ST-v-SW.net: Rise calcs

[vivftp]

"So Geordi, where on the ship would be the best place for us to monkey about with the inner workings of a missile with an antimatter warhead?"

"Why, right in front of the warp core, of course. Just be sure to aim it away from the warp core."

(twitch)

Joking aside, they had to prepare the torpedo for a manual launch. Geordi programmed it for maximum yield from his engineering terminal. That would indicate he was pre-programming the torpedo for the amount of reactants it should be injected with when launching.

[vivftp]

Even still, a photon torpedo casing still has enough volume inside it to contain the body of an adult humanoid male or female (read: Spock, Lisa Cusak, or Jadzia) easily, which means with some modifications a torpedo can potentially still contain a fairly large amount of matter and antimatter reactants in it, should the need arise. This also brackets the minimum possible length, width, and height of the average torpedo casing.
-Mike

Well I didn't say they weren't large enough, I was addressing the notion that the class 8 probe and photon torpedo casings are the same.

We've seen photon torpedo warheads before, and they're maybe the size of a large grapefruit. They very well might clear out additional space to put in a larger warhead, like with the class 10 torpedo seen in VOY's Scorpion. That particular torpedo was far more powerful than any other normal photon torpedo. The only issue is we don't know what they had to do to fit in that larger warhead. They might have had to sacrifice other internal systems in the torpedo to make room for the high yield warhead.


Also, I need a favour here. I need the name of some good (preferrably free or cheap) software that would allow you to both do a frame-by-frame runthrough of a DVD, and take screenshots. If anyone has some suggestions, it'd be appreciated.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Cheap or free? Don't know. I know Power DVD, which is often provided within bundles along graphic cards and so, and it does all that. It saves pictures as BMPs, so be prepared to make lots of place.

[vivftp]

Cheap or free? Don't know. I know Power DVD, which is often provided within bundles along graphic cards and so, and it does all that. It saves pictures as BMPs, so be prepared to make lots of place.

Hmm, I'm sure I have a copy on disc somewhere. So it lets you frame advance just fine?

I'll give it a try.

Thanks.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes, it does, but you need a good load of memory, otherwise it will start to skip frames.
You can also go back a couple of frames, with CTRL+B I think, while CTRL+T steps one frame up, and C captures what's on screen (there's a couple of options to set before that, to be sure that you capture the video with the right dimensions, generally screengrab what you see).

[Mike DiCenso]

Even still, a photon torpedo casing still has enough volume inside it to contain the body of an adult humanoid male or female (read: Spock, Lisa Cusak, or Jadzia) easily, which means with some modifications a torpedo can potentially still contain a fairly large amount of matter and antimatter reactants in it, should the need arise. This also brackets the minimum possible length, width, and height of the average torpedo casing.
-Mike

Well I didn't say they weren't large enough, I was addressing the notion that the class 8 probe and photon torpedo casings are the same.

We've seen photon torpedo warheads before, and they're maybe the size of a large grapefruit. They very well might clear out additional space to put in a larger warhead, like with the class 10 torpedo seen in VOY's Scorpion. That particular torpedo was far more powerful than any other normal photon torpedo. The only issue is we don't know what they had to do to fit in that larger warhead. They might have had to sacrifice other internal systems in the torpedo to make room for the high yield warhead.


Also, I need a favour here. I need the name of some good (preferrably free or cheap) software that would allow you to both do a frame-by-frame runthrough of a DVD, and take screenshots. If anyone has some suggestions, it'd be appreciated.

Actually, yes they can remove hardware to make room for different size warheads, if need be, as per DS9's "The Valiant" [S6]:

Farris: We found a flaw in the design of their antimatter storage system.
The primary support braces are made of viterium.

Watters: It's a very strong, very resilient metal alloy which just happens to become extremely unstable when exposed to delta radiation.

Farris: A single torpedo, rigged with a radiogenic warhead could reduce those braces to the consistency of wet pasta.

Watters: As a result, the entire antimatter storage system would tear itself apart.
Commander Nog.
You don't seem convinced.

Nog: Well, sir, in-in order to rig a torpedo to yield a delta radiation burst I'll have to remove most of the guidance systems.
We'll have to target it manually.

