's stated that the star has anything of exotic besides being stronger than the usual, or else accept that you're wrong.

Now quit whining.
Ok what is it so hard to understand here, Thrawn did not say a word of how long the shields would last, he only mentioned that the hull would easilly last several minutes in direct sunlight. What does this mean? Well i think you are smart enough to figure that out.

Ok lets take Darksaber

pg.120-121: Tsoss Beacon transmitted its blind signal into the fiery soup of stars and gases near the heart of the deep core. The automated station had been constructed by droids and suicide crews on a planetoid scoured clean by an endless wash of radioactive storms and solar flares that swept the region. When the worker droids completed the groundwork and installed high-efficiency radiation-shield generators, Daala brought the Firestorm into the ravening system, where hot gas swirled around them and shockwaves from stellar storms scrambled her sensors.

Hmm the ISD had no modifications and had no problems being in the system.
There are several stars. No mention of their luminosity, colour, size whatsover.

The over abundance of gases and the description has a soup tells that it has more to do with nebulas than a proper solid star system. The core being the final nail in the coffin.
At that point, there's going to be gases everywhere.

Solar flares do strike Earth as well.

Now, since they're talking about radioactive storms and solar flares that swept the region, the activity is quite high, but there's no clear way to gauge the energy.

Such descriptions could easily correspond to ranges in the kilotons per second, and still remain extremely impressive when you're going right into them.
Light Soldier wrote:pg.56: The stormtroopers formed a tight and comforting honor guard around Daala as she strode down the fused corridors into the bedrock. Supreme Warlork Harrsk had estabished his stronghold on a rocky planet that orbited close to a red giant star. Its surface crust remained soft and cracked, seeping lava like an oozing wound. In orbit giant solar smelters provided energy and processed raw material to construct Harrsk's personal fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

Close to a red giant, and the ISDs had no problems.
Being close to a red giant doesn't tell much. Their surface temperature range from 3500 K to 5000 K.

The amount of energy to keep the rock surface semi molten (it's also cracked, you don't crack something that is molten) is rather low in fact, and it wouldn't be hard to keep it that way since the surface is bathed in such energy.
This is not impressive, and clearly not supporting evidence for the ICS numbers.
Then we have the Dark Apprentice instance where 3 ISD MKI's were parked near 7 blue giant stars and had no trouble. Then we have the Classic Star Wars 3 graphical novel where the Executor was close to Yavins sun and again had no trouble with the radiation.

Then we have Athega where somehow shields become irrelevant. Since there is no mention of shields being a factor angainst the Stellar radiation it is reasonable to conclude that the Athega sun was not normal in nature.

Now stop the fucking bullshit and accept the facts.
Well, we end up, again, with the same references, which endlessly remain as vague as they can get.

Styxx corrects LS's claims (incomplete quote):
You should be the one accepting the facts: any standard star would be inflicting a ridiculously low amount of damage (for the scale we're working on here) to any ship that wasn't practically sitting on its surface. Check my calcs again, and remove the multipliers to see how much radiation our own sun puts out. Your quotes are useless, simply because all of the stars there are fairly standard ones (even though they might be big - remember, big doesn't mean bright).
Which is just completely logical.

Among LS's next reply:
Well, I am smart enough to figure it out, the problem is - it seems that you aren't. The fact that he didn't mention the shields proves nothing: it may perfectly be that it was irrelevant because the radiation was so strong that it would overwhelm the shields almost instantly. Try again.
Are you seriously trying to claim that the hull on an ISD is stronger than its shields? Because that is exactly what your so-called calculations imply. The fact that Thrawn didnt mention the shields means everything, since shields are a lot stronger than the hull alone, there would be no damn point to tell how long the hull would last if shields could stop the radiation from Athega.

Try again.
From what I remember when I read Zahn's book, it was made clear that the standard shields of starships couldn't handle Athega's radiations well enough.
LS thinks the radiations were special enough so they literally bypassed shields to a great extent.

We know that Lando had huge umbrella ships built specifically to protect and escort ships to the Nkllon planetoid.

Lando built a harvesting mobile station, the Nomad city, on the structure of 40 AT-ATs IIRC, and was moving it in the shadow region of the planetoid, while the side facing the sun was molten.

So basically, we're dealing with supposedly exotic radiations which still manage to heat up rock in the good old way, but where umbrella ships with specific super thick armour plating, and a documented network of huge cooling pipes on the inside, can work without too much problem.

