I don't know if this is the right place...

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2046
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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by 2046 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:13 pm

You've been on forums for a decade or more. Please trouble yourself to use the quote tag.
Sothis wrote:'Shrug' I made the point in my website post that hyperlanes offered a safer means of travel but that 'going off-ramp' as you put it, was very possible. You summed up my argument as '1. Hyperlanes are only a road safety thing. Going off-lane is perfectly fine., that felt like a dig, and one that didn't accurately sum up what I had actually said.
You just said it again while complaining about it having been said.
It might have been better to quote me in full. This is precisely what I try to do and it avoids confusion and possible irritation.
Quoting you in full would not have been a summary, would it?

For bonus points, in the process of complaining about my supposedly-inaccurate-yet-frequently-reinforced summary, you quasi-misquoted me with the "'going off-ramp', as you put it" bit, as I never referred to ramps. I would think a quotation-accuracy-nazi would show more caution.

I strongly recommend you drop it, as the whole complaint enterprise seems like an effort on your part to score points, but I daresay it's failing miserably. Let's keep to the topic.
I do not negate lanes nor their importance. I point out that, based on all existing canon information, hyperlanes can be bypassed if you're prepared to risk it. I don't claim it's 100% safe, only that it can be done, and indeed is done, in the PT and OT.
Basing your claim on "all existing canon information" would not involve trying to ignore the existence of something on the grounds that we are not specifically hand-held toward reminders of it on every occasion where it might be observable.

If I'm watching Knight Rider, I, for one, do not have to be reminded that KITT most likely travels on roads . . . it is enough to show KITT in front of a destination and let the audience fill in the blank.

Of course, in your mind, he obviously must have gone off-road for no apparent reason since the use of a road was not specifically mentioned.

That's silly.
If it was easy to map a new safe route simply by sending probes and then fleets after them, such a defensive strategy would be insane. {...}
This still doesn't mean traveling outside of lanes is impossible, especially if you have good enough astrogation, star charts, probes and scouts, etc.
Um, okay. So given the continuity of Republic officers to the Empire, your argument is that Imperial tactics and strategy are insanely stupid. . . this is the point you wish to argue so that off-lane travel is readily available.

I guess that's a bargain, in your mind?
I will admit your explanation is plausible, but I feel mine remains so.
Mine is quite obviously superior to yours. I mean, it's plausible that the sky is blue because of a canopy of orbiting Smurfs overhead, but that's not the best explanation.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Sothis » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:52 pm

2046 wrote:You've been on forums for a decade or more. Please trouble yourself to use the quote tag.
I am not a frequent user of these forums. I try to use them as correctly as possible but since my posting rate here can be described as 'once in a blue moon', it's again, to me, a tad nitpicky.
Sothis wrote:'Shrug' I made the point in my website post that hyperlanes offered a safer means of travel but that 'going off-ramp' as you put it, was very possible. You summed up my argument as '1. Hyperlanes are only a road safety thing. Going off-lane is perfectly fine., that felt like a dig, and one that didn't accurately sum up what I had actually said.
You just said it again while complaining about it having been said.
My original point, is that not using hyperlanes is very much possible.

I do not claim it is the safest option or even safe. I now quote from my site with what I said:
My issue with this is that the speed is not necessarily dependent on hyperlanes, but rather, the ability to use that speed safely.
Your 'summary' was
Hyperlanes are only a road safety thing. Going off-lane is perfectly fine.
I never claimed it was 'perfectly fine' to use hyperdrive outside of these lanes. In fact I have stressed the point several times within this very thread that it entails risk. I merely point out that it can be done. With sensors, star charts, astrogation systems and probes and scouts, it is not impossible.
It might have been better to quote me in full. This is precisely what I try to do and it avoids confusion and possible irritation.
Quoting you in full would not have been a summary, would it?
Then any confusion that stems from an inaccurate representation of my point is down to you and not me.
For bonus points, in the process of complaining about my supposedly-inaccurate-yet-frequently-reinforced summary, you quasi-misquoted me with the "'going off-ramp', as you put it" bit, as I never referred to ramps. I would think a quotation-accuracy-nazi would show more caution.

I strongly recommend you drop it, as the whole complaint enterprise seems like an effort on your part to score points, but I daresay it's failing miserably. Let's keep to the topic.
I would perhaps urge you to heed your own advice and either quote me accurately or cease claiming to be summarising my position when doing so inaccurately. I have no desire to score 'points', only to keep to a civil discussion. If it comes to it, I will either have to ignore your responses if I feel you are trying to rile me unfairly, report you to the mods, or a combination of both. I have no desire for a fight and I repeat I am not interested in scoring points, and so far, I have had no issue with Lucky or Mike DiCenso's responses. Please do not give me issues with yours.
I do not negate lanes nor their importance. I point out that, based on all existing canon information, hyperlanes can be bypassed if you're prepared to risk it. I don't claim it's 100% safe, only that it can be done, and indeed is done, in the PT and OT.
Basing your claim on "all existing canon information" would not involve trying to ignore the existence of something on the grounds that we are not specifically hand-held toward reminders of it on every occasion where it might be observable.
Nor am I trying to ignore anything. I am attempting to reconcile the six main films of the saga and everything they portray, with what TCW material shows. I would argue that situations where ships are having to escape into hyperspace in a hurry (such as the Rebels fleeing Hoth, the Falcon fleeing Tantooine) would suggest lanes are not the all-encompassing important factor you claim them to be. Likewise the Imperial approach on Hoth - would the Rebels place their base along or near a hyperlane where it would be more vulnerable to approach? Or place it off the beaten track, so to speak?
If I'm watching Knight Rider, I, for one, do not have to be reminded that KITT most likely travels on roads . . . it is enough to show KITT in front of a destination and let the audience fill in the blank.

Of course, in your mind, he obviously must have gone off-road for no apparent reason since the use of a road was not specifically mentioned.

That's silly.
Leaving aside that KITT did actually travel off-road on occasion (without bursting into flames I might add), this example is silly.
If it was easy to map a new safe route simply by sending probes and then fleets after them, such a defensive strategy would be insane. {...}
This still doesn't mean traveling outside of lanes is impossible, especially if you have good enough astrogation, star charts, probes and scouts, etc.
Um, okay. So given the continuity of Republic officers to the Empire, your argument is that Imperial tactics and strategy are insanely stupid. . . this is the point you wish to argue so that off-lane travel is readily available.