Here's the only really good look of Nog working on the torpedo, but you cannot really see inside it to look at the size of the warhead or much of anything else, or at what point in his work he's at:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 54&pos=261

But the possibility still is there for larger warheads, if you are willing to sacrifice other hardware to do so. Also remember that firing a torpedo does not necessarily require even propulsion hardware, since we see Spock's torpedo fired off, and it did not have any obvious internal hardware (even had a shield-like glow to it with trail).
-Mike

[vivftp]

Okeedokee, my latest photon torpedo calc has been posted on SB. Here's the link:

http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthrea ... ost3356696

[Jedi Master Spock]

I have to say, I'm still not particularly fond of the use of an entirely separate episode for scaling the torpedo.

[vivftp]

I have to say, I'm still not particularly fond of the use of an entirely separate episode for scaling the torpedo.

As I mentioned in the thread, there really isn't a reliable way to scale the Rise torpedo as it's being launched from Voyager. Even if you could get its exact size in relation to Voyager just as it's being launched, there's the whole "glow grow" factor. I've frame advanced through it, and just as it's being launched, the torpedo does not have the same appearancce as it later does, with the glowing spikes and whatnot. The fact of the matter is, we don't know at what stage the glow is fully "formed", so there's no way to tell if the figures we're getting are accurate or not. Sure it might provide one helluva low end, but that's about it. My first scaling of the Rise asteroid was actually using the same torpedo as it left Voyager. I'd probably get a different result now since I have a higher quality version though.

As for using another episode, I feel it's within reason. I've provided my evidence showing they're the same class torpedo, so there should be no issues using it. Any other torpedo from say, TNG, DS9, the movies, or later Voyager, yeah, there'd be issues using those, but anything before Scorpion should be just hunky dory.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I have to say, I'm still not particularly fond of the use of an entirely separate episode for scaling the torpedo.

As I mentioned in the thread, there really isn't a reliable way to scale the Rise torpedo as it's being launched from Voyager. Even if you could get its exact size in relation to Voyager just as it's being launched, there's the whole "glow grow" factor. I've frame advanced through it, and just as it's being launched, the torpedo does not have the same appearancce as it later does, with the glowing spikes and whatnot. The fact of the matter is, we don't know at what stage the glow is fully "formed", so there's no way to tell if the figures we're getting are accurate or not. Sure it might provide one helluva low end, but that's about it. My first scaling of the Rise asteroid was actually using the same torpedo as it left Voyager. I'd probably get a different result now since I have a higher quality version though.

As for using another episode, I feel it's within reason. I've provided my evidence showing they're the same class torpedo, so there should be no issues using it. Any other torpedo from say, TNG, DS9, the movies, or later Voyager, yeah, there'd be issues using those, but anything before Scorpion should be just hunky dory.

Within reason if that were our only option. It is a bit error prone with the number of steps taken; additionally, what we really need if we're going to take other episodes is to try to derive the torpedo glow size empirically using numerous examples. IIRC, we actually have a number such; the only one we can be sure of is "Rise," but if we have enough that point to similar sizes, we can produce a good size range for torpedo glows.

There's also the problems with using the asteroid destruction calculator. It's actually not too accurate in terms of actual applied events when it comes to vaporizing asteroids; we could easily go a magnitude higher (on energy distribution issues and possible superheating) or almost half a magnitude lower (because the assumptions of the asteroid destruction calculator are problematic in many cases, and presumed vaporization may have only been mostly complete.)

We can also look at the rest of the episode to further bracket it. IIRC, some chunks hit the planet, and we see lots of very similar asteroids later in the episode, which we might be able to get a statistical spread for.

[vivftp]

Within reason if that were our only option. It is a bit error prone with the number of steps taken; additionally, what we really need if we're going to take other episodes is to try to derive the torpedo glow size empirically using numerous examples. IIRC, we actually have a number such; the only one we can be sure of is "Rise," but if we have enough that point to similar sizes, we can produce a good size range for torpedo glows.

The number of steps is pretty minial, especially compared to the Future's End one I did in the previous photon torpedo thread.

If you're suggesting we try to scale any and all photon torpedo examples prior to the end of Voyagers season 3, then I'd say that's gonna be pretty much impossible. Most, if not all of those instances would require us to know the size of the targets, which we don't. Sure I can take a look, but I wouldn't hold my breath with this.

There's also the problems with using the asteroid destruction calculator. It's actually not too accurate in terms of actual applied events when it comes to vaporizing asteroids; we could easily go a magnitude higher (on energy distribution issues and possible superheating) or almost half a magnitude lower (because the assumptions of the asteroid destruction calculator are problematic in many cases, and presumed vaporization may have only been mostly complete.)

