View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:10 am



Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Gizmodo's Take 
Author Message
Bridge Officer

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Posts: 168
Location: A Beta Quadrant far far away
Reply with quote
2046 wrote:
I will be in this thread piecemeal due to the walls of text and some limited time lately.

(I have no room to talk about walls of text, so don't take it badly.)


Not at all, my problem with walls of text usually stem from laziness, your reason is better. Besides, I've been to st-v-sw.net, plenty of thorough analysis there! I could poke around there and argue with myself if I were so inclined. ;)


2046 wrote:
This is an interesting point, DS, except we have also seen TCW, which is basically like NCIS or something inasmuch as having a well-funded more-or-less military group of jetsetting specialists with all manner of fancy toys at their disposal, with the bonus that they are also leaders of a war effort.

In that sense, by your argument, Star Wars has it better than Trek, some would argue.


True enough, and it perfectly fits what I've observed about sci-fi franchises: the longer they live, they weirder and weaker they tend to get. Still, the more NCIS type episodes tended to give us stuff like cell phones with DNA scanners, little bots that perform major, on the fly body alterations, exotic chemicals that alter certain alien's bodies to enable them to survive contact with deadly ray shields, wearable holographic disguises, long abandoned warehouses still stocked with fancy nanodroids that can turn a guy into a stealthy bomb, and holographic programs that can generate accurate, full scale, immersive recreations of complex disasters based on security recordings.

Yikes, another chunk of excessive text there. But yeah, those NCIS style episodes kind of felt like episodes of Voyager on acid....


Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:23 am
Profile
Admiral
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Posts: 6862
Location: Paradise Mountain
Reply with quote
Darth Spock wrote:
2046 wrote:
I will be in this thread piecemeal due to the walls of text and some limited time lately.

(I have no room to talk about walls of text, so don't take it badly.)


Not at all, my problem with walls of text usually stem from laziness, your reason is better. Besides, I've been to st-v-sw.net, plenty of thorough analysis there! I could poke around there and argue with myself if I were so inclined. ;)


2046 wrote:
This is an interesting point, DS, except we have also seen TCW, which is basically like NCIS or something inasmuch as having a well-funded more-or-less military group of jetsetting specialists with all manner of fancy toys at their disposal, with the bonus that they are also leaders of a war effort.

In that sense, by your argument, Star Wars has it better than Trek, some would argue.


True enough, and it perfectly fits what I've observed about sci-fi franchises: the longer they live, they weirder and weaker they tend to get. Still, the more NCIS type episodes tended to give us stuff like cell phones with DNA scanners, little bots that perform major, on the fly body alterations, exotic chemicals that alter certain alien's bodies to enable them to survive contact with deadly ray shields, wearable holographic disguises, long abandoned warehouses still stocked with fancy nanodroids that can turn a guy into a stealthy bomb, and holographic programs that can generate accurate, full scale, immersive recreations of complex disasters based on security recordings.

Yikes, another chunk of excessive text there. But yeah, those NCIS style episodes kind of felt like episodes of Voyager on acid....


What kind of NCIS is that?
I'm still stuck on the original spin off to Jag.
Is it the boys band Acapulco variant?


Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:32 am
Profile
Jedi Master

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Posts: 2239
Reply with quote
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Basic radars can detect asteroids, especially at close range.
The case of an asteroid hitting an ISD would most likely be well explained by said asteroid having been largely masked until whatever masked it moved out of the way.

The first warning Han got that he was flying into a dense asteroid field was asteroids hitting his ship. Star Wars sensor tech often underperforms real world stuff.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Where do we get this confirmation?
The Empire took on where the Republic left and ARC fighters didn't appear out fashioned.
It seems the Empire made a choice in phasing out a given type of starfighter for another kind.
Still, the Empire had its main contractor developping TIE variants which were meant to offer more versatility. Notably crafts with shields, hyperdrives, more weapons and longer operation ranges.

A-Wings, B-Wings, and X-Wings are a generation younger then the standard T.I.E. and the same generation as the T.I.E. Interceptor and T.I.E. Defender.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Klingons didn't think that way until peace treaties, much later.
Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion and other groups I might forget, they didn't seem to have a problem with being plain hostile.

The Klingons and Romulans only fought minor border skirmishes with the Federation, and no side tried a General Order 24

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Is it what the new show demonstrates? Because from the movies alone, there's not such a thing to infer. In fact, the Empire is so vast that it can allow itself to count crappy worlds alongside medium and well developped ones.

One could project Earth and assume that its distribution of wealth and technology is similar to that of the Empire.
It wouldn't be a big deal.

We are talking about Naboo, Pantora, Mandalore, Ryloth type planets needing to import food and water rather then random mud hole 5.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Both sides have to solve problems in the mapping. The pressure is due to all the factors I listed in my post.

It took thousands of years for hyper-lanes to be mapped, and even then they are still finding new ones that were right in front of them.

It took a few days to enhance the maps on Voyager, and they cut something like 5 years off their trip with a stellar cartography lab.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
When we're dealing with an Empire which knows its chorus about plasma weapons and beams and all sorts of advanced bits of technology and, I think, even a handful of secret projects involving fancier bits of tech, the Empire can count on a certain capacity to retroengineer some tech.
For instance, how long did it take the UFP to discover and implement its first phaser banks?
Not much long. If anything, based on ENT, a small crew of men did it.
The idea that the Empire wouldn't count geniuses and couldn't use its vast resources to find people to reproduce the same kind of evolution, if given a couple hints (like a piece of tech to study) is quite absurd.

Worst of all, the Empire doesn't need to have state of the art tech, just a base start to fill the gap. That would easily happen by acquiring the details of a tech that would be outdated. The idea that a 50 years old piece of phaser wouldn't be explained on some interstellar wiki within the UFP is hardly believable.

1) And they will magically have the tools needed to make use of the information because? Simply being advanced in one area in no way shows being advanced in all areas needed to make use of a design or theory in a practical manner. The Empire will need non-standard tools to build and maintain Star Trek technologies as hydro-spanners/screwdrivers aren't going to cut it.

This isn't to say everything will be alien to the other faction as things like hyper-space and sub-space are very similar if not directly related, but even if you understand the underlying physics does not mean you can build the thing.

Then you have different methods of doing the same thing. Both Star Wars and Star Trek have fusion reactors, but the designs are drastically different

2) I think you are over estimating the usefulness of the average online article.

3) Even outdated Star trek technology would require things like special discharge crystals, and some sources state they are room temperture super-conductoring crystals.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
And to top it all, this does not include Trek scientists working for the Empire, from non-affiliated ones to enemies of the UFP finding an opportunity here. Or even scientists who, within the UFP's confines, felt they didn't have enough liberties to... experiment. That's the advantage presented by a more ruthless empire.

Except the Empire has no way to get scientists to work for them in any numbers that matter, and lack the tools the scientists would need. Really the Empire has nothing to offer a sane Star Trek setting scientist, and you really don't want the crazies. You really think that the Empire's enemies are going to let their best and brightest go work for the enemy?

The Star Trek side is far more likely to get defectors from the Empire.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
1. To what clients? Would they dare do that against a galactic empire?

Quark and his cousin Barbo sold defective warp drive to the Tarahong government according to statements in DS9: The Nagus..

Kira and Jadzia Dax both say greedy, misogynistic, untrustworthy little trolls who they wouldn't turn their backs to.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2. No they aren't because the Ferengi, like any ultra capitalist faction, are going to see mass potential in establishing trade within the Empire, and there, using the imperial currency will prove very, very valuable to acquire immense amounts of goods. The Ferengi will accept what allows trade.

No, the Ferengi are not soft in the head idiot like the Trade Federation, but rather more like the Hutts or the Mafia as depicted in many movies like the God Father. They aren't going to sell the Federation out to a bunch of literal Nazi Communists like the Empire.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
3. The Empire isn't here to sell but to acquire.

And the Empire still has to pay somehow, but they have little to nothing to pay with.

If the Empire tries to take by force then the Ferengi military will take action, and the Ferengi government will blacklist them.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
4.a. The Empire doesn't look far more hostile than the Dominion to me. If anything, the war waged by the Empire would be one of pragmatism, with the Empire not accepting any competition and to solve Palpatine's insecurities.

The Empire's strategy is cartoon villainy, and always has been. The Ferengi saw the Dominion as a bad thing for them according to Quark who was more or less the Ferengi's eyes and ears on the topic.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
4.b. I'd also like absolute evidence of the claim that the Ferengi didn't sell to the Dominion at all, and any reasons to explain this.

We never hear of the Ferengi betraying the Federation, Klingons, or Romulans..

I'd like you to prove the Ferengi sold out the Federation?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
4.c. Finally, there's lot to gain by trading with the Empire's worlds. I'm not even counting native resources which don't exist in Trekverse.

Not really as gold is nearly worthless in Star Trek, but a big thing in Star Wars.

Why would the Ferengi trade when they can steal and counterfeit credits, and then sell the things of value to groups with things of value like the Federation? We aren't talking about the soft in the head Trade Federation here.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
5. See points made in the paragraphs above.

YOu aren't making sense in the above, and often assuming hyper-compatence for a setting where PIS is needed for almost any evil plot to work.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Power and/or a lack of trust in aliens?
You only see the nice part of the UFP, which itself remains spectacularly human-centric despite its pretense on being open to many xenospecies.
Human nature is what it is, you can't erase that.
The vision of a human empire dominating an entire galaxy can be very inspiring.
If anything, you just need some humans who had rather displeasing experiences with foreign species to get set.

So, you are claiming that large groups will give everything up to become slaves?

Where are you getting the idea that the Federation is human centric?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Empire isn't thousands of years old. What's your point?
Play devil's advacate all you want, but don't insult me like this.

I'll except you concession that the GFFA is not good R&D even when they have at least a thousand years and the resources to so it..

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
1. Vader can fill the role. Emperor is only a status. The Empire collapsed because as odd as it was, its structure was struck in its very heart and both Sith fell at once.

No Vader can't just step up and fill the role of Emperor without a senate giving him the power, and Vader seems to lack the respect/fear the Emperor had.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2. It's a non argument. You're even admiting that there would also be a large number of Imperials not in "for the evils". Vader, as Anakin, believed in order, strong order that is. He hated the Hutt who were outlaws, operating on the fringes of the Republic, and who are ultimately responsible of his shitty life and his mother's death. He hated the traitors from the CIS who, from his point of view, started the war and ultimately had him take absolute measures to get things done. He also hated Jedi for the wimps they were and their incapacity to use force and power when needed. In other words, Vader has ZERO reason not to take all measures necessary to unite the galaxy against the UFP the moment the war is declared. Being "in for the evils" is rather irrelevant at that point.

Wow, your reading comprehension is better then this. Stop insulting me. I just stated the opposite.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
What event are you talking about in particular? If you think of Alderaan, the very weapon that destroyed this planet was the result of a construction project started decades before, when the Empire was nascent.
So the use of the Death Star is pretty much the logical conclusion of putting to good use that fearsome piece of technology, not the results of some overstretch whatsoever.

If you are going to play devil's advocate, i would suggest you at least try to sound intelligent because you are being rather insulting right now.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Please provide proof of the underlined section.
His whole ascension is well structured and thought out. He pretty much single handedly organized the whole Clone Wars that engulged an entire galaxy.

Palpatine's entire plan basically required the Jedi to be idiots who don't investigate the clone army

The stupid risks he took in Return of the Jedi. did get him killed

Fives nearly killed him

The events of The Phantom Menace, there's no way someone could have identified him from the holo projections

You have Asoka's trial

Palpatine was insane, lucky, and pitted against dimwits rather then a Ranma Saotome(I realize this one sounds odd to a lot of people), Batman, or David Xanatos.

Heck, Cracked.com even wrote a serious article about it.
http://www.cracked.com/article_17546_7- ... -ball.html


Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:10 am
Profile
Jedi Master

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Posts: 2239
Reply with quote
Darth Spock wrote:
To be honest, when I very first encountered the idea of Star Wars vs Star Trek in about 2004, with the same themed mod for the Star Trek Armada PC game, my initial reaction, after a moment’s thought, was that Trek would win. Like pitting a nuclear submarine against a WW2 battleship. I didn't give it another thought for years (the mod was buggy and crashed my computer constantly too, pity). Since reexamining such a scenario more recently though, reading between the lines, and not just accepting the knee jerk reaction that Trek "looks" and "sounds" more high tech, I think that, while Trek tech may hold the overall technological advantage, it's by a much smaller margin than entries such as this purport.

Star Trek's series typically present the crème de la crème of the Federation, disciplined rocket scientists aboard state of the art military vessels. Star Wars generally has us following back world civilians, guerrillas, politicians, warrior monks and front line troopers. It's more like taking a story set on a 1960's, or even a 1980's nuclear submarine, where the environment is cutting edge, and advanced technology and weaponry is commonly referred to. Then we compare it to a story following a modern day soldier in his barracks, where nobody talks about advanced technology, we never see any nuclear weapons in use, and it would be easy to miss the implications of the smart phone in his pocket, or the satellite positioning and other electronics in his "crude" gasoline powered vehicle. Without previous knowledge of these environments, an observer of such "fictional" environments could easily conclude that the former scenario represented a far more technologically advanced society and military.

This argument would have some bite if we didn't have 5/6 seasons of Star Wars: The Clone Wars on top of 6 movies to draw from. We see the best Star Wars has, and we know they have their "creme de la creme" of Star Wars during the Clone Wars, and technology does not change all that much between the O.T. and P.T., but then one wouldn't expect a huge jump in capability for the average ship in Star Trek in a time frame of about 20ish years either

Darth Spock wrote:
Palpatine is evil, to put it simply.

That doesn't mean you start invading every inhabited system that isn't a part of your empire before you have the numbers to do it. Insane does not equal evil

Darth Spock wrote:
He orchestrated events to start a large war so as to give him a private, centralized army, not the combined forces of numerous sovereign member world militias, or the Jedi "police" force, who would normally serve as the Republic's defense, not that there was much to defend from, aside from pirates or an internal threat, which is what he used.

Which was needed simply to police the area the Republic already controlled, and may not have been a large enough force for the job. Invading your neighbors when you don't have full control of your own territory is over extending your forces

Darth Spock wrote:
He then kept the war going long enough to break the Republic's back and eradicate the Jedi, leaving a weakened galaxy with the bulk of its military under his direct control before disbanding the CIS droid forces.

The Jedi were too small to really do much of anything. Even if you had a million Jedi, you'd be short handed with a 100,000 planets.

Darth Spock wrote:
He then used the rebellion to justify continued military development until the Death Star could be completed, at which point he would have the ultimate weapon of terror to threaten would be dissenters with.

No, the Death Stars were built because the emperor doesn't want rebellions of any sort. He even risked his own life in order to act as bait in Return of the Jedi do to not wanting rebels. He never wanted a rebellion.

Darth Spock wrote:
A massive fleet can be fought, or compromised by ambitious admirals or Sith apprentices. The Death Star would (in theory) be impossible for smaller planetary governments to combat, especially with most of their private military power stripped and integrated into the Empire. Any group acts up, and their sympathizers, their family, friends, homes and entire cultures will be space dust.

1) A Death Star would be unbeatable by his own fleet.

2) In order to control a large area, you need a large fleet to police it. You can't control 100,000 to 1,000,000 star systems with one ship, or even a few thousand or so.

3) The rebels had sympathizers do to the fact the Empire was invading planets, and then making a point to make a general ass of itself. Heck, the rebels existed do to the Empire's agents being corrupt jerks more so then the invasions.

Darth Spock wrote:
The Federation better fits the sci-fi "post-scarcity" model, but they still do a lot of things the "old fashioned way," rather than relying on replicators exclusively, which is probably for the best. However it goes to show that production and distribution is still a factor in the Federation, though replicators and the like provide enhanced industrial versatility, emergency back up, and simplified resource management aboard space facilities. They are far from household appliances though.

1) Not to be rude, but this is rather assuming because replicators are literally household appliances in the United Federation of Planets, and Sisko was tasked with dropping some off at AR-558. They often come as small as modern microwave ovens with computer and power source included it seems.

2) If they got their heads out of their asses, and stopped building stupid stuff like Death Stars and Coruscant; the Republic or the Empire could be post-scarcity in every way that matters.

Darth Spock wrote:
Palpatine being, well, Palpatine, who is actually Sidious the insidious, I can just see him establishing trade relations, cultural integration, and demonstrations of the magical wonder of hyperspace travel (the slowest and oldest around, of course.)

1) In which case Palpi very likely just gave the Federation and anyone else from Star Trek hyper-drives purely from the sensor data.

2) There really isn't much Star Wars has to trade Star Trek, and once a Star trek faction has traded for the few gems of Star Wars tech they will no longer need to trade.

Darth Spock wrote:
The predominately human Federation would be a preferable base for the specist Empire. Furthermore, the Federation, for all its "tolerance" of other species, the clear dominance of humans in Starfleet, and that Azetbur would say that "The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club" in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, indicates the Federation wouldn't be immune to favoring being allies with a "human" organization, especially with the promise of gaining access to a distant galaxy.

And yet humans are a minority in the Federation, and entire ships are crewed by non-humans for various reasons. Just because human crewed ships may hangout near the Klingon/Federation border means little.

Darth Spock wrote:
While the Dominion Changelings had a huge infiltration advantage, Palpatine's guile shouldn't be underestimated.

Palpatine is stupid and reckless, and is greatly over estimated do to dealing with idiots who never bother to actually investigate. When your plans require PIS to work, you aren't very good.

Darth Spock wrote:
He would no doubt quickly work to supply and inflame the Maquis, and any other rogue groups he could find.

Palpatine has nothing he can give them that they would need or want

Darth Spock wrote:
The Klingons seem always to be on the verge of civil war,

And if that was true then there would be no Klingon empire, and when they find out about his clumsy plot he's going to have some rather big problems on his hands.

Darth Spock wrote:
the Romulans love a good conspiracy,

If it benefits them, but they aren't going to trust Palpatine, and he has very little to offer. Palpatine doesn't do too well when he doesn't have PIS on his side.

If you haven't noticed, all of Palpatine's pawns and enemies were kind of the too stupid to live type.

Darth Spock wrote:
and the Cardassians just need some encouragement to renew hostilities.

No, after TNG: The Wounded, the Cardassians realized the Federation could crush them with basically one ship if they wanted to, and the Carassians aren't the too stupid to live Trade Federation.

Anything that Palpatine could give that would get the Cardassians to attack the Federation would be too easily traced back to him.

Darth Spock wrote:
I imagine he would try to duplicate the success he saw in the SW prequels. War after war would break out in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, while the Federations fleets are slowly whittled down, all while their new friends from another galaxy offer support, slowly digging their hooks in deeper and deeper.

The more Palpatine does, the more likely Palpatine is to be caught doing it, and without everyone being bumbling morons he and past Sith helped get into power.

PIS can be rather painful at times in Star Wars.>_<


Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:43 am
Profile
Bridge Officer

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Posts: 168
Location: A Beta Quadrant far far away
Reply with quote
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
What kind of NCIS is that?
I'm still stuck on the original spin off to Jag.
Is it the boys band Acapulco variant?