I guess that's a bargain, in your mind?
Again, this is a misrepresentation of my point. Sensors, star charts, probe droids, scouts - all perfectly valid means of circumventing lanes if needs be. Not without greater risk and it may well be slighter slower if you have to wait for data from probes, scouts etc - but entirely possible.
I will admit your explanation is plausible, but I feel mine remains so.
Mine is quite obviously superior to yours. I mean, it's plausible that the sky is blue because of a canopy of orbiting Smurfs overhead, but that's not the best explanation.
This is why I am often reluctant to venture here. The unnecessary comments that punctuate our discussions serve no purpose and serve to remind me why I do not come here very often. I am not at all certain if I am willing to respond to your posts whilst you are being so combative.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by 2046 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:06 pm

So I suggested dropping the points-scoring squabbly nonsense and you devoted virtually your entire post to it?

Ugh.

Rather than feed the proverbial troll, I will simply try to parse out the actual topical bits:

1. You claim that off-lane travel involves some sort of unspecified risk, yet you also believe this risk can be mitigated with information.

Again, this makes no sense given the Nexus Route and hyperlane-based defenses. You have not responded to this point. Claiming that ships entering hyperspace in the Original Trilogy without explicitly referring to hyperlanes somehow contradicts hyperlane importance is absurd. Even your Hoth example is provided in a question-begging manner . . . it makes more sense to understand it with regards to hyperlanes for consistency than to claim it supports your point because racecar.

Again I point to the KITT example which you have failed to properly understand.

1a. You claim that off-lane travel may be slightly slower.

Nexus Route. Defenses. War.

Until you can argue against such points, your claim is simply invalid.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Sothis » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:38 am

2046 wrote:So I suggested dropping the points-scoring squabbly nonsense and you devoted virtually your entire post to it?

Ugh.

Rather than feed the proverbial troll, I will simply try to parse out the actual topical bits:
'Shrug' I respond only to the material you post. Since the first half of your post was nothing but hot air and posturing, that's all I could respond to. If you will actually practise what you preach in respect of behaviour, we will have no problem.
1. You claim that off-lane travel involves some sort of unspecified risk, yet you also believe this risk can be mitigated with information.
Correct. This is true of any means of transport. Even today cars and even trucks and buses 'can' go off-road, or down small country roads, or dirt tracks, to get from A to B. It is not advisible (especially not to go at full speed down a country lane or through a field), but it is still possible. With the right forewarning of hazards, it can be done.
Again, this makes no sense given the Nexus Route and hyperlane-based defenses. You have not responded to this point. Claiming that ships entering hyperspace in the Original Trilogy without explicitly referring to hyperlanes somehow contradicts hyperlane importance is absurd. Even your Hoth example is provided in a question-begging manner . . . it makes more sense to understand it with regards to hyperlanes for consistency than to claim it supports your point because racecar.

Again I point to the KITT example which you have failed to properly understand.

1a. You claim that off-lane travel may be slightly slower.

Nexus Route. Defenses. War.

Until you can argue against such points, your claim is simply invalid.
There are two possibilities. Either offlane travel is very much possible (and you have not disproven this possibility simply by referring to mentioned lanes - off-road travel is actually a very real thing now, and with the correct info, not completely dangerous), or the Empire took the time to quickly find new, safe routes through hyperspace via... probes and scouting. Which would explain the ease of reaching Hoth. You still however, have not addressed my point about the Rebels setting up a base knowingly right near a hyperlane, where it would leave them vulnerable. Either the probe that went to Hoth sent back navigational data to say the fleet could reach Hoth safely, or the Empire quickly mapped out a route shortly afterward.

In either event, the mapping of safe routes is not a laborious task, and going 'off-lane' is still possible.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by 2046 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:14 pm

Sothis wrote:hot air and posturing
Skipping yours, we move on to:
1. You claim that off-lane travel involves some sort of unspecified risk, yet you also believe this risk can be mitigated with information.
Correct. This is true of any means of transport. Even today cars and even trucks and buses 'can' go off-road, or down small country roads, or dirt tracks, to get from A to B. It is not advisible (especially not to go at full speed down a country lane or through a field), but it is still possible. With the right forewarning of hazards, it can be done.
In other words, you're saying roads are safer, but going off-road is perfectly fine. (Sigh)

Again, though, this completely contradicts the fact that the Separatists evidently could not go off-road to bypass Republic defenses in TCW. I hate to have to keep hammering that point but you haven't really answered as to why that would be the case.

Even below you just dodge:
Again, this makes no sense given the Nexus Route and hyperlane-based defenses. You have not responded to this point. Claiming that ships entering hyperspace in the Original Trilogy without explicitly referring to hyperlanes somehow contradicts hyperlane importance is absurd. Even your Hoth example is provided in a question-begging manner . . . it makes more sense to understand it with regards to hyperlanes for consistency than to claim it supports your point because racecar.

Again I point to the KITT example which you have failed to properly understand.

1a. You claim that off-lane travel may be slightly slower.

Nexus Route. Defenses. War.

Until you can argue against such points, your claim is simply invalid.
There are two possibilities. Either offlane travel is very much possible (and you have not disproven this possibility simply by referring to mentioned lanes - off-road travel is actually a very real thing now, and with the correct info, not completely dangerous), or the Empire took the time to quickly find new, safe routes through hyperspace via... probes and scouting. Which would explain the ease of reaching Hoth.
Where's the explanation about how your claim fits with the existence of the Nexus Route? Clearly, it doesn't exist . . . indeed, your only acknowledgement of my argument is to dismiss it as not disproving your unsubstantiated claim that going off-lane is fine.

There's just one problem . . . it *is* completely contrary to your unsupported claim.

Since you obviously haven't understood why, let me explain it via analogy, if that will even help. Suppose that China invaded the United States west coast and had designs on our 'core cities' of New York and, of course, Washington, D.C.

The way TCW works, the Americans would set up their defenses along the interstate highways, and the Chinese would not go off-road during the bitter war. Only when a previously-unknown interstate was found would the Chinese go off the beaten path and be able to cruise up to D.C. unimpeded.

To your mind, however, going off-road is perfectly fine, save for some slight lack of velocity or slight lack of safety or some other such unspecified thing which can be mitigated easily.

So why would the Chinese choose to fight their way to D.C. the hard way via interstate?

That is exactly what you are claiming of the Separatists.

Recall that at the start of the war, the Separatists managed to seize control of major hyperspace lanes, completely cutting off the Republic from the Outer Rim. This was sufficiently bad for the Republic that they got into bed with Hutt slavers and scoundrels for the use of their lanes.

Recall that the mining world of Bheriz was negotiating with Jabba the Hutt for hyperspace lane access and was willing to give up half of its precious and expensive teniline supply for access to them.

Recall that the Citadel trilogy features frequent references to the importance of the secret Nexus Route, such as how it will tip the scales of the war and allow surprise attacks on Coruscant that could cripple the Republic and Jedi.

