"Big Beams 'o Death" in Trek:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... els130.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... els131.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... gs1043.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... gs1047.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... gs1049.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... gs1057.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... gs1058.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... gs1059.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... gs1060.jpg
Or the Borg's "some type of laser beam" cutter:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x16/qwho_hd_259.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x16/qwho_hd_262.jpg
Carves several linear meters through the hull and a couple of underlying decks in under a second, no explosions, no fires, no scorching. But that was a magic Borg beam operating inside a forcefield/tractor beam, so I guess we could let that one slide.
Torpedo strikes on the hull with 100% shield penetration:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1 - (OK, the original vid has a bigger flash than the cap, but still pretty typical "weak sauce Hollywood effects.")
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
Here is the result of some disruptor strikes, at least the ones that hit, these Klingons apparently went to the Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.
Later a "spread" of torpedoes targeting the unshielded BOP's primary reactor:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... fullsize=1
And then there's a weapon hit that blows a hole through the double hull construction around the bridge of the Enterprise E, but is considerate enough to not fry/blind/irradiate the crew (or set fire to the carpet.)
http://www.cap-that.com/startrek/movies ... X_4031.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/startrek/movies ... X_4044.jpg
Later, we can enjoy watching the large warship blow up through the hole they put in the bridge....
http://www.cap-that.com/startrek/movies ... X_4770.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/startrek/movies ... X_4771.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/startrek/movies ... X_4772.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/startrek/movies ... X_4774.jpg
Here's a 23rd century Constitution Class vs. a mirror universe 22nd century NX.
Suddenly the "blue belly beam" from ROTS is in perfect company.
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/3/imag ... I_0053.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/3/imag ... I_0054.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/3/imag ... I_0055.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/3/imag ... I_0056.jpg
The only thing missing is the over-penetration, and that's usually considered a bad thing anyway.
Here are some fun pics of TL turrets shredding Venators after their defenses were nullified. Not bad for a rip-off of the Second Battle of Chin'toka:
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/clone- ... 2_0216.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/clone- ... 2_0213.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/clone- ... 2_0215.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/clone- ... 2_0223.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/clone- ... 2_0224.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/clone- ... 2_0226.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/clone- ... 2_0236.jpg
http://www.cap-that.com/starwars/clone- ... 2_0237.jpg
Or heck, here's the clip.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: ST definitely has proof in script of longer ranges measured in thousands of km for weapons such as phasers, and uses torpedoes too which have no reason to lose their targeting capacity against SW's warships, and ought to be just as great as for phasers, if not much better because they're guided.
On the other hand, at best you get 100 KM for Venators' turbolasers iirc from the ROTS novelization, and a very large and immobile ion cannon capable of hitting at ranges of thousands of km rather large ships with the agility of beached whales. Once might confer a semi-ability at homing to the ion projectiles that may explain their capacity to hit at such ranges despite their overall low speed.
"Artistic liberties." I'm afraid that one doesn't fly for me, at least as one sided as the evidence is. It's kind of like taking Trek's big, juicy, dialog based range "apple," and comparing it to Wars' little visuals based range "mandarin orange," while ignoring Trek's small visuals based "clementine orange" ranges. What does that leave us with, besides fruit salad? The dialogue/script/HUD may make more sense, and perhaps should take precedence, but Wars' offers no compatible comparison. And if the visuals are proportionately symbolic, then Wars may actually take the lead. If memory serves, the longest visually observed battle in Trek against a non-stationary target was the battle at Wolf 359 in the DS9 premiere, I think it was no more than 50 km. Note that I'm not advocating that position, just trying to illustrate my point. I actually agree that the narratives do suggest greater ranges for Trek. But with such vague data on the Wars side, how can it be clearly determined how much?Mr. Oragahn wrote: Are we talking about the artistic liberties taken for the sake of entertainment? Space battle ranges probably are the first things that get sacrificed on the altar of watchable fun, followed by real explosions, real lasers and momentum.
The point also is that ST clearly highlights the existence of this internal issues through production-side decisions and resulting contradictions between visual ranges and stated ones.
