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Praeothmin · Post by **Praeothmin** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:12 am

Well, they can't, because, y'see, according to them, you're just another Darkstar cockgoblin (as if that means anything :)... ).

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:35 am

That's one of the most stupid insults ever formulated.

watchdog · Post by **watchdog** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:21 am

Personally I get a little board with arguments that retread the same ground over and over again. like the smuggling compartments on the MF, insisting that trek sensors couldn't possibly detect anything from them because they've been designed to defeat sensors. Sure, Imperial sensors. And as many keep pointing out, trek sensors are better than wars. Better resolution, greater range. Another interesting thing about that scene from ANH is the poor security measures aboard the Death Star, you capture a ship that supposedly blasted its way out from a planet and instead of having several guards inside and outside the ship while your unarmed scanning team goes inside (with huge scaning equipment no less), you only post two guards outside the ship who get easily taken out by the people hidden on the ship.

Kazeite · Post by **Kazeite** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:32 am

Man, that's easy - you see, Vader and Tarkin already knew that our heroes were aboard and have decided to let them escape - they had the movie script you know - and that's why there were only two guards :)

Praeothmin · Post by **Praeothmin** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:01 pm

Kazeite wrote:Personally I get a little board with arguments that retread the same ground over and over again. like the smuggling compartments on the MF, insisting that trek sensors couldn't possibly detect anything from them because they've been designed to defeat sensors. Sure, Imperial sensors. And as many keep pointing out, trek sensors are better than wars. Better resolution, greater range.

But that's just it, don't you see?
They absolutely, positivevely, refuse to believe anything in ST is better then its SW counterpart.

Phasers are weaker then Blasters (they ignore pure DET effects shown by Phasers with greater firepower then Blasters).

Bacta is superior to Dermal Regenerators (no matter the fact that in ST, Luke would've been up and about in only 1 or 2 hours after his Hoth ordeal).

Transporters are the work of the Devil, inhuman contraptions that suck out your soul and only create a phacsimile of yourself (but the Death Star, a planet destoying weapon, is a marvel of technology)... :)

watchdog · Post by **watchdog** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:29 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Kazeite wrote:Personally I get a little board with arguments that retread the same ground over and over again. like the smuggling compartments on the MF, insisting that trek sensors couldn't possibly detect anything from them because they've been designed to defeat sensors. Sure, Imperial sensors. And as many keep pointing out, trek sensors are better than wars. Better resolution, greater range.
But that's just it, don't you see?
They absolutely, positivevely, refuse to believe anything in ST is better then its SW counterpart.

Phasers are weaker then Blasters (they ignore pure DET effects shown by Phasers with greater firepower then Blasters).

Bacta is superior to Dermal Regenerators (no matter the fact that in ST, Luke would've been up and about in only 1 or 2 hours after his Hoth ordeal).

Transporters are the work of the Devil, inhuman contraptions that suck out your soul and only create a phacsimile of yourself (but the Death Star, a planet destoying weapon, is a marvel of technology)... :)

I have been aware for quite some time now that they hold this particular view, they are compleatly unwilling to admit that trek may have a techological edge in even the smallest thing, everything in wars is superior. Hence a despotic facist government or an ineffectual republic is better than the communistic but working federation, which is why their sensors are faster than light and can detect things from a hundred light years as compared to the sub-space only trek sensors that can be blocked with a hand magnet and only reach a dozen light years. Thats why phasers that can vaporize meters of rock in a second are clearly inferior to blasters that can gouge a whole inch out of ferocrete (or whatever its called) because phasers can only do damage to non-shielded matterial and blasters only appear weak when fired against the ultra dense material all star wars archetecture is made out of.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:30 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:I hat to say this to you JMS, but you disappointed some of them.

They were expecting you to be better, but it seems you're just like any other trekkie, rehashing old, beat-out arguments to prove your points.

And do you honestly believe a Tricorder could penetrate the inch-thick neutronium-laced panel (it must be, heck everything seems to be in SDN's version of SW) of a compartmentthat was specifically made for smuggling?

Come on JMS, I thought you were brighter then this... :)
Well, for the record, I'm particularly disappointed that the SDN crowd seems to be paying absolutely no attention to the whole EU/smaller superlasers issue I've raised, either at ST.com (they've simply complained that I must not know what I'm talking about rather than addressing the problem of sources giving the Eclipse superlaser "two thirds" the power of a Death Star beam) or at SDN - or appreciating the length I've gone to type out long listings of episodes, or count the numbers of episodes in which something happens.

I've cited more episodes than were probably mentioned in the previous ten pages of posts in that thread. They should appreciate that if nothing else.

This is nothing new. I remember this being the case in the old "Galaxy Class Starship vs Imperial Class Star Destroyer" Usenet thread from the mid-90's. You can cite canon source after source all you want until your fingers fall off and your face turns blue. For them to acknowledge those sources means the militant pro-Wars types must be honest, and that is something that many of them simply are not. Even when forced to acknowledge those EU passages which aren't very flattering to SW firepower and technology, you'll get the militant pro-Wars camp coming up with the most convoluted explanations, no matter how ridiculous. Failing that, they will attack you personally, as you have seen with not only yourself recently, but others, overwhelming the opposition not with arguements, but sheer numbers. If all else fails, they declare victory and run, then make snide comments from afar in the safety of hate pages and their forums.