Recall that "Padawan Lost" features unending warfare at Felucia, which is near a "major hyperspace lane". Why expend such resources for a worthless lump of pretty-planted rock if hyperspace lanes are just convenient, not vital? They were apparently still fighting for Felucia in RotS!

Put simply, you have no case, only your assertions.

Note that I have not disagreed that going off-lane is possible . . . I just assert, based on the evidence you seek to avoid, that it isn't very useful at all. As I said:

"Note that my suggested interpretation here doesn't mean that you can't go off-road, but that it doesn't apparently do you much good. It may be significantly, vastly slower, or more costly in fuel, or it may simply be that there is not sufficient infrastructure for refuelling and such at all. We don't know. But what we do know is that whatever the reason, the Separatists in TCW never just drove up to Coruscant by bypassing all the Republic defenses. We know this happened in RotS, but that is presumably related to the Nexus Route, a known secret road."

So with this in mind, let us once again ponder your Hoth argument. I previously replied thusly:

"Even your Hoth example is provided in a question-begging manner . . . it makes more sense to understand it with regards to hyperlanes for consistency than to claim it supports your point because racecar."

You claim that having a base near a hyperlane leaves them vulnerable and would thus be silly, and that therefore they were not near a hyperlane. You then extend the concept further and argue that since your conclusion is that they were not near a hyperlane, that therefore the Empire found them via probe droid which reported back that travel was safe (despite the fact that the probe droid was dropped off in the same system by an ISD anyway) or that the Empire quickly mapped out a hyperlane to allow Death Squadron access.

But as I noted, the very first step in your chain begs the question by assuming they could've set up a base somewhere away from the hyperlanes. If it wasn't plausible to do that, then it wasn't silly to do the reverse. If it takes you fifty years to go a hundred light-years off the hyperlanes (for example), then you're simply not going to go too far off the beaten path.

You can continue to pretend I haven't addressed your argument, but if you don't realize that the first step is a stumble and that the first step being a stumble negates the Usain Bolt Gold Medal run that you feel you've constructed, I can't help you.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:07 pm

Sothis wrote:My issue with this is that the speed is not necessarily dependent on hyperlanes, but rather, the ability to use that speed safely. The Falcon had no trouble simply popping off into hyperspace whenever it needed to, the Rebels never mentioned lanes, and nor did the Imperial forces in any part of the Original Trilogy. Nor are they mentioned in the Prequel Trilogy.

The only mention I can find of hyperlanes via this page is that it’s all about safe passage, and hyperdrive remains fast regardless (albeit more dangerous) when used outside of these lanes. A would-be Imperial invasion force has access to probe droids and could deploy scoutships to survey the area. They could also trade with locals for maps. It isn’t a given that they would be bogged down for long, if at all.
No, that's everything and don't just go by Wookiepedia, as they have a lot of now very non-canon information mixed in with the canon. But tell me, did you even watch the Clone Wars movie or the CGI series it is based on? The whole damn plot revolved around saving Jabba's son from CIS agents so that the Republic in turn could make use of the Hutt's hyperlanes to travel through:

A galaxy divided! Striking swiftly after the battle of Geonosis, Count Dooku's droid army has seized control of the major Hyperspace lanes. Separating the Republic from the majority of it's Clone army. With few clones available, the Jedi generals cannot gain a foothold in the Outer Rim, as more and more planets choose to join Dooku's Separatists. While the Jedi are occupied fighting a war, no one is left to keep the peace. Chaos and crime spread and the innocent become victims in a lawless galaxy. Crime lord Jabba the Hutt's son has been kidnapped by a rival band of pirates. Desperate to save his son, Jabba puts out a call for help. A call the Jedi are cautious to answer...

The Republic should have enough resources to send out probe droids and scout ships to search out new routes, shouldn't they? So why do they have to go to the Hutts to make a treaty to use their hyperlanes (or hyper lanes depending on the source)? Becuase it takes too damn long, that's why, and it would be even worse in a galaxy they have never been to and have no starting relations with any of the poltitical factions there. At any rate, the Empire is not going to run rampant through Federation space.
Sothis wrote:My issue with this is that the speed is not necessarily dependent on hyperlanes, but rather, the ability to use that speed safely. The Falcon had no trouble simply popping off into hyperspace whenever it needed to, the Rebels never mentioned lanes, and nor did the Imperial forces in any part of the Original Trilogy. Nor are they mentioned in the Prequel Trilogy.

The only mention I can find of hyperlanes via this page is that it’s all about safe passage, and hyperdrive remains fast regardless (albeit more dangerous) when used outside of these lanes. A would-be Imperial invasion force has access to probe droids and could deploy scoutships to survey the area. They could also trade with locals for maps. It isn’t a given that they would be bogged down for long, if at all.
It is. Without safe routes, speed is meangingless, if you fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova. And no, the Falcon did not just zip off however it pleased. It required at least a minute or two to get the calculations for the jump from the navicomputer. With the hyperlanes being part of the Clone Wars movie and series, this is now codified into the true Star Wars canon, and as such, you cannot dismiss it, no matter how much you may not like the implications for the Versus debate. Star Wars ships cannot travel safely without them and it will be a long time in scouting out the new routes, again no matter how you try and handwave, its still there. And it will not be easy necessarily to trade for starcharts as negotiations could drag on for weeks or months.
Sothis wrote:Going by the thread on Starfleet Jedi that Mike linked to, the discussion on warp speeds here establishes a great many inconsistencies with warp speeds across the shows. What we do know is indisputable, is that it would have taken Voyager, at maximum warp (which I take to be the maximum cruising speed of warp 9) seventy-five years to get back to Federation space. It is possible for a ship to reach warp 9.9 for short periods, but even the Galaxy-class Enterprise-D could only maintain such a speed for a limited time before being forced to slow down.
You didn't read the thread very much, did you? If you had, you'd know that there are many very fast warp speed examples, most of which are to be found in well-charted space. On top of that, you are clearly ignorant of the canon, or are operating on out of date information. In "Caretaker", Janeway does say that it would take 75 years to get back. But a few episodes later in "Eye of the Needle", Ensign Kim says that it will take 70 years. Why the change? The 70 year number is the basis for all later estimates. The explanation is simple: Neelix was their guide at the time and given that we later know that good navigational data will trim off the time by many years, it stands to reason that Neelix's help likely did the same.

Furthermore, Voyager was not ever going at her maximum speed as this line from "Distant Origins" demonstates:

VEER: It's the plasma signature. Scanners have found a match. A ship ninety light years away. There are one hundred forty eight lifeforms aboard, travelling at warp six point two.