Oh, uh, the first one with the head slapping Gibbs and the goth techie chick. It's been years since I watched though, the mood was ruined when they killed Kate. My word, it's still on the air?!

Lucky wrote:
The first warning Han got that he was flying into a dense asteroid field was asteroids hitting his ship. Star Wars sensor tech often underperforms real world stuff.


Actually, I recall Han and Chewie were in the back trying to fix the hyperdrive, Leia was the one in the driver seat, and I'm not sure how experienced a pilot she is. I'd say all her attention was on the Imperials hammering at their butt anyway.

Lucky wrote:
We are talking about Naboo, Pantora, Mandalore, Ryloth type planets needing to import food and water rather then random mud hole 5.


After the war broke out, yes, the supply of basic needs was pathetic. However, I don't recall Naboo or Pantora lacking food or water. Mandalore, judging from dialogue and the appearance of the planet from orbit, looked to be struggling to resuscitate a dead world that had been devastated, possibly even glassed, during ancient wars. Ryloth was in the middle of active hostilities with the CIS in the dominant position, and putting the squeeze on all available resources.

Lucky wrote:
No, the Ferengi are not soft in the head idiot like the Trade Federation, but rather more like the Hutts or the Mafia as depicted in many movies like the God Father. They aren't going to sell the Federation out to a bunch of literal Nazi Communists like the Empire.

The Empire's strategy is cartoon villainy, and always has been. The Ferengi saw the Dominion as a bad thing for them according to Quark who was more or less the Ferengi's eyes and ears on the topic.


I'll buy that, but, the Hutts had no trouble doing business with Republic, and seemed to be managing just fine during the Empire's reign, in spite of the damage done by Maul's plot during the Clone Wars. The Ferengi likely recognized that the Dominion would not be inclined to leave them to their own commercial devices once they were the lord governors overseeing their new territory. The *wink wink, nudge nudge* shady business dealings the Empire is all to happy to engage in would likely look appealing to the Ferengi, compared to the more communistic UFoP ideology, which openly looks down on the Ferengi capitalist arrangement. There are other factions as well, don't forget the Son'a, who happily got in bed with the Dominion and Starfleet.

Lucky wrote:
Not really as gold is nearly worthless in Star Trek, but a big thing in Star Wars.

Why would the Ferengi trade when they can steal and counterfeit credits, and then sell the things of value to groups with things of value like the Federation? We aren't talking about the soft in the head Trade Federation here.


Well, I don't know how much value is placed on gold in the Star Wars, unless it is in the EU. But that is assuming that only rare technology or very specific currencies are the only things worth trading for. Even once advantageous technologies are acquired, Imperial surplus, and cheap production capabilities can offer a lot for trade opportunities. Legions of mass produced droids, or even living slaves. Mass produced hyperdrives. I'm sure Star Wars industry can produce them faster and cheaper than trying to reverse engineer some, then tool up and build new ones. New trade routes and shipping arrangements opened up, remember TNG "The Price." Even raw materials. Not only rare materials have value, even replicators need raw material. If Star Wars' enterprises can provide a large quantity of mundane, but needed materials at a cut rate compared to the competition, they will get the business.

Lucky wrote:
This argument would have some bite if we didn't have 5/6 seasons of Star Wars: The Clone Wars on top of 6 movies to draw from. We see the best Star Wars has, and we know they have their "creme de la creme" of Star Wars during the Clone Wars


Yes, but we mostly have the "creme de la creme" of Jedi, politicians and soldiers. The point I was addressing was that so many episodes of Trek show scientists pushing their state-of-the-art ships to the limit, working the impossible at the fuzzy limit of(and beyond) the laws of physics. Generally, Star War's shiniest stars are pushing their knowledge of the Force, military unconventionality, or testing personal resolve. Of course Trek has that too, but since most Star Wars references don't show exotic technology pushed to the limit, beyond normal "make the bad guy go boom," it's easy to assume they don't have it. Oh, and as I stated earlier, we do still see some crazy tech in Star Wars:
Darth Spock wrote:
Still, the more NCIS type episodes tended to give us stuff like cell phones with DNA scanners, little bots that perform major, on the fly body alterations, exotic chemicals that alter certain alien's bodies to enable them to survive contact with deadly ray shields, wearable holographic disguises, long abandoned warehouses still stocked with fancy nanodroids that can turn a guy into a stealthy bomb, and holographic programs that can generate accurate, full scale, immersive recreations of complex disasters based on security recordings.

Not to mention the more "mundane" technology that is insanely common. Like the fact that pretty much anybody can trot down and buy themselves an interstellar starship, droid laborers are as common as PC's, and that a "creme de la creme" Jedi-to-be could scavenge parts for both a functioning droid and high end racing machine from the local junkyard, and assemble these things in his well equipped workshop off of his slave quarters. You see what I'm driving at. I don't live near a particle accelerator, but the number of "disposable" microchip pocket calculators in my house says something about the technological maturity of this society. To summarize again, pushing science and the laws of physics to the limit is a recurring plot point in Star Trek, not so much in Star Wars, but that doesn't automatically mean they are deficient in this manner.

Lucky wrote:
Darth Spock wrote:
Palpatine is evil, to put it simply.

That doesn't mean you start invading every inhabited system that isn't a part of your empire before you have the numbers to do it. Insane does not equal evil


That was my response to this:
Lucky wrote:
The Empire was ludicrously over extended to the point where blowing up planets where the problems were peaceful protests and white collar crime carried out by known parties was seen as a viable option


I meant that he began blowing up planets, not as a last resort, but because he expected it to be an expedient way to cow the remaining populace into submission, regardless of how morally bankrupt the action was.

Lucky wrote:
Which was needed simply to police the area the Republic already controlled, and may not have been a large enough force for the job. Invading your neighbors when you don't have full control of your own territory is over extending your forces


Ho ho, I agree, actually. In fact, I believe I even said something to that effect earlier:
Darth Spock wrote:
After all this, I do agree that the Empire charging in to the Federation would be folly. I can just see the Empire trying to drag its heavy ass across the Federation while maintaining secure supply lines.

Well, not quite, I see. Still, I agree, as things stand, an open invasion of the Alpha/Beta quadrants of the Milky Way is bound to lead to the loss of one, the other, or both Galaxies. My arguments here are more with regard to the idea that technologically the Empire would get curb stomped in any engagement, not that they are so powerful they can waltz right in and take over a whole other galaxy. The logistic and political problems of such an engagement probably would tear the Empire apart from the inside. My point here is that such a defeat is not the same as charging in, guns blazing, only to get absolutely slaughtered on the front-lines. A good example would be the Dominion, who, under their own power, most likely could have won the war, were it not a number of key developments, including what amounts to divine intervention on the part of the wormhole prophets. Compare this to the Cardassians, who in no way could ever hope to actually conquer the Federation on their own.

Lucky wrote:
No, the Death Stars were built because the emperor doesn't want rebellions of any sort. He even risked his own life in order to act as bait in Return of the Jedi do to not wanting rebels. He never wanted a rebellion.


I slightly disagree. I'd say he didn't want any strong, organized rebellions. Other than that, I doubt he cared. In fact, some unrest could be helpful, he would need some reason to keep the military up, new territory to conquer, etc.

Lucky wrote:
1) A Death Star would be unbeatable by his own fleet.

2) In order to control a large area, you need a large fleet to police it. You can't control 100,000 to 1,000,000 star systems with one ship, or even a few thousand or so.

3) The rebels had sympathizers do to the fact the Empire was invading planets, and then making a point to make a general ass of itself. Heck, the rebels existed do to the Empire's agents being corrupt jerks more so then the invasions.


1) As he would want it, and he no doubt had originally planned to inhabit the 1st DS after disbanding the senate in ANH, but it was destroyed. Had RotJ followed his plan, he probably never would have left.

2) In addition to the DS terror weapon, the Imperial fleet would likely have remained intact.

3) I won't argue that. I agree heartily.

Lucky wrote:
1) Not to be rude, but this is rather assuming because replicators are literally household appliances in the United Federation of Planets, and Sisko was tasked with dropping some off at AR-558. They often come as small as modern microwave ovens with computer and power source included it seems.


It is hard to prove that replicators aren't terribly common, we don't see much civilian life. But I did actually double check this before I posted my comment earlier. Looking at the example in TNG: The Survivors, a replicator was provided without question. It could be said that the Uxbridge's chose not to keep one of their own accord, but under the circumstances, I got the distinct impression that Picard and company thought it to be a needed, uncommon piece of equipment, rather than a common appliance. In TNG Who Watches the Watchers, the Enterprise needed to replicate replacement parts for the reactor. The seemingly well equipped scientific team seemed to lack this capacity themselves. Then, of course there a few glimpses of civilian life on Earth and a few other places, such as Sisko's Creole Kitchen, and the persistence of agriculture and mineral mining, which seem to indicate that replicators aren't just sitting around in every house. More likely, if anything, they are available in centralized locations, so as to serve the community as a whole, for wants not readily available through normal channels.

Lucky wrote:
2) If they got their heads out of their asses, and stopped building stupid stuff like Death Stars and Coruscant; the Republic or the Empire could be post-scarcity in every way that matters.


Agreed, except in that, it appeared that before the war, members of the Republic did pretty much have everything that mattered. Although the Trade Federation's greed, and the opening problem concerning taxation of the trade routes seem to indicate a problem was already brewing. So yes, bureaucracy FTL.

Lucky wrote:
1) In which case Palpi very likely just gave the Federation and anyone else from Star Trek hyper-drives purely from the sensor data.

2) There really isn't much Star Wars has to trade Star Trek, and once a Star trek faction has traded for the few gems of Star Wars tech they will no longer need to trade.


Oops. I already kind of covered this earlier. To recap, SW's mass production capabilities, bulk delivery of raw materials, and being able to grant access to new trade routes are all viable resources.

Lucky wrote:
And yet humans are a minority in the Federation, and entire ships are crewed by non-humans for various reasons. Just because human crewed ships may hangout near the Klingon/Federation border means little.


Granted, this is a point I've pondered myself before. It is possible that the region of space typically shown to the audience are in predominately human territory. Even so, humans seem to have a seemingly disproportionate level of influence in the Federation, right down to having the capitol on Earth.

Lucky wrote:
Palpatine is stupid and reckless, and is greatly over estimated do to dealing with idiots who never bother to actually investigate. When your plans require PIS to work, you aren't very good.

Darth Spock wrote:
He would no doubt quickly work to supply and inflame the Maquis, and any other rogue groups he could find.

Palpatine has nothing he can give them that they would need or want

Darth Spock wrote:
The Klingons seem always to be on the verge of civil war,

And if that was true then there would be no Klingon empire, and when they find out about his clumsy plot he's going to have some rather big problems on his hands.

Darth Spock wrote:
the Romulans love a good conspiracy,

If it benefits them, but they aren't going to trust Palpatine, and he has very little to offer. Palpatine doesn't do too well when he doesn't have PIS on his side.

If you haven't noticed, all of Palpatine's pawns and enemies were kind of the too stupid to live type.

Darth Spock wrote:
and the Cardassians just need some encouragement to renew hostilities.

No, after TNG: The Wounded, the Cardassians realized the Federation could crush them with basically one ship if they wanted to, and the Carassians aren't the too stupid to live Trade Federation.

Anything that Palpatine could give that would get the Cardassians to attack the Federation would be too easily traced back to him.


Well, to be brief, yup, Palpy is nuts yes, but I stand by most of those assertions. Trek villains are worthy of a few Darwin awards themselves. The Carddies did renew hostilities only 2 years later, during the Chain of Command episodes. They also were conned into launching a preemptive strike against the Dominion, before later joining them.
The Romulans are slow to move, and probably wouldn't be easily goaded into open war, but, they were tricked into launching a disastrous attack against the Dominion.
The Klingons don't even need to be tricked, Palpatine needs only learn who's gunning for the throne and throw some raw materials their way.
The Maquis will take any help they can get, be it fuel, explosives, poison, more ships period.
Granted, you're right, a lot of these things could be traced back to the Star Wars Galaxy, but, Palpatine would just blame the rebels, or smugglers, or simply lay the blame directly on the Trek-side users, tapping the black market, without going into any details.

Lucky wrote:
PIS can be rather painful at times in Star Wars.>_<


I ain't even gonna argue with that, it's too true. But, it's true in most fictional settings....


Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:02 am
Profile
Jedi Master

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Posts: 2239
Reply with quote
Darth Spock wrote:
Actually, I recall Han and Chewie were in the back trying to fix the hyperdrive, Leia was the one in the driver seat, and I'm not sure how experienced a pilot she is. I'd say all her attention was on the Imperials hammering at their butt anyway.

Someone being in the cockpit in no way explains a lack of warning about the asteroids.

Darth Spock wrote:
After the war broke out, yes, the supply of basic needs was pathetic. However, I don't recall Naboo or Pantora lacking food or water. Mandalore, judging from dialogue and the appearance of the planet from orbit, looked to be struggling to resuscitate a dead world that had been devastated, possibly even glassed, during ancient wars. Ryloth was in the middle of active hostilities with the CIS in the dominant position, and putting the squeeze on all available resources.

Naboo during Episode 1. was running out of food, but is green.

Mandalore could have easily imported water by the glacier before the Clone Wars ever happened, and it was neutral during the war, but instead they import premixed soft drinks.

Ryloth is just a baron waste before thew war.

Darth Spock wrote:
I'll buy that, but, the Hutts had no trouble doing business with Republic, and seemed to be managing just fine during the Empire's reign, in spite of the damage done by Maul's plot during the Clone Wars. The Ferengi likely recognized that the Dominion would not be inclined to leave them to their own commercial devices once they were the lord governors overseeing their new territory. The *wink wink, nudge nudge* shady business dealings the Empire is all to happy to engage in would likely look appealing to the Ferengi, compared to the more communistic UFoP ideology, which openly looks down on the Ferengi capitalist arrangement. There are other factions as well, don't forget the Son'a, who happily got in bed with the Dominion and Starfleet.

1) The Federation is not communist, but rather something different and likely varies depending on the planet as we often hear of people owning property, running private for profit businesses and making purchases.

2) The Dominion was/is rather totalitarian, but they were playing extra nice to get a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant, and are basically lawful. None of that can be said for the Empire which was created by the evils for the evils.

You can live a reasonably happy life in the Dominion, but the Empire was created to be unpleasant.

Darth Spock wrote:
Well, I don't know how much value is placed on gold in the Star Wars, unless it is in the EU. But that is assuming that only rare technology or very specific currencies are the only things worth trading for. Even once advantageous technologies are acquired, Imperial surplus, and cheap production capabilities can offer a lot for trade opportunities. Legions of mass produced droids, or even living slaves. Mass produced hyperdrives. I'm sure Star Wars industry can produce them faster and cheaper than trying to reverse engineer some, then tool up and build new ones. New trade routes and shipping arrangements opened up, remember TNG "The Price." Even raw materials. Not only rare materials have value, even replicators need raw material. If Star Wars' enterprises can provide a large quantity of mundane, but needed materials at a cut rate compared to the competition, they will get the business.

1) Asteroid mining alone makes gold's value drop a lot, but then we never see asteroid mining in Star Wars. 433 Eros seems to contain a lot of gold for example. The value drops further when you can casually transmute matter into any stable element, and even further when you have energy to matter devices like replicators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

2) Replicators only require energy to work in order to produce the common stable real world elements. last time I checked. It is only the magical fictional stuff that is traded which the Empire really have nothing beyond perhaps Kyber Crystals.

3) Many groups like the Federation would reverse engineer a ship from Star Wars for no other reason then pure academic knowledge.

4) I see no reason to think that the Empire or any power in Star Wars could produce thing more cheaply or in greater numbers then the demand then a Star Trek power.baring some exotic bottle neck.

Darth Spock wrote:
Yes, but we mostly have the "creme de la creme" of Jedi, politicians and soldiers. The point I was addressing was that so many episodes of Trek show scientists pushing their state-of-the-art ships to the limit, working the impossible at the fuzzy limit of(and beyond) the laws of physics. Generally, Star War's shiniest stars are pushing their knowledge of the Force, military unconventionality, or testing personal resolve. Of course Trek has that too, but since most Star Wars references don't show exotic technology pushed to the limit, beyond normal "make the bad guy go boom," it's easy to assume they don't have it. Oh, and as I stated earlier, we do still see some crazy tech in Star Wars:
Darth Spock wrote:
Still, the more NCIS type episodes tended to give us stuff like cell phones with DNA scanners, little bots that perform major, on the fly body alterations, exotic chemicals that alter certain alien's bodies to enable them to survive contact with deadly ray shields, wearable holographic disguises, long abandoned warehouses still stocked with fancy nanodroids that can turn a guy into a stealthy bomb, and holographic programs that can generate accurate, full scale, immersive recreations of complex disasters based on security recordings.



Darth Spock wrote:
Not to mention the more "mundane" technology that is insanely common. Like the fact that pretty much anybody can trot down and buy themselves an interstellar starship, droid laborers are as common as PC's, and that a "creme de la creme" Jedi-to-be could scavenge parts for both a functioning droid and high end racing machine from the local junkyard, and assemble these things in his well equipped workshop off of his slave quarters. You see what I'm driving at. I don't live near a particle accelerator, but the number of "disposable" microchip pocket calculators in my house says something about the technological maturity of this society. To summarize again, pushing science and the laws of physics to the limit is a recurring plot point in Star Trek, not so much in Star Wars, but that doesn't automatically mean they are deficient in this manner.

1) As far as I know anyone can purchase their own ship in the Federation if they want to, and we saw Quark did during DS9.

2) The Federation could have droid slaves that are better then an R2 astromech if they wanted to, but they don't want slaves. I always wished I could have an Exocomp as a pet or a roommate.

I'd suggest you look up the episode where they get rid of Moriarty.

3) In star Teen no one bats an eye at some teenager having a lump of anti-matter in his room, or building a hand held tractor beam, or having a type-1 phaser, or having a tricorder.

I may be misunderstanding something

Darth Spock wrote:
I meant that he began blowing up planets, not as a last resort, but because he expected it to be an expedient way to cow the remaining populace into submission, regardless of how morally bankrupt the action was.

No, blowing up planets was far from plan A even in the Empire's play book.

Darth Spock wrote:
Well, not quite, I see. Still, I agree, as things stand, an open invasion of the Alpha/Beta quadrants of the Milky Way is bound to lead to the loss of one, the other, or both Galaxies. My arguments here are more with regard to the idea that technologically the Empire would get curb stomped in any engagement, not that they are so powerful they can waltz right in and take over a whole other galaxy. The logistic and political problems of such an engagement probably would tear the Empire apart from the inside. My point here is that such a defeat is not the same as charging in, guns blazing, only to get absolutely slaughtered on the front-lines. A good example would be the Dominion, who, under their own power, most likely could have won the war, were it not a number of key developments, including what amounts to divine intervention on the part of the wormhole prophets. Compare this to the Cardassians, who in no way could ever hope to actually conquer the Federation on their own.

1) The Dominion did so well because they had two weapons that ignored standard defenses, and one of those weapons could one shot any ship.