We need to look more about it.
You should be the one accepting the facts: any standard star would be inflicting a ridiculously low amount of damage (for the scale we're working on here) to any ship that wasn't practically sitting on its surface. Check my calcs again, and remove the multipliers to see how much radiation our own sun puts out. Your quotes are useless, simply because all of the stars there are fairly standard ones (even though they might be big - remember, big doesn't mean bright).
Uhm.. excuse me? 3 ISDs were sitting ALMOST at the top of 7 BLUE GIANTS! They had no troubles staying there.The thermal radiation was strong enough to melt the surface of the planet where Harrsk had built his base. Allso see the Tsoss system quote, the radiation angainst the planetoid where the Tsoss beacon was, was so strong that it had washed it clean with radiation storms and solar flares, yet Daala's ISD or even shuttles had no troubles angainst this radiation. And there is allso a minor problem with your calculations, you are trying to compare a star with unknown properties to our own Sun.
Huh, LS is mudding the waters. Harrsk didn't build his base close to a blue giant, but close to a red giant. And not that close in fact.

In the end, the deal remains the same, since we have a description of their effects on the surface, and reveal that the planet is not as close as these people would like to.
Provide some real quotes about that star having any shield-bypassing properties or ditch the bullshit.
The fact that shields are useless angainst the Athega radiation is pretty clear based on Thrawns words and other examples of ISDs being near stars. You are seriously trying to claim that an ISDs shields would be weaker than the ships hull, because that is exactly the assumption to which your calculations are based on.
It is most peculiar to see Light Soldier argue that the shields on an ISD would necessarily be very good against stars, while we have seen, from the references, that even for the Millenium Falcon, apparently fitted with military grade shields, Han had to make modifications to enhance their efficiency against typical star radiations and other ejections.

Styxx, from there, pretty much highlights the problems that exist.
Funny that for a post that's now 6 years old, this issue has rarely been adressed, and even less solved - check out the numbers of solutions you get on google.
Styxx wrote:Okay, I feel like just realizing I've been trying to explain things to a wall. The shields were overwhelmed. Their recharge rate allows them to absorb a good quantity of the energy being directed at the ISD, but part of it inevitably falls through. There was nothing they could do to improve the shield efficiency - or it would be standard equipment on any ISD (unless you want to say that they are deliberately built with substandard shielding mechanisms).

About the seven blue giants: how can they be "on top" of seven blue giants simultaneously? Is there any distance given? Is there any information on the spatial distribution of the stars? And remember, the planet has been there for a lot longer than any ship, and it doesn't have any shielding, we must assume its surface materials are much weaker than that used on a warship's hull, and a planet's crust doesnt go through regular maintenance cycles, so the fact that its crust was melted proves absolutely nothing. Also, most of the effects mentioned on those quotes (such as the surface being cracked and spilling lava) can be attributed to gravitational disturbances pulling the planet apart, and not to sheer volume of radiation.
Though I'm not sure tidal forces would actually crack the planet that way, the point remarkably illustrates the griefs regarding the 7 blue giants references.

Apparently, here's the book's original quote:
========================================================
The problems will be minimal," Thrawn said with easy confidence. "If the jump is done with sufficient accuracy, the Judicator will be indirect sunlight for only a few minutes each way. It’s hull can certainly handle that much. We’ll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment
========================================================
Thrawn mentionning sunlight, would mean that for anyone arguing for exotic radiations still considered as sunlight, we'd be dealing with wavelenghts between radio waves and gamma rays. Uh-huh.

Styxx actually made a quick calc beforehand, on page 5.

Styxx estimated the amount of energy per square meter Mercury is doused in, on the average.
While Mercury's surface does not melt, and would then look like an improper basis for the calculation, it is interesting to see how the final numbers show that the energy levels would actually easily turn a rocky surface to slag.
Ok, I just ran some pretty sketchy calcs on the info we have here:

Total energy output of the Sun: 386 billion billion Megawatts
Mercury orbit radius: 57910000 Kilometers

Total output: 386.000.000.000.000.000.000 (or 3.86e20) Megawatts
Mercury orbit area: 42.142.179.625.092.325 Square Kilometers

Output per Square Kilometer: 9.160 (Megawatts)
Output per Square Meter: 0.00916 (Megawatts)


Round it up to 10 Kilowatts per square meter.
Multiply it by one thousand to account for the increased brightness of the star.
I suppose this increase by 1,000 is the high end increase you get if you consider a giant star, with a luminosity being 1,000 times that of our sun.
Total output of the star at Mercury's orbit: 10 Megawatts per square centimeter

One Megaton: 4.18e15 Joules

Total energy received per square meter second:
2,39234449760765550239234449760e-10

Or
2.4e-10 Megatons = 0,00024 Tons of TNT per square meter per second.