Warp 6.2, not warp 9 or warp 9.975 (Voyager's actual maximum stated cruise speed from "Caretaker" and "Relativity"). But given how navigational data affects warp speed, this is not surprising.

Oh and in the future, I would greatly appreciate you reading through what I link you to, not just brushing it off. It saves a lot of time here and you would've known in detail about the navigational data issue as well. So please reread it and then comment on that.
Sothis wrote:To be honest, I’m not sure where a misrepresentation occurs. I state that ‘In ‘Favour the Bold’, Weyoun speaks of the movement of two large fleets (which we later learn that combined form around 600 ships). This is true. Weyoun asks Damar ‘Two large enemy fleets suddenly break off from the front lines and you have no idea why?’ Weyoun and Dukat then discuss sending a large fleet to stop them. What the total fleet size may have been is irrelevant – we know the size of the fleet that the Federation was forced to send to Deep Space Nine was considered significant (enough for the Dominion to send what they considered to be a large force to stop them).
It is a misrepresentation, deliberate or otherwise since you leave out other critical information that help form a more accurate understanding of the situation. I provide this quote from "Favor the Bold" that helps clarify it far better than what you are trying to portray:

SISKO: By putting together a task force comprised of elements from the Second, Fifth and Ninth fleets, I believe that we can retake Deep Space Nine, the most important piece of real estate in the quadrant.
SITAK: Your plan, Captain Sisko, is not without merit. However, I remain sceptical. The Dominion will undoubtedly send a large fleet to stop you.
SISKO: And it will divert their forces and slow their advance into Federation territory.


This is well before your information when Sisko first proposes his plan to go on the offensive and retake Deep Space Nine. Let me also provide additional context to your information that makes what you say a misrepresentation:

DAMAR: Sir, I have new information on enemy fleet movements.
DUKAT: Go ahead.
DAMAR: The Second Fleet has fallen back past the Kotanka System, while the Fifth Fleet has pulled out of the fighting along the Vulcan border. Both fleets have converged here, Starbase three seven five.
DUKAT: Isn't that where Captain Sisko is stationed?
DAMAR: He's been made an adjutant to Admiral Ross.
WEYOUN: Good for him. Now why have those fleets gathered there?
DAMAR: I'm not sure.
WEYOUN: You're not sure? Two large enemy fleets break off from the front lines and rendezvous at a starbase and you have no idea why?
WEYOUN: See that you do.

(Weyoun leaves.)

DAMAR: He should speak to you with greater respect.
DUKAT: Some day, I'll let you teach him that lesson. But right now, there's something more pressing I need you to do. It's of a personal nature, a matter of some delicacy. It's about my daughter.
DAMAR: Ziyal?
DUKAT:We've had a misunderstanding. I want you to go and convince her to speak with me.
DAMAR: Sir, I really feel I would be more valuable tracking the enemy fleet.
DUKAT:I've given you an order, Damar. We're on the verge of a great victory, and when it comes I want my daughter at my side. Is that understood?


This is the entire scene that your quote comes from, start to finish. At this point, neither Dukat, Damar, nor Weyon order ships to be sent to stop the Federation forces. They have no idea where they're going or why. They are only aware that those forces, which are actually only elements of two of the three above stated fleets are leaving the front.

Later, after it is learned that the minefield is about to be pulled down:

ROSS: Are you sure this is reliable?
SISKO: I've known the courier for five years. I trust him.
ROSS: Then we have a problem. According to this, the minefield's coming down in three days. The Ninth Fleet won't be here for at least four.
SISKO: Then I suggest we go without them.
ROSS: What about the Klingons?
SISKO: Looks like we go without them too. We've run out of time, Admiral.
ROSS: If those Dominion reinforcements come through the wormhole we'll have lost everything.
SISKO: We take the ships we have, fight our way to Deep Space Nine and destroy that anti-graviton emitter. It's our only hope.
ROSS: Do it.


The Ninth fleet elements could not make it in time to join up with the other two. So go back and look at how you presented it in your original work:
Sothis wrote:As per the Dominion War, the Federation could absorb loses of several hundred vessels without being massively compromised, although it was still at a rate deemed unacceptable and unsustainable. In ‘Favour the Bold’, Weyoun speaks of the movement of two large fleets (which we later learn that combined form around 600 ships). Dukat speaks of concern about diverting a large fleet (which is stated to be 1,254 ships) to stop the Federation advance. 2,800 ships are the sum of the Dominion reinforcements through the wormhole, and combined with the existing Dominion fleet in the Alpha Quadrant, this force was meant to spell the end of both the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

The Empire has, according to Expanded Universe sources, 25,000 Star Destroyers at its disposal. They also have an unknown number of support vessels (frigates, destroyers and such), although to patrol a million star systems they presumably have a reasonably sized fleet to do the job. Winner: Empire.
So here is the quote you cite above, in it's complete form and which takes place well after the above:

DUKAT: Our initial intelligence reports have been verified. The Federation fleet is on the move.
WEYOUN: Do we know their destination?
DUKAT: Yes. It appears they're headed here.
WEYOUN: Here? Oh. He knows we're taking down the minefield. Someone must've got a message out.
DUKAT: So it would seem.
WEYOUN: No matter. We'll crush them.
DUKAT: Yes. Yes, we will. But in order to do that, I'm going to have to pull a significant number of our ships off the front lines.
WEYOUN: Do it.


Yes, it is true that Dukat speaks of concern above pulling a large number of ships, but they are pulling enough to crush the fleet that was heading towards them. They are not aware at all of the Ninth fleet just as you were not and the fact that it was to be part of that fleet, which was then hastily sent to try and stop the minefield from being brought down. It is not the sum of what the Federation was intending for the original operation. We have no idea what the total number was to be.

As for the fleet numbers from the 2nd and 5th fleets:

O'BRIEN: I'm picking something up. It's a large Dominion fleet bearing zero zero four mark zero zero nine.
SISKO: How large?
O'BRIEN: Twelve hundred and fifty four ships.
BASHIR: They outnumber us two to one.