2) In TNG: The Wounded the Cardassians are shown to have greatly underestimated the Federation.

In TNG: Chain of Command they had planned to capture the E-D with weight of numbers.

They join the Dominion without realizing what they are joining.

Darth Spock wrote:
1) As he would want it, and he no doubt had originally planned to inhabit the 1st DS after disbanding the senate in ANH, but it was destroyed. Had RotJ followed his plan, he probably never would have left.

2) In addition to the DS terror weapon, the Imperial fleet would likely have remained intact.

Sadly this just leads to the destruction of the Death Star even if the weakness is never found as you just need a ship with a hyperdrive to ram the Deathstar.

Darth Spock wrote:
It is hard to prove that replicators aren't terribly common, we don't see much civilian life. But I did actually double check this before I posted my comment earlier. Looking at the example in TNG: The Survivors, a replicator was provided without question. It could be said that the Uxbridge's chose not to keep one of their own accord, but under the circumstances, I got the distinct impression that Picard and company thought it to be a needed, uncommon piece of equipment, rather than a common appliance. In TNG Who Watches the Watchers, the Enterprise needed to replicate replacement parts for the reactor. The seemingly well equipped scientific team seemed to lack this capacity themselves. Then, of course there a few glimpses of civilian life on Earth and a few other places, such as Sisko's Creole Kitchen, and the persistence of agriculture and mineral mining, which seem to indicate that replicators aren't just sitting around in every house. More likely, if anything, they are available in centralized locations, so as to serve the community as a whole, for wants not readily available through normal channels.

This is what I was talking about:
Franchise: Star Trek
Series: The Next Generation
Season: 4
Episode: 2
Title: Family wrote:
PICARD: Leave it to Robert to find the best cook in France, then marry her. 


ROBERT: Yes, but sadly cooking is becoming a lost art. That's your wretched technology again. 


MARIE: Robert and I have had more than a few discussions about getting a replicator in the house. 


PICARD: I remember the same discussions between mother and father. 


ROBERT: Father understood better than anybody else the danger of losing those values which we hold most precious. 


PICARD: I don't see that you have to lose anything just by adding a convenience. 


ROBERT: You wouldn't, but in my view, life is already too convenient.


Darth Spock wrote:
Agreed, except in that, it appeared that before the war, members of the Republic did pretty much have everything that mattered. Although the Trade Federation's greed, and the opening problem concerning taxation of the trade routes seem to indicate a problem was already brewing. So yes, bureaucracy FTL.

I'd have to disagree on the grounds that Padme can't pay her staff a living wage. If a senator like Padme can't pay her staff a living wage then Star wars was never close to Post-scarcity_economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy

I personally don't buy the idea that the Trade Federation was acting purely out of greed in Episode 1 and later. Just blockading Naboo would cost a lot, and carry a large risk.

Darth Spock wrote:
Oops. I already kind of covered this earlier. To recap, SW's mass production capabilities, bulk delivery of raw materials, and being able to grant access to new trade routes are all viable resources.

Out dated mass production capabilities that no one cares about.

Bulk transport is something Star trek already has plenty of.

Resources no one cares about because they aren't those rare magical things.

Darth Spock wrote:
Granted, this is a point I've pondered myself before. It is possible that the region of space typically shown to the audience are in predominately human territory. Even so, humans seem to have a seemingly disproportionate level of influence in the Federation, right down to having the capitol on Earth.

A large number of races look externally the same, and that means that the human over there might not be human.

Earth being the capital makes perfect sense if you understand the history of the founding members of the UFP. Basically you had 4 groups, and the humans were the ones who were on good terms with all parties, and then there is the likely hood of Earth having a climate that suits the largest number of races.

Darth Spock wrote:
Well, to be brief, yup, Palpy is nuts yes, but I stand by most of those assertions. Trek villains are worthy of a few Darwin awards themselves. The Carddies did renew hostilities only 2 years later, during the Chain of Command episodes. They also were conned into launching a preemptive strike against the Dominion, before later joining them.

They only failed in Chain of command do to an ass pull on the Federation's part. Had things gone remotely as planned they would have captued the E-D.

The Cardassian government never attack the Dominion in The Die is Cast.

Darth Spock wrote:
The Romulans are slow to move, and probably wouldn't be easily goaded into open war, but, they were tricked into launching a disastrous attack against the Dominion.
that's just what the Romulans want you to think.


Darth Spock wrote:
The Klingons don't even need to be tricked, Palpatine needs only learn who's gunning for the throne and throw some raw materials their way.
And yet this never seems to be a problem.

What raw materials can the Empire offer that the Klingons would care about?

Darth Spock wrote:
The Maquis will take any help they can get, be it fuel, explosives, poison, more ships period.

Fuel is not an issue for the Maquis do to it being hydrogen.

Explosives and poisons are things the Maquis have a glut of.

What good are sub-light craft that will go down to a rifle?

Darth Spock wrote:
Granted, you're right, a lot of these things could be traced back to the Star Wars Galaxy, but, Palpatine would just blame the rebels, or smugglers, or simply lay the blame directly on the Trek-side users, tapping the black market, without going into any details.

Most fictional settings don't have a magical force causing it in a ham fisted manner.

Think of how different Episode 1
The Trade Federation blockades and invades Naboo without ever explaining why to the Naboo first. The Naboo might have happily gone along with the plan.
The Trade Federation tries to murder Republic agents for no reason.
The Trade Federation pointlessly loots Naboo and other cartoon villainy.
The trade Federation tries to destroy all escaping craft despite not knowing who is on the ship, and needing the princess alive.
No one recognizes Palpatine as the Sith lord in the holo videos.

Episode 2 through 3
You have the Jedi never run basic non-invasive tests on the clones to check their health, or take a look at the bio-chip. No bio-chip = no order 66 working.
No one ever questioned why all the clones match a guy who worked for Dooku?
Why were the cloners working for the Sith?
Why didn't the cloners talk to the Jedi sooner? 10 years with no contact with your supposed employer seems odd.
B-1s and likely B-2s are programed to be bad shots.


Episode 4
R2 and C3-P0 escape because some idiot forgets there is a very common robot slave race.
Tarken refuses to use his anti-fighter weapons.
Han, Leia, R2-D2, and Chewbacca don't think the Empire let them escape.
The Falcon flies straight to the rebel base at Yavin-IV without stopping and checking for tracking devices.
Someone put an exhaust ports that don't do anything on the Deathstar
No one thought to just hyper-drive a ship into the Deathstar despite Han stating how nasty that is.

Episode 5
Luke runs off untrained to fight Vader
Luke doesn't even try to cut open a door with his lightsaber
No one checks the back of the Stardestroyer's bridge tower when the Falcon disappears.

Epsode 6
The idiot Rebels don't realize they are being jammed until Lando points it out, and even then they argue a little.
No one thinks to crash a ship while entering hyperspace as a means to destroy the shield generator.
No one thinks to crash a ship entering hyperspace into the Deathstar II in order to destroy it.
The AT-ST pilots who open the hatch so Chewy can throw them out.
A bleep load of stuff on the ground at Endor.


Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:51 am
Profile
Admiral
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Posts: 6862
Location: Paradise Mountain
Reply with quote
Lucky wrote:
This argument would have some bite if we didn't have 5/6 seasons of Star Wars: The Clone Wars on top of 6 movies to draw from. We see the best Star Wars has, and we know they have their "creme de la creme" of Star Wars during the Clone Wars, and technology does not change all that much between the O.T. and P.T., but then one wouldn't expect a huge jump in capability for the average ship in Star Trek in a time frame of about 20ish years either


The problem, for SW, being that TCWS was CGI-cartoon, with all laziness and nonsense you'd find in that. It doesn't even want or need to appear realistic.
So it's always troublesome to see people really look in detail into such material because it really does not present itself favourably to our usual scrutiny.

I stopped caring since day one when CIS tanks couldn't shoot down large dried up alga trees or when droids and troopers couldn't hit shit at a range of ten meters.
You can only extract global or rough impressions, plus the narrative, out of TCWS, and that's all. Period.

Quote:
Darth Spock wrote:
He then used the rebellion to justify continued military development until the Death Star could be completed, at which point he would have the ultimate weapon of terror to threaten would be dissenters with.

No, the Death Stars were built because the emperor doesn't want rebellions of any sort. He even risked his own life in order to act as bait in Return of the Jedi do to not wanting rebels. He never wanted a rebellion.


That's never said in SW. We just see the Death Stars and that's all.
My own little theory is that it was a clever way for Palpatine to literally suck up resources and money across the entire Empire and created heaps of debt.
Once the reality of the 1st DS was made public, he didn't even need to limit the process the second time. Because aside from the exhaust porthole weakness, the first design already was more than enough. More than anything the Rebels ever amassed in one point. More than anything I've seen the Republic/GAR assemble at once either (battle of Coruscant, with thousands of Acclamators or Venators, would still fall short of the first battle station). A mere update to gap the weaknesses of the system, also by adding more failsafes, adding close in defense systems, more light combat crafts and even perhaps reduce the volume a notch cause it really was overkill, that would have been plain enough to still blow planets up.

However, if you want another logical reason for making the DSII tougher, it's because the plans of the first one were in the Rebels' hands. And as such, they had all the information they needed to know how to build their own superlaser mounted weapon. Palpatine might have considered this escalation of destruction and thought that if the new DS was to face a kind of superlaser, it'd better be tough enough as to tank one or two shots, rotate and shoot back.

Now, with the TCWS out having revealed the existence of nanobots and all that, it might be a good thing to consider their use in the construction of the Death Stars, and perhaps literally have the Death Star be built around unique pieces of advanced tech capable of turning large amounts of energy into matter, and perhaps usable once. Perhaps even Sith holocrons could be involved, making their unique use even more straight forward in the creation of those battle stations.
This would surely help explain the disparity between the massive industrial behemoths and the rest of the imperial navy's overall size.



Quote:
Darth Spock wrote:
Palpatine being, well, Palpatine, who is actually Sidious the insidious, I can just see him establishing trade relations, cultural integration, and demonstrations of the magical wonder of hyperspace travel (the slowest and oldest around, of course.)

1) In which case Palpi very likely just gave the Federation and anyone else from Star Trek hyper-drives purely from the sensor data.


Indeed, but the slowest form. If he's about engaging trade and would be exploring uncharted space, his imperial fleet couldn't max out their hyperdrives anyway.
Therefore, he could easily exchange data for rather so-so FTL drives, with the main advantage that they don't represent ecological disasters contrary to warp drives which are massively regulated, in fact.

Best hyperdrives, control of repair centers and most efficient hyperlanes (possibly secret ones), wouldn't need to be a part of the deal.

Quote:
2) There really isn't much Star Wars has to trade Star Trek, and once a Star trek faction has traded for the few gems of Star Wars tech they will no longer need to trade.


TCWS have introduced a mastery of holograms which, as someone said, was like it was Voyager on acids.
Such a level of technological capability means a shit lot regarding mastery of light, "hardening" it, and all sorts of quantum stuff, meaning that they'd have not so much issues at understanding computers in Trek either.

When you can control the dual wave/particle light itself to this level, I don't think being able to aim a megaton laser over a range of thousands of kilometers would be such a problem for the biggest yet conventional weaponized naval assets.

Besides, wouldn't Star Wars possess a variety of exotic materials that the Ferengi would love to have? At least first hand, and perhaps go as far as to put a patent on the Trek side of this so no one would have a right to replicate the materials that might get properly scanned?

Quote:
Darth Spock wrote:
The predominately human Federation would be a preferable base for the specist Empire. Furthermore, the Federation, for all its "tolerance" of other species, the clear dominance of humans in Starfleet, and that Azetbur would say that "The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club" in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, indicates the Federation wouldn't be immune to favoring being allies with a "human" organization, especially with the promise of gaining access to a distant galaxy.

And yet humans are a minority in the Federation, and entire ships are crewed by non-humans for various reasons. Just because human crewed ships may hangout near the Klingon/Federation border means little.


Odd. All info I've seen in my lifetime about UFP outposts seemed to largely involve human settlements, and the views of crowds in pre-JJAverse shift didn't throw an image of the humans being a minority there, quite the contrary.
If mankind is the minority, then why the hell do they have all the headquarters and all that, despite the fact that they were some of the less advanced species out there, btw?

Quote:
Darth Spock wrote:
While the Dominion Changelings had a huge infiltration advantage, Palpatine's guile shouldn't be underestimated.

Palpatine is stupid and reckless, and is greatly over estimated do to dealing with idiots who never bother to actually investigate. When your plans require PIS to work, you aren't very good.


Uh what? Stupid and reckless, I don't get that vibe from the movies.
The guy is a super plotter and perhaps uses the Force to help himself there. He's the kind of trickster who would make Tzeentch very proud, only for what he achieved on a galactic scale in such a short timeframe.

Quote:
Darth Spock wrote:
He would no doubt quickly work to supply and inflame the Maquis, and any other rogue groups he could find.

Palpatine has nothing he can give them that they would need or want


I didn't get the impression that the Maki were that massively equipped either.
Now, iirc, the Maquis were mainly a problem to the Cardassians, and these guys weren't friendly towards the Federation.
Palpatine would just have to reinforce the side which seems to get too underpowered, so it could remain a shard in the opposite camp's foot.
This way they'd be grinding their forces away.

Quote:
Darth Spock wrote:
The Klingons seem always to be on the verge of civil war,

And if that was true then there would be no Klingon empire, and when they find out about his clumsy plot he's going to have some rather big problems on his hands.

Darth Spock wrote:
the Romulans love a good conspiracy,

If it benefits them, but they aren't going to trust Palpatine, and he has very little to offer. Palpatine doesn't do too well when he doesn't have PIS on his side.

If you haven't noticed, all of Palpatine's pawns and enemies were kind of the too stupid to live type.


That's a rather wide generalization. Not all Imperial officers would be cretins, and Tarkin hardly seemed to be a total space idiot either.
As for the Trade Federation, they were mainly merchants with some kind of naval force and clearly didn't seem at ease to deal with proper warfare.
They even had the same droids run ship controls and fight on the ground. They were that cheap. Palpatine just pushed them into a situation they couldn't handle, and which was enough to start a dramatic chain of events.

Quote:
Darth Spock wrote:
and the Cardassians just need some encouragement to renew hostilities.

No, after TNG: The Wounded, the Cardassians realized the Federation could crush them with basically one ship if they wanted to, and the Carassians aren't the too stupid to live Trade Federation.

Anything that Palpatine could give that would get the Cardassians to attack the Federation would be too easily traced back to him.


That is true. But then it all depends when he could use this card.


Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:11 am
Profile
Admiral
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Posts: 6862
Location: Paradise Mountain
Reply with quote
Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Basic radars can detect asteroids, especially at close range.
The case of an asteroid hitting an ISD would most likely be well explained by said asteroid having been largely masked until whatever masked it moved out of the way.

The first warning Han got that he was flying into a dense asteroid field was asteroids hitting his ship. Star Wars sensor tech often underperforms real world stuff.


Not spotting asteroids with active scanners is close to impossible. Active scanner is so simple that it cannot go wrong at that level, it will just bounce off anything, especially dumb rocks, and indicate to the ship that there's a wall of trouble ahead.
If those rocks weren't spotted soon enough (and Leia was too busy looking at their fingernails), we'd have to look for good explanations. Like:
- Deactivcated active scanning to reduce profile signature with Imps on your tail might explain things.
- Active scanners focused on detecting anything imperial and ignoring anything else would also be logical.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Where do we get this confirmation?
The Empire took on where the Republic left and ARC fighters didn't appear out fashioned.
It seems the Empire made a choice in phasing out a given type of starfighter for another kind.
Still, the Empire had its main contractor developping TIE variants which were meant to offer more versatility. Notably crafts with shields, hyperdrives, more weapons and longer operation ranges.

A-Wings, B-Wings, and X-Wings are a generation younger then the standard T.I.E. and the same generation as the T.I.E. Interceptor and T.I.E. Defender.


Removing features on a given series of product wouldn't mean the overall technological level dropped.
For what it's worth, the ARC fighters don't look like they'd be outperformed by the other crafts.
If anything, the Rebel fighters look really aged and overused. Probably jack of all trades, built more sturdy because Rebels couldn't afford more.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Klingons didn't think that way until peace treaties, much later.
Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion and other groups I might forget, they didn't seem to have a problem with being plain hostile.

The Klingons and Romulans only fought minor border skirmishes with the Federation, and no side tried a General Order 24


GO24 is an extreme, Lucky. Your skirmishes are plain acts of war, with entire crews and perhaps outposts being killed and destroyed.
If you take a look at modern news, you'd see no one takes that stuff lightly. More precisely, one side is always careful to use proxies. US/Israel uses local EU forces in Europe, as seen lately with the Ukrainian conflict, being careful not directly launching US tanks against Russian tanks, Israel engages directly against small fish in its own region so no one gives a shit, Iran arms Hezbollah, the Saudi arms a bit of any kind of agitated Arab fundies (lately IS iirc), so nothing really direct enough.

But in your examples, you have UFP clashing with the Klingon Empire directly, and I don't recall the Klingons to open rather friendly and well reasoned. If anything, their empire was established through sheer brute force and maintain that way with a layer of honour ughr ughr on top of it.

Romulans? They appear to be snakes.


Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Is it what the new show demonstrates? Because from the movies alone, there's not such a thing to infer. In fact, the Empire is so vast that it can allow itself to count crappy worlds alongside medium and well developped ones.

One could project Earth and assume that its distribution of wealth and technology is similar to that of the Empire.
It wouldn't be a big deal.

We are talking about Naboo, Pantora, Mandalore, Ryloth type planets needing to import food and water rather then random mud hole 5.


Naboo is super fertile. It's odd.
But I don't see how they could import anything if they can't even retain their main production for themselves.
If at least they had been in a situation like say, Japanese or Chinese, and exchange it for high tech or cheap labour.
The problem is that they do so because they don't seem able to produce enough on their own, which should never ever happen with damned Naboo.
Does Naboo really have to import water???
That's insane. If this were true, they'd simply have nothing left to trade with in order to import prime consumables.
It makes no sense to me.

So on this I'm sorry but I'm going to have ask for solid quotes for all worlds mentionned, or at least a very good sample.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Both sides have to solve problems in the mapping. The pressure is due to all the factors I listed in my post.

It took thousands of years for hyper-lanes to be mapped, and even then they are still finding new ones that were right in front of them.


When was it said they needed so much time to map out most of the galaxy's routes? We don't even know how they're established nor what they really are.

Quote:
It took a few days to enhance the maps on Voyager, and they cut something like 5 years off their trip with a stellar cartography lab.


You're sounding like saying they went much faster once they were basically handed a map and a proper route to follow.
Besides, 5 years ain't that much, nah? Wasn't the original length more like 75 years anyway? Or more?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
When we're dealing with an Empire which knows its chorus about plasma weapons and beams and all sorts of advanced bits of technology and, I think, even a handful of secret projects involving fancier bits of tech, the Empire can count on a certain capacity to retroengineer some tech.
For instance, how long did it take the UFP to discover and implement its first phaser banks?
Not much long. If anything, based on ENT, a small crew of men did it.
The idea that the Empire wouldn't count geniuses and couldn't use its vast resources to find people to reproduce the same kind of evolution, if given a couple hints (like a piece of tech to study) is quite absurd.