Now, let's multiply that for another million, making the star a billion times stronger than our own sun, and our figure into 240 Tons of TNT, or 0.24 Kilotons per square meter per second. The size of an ISD (which I believe, from the information I was given) is approximately 2 Kilometers on it's longest axis. Let's consider a spherical object, since we want the most conservative estimate possible.
240 tons of TNT per square meter per second is far far more than enough to melt the rock surface of a planet.

Even 1/100 of that energy would be enough to keep the surface melted.

An ISD is 1.6 km long, as far as official mesures are concerned.
Total area of an ISD (upper limit): 50.265.483 Square Meters
Exposed area of an ISD: 25.132.742 Square Meters
He uses a sphere for his calc, which is grossly overgenerous, because it will increase the surface area.
The width of an ISD would be more than 800 m (Robert founds 811.5 meters on his SW weapon ranges page).
Put into a cone surface area, we get:

Lateral surface area:

2,286,848.1815137048606421730042717 m²

Base surface are:

2,068,840.0787519571183595910881387 m²

Add them, divide them by 2 (exposed surface) and you see that we are already one order of magnitude below his figure, by using the correct dimensions.
Again, a cone has still more surface than a dagger shaped ship.
So, the total energy being absorbed by the ISD is:

6.031.859 Kilotons, or 6.032 Megatons, or around 6 Gigatons (7 to be sure).

Therefore, we can assert that 7 Gigatons worth of energy per second are enough to pierce the Star Destroyer's shields and inflict damage (at least moderate damage) to its hull.

Of course, there may be some error on those calcs, or that star could have been more than a billion times brighter than our own Sun, which would invalidate this assertion. Do you have any further info on the strenght of that star?

Oh, and:
From this place, we know that the peak output from a supernova is around 5e35 Watts, or 5e29 Megawatts. The imaginary star I considered on the calcs above was a billion times brighter than our own sun, meaning that its output was around 3.86e26 Megawatts. If the star was as strong as a supernova at its peak (which is doubtful), the damage figure would be, at most, around 7 Teratons per second, and still wouldn't reach the highest esimates we've got from the ICS book.

We could run some more precise calcs if we had an approximate distance to the star, and a better estimate on its luminosity values.
Considering that his final value is already one order of magnitude above what he should have obtained by using more appropriate formulas and dimensions, we end with a figure in the 600-700 megatons.
That is, of course, based on his initial increase by 1,000 which was the absolute high end factor you could accept by considering a giant star and its respective luminosity compared to Sol's.
That is apparently because Athega was said to be a brighter star. However, there's just no way you can multiply this arbitrarily. It's still a yellow star, from what I understand.
You can't increase the luminosity that much. Actually, even one order of magnitude above is completely wrong.

The Harvard table shows that as long as the star is a yellow one, you wouldn't even expect a luminosity higher than 1.2 that of Sol's, or at the very best 6 times that of Sol.

Thus, dividing the initial figure 700 megatons, by that same arbitrary 1,000 value, and multiplying it by 6, we obtain 4.2 megatons per second, for the whole exposed surface.

That's for the energy. But there's an important detail to consider.
Light Soldier's latest post was interesting:
Ok a few quotes.
Athega System: Athega system has long been seen as a potential source of raw materials. The worlds orbiting it’s sun are lifeless rocks, but they are rich in minerals and fuel stores. The only stumbling block to setting up a mining operation has been a major one--the intensity of the giant sun is so great that it melts even the heaviest shielding for starships.
See the "melts even the heaviest shielding" part,if you are smart enough to understand that energy shields cannot be melted, this mens heavy armour shielding etcetera. Again not a single mention of the radiations effect angainst shielding.
I'd point out that the quote does not mention any exotic radiations either. It simply says that the sun is giant. Yet other EU sources display it as a yellow sun.
Yellow giants seem to exist.

The luminosity of a giant star ranges from 10 to 1,000 that of our sun.