Bashir doesn't say "They outnumber us two point zero nine to one" he exactly states 2 to 1. So 1,254 divided by 2 = 627. Simple math. So it was a fleet clearly in excess of 600 ships. Given that Bashir has long been revealed by this point to be an augment with super intelligence and mathematical ability, I don't think he'd just roughly halve the numbers.
Sothis wrote:Ok, fair enough, if we follow this idea that the Dominion forces outnumbered the Klingons 20-1 then there’s a fair point to be had about numbers. It’s conceivable that the Federation and its allies have managed to build up their forces during wartime to something like 10,000 vessels (assuming they haven’t refitted and recommissioned older ships in an effort to boost their numbers, which would explain the large number of Miranda-class designs seen throughout the war).
Okay, thank you for conceding that. The relevant quote from "When it Rains..." :

O'BRIEN: Basically we stumbled onto it by accident. At Chin'toka, our entire fleet was disabled when the Breen engaged their energy dampening weapon. Three hundred and eleven ships, Federation, Romulan, and Klingon, all lost power.
SISKO: But one didn't. A Bird of Prey called the Ki'tang.
ROSS: Why? What was different about the Ki'tang?
O'BRIEN: We're not really sure. The only thing we can figure is that just prior to the engagement, their Chief Engineer adjusted the tritium intermix to compensate for a containment problem in the warp core.
MARTOK: I've ordered every ship in the Klingon fleet to adjust its reactor the same way.
ROMULAN: Our vessels are of a different design. Can this technique be adapted to protect them as well?
SISKO: Unfortunately, no. Your ships are still vulnerable, and so are ours.
O'BRIEN: I've sent everything we know about the Breen weapon to the Romulan Ministry of Science and to Starfleet Engineering, but realistically, it's going take be a while before they can figure out a way to protect our ships.
SISKO: Thank you, Mister O'Brien.

(O'Brien leaves.)

ROSS: Well, gentlemen, it seems as if the Klingon fleet is the only thing that stands between us and the Dominion.
ROMULAN: What have we come to?
MARTOK: By tomorrow, we'll have fifteen hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment.
ROMULAN: With the Breen, the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar, you're still outnumbered twenty to one.
MARTOK: I am aware of that, General.
SISKO: Obviously the Klingons can't go head to head with the Dominion, but they may be able to keep them distracted.


The important pieces of information here are that the Klingons will have 1,500 ships ready with the modification the next day, but that they will be outnumbered 20-to-1. You speculate that the Federation and allied may be bringing older ships back into service, but while that is possible, do bear in mind that this is all occurring two years after the start of the Dominion War, the heavy losses suffered in the second Borg invasion and the skirmishing with the Klingons (due to Changeling influence) in what must be at least a thousand or more Federation vessels lost. Also, it may be that the Federation not only ramped up its ship production but may also have called back other ships from other areas of its territory, especially from deep space assignments, and from border patrols once the Romulans entered the war as allies, thus taking pressure off the Federation and Klingons there. But the Federation was willing to take many more losses near the end of the war to finish things once and for all as this quote from "The Dogs of War" illustrates:

ROSS: According to our intelligence reports, the Dominion has withdrawn completely from Klingon, Federation and Romulan space. They seem to be forming a new defensive perimeter within Cardassian territory.
VELAL: They must know we've developed a countermeasure to the Breen weapon.
SISKO: That would be my guess.
MARTOK: There are advantages to falling back. They shorten their own supply lines while forcing us to lengthen ours.
ROSS: And with a smaller perimeter they're less vulnerable to hit and run attacks. It would take a major offensive to break through their lines.
VELAL: At a cost of thousands of ships. The wiser course would be to simply contain them within their perimeter.
SISKO: That's what they're hoping we'll do, give them time to rebuild their forces.
MARTOK: He's right. We have them on the defensive. We should hit them with everything we've got.
ROSS: Break through that line would be a very ugly, very bloody job.
SISKO: If we do nothing, the Dominion could sit behind that perimeter for the next five years rearming themselves. And when they're ready to come out, God help us all.
MARTOK: The Klingon Empire votes to attack now before they have time to recover.
ROSS: Considering the alternatives, I'm afraid I have to concur.
VELAL: Very well.
SISKO: Then it's settled. We attack.


So in a full-out final offensive, many thousands of ships would be involved and thousands could be lost. We also get to see a megafleet around Cardassia that illustrates this:

Image
Image
Image

So to sum up, the Federation is not limited to putting together a large fleet of only 627 ships, but was capable of much larger fleets when called upon, even after suffering years of heavy losses. With the EU gone, I'd like you to show me evidence of fleets beyond trying to claim that the Death Stars = uberfleets argument. Show me where the Empire or Republic had anything like that.
Sothis wrote:It’s true that the construction of the Death Star doesn’t automatically mean the Empire can build millions of ships, but it’s not an unreasonable belief that if the Empire can build such a mammoth construct, then it can also build a large number of ships over a similar length of time. The Death Star is a specialised piece of engineering, far more complex than a ship, and even if it wasn’t built in secret (and it’s not unreasonable to think it was, given the second one was), it still represents a feat of engineering that places the Empire far beyond anything the Federation has done. Whether the CIS designed it or not is irrelevant – what is relevant is that the Empire built it, and they had completed more than half a second station in less than three years, an even bigger achievement.


Where do you get the 3 year number from? The RoTJ novelization on page one specifically notes that it had been "many years" since the Battle of Yavin. Three years is not "many", but a few. So I would say at least 5 years had gone by. Furthermore, how complex is the Death Star? Does it actually have engines, or is it only equipped with hyperdrive? When the battlestation orbits Yavin Prime, it does not seem to be doing a powered orbit. As for the CIS angle, yes that is important as the battlestation had not only been already designed, but under construction as well too by the time of that scene at the end of RoTS, so the Empire dd not do all the work, someone else had done a big chunk of it for them.

And I note that you haven't addressed the Starbase = starships built angle, either. So just remember, the door swings both ways.
Sothis wrote:What is the quote from the ANH novelisation that suggests the Empire only controls one part of a modest galaxy?

The Jedi Archives reference depends on whether the map and 'zoom in' function (and the same applies to Padme's graphic) are 100% accurate representations of the Star Wars galaxy, rather than easy-to-use representations for the sake of navigation points.

The million-systems quote seems fairly specific. Tarkin explicitly tells Leia the Death Star will 'bind the million systems of the Empire together once and for all'. The key phrase here is 'million systems of the Empire.'

It's worth pointing out that the events from earlier in the timeline of TPM and AOTC obviously cannot take into account any aggressive expansion of the Empire, and the statements from these films and their novelisations do not necessarily contradict the ANH novelisation as a result. In fact, the literal interpretation of the 'split in two' statement from AOTC does not mean 'split 50/50'. It could be that the separatist worlds represented a significant portion of the Republic's economic strength, which the Republic was not prepared to sacrifice.

Imagine if the city of London decided to cede from the United Kingdom. In terms of total surface area London is a small percentage of the country, but in terms of economic and political significance, it is the most important part of the country. The UK would never willingly let London declare itself an independent territory as a result.
Let's see here, you are claiming you've never heard this and the other quotes:

ANH novel, ch. 6, page 73

"The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion."

ANH novel, ch. 7 . . . Tarkin's speech to Leia:

"This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the galactic Empire together once and for all."