Worst of all, the Empire doesn't need to have state of the art tech, just a base start to fill the gap. That would easily happen by acquiring the details of a tech that would be outdated. The idea that a 50 years old piece of phaser wouldn't be explained on some interstellar wiki within the UFP is hardly believable.


1) And they will magically have the tools needed to make use of the information because?


Because the tools are not secret? Do we even hold secret the tools needed to build tech already one decade old?

Quote:
Simply being advanced in one area in no way shows being advanced in all areas needed to make use of a design or theory in a practical manner. The Empire will need non-standard tools to build and maintain Star Trek technologies as hydro-spanners/screwdrivers aren't going to cut it.


Then again they'd build them and try to acquire the most advanced ones. The problem with the post-scarcity thing in Trek is that like the best stuff... is basically just one knee bending from hand's reach.

Quote:
This isn't to say everything will be alien to the other faction as things like hyper-space and sub-space are very similar if not directly related, but even if you understand the underlying physics does not mean you can build the thing.


If you get the physics, plans for some models and plans for the tools, which again I don't see being kept secret except for the most sensitive latest stuff, then you do get a chance to reduce the gap rather quicly.
This is where the UFP's self sense of superiority in ethics and openness could hit it in the buttocks.

Quote:
Then you have different methods of doing the same thing. Both Star Wars and Star Trek have fusion reactors, but the designs are drastically different

2) I think you are over estimating the usefulness of the average online article.


It was short hand example. You can buy the latest hard science books on Internet and everything preceding them.
Within the UFP, you don't even have to buy it! Hallelujah!
Open bar!

Quote:
3) Even outdated Star trek technology would require things like special discharge crystals, and some sources state they are room temperture super-conductoring crystals.


Considering the Death Star and the discharge of a super beam that fucks planets doubled by some funky hyperspace related effects, I think superconducting thingamajicks won't be much of a problem.
Perhaps not as good, certainly, but they're most definitely there.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
And to top it all, this does not include Trek scientists working for the Empire, from non-affiliated ones to enemies of the UFP finding an opportunity here. Or even scientists who, within the UFP's confines, felt they didn't have enough liberties to... experiment. That's the advantage presented by a more ruthless empire.

Except the Empire has no way to get scientists to work for them in any numbers that matter,


I most certainly disagree. One scientist can change the course of an entire war.

Quote:
and lack the tools the scientists would need.


Because obviously those scientists would come with empty hands and would have no idea of where to get their hands on such tools. I mean, they'd probably pick some of those "ubiquitous" replicators with them, just because they are that practical. Literally handing them to the Empire.

Quote:
Really the Empire has nothing to offer a sane Star Trek setting scientist, and you really don't want the crazies.


It has plenty to offer, even to the sane ones. Basically the whole game changes within the Empire. It gives you a nice place and you do what you want. It builds planet blasting moon sized stations. No limits. No restriction on outlawed tech or genetics!

Quote:
You really think that the Empire's enemies are going to let their best and brightest go work for the enemy?


I think that some of their scientists, regardless of their talent, but formed by the UFP so therefore having all the bases necessary to at least bridge the gap, offer a rather large potential of transfuges who are not even going to ask the UFP to do stuff they want, the way they want.
Today we have plenty of scientists who work on nice stuff, yet there are plenty on work on terrible projects, more or less given free reign by private ventures or some governments, depending on the international relations btw.

Quote:
The Star Trek side is far more likely to get defectors from the Empire.


It will swing both ways. But the Empire has more to gain.
Plus the Empire can promise a human-friendly specist environment where you don't have to eat a propaganda that spoon feeds you the beauty of having whatever green alien settle next to your home and fuck your girl. You greatly undermine the power of species' instincts.
That's probably one thing that Empire would likely support, a specist movement right on Earth if possible.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
1. To what clients? Would they dare do that against a galactic empire?

Quark and his cousin Barbo sold defective warp drive to the Tarahong government according to statements in DS9: The Nagus..


But we're not told what happened next, nor if this government had any means to retaliate, or even was capable of warp travel.

Quote:
Kira and Jadzia Dax both say greedy, misogynistic, untrustworthy little trolls who they wouldn't turn their backs to.


OK, but "Jews in Space" still don't like brute force applied against them. It's bad for health, and more importantly, bad for business. You can fool a group once, but not several times. And you're still dealing with an entire galactic empire which would hold many secrets.
Then some Ferengis might not care about antagonizing the Empire, then others might very well be concerned by such reckless decisions.

Besides, YES, as I explained earlier, probably on page 1, the Ferengi have a large advantage to gain in trading what the Empire wants: because the Empire dictates most of the market on its side, and that's basically heavens for the Ferengi, who can't create much of an artificial scarcity on the Trek side.
On the Imperial side? They will have to (and most likely, gladly will) play the dark side style capitalist game, because that's the core of their business and mentality. Easy access to everything sucks for merchants and resellers, that's the golden rule.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2. No they aren't because the Ferengi, like any ultra capitalist faction, are going to see mass potential in establishing trade within the Empire, and there, using the imperial currency will prove very, very valuable to acquire immense amounts of goods. The Ferengi will accept what allows trade.

No, the Ferengi are not soft in the head idiot like the Trade Federation, but rather more like the Hutts or the Mafia as depicted in many movies like the God Father. They aren't going to sell the Federation out to a bunch of literal Nazi Communists like the Empire.


Yeah well I don't understand the nazi communist part because they're literally two totally opposite concepts. But, anyway...
The Hutts have their little bubble, and we don't know if they can or want to expand. By the time of the Empire, you see Imperial troops on Tatooine, remember?
Did you see the Republic on Tatooine? Oh wait, no.
They have much to bring with them, those Ferengi, and they can cut themselves a nice "mobile" interstellar trade market slice within the Empire.
There is no imbecility there, it's actually the point of business.
There's a whole galactic market that still uses "printed" currency. Good!

Note, btw, that the Empire wouldn't be stupid to the point of not keeping their eyes on the Ferengi either.
That a fair claim.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
3. The Empire isn't here to sell but to acquire.

And the Empire still has to pay somehow, but they have little to nothing to pay with.


Refer to the points above.
The Empire is a dream come true for the Ferengi.

Quote:
If the Empire tries to take by force then the Ferengi military will take action, and the Ferengi government will blacklist them.


They won't need to do that, quite obviously.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
4.a. The Empire doesn't look far more hostile than the Dominion to me. If anything, the war waged by the Empire would be one of pragmatism, with the Empire not accepting any competition and to solve Palpatine's insecurities.

The Empire's strategy is cartoon villainy, and always has been. The Ferengi saw the Dominion as a bad thing for them according to Quark who was more or less the Ferengi's eyes and ears on the topic.


Maybe the Dominion was wrecking worlds and subduing populations, and used engineered slave warriors as well alongside other mercenaries which means they had no use for Ferengi's assets.
The Ferengi had little to bring, no fancy toys to sell in small parts, and the Dominion's actions most likely killed trades in several parts because of the tension and destruction of assets.
Merchants like open frontiers and zero tax. They don't like stepping across frontlines much.

As for the Empire being cartoon villainy, not really. Lord of the Rings and Mordor forces? Yes, perhaps. The Empire? Just because we saw a rather lopsided application of brute forces against Rebels, who would obviously be presented as dissenters, enemies, trouble makers, terrorists and what have you by the Imperial propaganda (which it would own so much that basically most of the population would automatically be siding with the Empire or adopting a neutral laissez-faire standpoint).
You might think as the destruction of Alderaan being over the top, but unfortunately we weren't privy to all the details before hand.

We weren't even told, but what if Alderaan had been neutered early on, with all trade routes filtered by the Empire for some years already?
What if they were already in a very bad position regarding the rest of the pathetic remains of the Senate?
After all, Vader knew that they had weapons and Leia was lying through her teeth (source: novelization).
In real world, an entire country like Iraq has been ravaged and left in shambles for less than that. So...

If anything, the Empire had far more evidence and reasons to act nasty against Alderaan (from their pow of course, they're still monsters).

So this little digression of realpolitiks aside, I don't really see any reasons to stick such a gross fairy tale filter onto SW. Surely, Disney is now producing a rather kiddy show (with that choper droid that keeps saying FUCK btw) and Darth Lucash was the one who couldn't handle the much superior Empire Strikes Back and had to introduce teddybears in the last OT movie, but the overall intrigue is just as gruesome as real world stuff.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
4.b. I'd also like absolute evidence of the claim that the Ferengi didn't sell to the Dominion at all, and any reasons to explain this.

We never hear of the Ferengi betraying the Federation, Klingons, or Romulans..

I'd like you to prove the Ferengi sold out the Federation?


Unless having an access to Ferengi paybooks, that would be hard.
It would be quicker to ask if UFP members have any restriction with selling stuff to non-UFP members.
You claim betrayal, but is there anything to betray there?

Now, while I'll be waiting for evidence for your claim, I'll still point out that the UFP is more fertile, diversified, larger and stable ground for trade.
But then again, the Empire is even MORE of that, all at once.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
4.c. Finally, there's lot to gain by trading with the Empire's worlds. I'm not even counting native resources which don't exist in Trekverse.

Not really as gold is nearly worthless in Star Trek, but a big thing in Star Wars.

Why would the Ferengi trade when they can steal and counterfeit credits, and then sell the things of value to groups with things of value like the Federation? We aren't talking about the soft in the head Trade Federation here.


Well, assuming no Ferengi gets caught by the Empire for starters (you know, we do have got some members of your family, so perhaps your Nagus guy or god isn't willing to trade, but I understand you'd be more open minded?), I'm rather sure that the Empire wouldn't be enjoying seeing those ugly bastards literally produce fake credits.
It's much more useful to trade peacefully. That's pretty much why the Ferengi are favourable to the UFP to begin with, isn't it?
The Ferengi are merchants mainly, they don't have the industrial might. They're "perfect" agents of transfer between clients within the Empire, buying crafts, consumables, gear, tech and droids in large quantity.
Heck, there would be Ferengi who would trade just because they love to trade, because their whole culture is about trading, and gladly abide by the local market's rules, even if cheating sometimes.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
5. See points made in the paragraphs above.

YOu aren't making sense in the above, and often assuming hyper-compatence for a setting where PIS is needed for almost any evil plot to work.


Not sure what PIS means.
I'm assuming normal competence. The kind that is at least necessary to build what we see in SW, especially on the imperial side.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Power and/or a lack of trust in aliens?
You only see the nice part of the UFP, which itself remains spectacularly human-centric despite its pretense on being open to many xenospecies.
Human nature is what it is, you can't erase that.
The vision of a human empire dominating an entire galaxy can be very inspiring.
If anything, you just need some humans who had rather displeasing experiences with foreign species to get set.

So, you are claiming that large groups will give everything up to become slaves?


I didn't know that being part of an Empire made you a slave.
Where is that idea coming from?

Quote:
Where are you getting the idea that the Federation is human centric?


As pointed above, most of what I see is humans. Even in places where you'd expect a massive amount of mixing (administration, academies, etc.). Not to say that quite everytime another major UFP ship was shown, no matter where it came from, it generally quite a larger quantity of human crews visible.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Empire isn't thousands of years old. What's your point?
Play devil's advacate all you want, but don't insult me like this.

I'll except you concession that the GFFA is not good R&D even when they have at least a thousand years and the resources to so it..


Careful, you might break a nail there.
The Republic stagnated at a leisure pace, the places it cared about largely pacified, and nothing to fear from local thugs lording over scumworlds.
The Empire, within its three decades of existence iirc, built two Death Stars and, by act of Palpatine, in fact introduced a whole new range of warship production like the galaxy had never seen, which it perpetuated after the fall of the Republic.
Also, the rebellion seemed to be a pretty recent thing in fact, appearing quite lately, and the Empire would have no real reason to put lots of efforts into R&D.
But let's not pretend that they were full of idiots and that there wouldn't scientists whose curiosity would suddenly be teased by the existence of new techs.
IF you've talked with engineers and scientists, you then know that they'd jump on anything new and exciting.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
1. Vader can fill the role. Emperor is only a status. The Empire collapsed because as odd as it was, its structure was struck in its very heart and both Sith fell at once.

No Vader can't just step up and fill the role of Emperor without a senate giving him the power, and Vader seems to lack the respect/fear the Emperor had.


Kid me! :D
Vader had an utterly huge stampeding amount of glory to back him up, tons of reasons to have earned far more respect than the Emperor ever had, for at the very least having been betrayed and burned by the Jedi who had been presented as traitors 24/7 on all channels, and most importantly, having led the Republic's forces to victory in the most decisive battles, liberated worlds and having defeated the CIS, who turned against the Republic. Besides, winners write history.
Palpatine gained a lot of support by simply showing that Vader, the war hero, sided with him.
Only for that, Vader would have a solid loyal support from the entire Navy and Army, down to all regiments of the Stormtroopers ranks.
Palpatine would always remain a schemy politician in the minds of all the vermine crawling at his feet.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2. It's a non argument. You're even admiting that there would also be a large number of Imperials not in "for the evils". Vader, as Anakin, believed in order, strong order that is. He hated the Hutt who were outlaws, operating on the fringes of the Republic, and who are ultimately responsible of his shitty life and his mother's death. He hated the traitors from the CIS who, from his point of view, started the war and ultimately had him take absolute measures to get things done. He also hated Jedi for the wimps they were and their incapacity to use force and power when needed. In other words, Vader has ZERO reason not to take all measures necessary to unite the galaxy against the UFP the moment the war is declared. Being "in for the evils" is rather irrelevant at that point.

Wow, your reading comprehension is better then this. Stop insulting me. I just stated the opposite.


If that's so, please restate your point in a different manner.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
What event are you talking about in particular? If you think of Alderaan, the very weapon that destroyed this planet was the result of a construction project started decades before, when the Empire was nascent.
So the use of the Death Star is pretty much the logical conclusion of putting to good use that fearsome piece of technology, not the results of some overstretch whatsoever.

If you are going to play devil's advocate, i would suggest you at least try to sound intelligent because you are being rather insulting right now.


I don't see why you're feeling insulted.
Try to argue the point please or skip.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Please provide proof of the underlined section.
His whole ascension is well structured and thought out. He pretty much single handedly organized the whole Clone Wars that engulged an entire galaxy.

Palpatine's entire plan basically required the Jedi to be idiots who don't investigate the clone army


The Jedi don't have infinite authority and the war was literally at full rage overnight. I mean it's made pretty clear in the movie that although they know something is fishy, they don't even have time to react.
The whole Republic is going at war by noon. Understand?
You think people on world #318435407 are going to ask for some lumbering administrative investigation about where those troops and ships might come from?
How could the average citizen know or even care??
Hey, let's just say that the Republic was aware of the rising tension against the CIS, which incorporated the Trade Federation which itself had already used weapons against a peaceful and charming planet, and mothballed new ships, but didn't want to scare the population and hoped never to use them. Same with clones. In fact the whole use of clones from an unknown world could easily be sold as a need to immediately dispose of forces without going through training, while at the same time working from a good template.
Bam, there. Propaganda 101.

Quote:
The stupid risks he took in Return of the Jedi. did get him killed


There were almost zero risks on his side.
The battle station was safe and locked, ready to fire and capable of targeting several main capital ships in a single engagement. Its shield was impregnable.
The ground base was solidly defended by troops (who unfortunately got stupidly cocky and disorganized) and other Army personnel.
He knew about the damned shuttle.
He knew about Luke. He even expected the boy to join him. This didn't go well because, well, he's just an arse in the end with a heart of stone and didn't see that.
Man, that's a mistake that cost him his life, but somehow, it was extremely minuscule when you think of it. The idiocy of banking an entire plan on a remote particle of love stuck between two screws in Vader's chest!?
And you call Palpatine's plan stupid? LOL

Quote:
Fives nearly killed him


I don't know who's Fives.
I skipped the shitty TCWS and don't even want to touch the new CGI crap with a ten feet pole.

Quote:
The events of The Phantom Menace, there's no way someone could have identified him from the holo projections


What projections?
Those only seen by a very few select top ranking members of the Trade Federation? Who ended in jail? For war crimes? Who'd have to claim to know that the guy's chin was somehow bizarrely similar to the very guy they tried to ctach, even kill, while invading his world? Why should we know that they even knew Palpatine that well, or even Naboo? We don't even know why they picked Naboo at first, and Palpatine wasn't at the front at that moment.
Plus the only data to be found would be in the walking holo platform. Assuming its memory wasn't wiped or even held the data beyond was is strictly necessary for usage.
And as for the Coreship's command center... it blew up. So that's done.


Quote:
You have Asoka's trial


Asoka?... oh, TCWS. I can't tell, nor judge. Is that the same show where the entire Senate is guarded by like, erm, six men at most?

Quote:
Palpatine was insane, lucky, and pitted against dimwits rather then a Ranma Saotome(I realize this one sounds odd to a lot of people), Batman, or David Xanatos.

Heck, Cracked.com even wrote a serious article about it.
http://www.cracked.com/article_17546_7- ... -ball.html

[/quote]

I didn't know Cracked.com were of any authority in that particular domain.
A quick look at the article, and they already make big assumptions regarding Motti and Jabba. What follows is just as terrible btw.
For the former, they really do handwave away the fact that Tarkin had authority over Vader, which is quite a thing, truly, and that himself brings ambiguity to the whole question of he and other high ranking officials being aware that Palpatine is a Sith too! With all movies as a context, would Tarkin be stupid enough to still call Vader a Jedi, after all that happened? Plus Motti was so petulant and excited about the new weapon that I can imagine him getting carried away while surrounded by officials and trying to impress Tarkin by showing no fear of Vader. Let's also note the guy with the mustache who starred at Motti with near medical attention, like if he didn't want to miss a second of this incredible event he was observing. Either because he hated Motti or because he simply never had seen such magic performed before his very eyes and always thought it was mere exageration.
For the later, they just put him at the head of a small hotel/casino circle on Tatooine (really), when the guy is clearly more than that (the stupid author didn't really watch the movies did he? there's a whole piece about smuggling he seems to have forgotten, and Jabba not kidding about such cargo, even if Imperials are involved, and ready to put a bounty on the head of a Rebel general). Perhaps we should talk about his very remarkable presence at Mos Espa, clearly patroning the major local activities, and also his presence in Mos Eisley decades later. Also the presentation made of him at the beginning of ROTJ hardly makes Jabba a small pick in some local sordid affairs. And to wrap this up, the presence of Boba Fett at his side (one of the few bounty hunters Vader himself summoned to capture Solo and friends) would tell us that there's perhaps more to Jabba than meets the eye and that rather retarded description they made of him.
And then count the equally stupid remark about the position of the shield emitter on Endor instead of being inside the battle station. Would have been a fine point if Palpatine wasn't prioritizing the big gun and had a completed battle station to play with. We don't even know how old that generator was btw. Guy is so full of shit that he even misses that the shield does in fact protect the dish (that plus a whole huge area around it so even a 600 MT fringe nuclear detonation wouldn't have mattered in the slightest). Or that point about not blowing the escape pod. Perhaps for the same reason that he didn't order the Tantive IV to be vaporized? Hurr durr...
I'm not sure if the article is honest enough (and its author rather lazy or biased, perhaps a bit dumb) or is just stupidly exagerating each point in order to sell another typical bulletlist clickbait page.
By the looks of it, I'd say abysmally lazy. Or with a cracked skull, with brain oozing.


Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:36 pm
Profile
Jedi Master

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Posts: 2239
Reply with quote
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The problem, for SW, being that TCWS was CGI-cartoon, with all laziness and nonsense you'd find in that. It doesn't even want or need to appear realistic.
So it's always troublesome to see people really look in detail into such material because it really does not present itself favourably to our usual scrutiny.

I stopped caring since day one when CIS tanks couldn't shoot down large dried up alga trees or when droids and troopers couldn't hit shit at a range of ten meters.
You can only extract global or rough impressions, plus the narrative, out of TCWS, and that's all. Period.

You have some serious nostalgia problems. There is almost no difference between the live action Star Wars and the animated version seen in Rebels and The Clone Wars. Take off the rose colored glasses my friend, and see the world for what it is.

No one in Star Wars can hit the broad side of a barn unless the force/plot is on their side.

Tanks in the real world can't just arbitrarily drive through forests, and hovercraft aren't all that good at driving through or over obstacles..


Mr. Oragahn wrote:
That's never said in SW. We just see the Death Stars and that's all.
My own little theory is that it was a clever way for Palpatine to literally suck up resources and money across the entire Empire and created heaps of debt.
Once the reality of the 1st DS was made public, he didn't even need to limit the process the second time. Because aside from the exhaust porthole weakness, the first design already was more than enough. More than anything the Rebels ever amassed in one point. More than anything I've seen the Republic/GAR assemble at once either (battle of Coruscant, with thousands of Acclamators or Venators, would still fall short of the first battle station). A mere update to gap the weaknesses of the system, also by adding more failsafes, adding close in defense systems, more light combat crafts and even perhaps reduce the volume a notch cause it really was overkill, that would have been plain enough to still blow planets up.

Something that is touched all of once, and by characters with seemingly no sense of scale.

The banks can't do anything to the Empire because the Empire literally and figurative will destroy them.

Palpatine was creating an empire for no other reason then for the evils. Star Wars was never some well thought out story, but just a simple good VS evil with tons of PIS all around because it was poorly written. The only thing Star Wars had that set it apart was pretty eye candy you seem to hate.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Indeed, but the slowest form. If he's about engaging trade and would be exploring uncharted space, his imperial fleet couldn't max out their hyperdrives anyway.
Therefore, he could easily exchange data for rather so-so FTL drives, with the main advantage that they don't represent ecological disasters contrary to warp drives which are massively regulated, in fact.

Best hyperdrives, control of repair centers and most efficient hyperlanes (possibly secret ones), wouldn't need to be a part of the deal.

1) A hyper-drive is a hyper-drive. It's all the same physics.

2) It seems the criminal element has the most knowledge of Hyper-Lanes.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
TCWS have introduced a mastery of holograms which, as someone said, was like it was Voyager on acids.
Such a level of technological capability means a shit lot regarding mastery of light, "hardening" it, and all sorts of quantum stuff, meaning that they'd have not so much issues at understanding computers in Trek either.

When you can control the dual wave/particle light itself to this level, I don't think being able to aim a megaton laser over a range of thousands of kilometers would be such a problem for the biggest yet conventional weaponized naval assets.


Like I said, the Empire has nothing of value. Who wants weapons that can't get through a basic navigational deflector?


Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Besides, wouldn't Star Wars possess a variety of exotic materials that the Ferengi would love to have? At least first hand, and perhaps go as far as to put a patent on the Trek side of this so no one would have a right to replicate the materials that might get properly scanned?

What fictional materials exist in Star Wars? The only thing I can think of is Kyber Crystals, and some stuff that is pretty much worthless in Star Trek that is Legends..

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Odd. All info I've seen in my lifetime about UFP outposts seemed to largely involve human settlements, and the views of crowds in pre-JJAverse shift didn't throw an image of the humans being a minority there, quite the contrary.

If mankind is the minority, then why the hell do they have all the headquarters and all that, despite the fact that they were some of the less advanced species out there, btw?

1) There are a large number of species that superficially look like human do to those precursor who made sure humanoids are common. Heck, there are even Vulcaniod races as well.

2) We know there are ships that have few if no humans on them

3) Humans handle things like cold and hot better then a number of species in Star Trek so they show up everywhere.

4) Humans were on good terms with all the founding members of the Federation, but the other founders had some rather bad relations between them.

5) Star Trek is a TV show made on 20/21 century Earth with a makeup budget.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Uh what? Stupid and reckless, I don't get that vibe from the movies.
The guy is a super plotter and perhaps uses the Force to help himself there. He's the kind of trickster who would make Tzeentch very proud, only for what he achieved on a galactic scale in such a short timeframe.
You memory is rather tainted by nostalgia. Star Wars is PIS on top of PIS on top of PIS, and really is a kiddy show has nothing going for it beyond the eye candy, and I'm glad TCW and Rebels changed that

Without "The Force" being on his side he really can't do anything.

Episode 1
Palpatine shows his face or at least most of it to the Trade Federation while having Darth Maul by his side.

His plans require the Trade Federation to have no diplomatic skills, and act like cartoon villains even though it is against their best interests.

A bunch of little stuff in TWC

His order 66 plan requires no one discovering the Bio-chip weakness in the clones, and exploiting it or removing it. One little non-invasive medical scan was all it would take.

Turning Vader, and the way he demonized the Jedi was idiotic. Once Anikin finds out the guy is running both sides it requires massive PIS to not just kill him.

The ham fisted way he railroaded Asoka in the murder trial.

The way he over extends the Empire while kicking over every ant hill he can, and then making sure the ants are extra angry after ward.

The way he was surprised Vader turned on him in ROTJ even though this is the way of the Sith, and he had been treating Vader like shit since forever.

2) Making Tzeentch proud is not a compliment. Making Tzeentch is almost by definition someone stupid, reckless, wasteful, and self-destructive, and what Palpatine did was finish the tail end of a plan that was at best started by his Sith master if not many Sith generations before him, and then have everything fall apart in about 20 years or less because he was an insane idiot.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I didn't get the impression that the Maki were that massively equipped either.
Now, iirc, the Maquis were mainly a problem to the Cardassians, and these guys weren't friendly towards the Federation.
Palpatine would just have to reinforce the side which seems to get too underpowered, so it could remain a shard in the opposite camp's foot.
This way they'd be grinding their forces away.

Reenforce with what? The Empire has nothing to offer.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
That's a rather wide generalization. Not all Imperial officers would be cretins, and Tarkin hardly seemed to be a total space idiot either.

The Tarken who was too stupid/insane to use his anti-fighter defenses when being attacked by fighters, and knew exactly what the fighters were trying to do?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
As for the Trade Federation, they were mainly merchants with some kind of naval force and clearly didn't seem at ease to deal with proper warfare.

The trade Fed was a legitimate government with a standing droid army, one of the largest armies in the galaxy it seems.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
They even had the same droids run ship controls and fight on the ground. They were that cheap. Palpatine just pushed them into a situation they couldn't handle, and which was enough to start a dramatic chain of events.

B-1 droids are versatile and cheap, and seemingly match or exceed the galactic standard for soldiers (which is kind of scary).

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Not spotting asteroids with active scanners is close to impossible. Active scanner is so simple that it cannot go wrong at that level, it will just bounce off anything, especially dumb rocks, and indicate to the ship that there's a wall of trouble ahead.
If those rocks weren't spotted soon enough (and Leia was too busy looking at their fingernails), we'd have to look for good explanations. Like:
- Deactivcated active scanning to reduce profile signature with Imps on your tail might explain things.
- Active scanners focused on detecting anything imperial and ignoring anything else would also be logical.

1) We have and use radar that can spot birds in flight from a safe dispense away. Those dumb rocks are a real threat that a collision warning system should be looking for.

2) You can't just make up excuses when there is no evidence for the capability in the first place.arvel: There should be a warning system so people not in the cockpit know to brace.

3) There are purely mono-directional sensory systems like Lidar

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Removing features on a given series of product wouldn't mean the overall technological level dropped.
For what it's worth, the ARC fighters don't look like they'd be outperformed by the other crafts.
1) The only Clone War era design used in the Rebellion era was the Y-Wing, and it didn't do too well from what we see.

2) T.I.E. appear to be based on prototype fighters used by the Jedi
http://www.starwars.com/databank/eta-2-jedi-starfighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/yoda-s-fighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/jedi-starfighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/tie-fighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/inquis ... -prototype

The X-Wing appears to be a more refined version of the Z-95, and is a respectable fighter as well as a respectable bomber.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/arc-170-starfighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/x-wing-starfighter

The A-Wing would appear to be based on the Eta-2 and the Delta-7, and did not appear until late in the Rebellion it would seem
http://www.starwars.com/databank/eta-2-jedi-starfighter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Delta-7_ ... ptor/Canon
http://www.starwars.com/databank/a-wing-fighter

The B-Wing seems to come out of nowhere with the only similar ship seeming to be The Twilight
http://www.starwars.com/databank/twilight
http://www.starwars.com/databank/b-wing-fighter
(That picture on the B-wing databank page would imply B-wing can hit well outside their weight class.)

Even if the tech base is unchanging it is still possible to refine and improve designs. remember that they were kind of out of practice at designing weapons, and even real world car and plane designers refine the design from the first production model from year to year.


Mr. Oragahn wrote:
If anything, the Rebel fighters look really aged and overused. Probably jack of all trades, built more sturdy because Rebels couldn't afford more.
What's your point? If you use something a lot it stops looking new and shiny. The Rebellion had been going on for most of Luke's life remember, and even if the X-Wings were relatively new, they still could have seen a lot of action.


Mr. Oragahn wrote:
GO24 is an extreme, Lucky. Your skirmishes are plain acts of war, with entire crews and perhaps outposts being killed and destroyed.
If you take a look at modern news, you'd see no one takes that stuff lightly. More precisely, one side is always careful to use proxies. US/Israel uses local EU forces in Europe, as seen lately with the Ukrainian conflict, being careful not directly launching US tanks against Russian tanks, Israel engages directly against small fish in its own region so no one gives a shit, Iran arms Hezbollah, the Saudi arms a bit of any kind of agitated Arab fundies (lately IS iirc), so nothing really direct enough.

But in your examples, you have UFP clashing with the Klingon Empire directly, and I don't recall the Klingons to open rather friendly and well reasoned. If anything, their empire was established through sheer brute force and maintain that way with a layer of honour ughr ughr on top of it.

Romulans? They appear to be snakes.

One Star Trek WMD and you get a Chicxulub or greater level event, and the group who did can be completely invisible, but no one ever remotely uses this sort of weapon even when the enemy capital is just a few days travel.

Everyone has at the very least a "gentleman's agreement" to play nice, and to not cross certain lines which the Empire crosses when dealing with their own people.

Star Trek exists in a state of M.A.D. where everyone who has a warp drive can casually wipe out entire planet with ease, and it is rather easy to shatter a M-class planet like Earth. Real world analogs don't really exist when there are no real proxies.

You're kind of dishonest or naive to assume real world Earth is applicable to what we see in Star Wars and Star trek when the situations are often completely alien..

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Naboo is super fertile. It's odd.
But I don't see how they could import anything if they can't even retain their main production for themselves.
If at least they had been in a situation like say, Japanese or Chinese, and exchange it for high tech or cheap labour.
The problem is that they do so because they don't seem able to produce enough on their own, which should never ever happen with damned Naboo.
Does Naboo really have to import water???
That's insane. If this were true, they'd simply have nothing left to trade with in order to import prime consumables.
It makes no sense to me.

So on this I'm sorry but I'm going to have ask for solid quotes for all worlds mentionned, or at least a very good sample.

Straw Man, and your reply really does not make sense as a result.

1) In Episode 1 Naboo was suffering shortages when the trade fed invaded. Given those in charge of the invasion are shown to have little stomach for things like gladiatorial combat, I would say that killing the Naboo was not an intent, and it's bad for business if you kill your clients.

2) Mandalore was importing premixed drinks tea or soft drinks which would imply something odd like a water shortage, but then the place is seemingly domed cities in desert.

3) Pantora suffered civil unrest when the Trade Fed blockaded it in TCW which is odd as a blockade should just be annoying, and this implies the importation of more or less daily necessities.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
When was it said they needed so much time to map out most of the galaxy's routes? We don't even know how they're established nor what they really are.

No time frame is given, but you've still got the "Unknown regions" were seemingly beyond the Empire's reach, and the mapping likely takes time, and we know finding new lanes is hard.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
You're sounding like saying they went much faster once they were basically handed a map and a proper route to follow.

That is basically what we are shown in TOS, Voyager, Enterprise, and to a lesser extent TNG.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Besides, 5 years ain't that much, nah? Wasn't the original length more like 75 years anyway? Or more?

Voyager estimated 75 years to get home.

They take on Nelix as a guide, and the estimated travel time drops to 70 years.

Year of Hell Part 2 they build a Stellar Cartography Lab, and they nock another 5 years off the trip.

Hope and Fear Starfleet sends some map data that takes another "few years" off the trip

In Q2, Q gives them a little map data, and they nock another "few years" off the estimated trip.

Better map data shaved about 16 to 30ish years off Voyager's trip estimated home, and when taken with episodes like "The Chase" you get the picture that crossing the Milky way in a few weeks to a months with good maps is possible for the UFP of The Next Generation era if not the TOS era.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Because the tools are not secret? Do we even hold secret the tools needed to build tech already one decade old?
The Empire would still need to build the tools to build the tools to build the tools.

You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Then again they'd build them and try to acquire the most advanced ones. The problem with the post-scarcity thing in Trek is that like the best stuff... is basically just one knee bending from hand's reach.

You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.

The thing about the United Federation of Planets is that they seem to recycle everything so there isn't any trash to pick up like Anikin did in Episode one to build his pod racer and C3-P0.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
If you get the physics, plans for some models and plans for the tools, which again I don't see being kept secret except for the most sensitive latest stuff, then you do get a chance to reduce the gap rather quicly.
This is where the UFP's self sense of superiority in ethics and openness could hit it in the buttocks.

You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It was short hand example. You can buy the latest hard science books on Internet and everything preceding them.
Within the UFP, you don't even have to buy it! Hallelujah!
Open bar!

You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.

Man, you keep making the same flawed assumption over and over.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Considering the Death Star and the discharge of a super beam that fucks planets doubled by some funky hyperspace related effects, I think superconducting thingamajicks won't be much of a problem.
Perhaps not as good, certainly, but they're most definitely there.

Natureal weird stuff and shields in no way shows the Empire could produce the needed supe conductors.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I most certainly disagree. One scientist can change the course of an entire war.

Not on a scale that is large enough and fast enough. One person can only do so much.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Because obviously those scientists would come with empty hands and would have no idea of where to get their hands on such tools. I mean, they'd probably pick some of those "ubiquitous" replicators with them, just because they are that practical. Literally handing them to the Empire.

Shame the ones he/she would have are only good for common elements found in the real world, and not have the resolution he/she would need to be of real use.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It has plenty to offer, even to the sane ones. Basically the whole game changes within the Empire. It gives you a nice place and you do what you want. It builds planet blasting moon sized stations. No limits. No restriction on outlawed tech or genetics!

1) You basically just stated that only the insane scientists would want to go to the empire. The sane ones can already do what they want when they want.

2) They wouldn't be able to do what they want when they want because that isn't how the Empire works. It would be do what the Empire wants when the Empire wants it or else.

3) You use to actually make intelligent arguments, it's insulting.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I think that some of their scientists, regardless of their talent, but formed by the UFP so therefore having all the bases necessary to at least bridge the gap, offer a rather large potential of transfuges who are not even going to ask the UFP to do stuff they want, the way they want.
Today we have plenty of scientists who work on nice stuff, yet there are plenty on work on terrible projects, more or less given free reign by private ventures or some governments, depending on the international relations btw.

This makes almost as much sense as JasonB's average posts.

If I'm reading this correctly you are claim that scientists will go work for the Empire so they can work on what interests them because the powers in Star trek won't let them for some reason that makes no sense?

Every scientist we see in Star Trek is working on what they want, and it's only the insane ones who can't, and even then the Empire really would be a major down grade in every way.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It will swing both ways. But the Empire has more to gain.
Plus the Empire can promise a human-friendly specist environment where you don't have to eat a propaganda that spoon feeds you the beauty of having whatever green alien settle next to your home and fuck your girl. You greatly undermine the power of species' instincts.
That's probably one thing that Empire would likely support, a specist movement right on Earth if possible.

You're really not making sense. If you're going to play devil's advacate, then at least get you facts straight.

1) Human-Friendly and The Empire are oxymorons. I know of very few sane people who want to move to third world countries and be slaves there.

2) The GFFA has far more cross species things going then Star Trek, or did you miss the sex slave trade that was in a bleeping "kiddy" show?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
But we're not told what happened next, nor if this government had any means to retaliate, or even was capable of warp travel.

This response does not make sense. You asked a question, and I proved they would dare to double cross a client.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
OK, but "Jews in Space" still don't like brute force applied against them.

1) This is horribly rude and offensive. I've never met a Jew who remotely fit this description.

2) You've really never seen Deep Space Nine have you? Ferengi are basically organized crime mafia types.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It's bad for health, and more importantly, bad for business. You can fool a group once, but not several times. And you're still dealing with an entire galactic empire which would hold many secrets.
Then some Ferengis might not care about antagonizing the Empire, then others might very well be concerned by such reckless decisions.

Besides, YES, as I explained earlier, probably on page 1, the Ferengi have a large advantage to gain in trading what the Empire wants: because the Empire dictates most of the market on its side, and that's basically heavens for the Ferengi, who can't create much of an artificial scarcity on the Trek side.
On the Imperial side? They will have to (and most likely, gladly will) play the dark side style capitalist game, because that's the core of their business and mentality. Easy access to everything sucks for merchants and resellers, that's the golden rule.

1) Funny how the GALACTIC EMPIRE doesn't control the entire galaxy.

2)Why trade when no one can stop you from stealing?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Yeah well I don't understand the nazi communist part because they're literally two totally opposite concepts.
It the real world groups that inspired the writers when they created the Galactic Empire. Mining Guild = Empire which would imply the Empire has taken ownership of pretty much everything.

The Empire Strikes Back
Leia: So you're part of the mining guild then?

Lando: No, not actually. Our operation is small enough not to be noticed... which is advantageous for everybody since our customers are anxious to avoid attracting attention to themselves.

Han: Aren't you afraid the Empire's going to find out about this little operation and shut it down?