Which confirms the calculations.

In the end, we see that the conservative choice is to multiply by 10, not by 1,000 thousands.

Of course, let's pause for a moment.

Nkllon wouldn't be a viable exploitation if the surface was actually vaporized by the sun.
Maybe the material on Nkllon are a bit special, but I highly doubt it's rock free, really.

Remember when I said that even 240 tons per m² was already too high.

Well, chances are that it is too high.

The deal remains simple, anyway.

For Nkllon to be a viable economical profitable affair, the material on their planetoid must not be vaporized by the sun.

It can be melted, it can possibly be nearing vaporization state, but it would not be vaporized. Especially since I can't remember seeing Nkllon completely surrounded by a cloud of smoky tendrils... that vapor or plasma you'd expect as vaporized matter would drift away, and remain forever bathed by radiations.

So it would probably be very simple to actually know how much energy Nkllon receives, and thus you'd know the amount that can damage an ISD.

Even if the radiations bypassed shields, you'd know how much the hull can take.





Now, we can return to Poe's page.
I decided to copy all the extracts he provided.
"Darksaber" (Hardcover:)

pg.120-121: Tsoss Beacon transmitted its blind signal into the fiery soup of stars and gases near the heart of the deep core. The automated station had been constructed by droids and suicide crews on a planetoid scoured clean by an endless wash of radioactive storms and solar flares that swept the region.

When the worker droids completed the groundwork and installed high-efficiency radiation-shield generators, Daala brought the Firestorm into the ravening system, where hot gas swirled around them and shockwaves from stellar storms scrambled her sensors.

"Rebel Dawn"

pg.5: Before it was discovered in Bespin's atmosphere, tibanna gas had usually been found in stellar chromospheres and nebular clusters--which made harvesting it hazardous, to say the least.

"Darksaber" (Hardcover:)

pg.300: "Mendicat was a scrap mining and recycling station." Madine glared toward Sulamar. "Because of his error in programming the orbital computers, the station went off course and fell into the sun."

"Darksaber" (Hardcover:)

pg.63: As the forces of Supreme Warlord Harrsk reeled from the attack, Admiral Daala found herself on the command bridge of the Imperial Star Destroyer Firestorm.

Daala stood rigid on the bridge, staring out at the red giant star. Thick filters had been placed across the viewports so she could watch the blazing ocean of hot gas without blinking.

pg.65: She gave orders to the navigator, and the Firestorm edged to the front line of battleships. The three damaged Star Destroyers remained in eclipse, huddled in the shadow of Harrsk's hot world.

"Darksaber" (hardcover)

pg.56: The stormtroopers formed a tight and comforting honor guard around Daala as she strode down the fused corridors into the bedrock. Supreme Warlork Harrsk had estabished his stronghold on a rocky planet that orbited close to a red giant star. Its surface crust remained soft and cracked, seeping lava like an oozing wound. In orbit giant solar smelters provided energy and processed raw material to construct Harrsk's personal fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

pg.56: Daala thought of the unexploited military strength in the safe shadow of Harrsk's planet, where ripping rays from the red giant could not damage the ships' systems.

"Heir to the Empire"

pg.134: "Nkllon's a superhot planet--way too close to its sun for any normal ship to get to without getting part of its hull peeled off."

pg.140-141: "We're in Nkllon's shadow," Han told her, nodding toward the starless mass directly ahead of them.

"Incredible. Do you realize you can actually see part of the solar corona from here?" "Yeah, well, don't ask me to take you out for a closer look, " Han told her. "Those shieldships aren't just for show, you know--the sunlight out there is strong enough to fry every sensor we have in a few seconds and take the Falcon's hull off a couple of minutes later."

"Essential Guide to Planets and Moons"

pg. 140 "Lando Calrissian has a reputation as a smuggler, gambler, and ladies man, but he is also a consummate capitalist who likes to think big. Nomad city on the molten planet Nkllon was Lando's most ambitious project in a long and impressive career.""Heir to the Empire"

pg.160: "Such as taking a shuttle or living module and burying it underground," Lando said, a gleam coming in to his eye. "We put it right by the dawn line, and within a few hours you'd be under direct sunlight."

"Dark Apprentice" (Hardcover:)

pg.340: Near the center of the Cauldron Nebula, the two surviving Star Destroyers hung poised and ready to launch their attack on Coruscant.

pg.342: The Sun Crusher's sensor panels became useless in the ionized discharge from the knot of blue-giant stars that illuminated the Cauldron Nebula.