After Alderaan's destruction, Vader checks the display again. From Chapter 8:

"Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.

It would take a microbreakdown of a portion of this map to reveal a slight reduction in spatial mass, caused by the disappearance of Alderaan. Alderaan, with its many cities, farms, factories, and towns -- and traitors, Vader reminded himself.

Despite his advances and intricate technological methods of annihilation, the actions of mankind remained unnoticeable to an uncaring, unimaginably vast universe."

At most there are a million star system in the Empire and that in turn represented only a small part of a modest (read smaller than Milky Way sized galaxy).

The rest of your argument is the same one I've heard before. "But the CIS didn't make up that much of the Republic!". Really? What proof do you have of this? Just as easily, I can point to the American Civil War, where literally half of the United States went to war with the other half. What we do know from the opening scrawl and other information in AoTC is that several thousand solar systems defected and joined another number that had already split off. Palpatine states this was a halving. What else is there?

The expansion theory for the Empire I think is probably your strongest counter argument, but it rides solely on the idea that Tarkin was being absolutely truthful in his boasting to Leia. Now Leia doesn't dispute his number, other than to spit back that the more the Empire tries to crack down, the more systems will slip away. On the other hand, maybe Tarkin was exaggerating and maybe the Empire had laid claim to many planets, but not sent any troops or other military units to enforce it.

What examples do you have to support vast real-time communications for the Federation, and can these systems operate over the same sort of distances as the holo-net?
Lots of times throughout TNG, DS9, and yes, even VOY. Like this from "The Die is Cast":

TAIN [on monitor]: Since the Jem'Hadar are genetically addicted to a drug that only the Founders can provide, we expect the Jem'Hadar to weaken and die once their supplies of the drug run out. A matter of days by our estimates. However, that will give them enough time to stage some kind of counterattack against the Alpha Quadrant, so I suggest you place the Cardassian fleet on alert. I take this action not in defiance of the Cardassian state, but in defence of it. You in the Central Command have neglected the security of our people and allowed peace with Bajor and the Federation to blind you to the real threat, the Dominion. I intend to remove that threat. Let history be my judge.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: That message was intercepted by a Federation outpost earlier today. A similar message was sent to the Romulan Senate. Now, both governments are denying any prior knowledge of Tain's plans and calling this a rogue operation.
BASHIR: Are they going to do anything to stop Tain?
TODDMAN [on monitor]: Both the Romulans and the Cardassians claim to be studying ways to stop Tain, but we believe that they'll just sit back and wait to see if he succeeds or not.
DAX: But sir, that could plunge Romulus and Cardassia into war with the Dominion.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: Only if he fails, Lieutenant. His plan looks like it has a fair chance of success. He's commanding a fleet of twenty ships manned by combat veterans. They know the location of the Founders' homeworld and they've modified their cloaks so the Jem'Hadar can't detect their approach.
KIRA: It sounds like you're hoping Tain will succeed.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: I never hope for war, Major. But if it comes, I'd rather see the Dominion on the losing side. However, we have to plan for the worst. Ben, I want you to evacuate DS Nine of all non-essential personnel and put the Defiant on standby alert. Even if Tain succeeds, the Jem'Hadar are going to come screaming out of the wormhole looking for revenge and they may not be too particular who their targets are.
SISKO: Admiral, we believe Security Chief Odo is aboard one of the Romulan ships.
EDDINGTON: Odo's message said the runabout had been caught in a tractor beam. That suggests he was captured and taken aboard one of their ships.
SISKO: I'd like permission to take the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant and try to determine if he's still alive.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: I'm sorry about your officer, but there's nothing we can do. I want the Defiant guarding Bajor. That's your top priority. Toddman out.


So, while sometimes messages do get sent (like Tain's) via prerecorded means, there are others, like the rest of that scene, where they are all in real time. Even in the ENT-era there are such examples such as in "Silent Enemy", where the crew lays down a series of subspace relay satellites which let them communicate all the way back to Earth in real time.
-Mike

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Sothis » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:37 pm

I had hoped to offer up a comprehensive reply to both Mike and 2046 tonight - unfortunately my laptop's charger has decided to die. I'm typing this via phone so if there are more typos than usual don't be surprised!

Barring any disasters (such as today's fruitless rain-soaked quest for a replacement), I should get back online properly tomorrow. It's that a long wait!

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Sothis » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:24 pm

Right, now that I have a little time, I will try to respond. Mike, since your post is the longest, I'll respond to this first, though I can't promise I'll make it through the entire thing in one go.
Mike DiCenso wrote:
Sothis wrote:My issue with this is that the speed is not necessarily dependent on hyperlanes, but rather, the ability to use that speed safely. The Falcon had no trouble simply popping off into hyperspace whenever it needed to, the Rebels never mentioned lanes, and nor did the Imperial forces in any part of the Original Trilogy. Nor are they mentioned in the Prequel Trilogy.
The only mention I can find of hyperlanes via this page is that it’s all about safe passage, and hyperdrive remains fast regardless (albeit more dangerous) when used outside of these lanes. A would-be Imperial invasion force has access to probe droids and could deploy scoutships to survey the area. They could also trade with locals for maps. It isn’t a given that they would be bogged down for long, if at all.
No, that's everything and don't just go by Wookiepedia, as they have a lot of now very non-canon information mixed in with the canon. But tell me, did you even watch the Clone Wars movie or the CGI series it is based on? The whole damn plot revolved around saving Jabba's son from CIS agents so that the Republic in turn could make use of the Hutt's hyperlanes to travel through:
A galaxy divided! Striking swiftly after the battle of Geonosis, Count Dooku's droid army has seized control of the major Hyperspace lanes. Separating the Republic from the majority of it's Clone army. With few clones available, the Jedi generals cannot gain a foothold in the Outer Rim, as more and more planets choose to join Dooku's Separatists. While the Jedi are occupied fighting a war, no one is left to keep the peace. Chaos and crime spread and the innocent become victims in a lawless galaxy. Crime lord Jabba the Hutt's son has been kidnapped by a rival band of pirates. Desperate to save his son, Jabba puts out a call for help. A call the Jedi are cautious to answer...
The Republic should have enough resources to send out probe droids and scout ships to search out new routes, shouldn't they? So why do they have to go to the Hutts to make a treaty to use their hyperlanes (or hyper lanes depending on the source)? Becuase it takes too damn long, that's why, and it would be even worse in a galaxy they have never been to and have no starting relations with any of the poltitical factions there. At any rate, the Empire is not going to run rampant through Federation space.
In a time of all-out-war, how easy or straight-forward is it to scout new, safe routes? This was a galactic-wide war for survival, with both sides stretched and fighting raged fiercely everywhere. There's nothing to suggest scouting lanes is a laborious process of itself - in my discussions with 2046, I point out the very real possibility that the Rebels set their base on Hoth off the beaten track (as it were), which makes sense - you won't set up your most important facility near where it can be gotten to easily by any and all passersby. Nor is it a stretch to think that the Empire, in near-complete control of the galaxy and not burdened by a large war like the Republic was, would have more time to spare toward scouting new routes and pathways (and I'll be going into more detail on that in my reply to him).