Lando: That's always been a danger looming like a shadow over everything we've built here. But things have developed that will insure security. I've just made a deal that will keep the Empire out of here forever.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Hutts have their little bubble, and we don't know if they can or want to expand. By the time of the Empire, you see Imperial troops on Tatooine, remember?
Did you see the Republic on Tatooine? Oh wait, no.
They have much to bring with them, those Ferengi, and they can cut themselves a nice "mobile" interstellar trade market slice within the Empire.
There is no imbecility there, it's actually the point of business.
There's a whole galactic market that still uses "printed" currency. Good!

Note, btw, that the Empire wouldn't be stupid to the point of not keeping their eyes on the Ferengi either.
That a fair claim.

1) Which just means the Ferengi use replicators to cheaply and perfectly the worthless Imperial currency.

2) The cloaked Ferengi ships will just beam up anything they want as would any other Star Trek power. They wouldn't even need a cloak give how useless Star Wars sensors are.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Refer to the points above.
The Empire is a dream come true for the Ferengi.

A bunch of helpless primitive idiots to rob blind.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
They won't need to do that, quite obviously.

If someone is robbing you blind then you need to at least try to stop them. You can't let mafia types just run amuck.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Maybe the Dominion was wrecking worlds and subduing populations, and used engineered slave warriors as well alongside other mercenaries which means they had no use for Ferengi's assets.
The Ferengi had little to bring, no fancy toys to sell in small parts, and the Dominion's actions most likely killed trades in several parts because of the tension and destruction of assets.
Merchants like open frontiers and zero tax. They don't like stepping across frontlines much.

As for the Empire being cartoon villainy, not really. Lord of the Rings and Mordor forces? Yes, perhaps. The Empire? Just because we saw a rather lopsided application of brute forces against Rebels, who would obviously be presented as dissenters, enemies, trouble makers, terrorists and what have you by the Imperial propaganda (which it would own so much that basically most of the population would automatically be siding with the Empire or adopting a neutral laissez-faire standpoint).
You might think as the destruction of Alderaan being over the top, but unfortunately we weren't privy to all the details before hand.

We weren't even told, but what if Alderaan had been neutered early on, with all trade routes filtered by the Empire for some years already?
What if they were already in a very bad position regarding the rest of the pathetic remains of the Senate?
After all, Vader knew that they had weapons and Leia was lying through her teeth (source: novelization).
In real world, an entire country like Iraq has been ravaged and left in shambles for less than that. So...

If anything, the Empire had far more evidence and reasons to act nasty against Alderaan (from their pow of course, they're still monsters).

So this little digression of realpolitiks aside, I don't really see any reasons to stick such a gross fairy tale filter onto SW. Surely, Disney is now producing a rather kiddy show (with that choper droid that keeps saying FUCK btw) and Darth Lucash was the one who couldn't handle the much superior Empire Strikes Back and had to introduce teddybears in the last OT movie, but the overall intrigue is just as gruesome as real world stuff.

Given you have chosen willful ignore about Star Wars, you are just making stuff up despite the facts seen in Rebels and Clone Wars.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Unless having an access to Ferengi paybooks, that would be hard.

You just ignore the fact the Federation has a surprisingly competent intelligence gathering service. If the UFP spies don't know about it then it isn't happening.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It would be quicker to ask if UFP members have any restriction with selling stuff to non-UFP members.
You claim betrayal, but is there anything to betray there?

Now, while I'll be waiting for evidence for your claim, I'll still point out that the UFP is more fertile, diversified, larger and stable ground for trade.
But then again, the Empire is even MORE of that, all at once.

Have you had a stroke or something? You've been acting rather odd lately?

The UFP has never been shown to sell to anyone that I'm aware of. The Cardassians would have loved to purchase UFP tech if they could have, but no one sold them anything from what we see.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Well, assuming no Ferengi gets caught by the Empire for starters (you know, we do have got some members of your family, so perhaps your Nagus guy or god isn't willing to trade, but I understand you'd be more open minded?), I'm rather sure that the Empire wouldn't be enjoying seeing those ugly bastards literally produce fake credits.
It's much more useful to trade peacefully. That's pretty much why the Ferengi are favourable to the UFP to begin with, isn't it?
The Ferengi are merchants mainly, they don't have the industrial might. They're "perfect" agents of transfer between clients within the Empire, buying crafts, consumables, gear, tech and droids in large quantity.
Heck, there would be Ferengi who would trade just because they love to trade, because their whole culture is about trading, and gladly abide by the local market's rules, even if cheating sometimes.

1) Strange how I already showed this would work.

2) Why would there even be counter fit credits?

3) There is no way to show the credits are counter fit.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Not sure what PIS means.
I'm assuming normal competence. The kind that is at least necessary to build what we see in SW, especially on the imperial side.

1) P.I.S.
Plot
Induced
Stupidity

2) Normal competence for the Empire is horribly incompetent and stupid.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I didn't know that being part of an Empire made you a slave.
Where is that idea coming from?

The Empire Strikes Back, Rebels, and a shit ton of Legends.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
As pointed above, most of what I see is humans. Even in places where you'd expect a massive amount of mixing (administration, academies, etc.). Not to say that quite everytime another major UFP ship was shown, no matter where it came from, it generally quite a larger quantity of human crews visible.

Funny how Vulcans, Betazoids, Ocompa, Bajorians, and huge number of other species in Star Trek look like humans. You trying to make me think you are recovering from a stroke?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Careful, you might break a nail there.

You're the one with memory problems it seems.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Republic stagnated at a leisure pace, the places it cared about largely pacified, and nothing to fear from local thugs lording over scumworlds.

Not a reason to technological stagnate.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Empire, within its three decades of existence iirc, built two Death Stars and, by act of Palpatine,

Old designs reliant on finding big lightsaber crystals in the ground.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
in fact introduced a whole new range of warship production like the galaxy had never seen, which it perpetuated after the fall of the Republic.

Building big ships was already done.

No new technology or innovations.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Also, the rebellion seemed to be a pretty recent thing in fact, appearing quite lately,

Funny how you ignore the fact that the Rebellion started the day Palpatine became emperor. The Rebellion was as old as the Empire.

It's one thing for you to not watch Rebels, but you are forgetting things from Episode 3.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
and the Empire would have no real reason to put lots of efforts into R&D.

There is always reason to research and innovate in the real world

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
But let's not pretend that they were full of idiots and that there wouldn't scientists whose curiosity would suddenly be teased by the existence of new techs.

IF you've talked with engineers and scientists, you then know that they'd jump on anything new and exciting.

That's nice and all, but Star wars tends to be shown to be full of idiots for the most part.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Kid me! :D
Vader had an utterly huge stampeding amount of glory to back him up, tons of reasons to have earned far more respect than the Emperor ever had, for at the very least having been betrayed and burned by the Jedi who had been presented as traitors 24/7 on all channels, and most importantly, having led the Republic's forces to victory in the most decisive battles, liberated worlds and having defeated the CIS, who turned against the Republic. Besides, winners write history.
Palpatine gained a lot of support by simply showing that Vader, the war hero, sided with him.
Only for that, Vader would have a solid loyal support from the entire Navy and Army, down to all regiments of the Stormtroopers ranks.
Palpatine would always remain a schemy politician in the minds of all the vermine crawling at his feet.

Wow, you memory is a mess. The Empire openly mocks Vader in the OT, and no one knows that Anikin = Vader.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
If that's so, please restate your point in a different manner.

Your lack of understanding comes from your admitted willful ignorance of Star wars.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I don't see why you're feeling insulted.
Try to argue the point please or skip.

I don't need to restate a clear point. You just need to stop making straw men.

You keep assuming the Empire is this perfect mary Sue organization who is actually competent, but it was a group of idiots with no people skills who just did things for the evils, and was run by mad men like Nazi Germany.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Jedi don't have infinite authority and the war was literally at full rage overnight. I mean it's made pretty clear in the movie that although they know something is fishy, they don't even have time to react.
The whole Republic is going at war by noon. Understand?
You think people on world #318435407 are going to ask for some lumbering administrative investigation about where those troops and ships might come from?
How could the average citizen know or even care??
Hey, let's just say that the Republic was aware of the rising tension against the CIS, which incorporated the Trade Federation which itself had already used weapons against a peaceful and charming planet, and mothballed new ships, but didn't want to scare the population and hoped never to use them. Same with clones. In fact the whole use of clones from an unknown world could easily be sold as a need to immediately dispose of forces without going through training, while at the same time working from a good template.
Bam, there. Propaganda 101.

This isn't a response to what I said, and if you think it is you need medical help. There's been some odd changes in your posting of late so you may want to think about it.

The Jedi had Jedi to spare.

The Republic could spare a clone or two for a full medical scan that would at worst take a few hours.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
There were almost zero risks on his side.
The battle station was safe and locked, ready to fire and capable of targeting several main capital ships in a single engagement. Its shield was impregnable.
The ground base was solidly defended by troops (who unfortunately got stupidly cocky and disorganized) and other Army personnel.
He knew about the damned shuttle.
He knew about Luke. He even expected the boy to join him. This didn't go well because, well, he's just an arse in the end with a heart of stone and didn't see that.
Man, that's a mistake that cost him his life, but somehow, it was extremely minuscule when you think of it. The idiocy of banking an entire plan on a remote particle of love stuck between two screws in Vader's chest!?
And you call Palpatine's plan stupid? LOL

One ship with a hyper-drive is all it would have taken to destroy the second Death Star.

Not anticipating Vader turning on him was stupid as it is the whole Sith way and all.

Not taking Vader's feelings into account was idiotic, but this is why Palpatine was losing control from day one.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I don't know who's Fives.
I skipped the shitty TCWS and don't even want to touch the new CGI crap with a ten feet pole.

Well, you do come across as rather ignorant do to not watching a show do to being true to the Star Wars movies, and realism, and are now making a full of yourself do to ignorance.

You stopped watching SWTCW do to light hover tanks not being able to drive through dense forests.

You stopped watching because no one could hit the broad side of a barn just like the OT.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
What projections?
Those only seen by a very few select top ranking members of the Trade Federation? Who ended in jail? For war crimes? Who'd have to claim to know that the guy's chin was somehow bizarrely similar to the very guy they tried to ctach, even kill, while invading his world? Why should we know that they even knew Palpatine that well, or even Naboo? We don't even know why they picked Naboo at first, and Palpatine wasn't at the front at that moment.
Plus the only data to be found would be in the walking holo platform. Assuming its memory wasn't wiped or even held the data beyond was is strictly necessary for usage.
And as for the Coreship's command center... it blew up. So that's done.

No, Darth Sidious talks to Nute Gunray while Nute is on Naboo's surface. Between ))M-9 and the projector there should be enough data to cause some trouble.

It was reckless for Palpatine to ever show his face as a Sith.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Asoka?... oh, TCWS. I can't tell, nor judge. Is that the same show where the entire Senate is guarded by like, erm, six men at most?

If you never watched The OT, the PT, SWTCW or Rebels then why the bleep are you even typing in the post?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I didn't know Cracked.com were of any authority in that particular domain.
A quick look at the article, and they already make big assumptions regarding Motti and Jabba. What follows is just as terrible btw.
For the former, they really do handwave away the fact that Tarkin had authority over Vader, which is quite a thing, truly, and that himself brings ambiguity to the whole question of he and other high ranking officials being aware that Palpatine is a Sith too! With all movies as a context, would Tarkin be stupid enough to still call Vader a Jedi, after all that happened? Plus Motti was so petulant and excited about the new weapon that I can imagine him getting carried away while surrounded by officials and trying to impress Tarkin by showing no fear of Vader. Let's also note the guy with the mustache who starred at Motti with near medical attention, like if he didn't want to miss a second of this incredible event he was observing. Either because he hated Motti or because he simply never had seen such magic performed before his very eyes and always thought it was mere exageration.
For the later, they just put him at the head of a small hotel/casino circle on Tatooine (really), when the guy is clearly more than that (the stupid author didn't really watch the movies did he? there's a whole piece about smuggling he seems to have forgotten, and Jabba not kidding about such cargo, even if Imperials are involved, and ready to put a bounty on the head of a Rebel general). Perhaps we should talk about his very remarkable presence at Mos Espa, clearly patroning the major local activities, and also his presence in Mos Eisley decades later. Also the presentation made of him at the beginning of ROTJ hardly makes Jabba a small pick in some local sordid affairs. And to wrap this up, the presence of Boba Fett at his side (one of the few bounty hunters Vader himself summoned to capture Solo and friends) would tell us that there's perhaps more to Jabba than meets the eye and that rather retarded description they made of him.
And then count the equally stupid remark about the position of the shield emitter on Endor instead of being inside the battle station. Would have been a fine point if Palpatine wasn't prioritizing the big gun and had a completed battle station to play with. We don't even know how old that generator was btw. Guy is so full of shit that he even misses that the shield does in fact protect the dish (that plus a whole huge area around it so even a 600 MT fringe nuclear detonation wouldn't have mattered in the slightest). Or that point about not blowing the escape pod. Perhaps for the same reason that he didn't order the Tantive IV to be vaporized? Hurr durr...
I'm not sure if the article is honest enough (and its author rather lazy or biased, perhaps a bit dumb) or is just stupidly exagerating each point in order to sell another typical bulletlist clickbait page.
By the looks of it, I'd say abysmally lazy. Or with a cracked skull, with brain oozing.

And this is like claiming everyone slows dials down their weapons when the camera is on them, but then dials them back up.


Fri May 08, 2015 8:20 am
Profile
Admiral
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Posts: 6862
Location: Paradise Mountain
Reply with quote
Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The problem, for SW, being that TCWS was CGI-cartoon, with all laziness and nonsense you'd find in that. It doesn't even want or need to appear realistic.
So it's always troublesome to see people really look in detail into such material because it really does not present itself favourably to our usual scrutiny.

I stopped caring since day one when CIS tanks couldn't shoot down large dried up alga trees or when droids and troopers couldn't hit shit at a range of ten meters.
You can only extract global or rough impressions, plus the narrative, out of TCWS, and that's all. Period.


You have some serious nostalgia problems. There is almost no difference between the live action Star Wars and the animated version seen in Rebels and The Clone Wars. Take off the rose colored glasses my friend, and see the world for what it is.


You have not watched the movies. Although the aim is not stellar, the absurdity found in the CGI show is high. Terribly high. And I'm not counting the bizarre fu moves Padmé pulled out of nowhere in that episode where she was hunted on Coruscant.
Droids had bad aim in the movies. Not humans/clones. At least at distances of ten meters they could hit shit. Perhaps not in the first volleys, but they had good aim in comparison to the abyssal cases of TCWS.
The CGi show is just too retarded there for me to take seriously enough or care. I'm not interested in absurd exchanges of laser beams if there's no sense of danger or any remote sense that any side could, within the next five minutes, get a chance to take someone down from the opposite side.
And that doesn't adress the fact that it's overall CGI, not realistic, and therefore allows itself contortions that you wouldn't get in live action.

Quote:
No one in Star Wars can hit the broad side of a barn unless the force/plot is on their side.


That's quite false. It's a mixed bag. Lucas is the faulty one here, not taking the stormtroopers seriously enough, and basically applying the same level of incompetence to any enemy. Yet, even if there are debatable cases in ANH for example, heroes still had to hide a lot of times in order to survive. Case in point, the exchange of fire in the destroyed bridge pit on the Death Star, or the failed escape from the prison sector.
Thing is, in real situations, if someone's firing at you, you're hardly going to have the opportunity to aim, and will most likely fire in the general direction while trying to cover.

Quote:
Tanks in the real world can't just arbitrarily drive through forests, and hovercraft aren't all that good at driving through or over obstacles..


You didn't read correctly. I said nothing about advancing through forests by crushing trees, as your reply imples.
I talked about a tank being totally unable to shoot down a silly nimble tree that even offered cover to fleeing characters, iirc.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
That's never said in SW. We just see the Death Stars and that's all.
My own little theory is that it was a clever way for Palpatine to literally suck up resources and money across the entire Empire and created heaps of debt.
Once the reality of the 1st DS was made public, he didn't even need to limit the process the second time. Because aside from the exhaust porthole weakness, the first design already was more than enough. More than anything the Rebels ever amassed in one point. More than anything I've seen the Republic/GAR assemble at once either (battle of Coruscant, with thousands of Acclamators or Venators, would still fall short of the first battle station). A mere update to gap the weaknesses of the system, also by adding more failsafes, adding close in defense systems, more light combat crafts and even perhaps reduce the volume a notch cause it really was overkill, that would have been plain enough to still blow planets up.

Something that is touched all of once, and by characters with seemingly no sense of scale.

The banks can't do anything to the Empire because the Empire literally and figurative will destroy them.

Palpatine was creating an empire for no other reason then for the evils. Star Wars was never some well thought out story, but just a simple good VS evil with tons of PIS all around because it was poorly written. The only thing Star Wars had that set it apart was pretty eye candy you seem to hate.


Where did you read that I hate eye candy? You have reading issues mate.
As for the evil plot, dude, the most painful regimes Earth has known are nothing more than men just doing it for the sake of powah. From Rome to the Kremlin.
There's no need for a fucking convoluted plan or else, it's plain enough. The plot isn't suddenly stupid because there's clearly an evil force at play.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Indeed, but the slowest form. If he's about engaging trade and would be exploring uncharted space, his imperial fleet couldn't max out their hyperdrives anyway.
Therefore, he could easily exchange data for rather so-so FTL drives, with the main advantage that they don't represent ecological disasters contrary to warp drives which are massively regulated, in fact.

Best hyperdrives, control of repair centers and most efficient hyperlanes (possibly secret ones), wouldn't need to be a part of the deal.

1) A hyper-drive is a hyper-drive. It's all the same physics.

2) It seems the criminal element has the most knowledge of Hyper-Lanes.


1. What? Could you at least care about staying on topic?

2. If by that you mean the Empire has the most knowledge of hyperlanes, I guess yes. What's your point though?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
TCWS have introduced a mastery of holograms which, as someone said, was like it was Voyager on acids.
Such a level of technological capability means a shit lot regarding mastery of light, "hardening" it, and all sorts of quantum stuff, meaning that they'd have not so much issues at understanding computers in Trek either.

When you can control the dual wave/particle light itself to this level, I don't think being able to aim a megaton laser over a range of thousands of kilometers would be such a problem for the biggest yet conventional weaponized naval assets.


Like I said, the Empire has nothing of value. Who wants weapons that can't get through a basic navigational deflector?


I'm not even sure you're replying to the quoted bit. I'm simply stating that the Empire is not going to lag behind the UFP in terms of mastery of light-based tech.
Period.
This wasn't obvious before, but the new shows have introduced such advanced forms of technology in that department that the gap between ST and SW has been bridged.

As for ND deflecting light, ok, but it's a no limits fallacy. A mirror can deflect light, but there's something like photon pressure which will deal damage merely because of photons being compressed in large quantities, preventing proper deflecting.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Besides, wouldn't Star Wars possess a variety of exotic materials that the Ferengi would love to have? At least first hand, and perhaps go as far as to put a patent on the Trek side of this so no one would have a right to replicate the materials that might get properly scanned?