He piloted the Sun Crusher toward the bloated super-giants at the heart of the nebula.

pg.343: Kyp increased the radiation shields on the Sun Crusher and approached the mammoth blue-giant stars, seething in their ocean of star material.

A screen popped up, displaying a diagram of closely orbiting spheres. Seven enormous stars crowded in the middle of the nebula, circling in complex orbits as they stole gas from each other. Their intense radiation shone through the scattered hydrogen, oxygen, and neon clouds.

pg.348: "Full about!" she shouted. "One hundred eighty degrees, maximum speed. Get out of the nebula now!"

Kratas scrambled to the navigation station himself. The Gorgon lurched as the sublight engines kicked in, spinning the enormous Star Destroyer about.

pg.349: The sublight engines powered up, blasting as they lumbered away from the center of the nebula, picking up speed.

"Heir To The Empire"

pg.144: "Imperial Star Destroyer," Lando said quietly, "Coming in fast toward the planetary shadow."

pg.145: The Star Destroyer itself didn't worry him--if Lando's descriptions of the sunlight's intensity were right, the big ship itself was probably helpless by now, its sensors and maybe even a fair amount or its armament vaporized right off the hull.
In the graphic novel "Classic Star Wars vol. 3, the Executor is in close proximity to a sun as well:

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/myths ... r/exe1.jpg

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/myths ... r/exe2.jpg

Star Destroyer Executor closely orbiting Yavin's sun from "Classic Star Wars 3" graphic novel.
Let's look at Athega and Nkllon:

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/myths ... r/sw7a.jpg


So a couple of comments.

First, did Poe ever mesure the distance between Yavin's sun and the Executor?
I remember doing calculations for Stargate, for the episode Space Race, where ships, both shielded and unshielded, flew close to the local yellow sun.
As far as I can remember, the results were not impressive.

The Executor is in a similar situation.

As for the seven blue giants, the only information we get is that we're dealing with "closely orbiting spheres. Seven enormous stars crowded in the middle of the nebula, circling in complex orbits as they stole gas from each other. Their intense radiation shone through the scattered hydrogen, oxygen, and neon clouds."

It is possible that the blue giants had orbits which at several moments, brought them close to each other so they'd exchange matter. If this was done on a constant basis, I'm not sure you could talk about spheres anymore, as the book does.

But above, here's what we learn about the position of two star destroyers:

pg.340: Near the center of the Cauldron Nebula, the two surviving Star Destroyers hung poised and ready to launch their attack on Coruscant.

They are near the center of the nebula. Not a single line does ever claim that the ships were actually located between the blue giants.

Image

Fig 1: What Poe believes. He reads what he wants to read.
Fig 2: The situation described in the book.

Besides, notice how the destroyers are said to be lumbering away from the suns while on max thrust.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

watchdog
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Post by watchdog » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:38 pm

Dont know if this helps any but, these two images are from the comic version of the Thrawn novel;
Image
Image
I would need to look and see if there are any other pics from this book, also, in the comments you posted above. I dont know if you knew or not but the poster Barnabas Collins is Wayne Poe, that was the first user name he had at spacebattles. Lastly, there was a comment in the tales of the Jedi comic that the hyperdrive could be fried by a magnetic storm and it was later repeated in a writeup from the gamer magazine talking about the hazards of traveling to the Endor sector.

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:42 pm

What?
This is preposterous!

To even hint that SW ships could be affected by the same kind of radiation that affects ST ships is blasphemy... ;)

And you notice how the atmosphere of a planet that has now become ionized has the same effect on SW vessels that it has on ST vessels... :)

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:46 am

For a point of comparison, we have seen the E-D orbitng rather effortlessly near a red giant and it's neutron star companion. A companion that was gravitationally stealing matter off of the red giant:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =49&pos=32

The damaged E-D's view from an 150.000 km altitude above a an unusually active G-type star in "Relics":

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 29&pos=379

Compare with the Executor and Nkllon/Athega views.
-Mike

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:06 pm

And compare this to Hebridan spaceships from Stargate.
They race around G type suns for sheer fun. :)

The Seberus flies towards the sun:

Image

The Seberus has lost its power and shields (it's been sabotaged):

Image

Power rerouted and back online, the ship returns into the race:

Image

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