This behavior has only been reinforced over the last decade with the takeover of the alt.startrek.vs.starwars newsgroup, and the founding of the SDN forum. Nothing has changed, and nothing will change, JMS. It's the nature of the beast.
-Mike

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:07 am

Praeothmin wrote:

Well, they can't, because, y'see, according to them, you're just another Darkstar cockgoblin (as if that means anything :)... ).

Mr. Oragahn wrote:That's one of the most stupid insults ever formulated.

That's one of the new rallying points for dealing with anyone who starts off disagreeing with them over the ST versus Wars debate. We must be all disciples of Darkstar, and most or all of the scientists and engineers involved in the debate agree that the Galactic Empire beats the Federation with no effort! Anyone who disagrees is an uneducated disciple of Darkstar! Never mind the fact that most of the people they credit; Wayne Poe, Brian Young, Commander Thelea, ect have no degrees in the science or engineering fields themselves!

Ah... the hypocrisy!
-Mike

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:17 am

watchdog wrote:

blasters only appear weak when fired against the ultra dense material all star wars archetecture is made out of.

Ah yes, the old favorite: The old "every flowerpot in da Star Woorz Uooniverzzz is made of noo-trounium" reponse. You have to love that one for just how utterly silly it is, never mind that neutronium in the SW EU is clearly not the real-life highly dense neutronium that neutron/pulsar stars are made of! ;-)
-Mike

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:21 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Ah yes, the old favorite: The old "every flowerpot in da Star Woorz Uooniverzzz is made of noo-trounium" reponse. You have to love that one for just how utterly silly it is, never mind that neutronium in the SW EU is clearly not the real-life highly dense neutronium that neutron/pulsar stars are made of! ;-)
-Mike

I take it that I might want to post a technical analysis of Star Wars: Saga Edition soon? The RPG book is quite informative, particularly the parts dealing with "neutronium" armor and the portable fusion generator.

Actually, there is something interesting that Endor said in the SDN thread, which I am somewhat curious about:

Endor wrote:Never mind the fact that it is blatantly contradicted by the movie - Qui-Gon gives Anakin a power cell that he stole from Watto to power the podracer.

I was under the impression that this cell:

QUI-GON approaches the GROUP and gives ANAKIN a small battery.
JAR JAR gets his hand caught in the afterburner and tries to
tell Anakin, but can't get words out that make sense.

QUI-GON
I think it's time we found out. Use
this power charge.

ANAKIN
Yes, sir!!

ANAKIN jumps into the little capsule behind the two giant
engines. He puts the power pack back into the dashboard.
EVERYONE backs away, except for JAR JAR who calls for help.
Finally PADME frees him and the engines ignite with a ROAR.
EVERYONE cheers.

Was basically serving the same purpose of a battery in a modern gasoline engine - giving a starting spark. Is there anything that tells us otherwise? Endor seems to be suggesting that this provided all the power.

Praeothmin · Post by **Praeothmin** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:53 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Ah yes, the old favorite: The old "every flowerpot in da Star Woorz Uooniverzzz is made of noo-trounium" reponse. You have to love that one for just how utterly silly it is, never mind that neutronium in the SW EU is clearly not the real-life highly dense neutronium that neutron/pulsar stars are made of! ;-)

Even moreso when they then turn around and say that Phasers are weak because they cannot even penetrate packing crates.
Of course, if such an incident happened in SW, they would automatically use this example to show how resistant SW packing crates are, but there's no way it could be the same for ST... :)

Praeothmin · Post by **Praeothmin** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:56 pm

*AH Crap! More double-posting*

Dang job browser... :)

watchdog · Post by **watchdog** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:29 pm

Another interesting point is that if the hulls actually were laced with neutronium, then the ships should take no damage at all from any wars weapon, not even the superlaser. You would almost think these people would know this. And if it's not laced with enough neutronium to make it indestructable, then why isn't it? If they have the technology to use neutronium in the hull then they should be able to make the ships impervious to all weapons fire (of course they next will claim the turbolasers are powerful enough to lay waste to a neutron star).

watchdog · Post by **watchdog** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:39 pm

Reminds me of something I was told once, about how if the Death Star ever managed to target a shot into the maw of treks Doomsday device, the blast would easily destroy all the mechanisms within but would then come ricocheting back out at nearly full strength and probably right at the Death Star. Can the Death Star survive its own superlaser?

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:32 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Ah yes, the old favorite: The old "every flowerpot in da Star Woorz Uooniverzzz is made of noo-trounium" reponse. You have to love that one for just how utterly silly it is, never mind that neutronium in the SW EU is clearly not the real-life highly dense neutronium that neutron/pulsar stars are made of! ;-)
Even moreso when they then turn around and say that Phasers are weak because they cannot even penetrate packing crates.
Of course, if such an incident happened in SW, they would automatically use this example to show how resistant SW packing crates are, but there's no way it could be the same for ST... :)

Oh yeah, speaking of DS9's "Blaze of Glory", I found these screencaps of again very DET-like effects from phasers:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 35&pos=296

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 35&pos=297

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 35&pos=298

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 35&pos=345

You also have to love that the "packing crates" are actually metal drums made of some fictional "duridium" material, whose physical properties are not known, and the Jem'Hadar use phase-poleron weaponary:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 35&pos=253

The closest thing to "packing crates" are off to the far left, and are not being targeted by the JH soldiers.
-Mike