What fictional materials exist in Star Wars? The only thing I can think of is Kyber Crystals, and some stuff that is pretty much worthless in Star Trek that is Legends..


http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Latinum
Quote:
Latinum was unfamiliar to the Quark of the mirror universe. (DS9: "Crossover")

"Who Mourns for Morn?" suggests that gold is essentially worthless in civilizations with replicator technology, but Quark mentions that there are certain primitive cultures that consider gold dust quite valuable. See gold for more information.


Even if it happens in a mirror universe, a Quark who doesn't appear that different, within a Ferengi culture rather the same safe for not having access to latinum, still deals with less advanced cultures that do value gold.
Surprising eh?
Rather suits my point that what matters is the currency that's accepted by the other trader.

As far as SW is concerned, kyber crystals would easily fit the bill, and they don't need to be sold in massive quantities to have value, within such a context.
But on top of that, pretty much any material that SW's scanners could identify nor "deconstruct" in a high tech lab would also be valuable, simply because if the material cannot be read, it certainly cannot be reproduced.

Besides, what stops the Empire from setting shop and producing its own GP latinum exactly?

So as it stands, we see that there's more than enough different venues for the Empire to trade with the Ferengi.
I stand my point.

Oh, bonus point.
UFP replicators have limits, especially on organics.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Replicator

Quote:
Some alien replication technology has been used to create organic material, such as when the D'Arsay archive created living snakes. The "Allegiance" aliens were also able to create living things, as in the case of Picard's imposter, in which the replicators were even able to recreate the dendritic connections where memory is stored. (TNG: "Masks", "Allegiance")

While only a Genitronic replicator could fully replicate actual organs for use in medical transplants (TNG: "Ethics"), by 2371, standard Starfleet replicator technology was theoretically capable of creating artificial substitutes for natural organs for use in medical transplants. However, this required the system to have some understanding of the organs required; for example, it was impossible to use a replicator to create a set of Talaxian lungs as Talaxian physiology included a complex series of neural links between the lungs and the rest of the body that replicators were unable to duplicate exactly (VOY: "Phage").


Now, would it be a safe bet that there could be at least a few odds creatures in the SW galaxy, a realm infused with the Force btw?


Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Odd. All info I've seen in my lifetime about UFP outposts seemed to largely involve human settlements, and the views of crowds in pre-JJAverse shift didn't throw an image of the humans being a minority there, quite the contrary.

If mankind is the minority, then why the hell do they have all the headquarters and all that, despite the fact that they were some of the less advanced species out there, btw?

1) There are a large number of species that superficially look like human do to those precursor who made sure humanoids are common. Heck, there are even Vulcaniod races as well.

2) We know there are ships that have few if no humans on them

3) Humans handle things like cold and hot better then a number of species in Star Trek so they show up everywhere.

4) Humans were on good terms with all the founding members of the Federation, but the other founders had some rather bad relations between them.

5) Star Trek is a TV show made on 20/21 century Earth with a makeup budget.


1. Let's see solid evidence of that. I could only cite the people from Betazed.
2. To what proportions?
3. Which means there's going to be a lot of them everywhere. This is not supportive of the opposite idea.
4. So they're a symbol of unity?
5. Doesn't count.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Uh what? Stupid and reckless, I don't get that vibe from the movies.
The guy is a super plotter and perhaps uses the Force to help himself there. He's the kind of trickster who would make Tzeentch very proud, only for what he achieved on a galactic scale in such a short timeframe.
You memory is rather tainted by nostalgia. Star Wars is PIS on top of PIS on top of PIS, and really is a kiddy show has nothing going for it beyond the eye candy, and I'm glad TCW and Rebels changed that

Without "The Force" being on his side he really can't do anything.

Episode 1
Palpatine shows his face or at least most of it to the Trade Federation while having Darth Maul by his side.

His plans require the Trade Federation to have no diplomatic skills, and act like cartoon villains even though it is against their best interests.

A bunch of little stuff in TWC

His order 66 plan requires no one discovering the Bio-chip weakness in the clones, and exploiting it or removing it. One little non-invasive medical scan was all it would take.

Turning Vader, and the way he demonized the Jedi was idiotic. Once Anikin finds out the guy is running both sides it requires massive PIS to not just kill him.

The ham fisted way he railroaded Asoka in the murder trial.

The way he over extends the Empire while kicking over every ant hill he can, and then making sure the ants are extra angry after ward.

The way he was surprised Vader turned on him in ROTJ even though this is the way of the Sith, and he had been treating Vader like shit since forever.


Do you know what the Trade Federation's best interests where? I don't, considering the little info we're given regarding the taxation dispute and, in fact, the overall state of taxation and regulation in the Republic. You don't even know if diplomacy was still a viable alternative. I'd think not, considering how the TF had a seat in the senate and that, for some reason, didn't prove enough. In fact, a classical demonstration of force gave the TF the upper hand.
For the reminder, it's precisely a stupid question of taxation that is behind the US' Civil War, not any topic about ending slavery whatsoever.
All in all, it seems Palpatine's plan was to increase the mutual antagonizing of major powers, and also to create more tension between the Republic's regulatory body and major economic corporations and their allied worlds. Turns out that he got what he wanted.

About the Sith showing up on communications, then what? The simple fact that they can appear as such, and that only to the few top leaders of the TF, would quite reveal an already existing deal.
The mention of anything Sith in communication just seals the deal even more: the TF can't afford themselves to be caught with such data. So it's pretty much guaranteed to be both encrypted AND erased immediately, like the modern texting apps. If an iPhone can do it...
Now, Palpatine's plan isn't bad at all if you consider that it may have initially banked on giving bad press to the Jedi and the Republic by having said Republic settle the dispute by the use of force. The TF could say that the Republic put so much pressure on them, and that so many other solutions failed, that only the application of force could allow the TF to be taken seriously. To that, the Republic would send "ambassadors". Either they'd prove useless, or they'd try to thwart the TF's actions, which would be akin to using police force, but using the Jedi so as to hope masking the Republic's real intent.

In the end, the Jedi survived and won, so Palpatine kinda sacrified his former allies and actually benefited from a surprise boost in his political career (which wasn't even necessary if the plan was to divide the galaxy from behind the scenes).

As for the rest.
Who gives about biochips?
They're more than likely Kaminoan tech, right?
Only Kaminoans can produce it. We've even seen that Kaminoans directly supervize clonetrooper healing facilities.

Anakin was an emo bitch. Palpatine sensed that the dude craved power and wanted to save his chick from whatever was bound to happen.
Admitedly, that's not the most clever part of the SW.
But are we going to drill plot holes the size of skin pores until they're gaping black holes?
Because there's like ton of modern movies which are massively appreciated and are filled with tons of inconsistencies and stupidity. Anything between Marvel and DC, for starters.


Quote:
2) Making Tzeentch proud is not a compliment. Making Tzeentch is almost by definition someone stupid, reckless, wasteful, and self-destructive, and what Palpatine did was finish the tail end of a plan that was at best started by his Sith master if not many Sith generations before him, and then have everything fall apart in about 20 years or less because he was an insane idiot.


We're talking about making proud some über god of scheming and multi-layered plots.
Do you even understand the meaning of "making X proud" by chance?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I didn't get the impression that the Maki were that massively equipped either.
Now, iirc, the Maquis were mainly a problem to the Cardassians, and these guys weren't friendly towards the Federation.
Palpatine would just have to reinforce the side which seems to get too underpowered, so it could remain a shard in the opposite camp's foot.
This way they'd be grinding their forces away.

Reenforce with what? The Empire has nothing to offer.


Sure, the Empire can't provde anything it would have acquired from the Trek galaxy.
Like the Empire couldn't get its hands on replicator blueprints. The Maquis were craving for those for example. Damned civilians have access to replicators. HELLO??
You're claiming the Empire is just incapable of acquiring anything and later giving some of it to one side for geopolitical reasons.
As we've seen earlier on, it's wrong.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
That's a rather wide generalization. Not all Imperial officers would be cretins, and Tarkin hardly seemed to be a total space idiot either.

The Tarken who was too stupid/insane to use his anti-fighter defenses when being attacked by fighters, and knew exactly what the fighters were trying to do?


I love that reality of yours where high ranking humans show no overconfidence and never make any mistake.
It turns out that at least on Earth, things aren't so perfect.

No, let's just admit it. You hate SW and you're taking pot shots at anything seemingly non absolutely perfect. You hold the characters in SW to such an absurd level of perfection, I'd love to see that kind of scrutiny applied to Trek for example.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
They even had the same droids run ship controls and fight on the ground. They were that cheap. Palpatine just pushed them into a situation they couldn't handle, and which was enough to start a dramatic chain of events.

B-1 droids are versatile and cheap, and seemingly match or exceed the galactic standard for soldiers (which is kind of scary).


No they don't. The TF simply didn't care investing into high quality droids.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Not spotting asteroids with active scanners is close to impossible. Active scanner is so simple that it cannot go wrong at that level, it will just bounce off anything, especially dumb rocks, and indicate to the ship that there's a wall of trouble ahead.
If those rocks weren't spotted soon enough (and Leia was too busy looking at their fingernails), we'd have to look for good explanations. Like:
- Deactivcated active scanning to reduce profile signature with Imps on your tail might explain things.
- Active scanners focused on detecting anything imperial and ignoring anything else would also be logical.

1) We have and use radar that can spot birds in flight from a safe dispense away. Those dumb rocks are a real threat that a collision warning system should be looking for.


And how do you think a collision system detects those rocks?

Quote:
2) You can't just make up excuses when there is no evidence for the capability in the first place.arvel: There should be a warning system so people not in the cockpit know to brace.


Yes, I can make those *excuses* because they're perfectly legit.

Quote:
3) There are purely mono-directional sensory systems like Lidar


... which bouncing waves can be caught by others than the sender.

And last but not least, it's possible that for some whatever reason, the sensor was shut off by Solo and he didn't think about putting it up, or didn't work.
It's not like they weren't doing tons of work on the ship.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Removing features on a given series of product wouldn't mean the overall technological level dropped.
For what it's worth, the ARC fighters don't look like they'd be outperformed by the other crafts.


1) The only Clone War era design used in the Rebellion era was the Y-Wing, and it didn't do too well from what we see.

2) T.I.E. appear to be based on prototype fighters used by the Jedi
http://www.starwars.com/databank/eta-2-jedi-starfighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/yoda-s-fighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/jedi-starfighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/tie-fighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/inquis ... -prototype

The X-Wing appears to be a more refined version of the Z-95, and is a respectable fighter as well as a respectable bomber.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/arc-170-starfighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/x-wing-starfighter

The A-Wing would appear to be based on the Eta-2 and the Delta-7, and did not appear until late in the Rebellion it would seem
http://www.starwars.com/databank/eta-2-jedi-starfighter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Delta-7_ ... ptor/Canon
http://www.starwars.com/databank/a-wing-fighter

The B-Wing seems to come out of nowhere with the only similar ship seeming to be The Twilight
http://www.starwars.com/databank/twilight
http://www.starwars.com/databank/b-wing-fighter
(That picture on the B-wing databank page would imply B-wing can hit well outside their weight class.)

Even if the tech base is unchanging it is still possible to refine and improve designs. remember that they were kind of out of practice at designing weapons, and even real world car and plane designers refine the design from the first production model from year to year.


None of which prove that the ARC fighter would be outclassed. We see it was rather big. It's possible it had unnecessary features. See the TIE fighter, it seems to have less than the hybrid fighter used by the Jedi.
The Y-wings didn't fail. Where did you get that? They perform very well during the war, and were considered the best bombers for the trench run on the Death Star. They were taken down just as easily as X-wings were. In fact, a two-seated variant of the Y-wing might have dramatically increased the Rebels' survival rate.
The Rebellion simply was short on resources, and by the time they got money and more support, they switched to models that were currently built/available, more suited for deep space travel (which was something quite rare for small crats, as seen by the use of the hyperdrive ring apparatus for the Aethersprite).

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
If anything, the Rebel fighters look really aged and overused. Probably jack of all trades, built more sturdy because Rebels couldn't afford more.
What's your point? If you use something a lot it stops looking new and shiny. The Rebellion had been going on for most of Luke's life remember, and even if the X-Wings were relatively new, they still could have seen a lot of action.


If they've overrused, it's a clear sign that the maintainance barely manages to keep up with the needs and use. We see that Y-wings didn't even have hull panels as much as they had during the Clone Wars. Such a lack of resources doesn't point to the Rebellion having the capacity to acquire "top of the line fighters a generation ahead of the Empire", as you said on page 1.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
GO24 is an extreme, Lucky. Your skirmishes are plain acts of war, with entire crews and perhaps outposts being killed and destroyed.
If you take a look at modern news, you'd see no one takes that stuff lightly. More precisely, one side is always careful to use proxies. US/Israel uses local EU forces in Europe, as seen lately with the Ukrainian conflict, being careful not directly launching US tanks against Russian tanks, Israel engages directly against small fish in its own region so no one gives a shit, Iran arms Hezbollah, the Saudi arms a bit of any kind of agitated Arab fundies (lately IS iirc), so nothing really direct enough.

But in your examples, you have UFP clashing with the Klingon Empire directly, and I don't recall the Klingons to open rather friendly and well reasoned. If anything, their empire was established through sheer brute force and maintain that way with a layer of honour ughr ughr on top of it.

Romulans? They appear to be snakes.

One Star Trek WMD and you get a Chicxulub or greater level event, and the group who did can be completely invisible, but no one ever remotely uses this sort of weapon even when the enemy capital is just a few days travel.


What? So all those skirmishes (acts of war, clearly) were all realized by the use of WMDs that never left a single trace about the user?
Are you just making stuff up?
Looks like you're telling me that no UFP and Klingon ships were engaged in battle (which obviously leaves pleeeeenty of time for both sides to receive signals about the well known enemy). Joke?

Quote:
Everyone has at the very least a "gentleman's agreement" to play nice, and to not cross certain lines which the Empire crosses when dealing with their own people.


And those nice rules totally allow both sides to kill each other and destroy ships until... well until what?

Quote:
Star Trek exists in a state of M.A.D. where everyone who has a warp drive can casually wipe out entire planet with ease, and it is rather easy to shatter a M-class planet like Earth. Real world analogs don't really exist when there are no real proxies.

You're kind of dishonest or naive to assume real world Earth is applicable to what we see in Star Wars and Star trek when the situations are often completely alien..


Yeah, because there's been no proxy war in Trek, no minor force acting on the interest of another one, etc.
Not to say that my examples don't cover only proxy war, since Earth has basically seen ALL wars. And yes, few countries, if none, really have the ability to prevent a ballistic or MIRV nuclear strike if any has to occur (interception systems are piss poor to say the least), especially when dealing with submarines that can casually coast along your territorial waters.

So the examples apply quite well. And therefore prove that the Empire has more than enough cards in its sleeve to cause massive trouble.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Naboo is super fertile. It's odd.
But I don't see how they could import anything if they can't even retain their main production for themselves.
If at least they had been in a situation like say, Japanese or Chinese, and exchange it for high tech or cheap labour.
The problem is that they do so because they don't seem able to produce enough on their own, which should never ever happen with damned Naboo.
Does Naboo really have to import water???
That's insane. If this were true, they'd simply have nothing left to trade with in order to import prime consumables.
It makes no sense to me.

So on this I'm sorry but I'm going to have ask for solid quotes for all worlds mentionned, or at least a very good sample.

Straw Man, and your reply really does not make sense as a result.


Read the definition of a straw man argument please. I'm essentially doubting the data you referenced and asked for confirmation.

You claimed that "Star Wars is not remotely a post-scarcity civilization", while I pointed out that the Empire could encompass a wide range of worlds with different economical levels.
You supported your claim by pointing at a few worlds and saying they were incapable to fend for themselves and had to import primary resources.
Actually, were you talking about worlds from a war period? Because I'm talking about the Empire, which is post war by a far distance.

Quote:
1) In Episode 1 Naboo was suffering shortages when the trade fed invaded. Given those in charge of the invasion are shown to have little stomach for things like gladiatorial combat, I would say that killing the Naboo was not an intent, and it's bad for business if you kill your clients.


And proves what? Suffering shortages of what exactly? If the TF invaded and took control of food production and depots, that's normal. We're a far cry from the need for such a planet to import water!

Quote:
2) Mandalore was importing premixed drinks tea or soft drinks which would imply something odd like a water shortage, but then the place is seemingly domed cities in desert.


So you're just extrapolating. Tea and special drinks can easily be explained as exotic products. It doesn't even mean that they can't be achieved locally, just that resources are used differently.

Quote:
3) Pantora suffered civil unrest when the Trade Fed blockaded it in TCW which is odd as a blockade should just be annoying, and this implies the importation of more or less daily necessities.


I don't care about TCW (Clone Wars, ok?). Show me worlds that have massive problems in SW once all that stuff is over.
Wait. Let's change that. Show me in fact that the majority of worlds in the Empire are poor and have no access to cheap energy such as obtained from portable fusion reactors, for example.
Otherwise, please drop it.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
When was it said they needed so much time to map out most of the galaxy's routes? We don't even know how they're established nor what they really are.

No time frame is given, but you've still got the "Unknown regions" were seemingly beyond the Empire's reach, and the mapping likely takes time, and we know finding new lanes is hard.


So you made up the thousands of years timeframe. OK.
The Empire is a very recent structure, and probably had better things to do than mapping the unknown regions.
As for the Republic, who knows why the hell they never mapped them out?
In fact, how much do we know from the canon about that?

In the end, we still don't know much about how long it takes to establish a new reliable hyperlane, nor what they truly are.
But it seems to hardly matter since large amounts of Trek space are already charted and the data is publicly available.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
You're sounding like saying they went much faster once they were basically handed a map and a proper route to follow.

That is basically what we are shown in TOS, Voyager, Enterprise, and to a lesser extent TNG.


Yet, from what I see, in VOY, despite the detailed map, they didn't shave that much off.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Besides, 5 years ain't that much, nah? Wasn't the original length more like 75 years anyway? Or more?

Voyager estimated 75 years to get home.

They take on Nelix as a guide, and the estimated travel time drops to 70 years.

Year of Hell Part 2 they build a Stellar Cartography Lab, and they nock another 5 years off the trip.

Hope and Fear Starfleet sends some map data that takes another "few years" off the trip

In Q2, Q gives them a little map data, and they nock another "few years" off the estimated trip.

Better map data shaved about 16 to 30ish years off Voyager's trip estimated home, and when taken with episodes like "The Chase" you get the picture that crossing the Milky way in a few weeks to a months with good maps is possible for the UFP of The Next Generation era if not the TOS era.


I'm still seeing more than a dozen years to cover a large distance in the Milky Way after having gathered quite a sizeable amount of maps.

Is that going to best, say, Palpatine reaching Mustafar from Coruscant in what appears to be, perhaps, a few hours or much, much less?
It looks like when there's a very good map, speeds get really crazy in SW.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Because the tools are not secret? Do we even hold secret the tools needed to build tech already one decade old?
The Empire would still need to build the tools to build the tools to build the tools.


Sure, I didn't claim they'd magically pop into existence. I also said that they could acquire them. Hell, what would prevent the Empire from putting its hand on industrial replicators exactly?

Quote:
You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.