I know the ADC isn't the most accurate thing to use here since it presumes the explosive is in the center of the asteroid. From what I understand the final yield should actually be a fair bit higher for the photon torpedos, but figuring out that math is beyond my ability to do. If someone else wants to take a stab at it, then by all means. For the here and now, the ADC is the best way to do it that I know of.

We can also look at the rest of the episode to further bracket it. IIRC, some chunks hit the planet, and we see lots of very similar asteroids later in the episode, which we might be able to get a statistical spread for.

We don't know the size of those chunks. Parts of them burned up in the atmosphere, but we don't know how much, or what their complete composition was. This is all we hear about their effect:

TUVOK: I've destroyed most of the debris, Captain, however targeting scanners were unable to track two of the fragments. They have already entered the upper atmosphere. The debris impacted on the largest continent, approximately 500 kilometres from the southern tip.
NEZU AMBASSADOR: The central desert. Fortunately that region isn't heavily populated.
TUVOK: Substantial cratering, atmospheric shockwaves, and large concentrations of dust and other stratospheric contaminants.


I know of no way to garner any figures for such a vague description. We do see them impacting however, so maybe speed calcs are possible.


Also, there were no further asteroids later in the episode. There were numerous asteroids prior to the start of the episode however. There is a bit of dialogue which might put an upper limit on the asteroid however. Later in the episode Voyager goes to intercept what they think is another asteroid, but it turns out it's an alien ship fooling them to think it's an asteroid. Here's what we hear:

KIM: Captain, I'm getting more detailed sensor readings on the approaching asteroid. It's huge, over half a kilometre in diameter. It's moving faster than the others.

Kims statement that it's huge might serve as an indicator that it's larger then the previous asteroids. It's not concrete, but it is the impression that I get. If this IS true, then I should note that even the highest diameter figure from my calcs is below this figure.

[Mike DiCenso]

Speed calcs for the asteroid's debris impacts can be further characterized by the observed enviromental effects they had on the planet. An image of the first of the two fragments impacting:


http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =49&pos=15

Tuvok and Neelix's shuttle hitting extreme atmospheric trouble due to the fragments' effects:

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =49&pos=35

Dialog describing the effects:

TUVOK: We're entering a layer of electro-dynamic turbulence. Full power to thrusters.

NEELIX: Thrusters aren't responding.

Even a low megatons impact would not likely cause such extreme turbulence as that well after the event had occured.
-Mike

[vivftp]

Speed calcs for the asteroid's debris impacts can be further characterized by the observed enviromental effects they had on the planet. An image of the first of the two fragments impacting:


http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =49&pos=15

Tuvok and Neelix's shuttle hitting extreme atmospheric trouble due to the fragments' effects:

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =49&pos=35

Dialog describing the effects:

TUVOK: We're entering a layer of electro-dynamic turbulence. Full power to thrusters.

NEELIX: Thrusters aren't responding.

Even a low megatons impact would not likely cause such extreme turbulence as that well after the event had occured.
-Mike

There's no evidence to suggest the disturbances they encountered were caused by those particular asteroid chunks. The planet had been hit numerous times before, and those disturbances could've been caused by any of those impacts.


BTW, I've made an addition to my Rise calc in the link I posted earlier. I've re-done the entire calc using ONLY the Rise torpedo as it's launched from Voyager. The final results aren't all that different then my original calc, which is nice to see.

[Mike DiCenso]

Correction of sorts: We do know the effects, not only visually, but Tuvok also describes it:


NEZU AMBASSADOR: The central desert. Fortunately that region isn't heavily populated.

TUVOK: Substantial cratering, atmospheric shockwaves, and large concentrations of dust and other stratospheric contaminants.

These fragements also were large enough that they survived a high-speed, relatively steep atmospheric entry, as well.
-Mike

[2046]

I don't think the two we see impacting are the same two biggest chunks that go flying off the asteroid.

The two biggest chunks go flying off in separate directions. The two pieces we see impacting hit within miles-or-less of one another, which is . . . orbitally speaking . . . highly unlikely.

They also appear generally smaller based on rough eyeball scaling of terrain features, fire characteristics, and so on, though this element to the argument is not required due to the overwhelming nature of the direction case.