This isn't a matter of laying down concrete and building - it's a matter of scouting, and learning the location of navigation hazards. Everything in space moves relative to everything else, so to maintain hyperlanes would require a regular system of scouts and sensor scans and the updating of charts anyway. It isn't a stretch to believe, in peace-time, more efforts could be spared to scouting new routes, and it isn't a stretch to believe they can do the same in Federation space.
My issue with this is that the speed is not necessarily dependent on hyperlanes, but rather, the ability to use that speed safely. The Falcon had no trouble simply popping off into hyperspace whenever it needed to, the Rebels never mentioned lanes, and nor did the Imperial forces in any part of the Original Trilogy. Nor are they mentioned in the Prequel Trilogy.

The only mention I can find of hyperlanes via this page is that it’s all about safe passage, and hyperdrive remains fast regardless (albeit more dangerous) when used outside of these lanes. A would-be Imperial invasion force has access to probe droids and could deploy scoutships to survey the area. They could also trade with locals for maps. It isn’t a given that they would be bogged down for long, if at all.
It is. Without safe routes, speed is meangingless, if you fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova. And no, the Falcon did not just zip off however it pleased. It required at least a minute or two to get the calculations for the jump from the navicomputer. With the hyperlanes being part of the Clone Wars movie and series, this is now codified into the true Star Wars canon, and as such, you cannot dismiss it, no matter how much you may not like the implications for the Versus debate. Star Wars ships cannot travel safely without them and it will be a long time in scouting out the new routes, again no matter how you try and handwave, its still there. And it will not be easy necessarily to trade for starcharts as negotiations could drag on for weeks or months.
As mentioned earlier in these discussion, I do not claim going into hyperspace outside of a lane is safe. I do not claim it is advisable. I do claim it is possible, and thus far, have seen nothing to suggest it is impossible. It may be ill-advised, it may be the recourse of the desperate, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

The Falcon's navi-computer was probably looking for a safe route but this doesn't automatically mean it had to find the nearest designated hyperlane. It was probably looking for a route with no or few potential hazards, which is what sensors and starcharts would be for. This doesn't have to be a designated hyperlane. This does not have to be an one or the other situation, and nor do I believe this to be the case.
Sothis wrote:Going by the thread on Starfleet Jedi that Mike linked to, the discussion on warp speeds here establishes a great many inconsistencies with warp speeds across the shows. What we do know is indisputable, is that it would have taken Voyager, at maximum warp (which I take to be the maximum cruising speed of warp 9) seventy-five years to get back to Federation space. It is possible for a ship to reach warp 9.9 for short periods, but even the Galaxy-class Enterprise-D could only maintain such a speed for a limited time before being forced to slow down.
You didn't read the thread very much, did you? If you had, you'd know that there are many very fast warp speed examples, most of which are to be found in well-charted space. On top of that, you are clearly ignorant of the canon, or are operating on out of date information. In "Caretaker", Janeway does say that it would take 75 years to get back. But a few episodes later in "Eye of the Needle", Ensign Kim says that it will take 70 years. Why the change? The 70 year number is the basis for all later estimates. The explanation is simple: Neelix was their guide at the time and given that we later know that good navigational data will trim off the time by many years, it stands to reason that Neelix's help likely did the same.
From http://www.chakoteya.net/voyager/101.htm: (Chakotay and Torres are in Starfleet uniform. So is Ayala.)
JANEWAY: We're alone in an uncharted part of the galaxy. We have already made some friends here, and some enemies. We have no idea of the dangers we're going to face, but one thing is clear. Both crews are going to have to work together if we're to survive. That's why Commander Chakotay and I have agreed that this should be one crew. A Starfleet crew. And as the only Starfleet vessel assigned to the Delta Quadrant, we'll continue to follow our directive to seek out new worlds and explore space. But our primary goal is clear. Even at maximum speeds, it would take seventy five years to reach the Federation, but I'm not willing to settle for that. There's another entity like the Caretaker out there somewhere who has the ability to get us there a lot faster. We'll be looking for her, and we'll be looking for wormholes, spatial rifts, or new technologies to help us. Somewhere along this journey, we'll find a way back. Mister Paris, set a course for home.
PARIS: Aye, Captain.

So, initially at least, it was going to take 75 years, at maximum speeds. This is a pretty definitive statement from Captain Janeway. Shaving off five years due to navigation data does not make this any less of a decades-long trip.
Furthermore, Voyager was not ever going at her maximum speed as this line from "Distant Origins" demonstates:

VEER: It's the plasma signature. Scanners have found a match. A ship ninety light years away. There are one hundred forty eight lifeforms aboard, travelling at warp six point two.

Warp 6.2, not warp 9 or warp 9.975 (Voyager's actual maximum stated cruise speed from "Caretaker" and "Relativity"). But given how navigational data affects warp speed, this is not surprising.
Voyager would often slow down or even stop to poke at various sites of interest on its journey home. And Janeway did not say 'maximum cruise speeds' in Caretaker, only 'maximum speeds'. It is more likely that Voyager cannot sustain warp 9 indefinitely, owing to strain on the engines, and has to slow down periodically to reduce wear and tear.
Oh and in the future, I would greatly appreciate you reading through what I link you to, not just brushing it off. It saves a lot of time here and you would've known in detail about the navigational data issue as well. So please reread it and then comment on that.
Fair enough, but appreciate that I work full-time, and I have responsibilities as a father too. On top of that, I have a lot of competing demands on my time, so going through several pages of technical stuff... it's not something I have a lot of time to devote to.
Sothis wrote:To be honest, I’m not sure where a misrepresentation occurs. I state that ‘In ‘Favour the Bold’, Weyoun speaks of the movement of two large fleets (which we later learn that combined form around 600 ships). This is true. Weyoun asks Damar ‘Two large enemy fleets suddenly break off from the front lines and you have no idea why?’ Weyoun and Dukat then discuss sending a large fleet to stop them. What the total fleet size may have been is irrelevant – we know the size of the fleet that the Federation was forced to send to Deep Space Nine was considered significant (enough for the Dominion to send what they considered to be a large force to stop them).
It is a misrepresentation, deliberate or otherwise since you leave out other critical information that help form a more accurate understanding of the situation. I provide this quote from "Favor the Bold" that helps clarify it far better than what you are trying to portray:

SISKO: By putting together a task force comprised of elements from the Second, Fifth and Ninth fleets, I believe that we can retake Deep Space Nine, the most important piece of real estate in the quadrant.
SITAK: Your plan, Captain Sisko, is not without merit. However, I remain sceptical. The Dominion will undoubtedly send a large fleet to stop you.
SISKO: And it will divert their forces and slow their advance into Federation territory.