At a time of war, it makes sense the best tech from the UFP wouldn't be available that easily. But that's not what I claimed anyway.
The point is not to exactly come to par with the UFP, but bridge the gap and compensate with the massive industry.
Now picture an industrial replicator that builds replicators and parts of other industrial replicators.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Then again they'd build them and try to acquire the most advanced ones. The problem with the post-scarcity thing in Trek is that like the best stuff... is basically just one knee bending from hand's reach.

You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.

The thing about the United Federation of Planets is that they seem to recycle everything so there isn't any trash to pick up like Anikin did in Episode one to build his pod racer and C3-P0.


Not that it is essential (I hope you're not implying that the Empire could only advance by collecting garbage from UFP trash bins), but I'm going to ask for proof please.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
If you get the physics, plans for some models and plans for the tools, which again I don't see being kept secret except for the most sensitive latest stuff, then you do get a chance to reduce the gap rather quicly.
This is where the UFP's self sense of superiority in ethics and openness could hit it in the buttocks.

You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.


Is repeating yourself like a broken record your latest tactic?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It was short hand example. You can buy the latest hard science books on Internet and everything preceding them.
Within the UFP, you don't even have to buy it! Hallelujah!
Open bar!

You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.


Yes, it is.
Apparently, you can't read. You fail to comprehend that there's no assumption to be found here. Anything publicly available from any academy in the UFP and its science books is to be picked freely. Yummy.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Considering the Death Star and the discharge of a super beam that fucks planets doubled by some funky hyperspace related effects, I think superconducting thingamajicks won't be much of a problem.
Perhaps not as good, certainly, but they're most definitely there.

Natureal weird stuff and shields in no way shows the Empire could produce the needed supe conductors.


Yet I gave an example of a device that clearly shows the Empire could do that, at a scale the UFP never matched.
Plus the Empire makes big ships. It has more than the means to do so. Therefore it can compensate with size if the tech, being inferior, requires more room.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I most certainly disagree. One scientist can change the course of an entire war.

Not on a scale that is large enough and fast enough. One person can only do so much.


So much as solve one single problem that blocked an entire chain of logic, for example?
When you see that some massive advances in science so often come down to one guy putting the right pieces together and unleashing a whole range of discoveries, your claim is a bit hard to swallow.
I'm not saying it would happen over a night.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Because obviously those scientists would come with empty hands and would have no idea of where to get their hands on such tools. I mean, they'd probably pick some of those "ubiquitous" replicators with them, just because they are that practical. Literally handing them to the Empire.

Shame the ones he/she would have are only good for common elements found in the real world, and not have the resolution he/she would need to be of real use.


Proof?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It has plenty to offer, even to the sane ones. Basically the whole game changes within the Empire. It gives you a nice place and you do what you want. It builds planet blasting moon sized stations. No limits. No restriction on outlawed tech or genetics!

1) You basically just stated that only the insane scientists would want to go to the empire. The sane ones can already do what they want when they want.


Who talked about insane scientists?
There's probably quite a large amount of regulations that normal scientists would like to champion. The Empire would be absolutely open and public about the liberty it would give to scientists.

Quote:
2) They wouldn't be able to do what they want when they want because that isn't how the Empire works. It would be do what the Empire wants when the Empire wants it or else.


You didn't read. The Empire needs to attract scientists. You think it's going to put barriers to entry when it needs the contrary?

Quote:
3) You use to actually make intelligent arguments, it's insulting.


Well, you've been more than agressive over that entire post of yours, but if I were you, I wouldn't start making penis comparisons solely based on the perceived superiority of your arguments.
Not to say that it was totally uncalled for, but for some clear reason, there's literally not a single debate we have where you can't help yourself but pounce.
Dude, you need to chill.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I think that some of their scientists, regardless of their talent, but formed by the UFP so therefore having all the bases necessary to at least bridge the gap, offer a rather large potential of transfuges who are not even going to ask the UFP to do stuff they want, the way they want.
Today we have plenty of scientists who work on nice stuff, yet there are plenty on work on terrible projects, more or less given free reign by private ventures or some governments, depending on the international relations btw.

This makes almost as much sense as JasonB's average posts.


Respectfully, fuck you.
Surely enough, one more post like that and all you'll get in return is the enjoyment of that nice echo chamber you're headed for.

Quote:
If I'm reading this correctly you are claim that scientists will go work for the Empire so they can work on what interests them because the powers in Star trek won't let them for some reason that makes no sense?

Every scientist we see in Star Trek is working on what they want, and it's only the insane ones who can't, and even then the Empire really would be a major down grade in every way.


So you're ready to tell me that research within the UFP is absolutely not hampered by any regulation or code of ethics whatsoever?
Good to know.
Hard to believe, though.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It will swing both ways. But the Empire has more to gain.
Plus the Empire can promise a human-friendly specist environment where you don't have to eat a propaganda that spoon feeds you the beauty of having whatever green alien settle next to your home and fuck your girl. You greatly undermine the power of species' instincts.
That's probably one thing that Empire would likely support, a specist movement right on Earth if possible.

You're really not making sense. If you're going to play devil's advacate, then at least get you facts straight.


Yet I make rather clear statements. What about a pro-specist political message is hard to grasp there exactly?
Are you somehow impaired?

Quote:
1) Human-Friendly and The Empire are oxymorons. I know of very few sane people who want to move to third world countries and be slaves there.


Pardon? I'm not talking about human-friendly shit, but about a militant pro-human environment. Getting the difference here, genius?

Quote:
2) The GFFA has far more cross species things going then Star Trek, or did you miss the sex slave trade that was in a bleeping "kiddy" show?


The GFFA? What?
The Empire, you mean?
I don't recall seeing that many non-humans in the Empire. Did you?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
But we're not told what happened next, nor if this government had any means to retaliate, or even was capable of warp travel.

This response does not make sense. You asked a question, and I proved they would dare to double cross a client.


But "a client" is vague and does not necessarily apply to the Empire.
Hence my questions because it's entirely possible that double crossing this client wasn't that risky.
On the other hand, double crossing a galactic empire...

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
OK, but "Jews in Space" still don't like brute force applied against them.

1) This is horribly rude and offensive. I've never met a Jew who remotely fit this description.


Never heard of the joke about the Ferengi being an over the top pastiche of Jews?
Well, now you know.
So just relax and breathe.

Quote:
2) You've really never seen Deep Space Nine have you? Ferengi are basically organized crime mafia types.


And?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It's bad for health, and more importantly, bad for business. You can fool a group once, but not several times. And you're still dealing with an entire galactic empire which would hold many secrets.
Then some Ferengis might not care about antagonizing the Empire, then others might very well be concerned by such reckless decisions.

Besides, YES, as I explained earlier, probably on page 1, the Ferengi have a large advantage to gain in trading what the Empire wants: because the Empire dictates most of the market on its side, and that's basically heavens for the Ferengi, who can't create much of an artificial scarcity on the Trek side.
On the Imperial side? They will have to (and most likely, gladly will) play the dark side style capitalist game, because that's the core of their business and mentality. Easy access to everything sucks for merchants and resellers, that's the golden rule.


1) Funny how the GALACTIC EMPIRE doesn't control the entire galaxy.


Who gives? It's still galactic at scale.

Quote:
2)Why trade when no one can stop you from stealing?


You don't get it, huh. You can steal and replicate as much as you want, to obtain certain privileges and things inside the GE, you'll either use credits or barter.
That you can infinitely multiply the stuff doesn't really matter. It's a question of operating within an scarcity environment. You play by the rules.
And in fact, the Empire would soon be able to do the same.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Yeah well I don't understand the nazi communist part because they're literally two totally opposite concepts.

It the real world groups that inspired the writers when they created the Galactic Empire. Mining Guild = Empire which would imply the Empire has taken ownership of pretty much everything.

The Empire Strikes Back
Leia: So you're part of the mining guild then?

Lando: No, not actually. Our operation is small enough not to be noticed... which is advantageous for everybody since our customers are anxious to avoid attracting attention to themselves.

Han: Aren't you afraid the Empire's going to find out about this little operation and shut it down?

Lando: That's always been a danger looming like a shadow over everything we've built here. But things have developed that will insure security. I've just made a deal that will keep the Empire out of here forever.


All which could easily be explained by said MG being in good relations with the Empire (and enjoying privileges), and imperial regulations on the other hand which some people might find restrictive.
Not sure how they need to be total "nazi" + "communist" there.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Hutts have their little bubble, and we don't know if they can or want to expand. By the time of the Empire, you see Imperial troops on Tatooine, remember?
Did you see the Republic on Tatooine? Oh wait, no.
They have much to bring with them, those Ferengi, and they can cut themselves a nice "mobile" interstellar trade market slice within the Empire.
There is no imbecility there, it's actually the point of business.
There's a whole galactic market that still uses "printed" currency. Good!

Note, btw, that the Empire wouldn't be stupid to the point of not keeping their eyes on the Ferengi either.

1) Which just means the Ferengi use replicators to cheaply and perfectly the worthless Imperial currency.


Like the Empire will not know about the replicators.

Quote:
2) The cloaked Ferengi ships will just beam up anything they want as would any other Star Trek power. They wouldn't even need a cloak give how useless Star Wars sensors are.


But they're painted green and gold. See?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Refer to the points above.
The Empire is a dream come true for the Ferengi.

A bunch of helpless primitive idiots to rob blind.


You think robbing wouldn't get noticed.
Perhaps if the Ferengi are obsessed about spades, ok, that could go unnoticed.
Not to say that with so many worlds to settle on, the urge for trade will simply kick in. Do you know that some people just trade for pleasure?
Careful, you might fall off your chair there.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
They won't need to do that, quite obviously.

If someone is robbing you blind then you need to at least try to stop them. You can't let mafia types just run amuck.


Sure, if the Ferengi behave badly, the Empire will have to do something.
But then it's not like the Ferengi's trade centers are the only places to grab tech, is it?

Then again, as soon as the Empire acquires sensors and transporters, which it will quite obviously, they'll have the means to retaliate in ways the Ferengi wouldn't like.
See, you keep thinking from the principle that there will be no tech leak from the UFP side despite the fact that their juicy bits of knowledge are, for the most part, largely available.
Replicators, sensors and transporters are nearly cheap as dirt. You don't even need the most advanced ones, you can settle on models outdated by a decade or two.


Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Maybe the Dominion was wrecking worlds and subduing populations, and used engineered slave warriors as well alongside other mercenaries which means they had no use for Ferengi's assets.
The Ferengi had little to bring, no fancy toys to sell in small parts, and the Dominion's actions most likely killed trades in several parts because of the tension and destruction of assets.
Merchants like open frontiers and zero tax. They don't like stepping across frontlines much.

As for the Empire being cartoon villainy, not really. Lord of the Rings and Mordor forces? Yes, perhaps. The Empire? Just because we saw a rather lopsided application of brute forces against Rebels, who would obviously be presented as dissenters, enemies, trouble makers, terrorists and what have you by the Imperial propaganda (which it would own so much that basically most of the population would automatically be siding with the Empire or adopting a neutral laissez-faire standpoint).
You might think as the destruction of Alderaan being over the top, but unfortunately we weren't privy to all the details before hand.

We weren't even told, but what if Alderaan had been neutered early on, with all trade routes filtered by the Empire for some years already?
What if they were already in a very bad position regarding the rest of the pathetic remains of the Senate?
After all, Vader knew that they had weapons and Leia was lying through her teeth (source: novelization).
In real world, an entire country like Iraq has been ravaged and left in shambles for less than that. So...

If anything, the Empire had far more evidence and reasons to act nasty against Alderaan (from their pow of course, they're still monsters).

So this little digression of realpolitiks aside, I don't really see any reasons to stick such a gross fairy tale filter onto SW. Surely, Disney is now producing a rather kiddy show (with that choper droid that keeps saying FUCK btw) and Darth Lucash was the one who couldn't handle the much superior Empire Strikes Back and had to introduce teddybears in the last OT movie, but the overall intrigue is just as gruesome as real world stuff.

Given you have chosen willful ignore about Star Wars, you are just making stuff up despite the facts seen in Rebels and Clone Wars.


They are kiddy (CGI) shows, aren't they?
Yes, they are.
So telling that a kid's show presents people and faction in a kiddy way is kinda expected, you know.
The stuff from the movies, that was different (if you can excluse the Ewoks...).
In fact, by the spoilers for the next spin off movie, the tone will be quite different from the trash those "Collge Humour" CGI shows are.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Unless having an access to Ferengi paybooks, that would be hard.

You just ignore the fact the Federation has a surprisingly competent intelligence gathering service. If the UFP spies don't know about it then it isn't happening.


Proof that this service knows absolutely everything, especially if off the record translations between UFP members and the Ferengi are done?
Oh wait, are you going to tell me that all transactions are completely recorded and spied by the UFP?
Nice regime there.
Still waiting for solid proof that no Ferengi whatsoever never sold anything to the Dominion or any non-UFP members, ally, neutral or foe.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
It would be quicker to ask if UFP members have any restriction with selling stuff to non-UFP members.
You claim betrayal, but is there anything to betray there?

Now, while I'll be waiting for evidence for your claim, I'll still point out that the UFP is more fertile, diversified, larger and stable ground for trade.
But then again, the Empire is even MORE of that, all at once.

Have you had a stroke or something? You've been acting rather odd lately?

The UFP has never been shown to sell to anyone that I'm aware of. The Cardassians would have loved to purchase UFP tech if they could have, but no one sold them anything from what we see.


I'm talking about the Ferengi here, not the UFP selling anything.
What is that kind of tech the Cardassians would have loved to buy from the UFP? Proof that said tech even was available for sale within the UFP and to UFP members to begin with?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Well, assuming no Ferengi gets caught by the Empire for starters (you know, we do have got some members of your family, so perhaps your Nagus guy or god isn't willing to trade, but I understand you'd be more open minded?), I'm rather sure that the Empire wouldn't be enjoying seeing those ugly bastards literally produce fake credits.
It's much more useful to trade peacefully. That's pretty much why the Ferengi are favourable to the UFP to begin with, isn't it?
The Ferengi are merchants mainly, they don't have the industrial might. They're "perfect" agents of transfer between clients within the Empire, buying crafts, consumables, gear, tech and droids in large quantity.
Heck, there would be Ferengi who would trade just because they love to trade, because their whole culture is about trading, and gladly abide by the local market's rules, even if cheating sometimes.

1) Strange how I already showed this would work.

2) Why would there even be counter fit credits?

3) There is no way to show the credits are counter fit.


Doesn't really matter; if they use the credits, they get something in return.
Why would they even bother using credits otherwise?

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I didn't know that being part of an Empire made you a slave.
Where is that idea coming from?

The Empire Strikes Back, Rebels, and a shit ton of Legends.


Well let's have the proofs roll.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
As pointed above, most of what I see is humans. Even in places where you'd expect a massive amount of mixing (administration, academies, etc.). Not to say that quite everytime another major UFP ship was shown, no matter where it came from, it generally quite a larger quantity of human crews visible.

Funny how Vulcans, Betazoids, Ocompa, Bajorians, and huge number of other species in Star Trek look like humans. You trying to make me think you are recovering from a stroke?


Vulcans have that hairstyle that betrays them. Bajorians have the thing on their noses.
Ocampas and Betazoids, it works.
Yet, it would be rather convenient that all human faces we see actually hide non-humans, because that would not solve the problem that the glaringly non-human looking aliens are quite a very strict minority.
Where are the vast amounts of smurfs and green people, for example? They seem to be inside the UFP pretty early on.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Careful, you might break a nail there.

You're the one with memory problems it seems.


You make all sorts of stupid claims and fell outraged very easily for absolutely non-existent issues.
You claimed shitty R&D, which you have no proof of.
A good way to prove that would be to provide documented evidence of the Imperial Research trying to advance in not so impressive scientific domains and failing.

Otherwise, on those principles, we could talk about how the UFP fails on foldspace tech, or has hardly developped that much AI, over several centuries of existence.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Republic stagnated at a leisure pace, the places it cared about largely pacified, and nothing to fear from local thugs lording over scumworlds.

Not a reason to technological stagnate.


Yes, it is. If it works well enough. Fusion clean energy, droids, hyperspace, holograms and else, that's very good.
Plus bacta, for medical cures. They have cyborg tech for extreme cases.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Empire, within its three decades of existence iirc, built two Death Stars and, by act of Palpatine,

Old designs reliant on finding big lightsaber crystals in the ground.


Old designs? The very fact of building different models and even upscaling them requires fuck tons of research, because you cannot arbitrarily upscale bits of tech just like that. Let's not even talk about the massive constraints on structural integrity.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
in fact introduced a whole new range of warship production like the galaxy had never seen, which it perpetuated after the fall of the Republic.

Building big ships was already done.


Not that kind.

Quote:
No new technology or innovations.


Aside from what was new, of course.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Also, the rebellion seemed to be a pretty recent thing in fact, appearing quite lately,

Funny how you ignore the fact that the Rebellion started the day Palpatine became emperor. The Rebellion was as old as the Empire.


If that's revealed in Rebels or else, good, but from the movies alone, the Rebels hardly have that many resources right through ANH. It only becomes serious around TESB, several years after ANH.
What's your evidence?

Quote:
It's one thing for you to not watch Rebels, but you are forgetting things from Episode 3.


I don't recall the birth of the Rebellion being announced in Episode 3.
When does this happen exactly?

Plus, even if it was that old, the thing remains that it was short on resources (read point above regarding ANH).

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
and the Empire would have no real reason to put lots of efforts into R&D.

There is always reason to research and innovate in the real world


Unless you're quite happy with what you've got.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
But let's not pretend that they were full of idiots and that there wouldn't scientists whose curiosity would suddenly be teased by the existence of new techs.

IF you've talked with engineers and scientists, you then know that they'd jump on anything new and exciting.

That's nice and all, but Star wars tends to be shown to be full of idiots for the most part.


Yeah, really, am I supposed to debate with you after such a ludicrous claim?
If you hate SW, fine. I mean, you seem to watch entire shows featuring legions of cretins. Is it to make you feel worthwhile or something, because as far as I'm concerned, that's the kind of stuff that puts me off.

Quote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Kid me! :D
Vader had an utterly huge stampeding amount of glory to back him up, tons of reasons to have earned far more respect than the Emperor ever had, for at the very least having been betrayed and burned by the Jedi who had been presented as traitors 24/7 on all channels, and most importantly, having led the Republic's forces to victory in the most decisive battles, liberated worlds and having defeated the CIS, who turned against the Republic. Besides, winners write history.
Palpatine gained a lot of support by simply showing that Vader, the war hero, sided with him.
Only for that, Vader would have a solid loyal support from the entire Navy and Army, down to all regiments of the Stormtroopers ranks.
Palpatine would always remain a schemy politician in the minds of all the vermine crawling at his feet.

Wow, you memory is a mess. The Empire openly mocks Vader in the OT, and no one knows that Anikin = Vader.


You dishonest twat.
Only one guy kinda laughs at Vader in ANH (and that's only about the remark regarding the Force), and you equal that with the entire Empire.
Oh fuck off, that amount of BS is just too much to cope with.

End of discussion.


Sat May 09, 2015 12:17 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software.