Nor does it help that one of the longest range engagements in TNG "The Wounded" involved transponder hacks. I imagine it's a lot easier to hit something that is actively broadcasting it's navigational data. That kind of feels like one of those military shows where they gush about the precision of the advanced "smart" ordinance while skimming over its huge reliance on someone "painting" the target or using input from an extensive satellite network. Of course there is still plenty of evidence putting Trek ranges in the tens of thousands of km and even past 100,000 km, but weighed against such a large number of much shorter visual ranges, one could question how reliably Trek ships can operate at these ranges under harsh combat conditions, assuming we take everything at face value, and try to merge them together.
On the SW side, in TPM scene where they are fleeing Naboo, it looks more impressive when you note that the flak and direct hits against the ship almost completely stop once the shields are compromised, it actually looks as though they may actively be trying not to hit the ship, just the repair droids, they do want them alive, after all. Or take the Malevolence firing on the Venators I referenced above, from the CW episode "Rising Malevolence." A novelty for SW, the shots against the first two ships look almost precise. The first target is hit with 100% accuracy, the second only shows a few missed shots, then the third gives us the usual spray of misses flying by the camera. Looking at that, I could guess that the power loss from the ion cannon was temporary, and by the time the third ship came under fire, some counter measures were starting to come back online. Okay, okay, I'll be the first to admit that is really reaching for a very specific conclusion from a short snippet of a cartoon. At any rate, if there's no "reason" for all the misses in SW, they're either "artistic liberties" that epically screw up analysis, or no one in the SW galaxy can hit the broad side of a barn. Maybe it's genetic.... Somewhere along the line, someone in Hollywood decided missing looks kool, I guess it's a sub-trope of bullet hell, I dunno.
True, but his calcs aren't ridiculously high. I'd call his example of Bastrop a very large town myself. But remember the level of destruction is inversely proportional to the level of firepower, a modest drop in TL energy would cause a significant drop on the level of destruction. To effectively "erase" an area of about 5 square km, which would roughly fit my own subjective definition of a "small town," you really can't go any lower than an Hiroshima level weapon, and even that could fall short of the destruction implied, as even the Hiroshima air burst left survivors less than a kilometer from the epicenter. I wouldn't go any lower than 10 KT bare minimum. Approaching a megaton should wreck the better part of what I would call a small city, so without further evidence I'd be suspicious of anything higher, but that still leaves a pretty good range of tens to low hundreds of KT in my book.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's also remember that G2K's calc veers on the higher side. A low kiloton shot landing on a small town would also totally vaporize it. It's good English too.
I usually estimate SW figures lower than their ST counterparts too, but I don't think it's a consistent gap of more than a full order of magnitude, all things considered. On top of all the "weak sauce" visuals Trek has doled out, like linked above, there are other narrative points too. For instance, it seems largely assumed that a comparatively sluggish, fusion powered craft over a kilometer in length would make for rather easy target to a typical Trek vessel. Except that I don't seem to recall DS9 being a death trap. As to firepower, just how much lower are SW yields to be than their ST counterparts, and where is the threshold at which incoming fire is not a threat? I can imagine that an ISD may well have less powerful rated weapons than a Galaxy class ship, but, while it's just hunch, I doubt the guns on an ISD are seriously outclassed by a Klingon Bird of Prey, obviously a relevant fixture in Trek. Even putting a Star Destroyer at a noteworthy disadvantage to the Big E.D., I'll wager you could swap ISDs for the BoPs in either TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise" or "Rascals" and achieve similar results. And how many ships in Starfleet are in the same league as the flagship of the Federation. Personally, I have doubts about how well a more common vessel like a Miranda or Excelsior would do against the backbone of the Imperial fleet. But that's just my guess.Mr. Oragahn wrote:There's practically always a gap of one order of magnitude if not more in favour of Trek. Not my fault, it's the way it goes.
Oh, as a side note, I finally found a good source for SW movie and show screencaps. Hooray! The last one was nice, but kept generating bad links when I tried to link it here.