This is well before your information when Sisko first proposes his plan to go on the offensive and retake Deep Space Nine. Let me also provide additional context to your information that makes what you say a misrepresentation:
DAMAR: Sir, I have new information on enemy fleet movements.
DUKAT: Go ahead.
DAMAR: The Second Fleet has fallen back past the Kotanka System, while the Fifth Fleet has pulled out of the fighting along the Vulcan border. Both fleets have converged here, Starbase three seven five.
DUKAT: Isn't that where Captain Sisko is stationed?
DAMAR: He's been made an adjutant to Admiral Ross.
WEYOUN: Good for him. Now why have those fleets gathered there?
DAMAR: I'm not sure.
WEYOUN: You're not sure? Two large enemy fleets break off from the front lines and rendezvous at a starbase and you have no idea why?
WEYOUN: See that you do.

(Weyoun leaves.)

DAMAR: He should speak to you with greater respect.
DUKAT: Some day, I'll let you teach him that lesson. But right now, there's something more pressing I need you to do. It's of a personal nature, a matter of some delicacy. It's about my daughter.
DAMAR: Ziyal?
DUKAT:We've had a misunderstanding. I want you to go and convince her to speak with me.
DAMAR: Sir, I really feel I would be more valuable tracking the enemy fleet.
DUKAT:I've given you an order, Damar. We're on the verge of a great victory, and when it comes I want my daughter at my side. Is that understood?

This is the entire scene that your quote comes from, start to finish. At this point, neither Dukat, Damar, nor Weyon order ships to be sent to stop the Federation forces. They have no idea where they're going or why. They are only aware that those forces, which are actually only elements of two of the three above stated fleets are leaving the front.

Later, after it is learned that the minefield is about to be pulled down:

ROSS: Are you sure this is reliable?
SISKO: I've known the courier for five years. I trust him.
ROSS: Then we have a problem. According to this, the minefield's coming down in three days. The Ninth Fleet won't be here for at least four.
SISKO: Then I suggest we go without them.
ROSS: What about the Klingons?
SISKO: Looks like we go without them too. We've run out of time, Admiral.
ROSS: If those Dominion reinforcements come through the wormhole we'll have lost everything.
SISKO: We take the ships we have, fight our way to Deep Space Nine and destroy that anti-graviton emitter. It's our only hope.
ROSS: Do it.
The Ninth fleet elements could not make it in time to join up with the other two. So go back and look at how you presented it in your original work:
Sothis wrote:As per the Dominion War, the Federation could absorb loses of several hundred vessels without being massively compromised, although it was still at a rate deemed unacceptable and unsustainable. In ‘Favour the Bold’, Weyoun speaks of the movement of two large fleets (which we later learn that combined form around 600 ships). Dukat speaks of concern about diverting a large fleet (which is stated to be 1,254 ships) to stop the Federation advance. 2,800 ships are the sum of the Dominion reinforcements through the wormhole, and combined with the existing Dominion fleet in the Alpha Quadrant, this force was meant to spell the end of both the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

The Empire has, according to Expanded Universe sources, 25,000 Star Destroyers at its disposal. They also have an unknown number of support vessels (frigates, destroyers and such), although to patrol a million star systems they presumably have a reasonably sized fleet to do the job. Winner: Empire.
So here is the quote you cite above, in it's complete form and which takes place well after the above:

DUKAT: Our initial intelligence reports have been verified. The Federation fleet is on the move.
WEYOUN: Do we know their destination?
DUKAT: Yes. It appears they're headed here.
WEYOUN: Here? Oh. He knows we're taking down the minefield. Someone must've got a message out.
DUKAT: So it would seem.
WEYOUN: No matter. We'll crush them.
DUKAT: Yes. Yes, we will. But in order to do that, I'm going to have to pull a significant number of our ships off the front lines.
WEYOUN: Do it.
Yes, it is true that Dukat speaks of concern above pulling a large number of ships, but they are pulling enough to crush the fleet that was heading towards them. They are not aware at all of the Ninth fleet just as you were not and the fact that it was to be part of that fleet, which was then hastily sent to try and stop the minefield from being brought down. It is not the sum of what the Federation was intending for the original operation. We have no idea what the total number was to be.
Again, I am not sure what misrepresentation is occurring here. I point out that Weyoun refers to the movement of two large fleets - this is true. To quote your own passage from the show:

WEYOUN:You're not sure? Two large enemy fleets break off from the front lines and rendezvous at a starbase and you have no idea why?

So, two fleets move off from the front lines, and these two fleets are both considered large to Weyoun. When combined these fleets form over 600 vessels. So suggesting these sorts of numbers represent large fleets to the major players in the Alpha Quadrant is not unreasonable, certainly not for that stage of the war.

DUKAT: Yes. Yes, we will. But in order to do that, I'm going to have to pull a significant number of our ships off the front lines.

They don't need to be aware of the Ninth Fleet as the Ninth Fleet is a non-entity in this fight. They felt the need to commit a 'significant number of ships' to stop what had already been described as 'two large fleets'. It doesn't matter whether the Ninth Fleet was supposed to be a part of this battle or not - it wasn't, and whatever numbers it may have brought, are irrelevant. Weyoun and Dukat are discussing the actual fleets involved, and they are described as 'large' and 'significant'.
As for the fleet numbers from the 2nd and 5th fleets:

O'BRIEN: I'm picking something up. It's a large Dominion fleet bearing zero zero four mark zero zero nine.
SISKO: How large?
O'BRIEN: Twelve hundred and fifty four ships.
BASHIR: They outnumber us two to one.


Bashir doesn't say "They outnumber us two point zero nine to one" he exactly states 2 to 1. So 1,254 divided by 2 = 627. Simple math. So it was a fleet clearly in excess of 600 ships. Given that Bashir has long been revealed by this point to be an augment with super intelligence and mathematical ability, I don't think he'd just roughly halve the numbers.
Ok fair enough, but I can't help but feel this is nitpicky. You're also assuming Bashir wasn't speaking colloquially. In any event, it doesn't significantly alter the size of the fleet.

I shall have to approach the rest another time, when I have more time.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Sothis » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:11 pm

Sothis wrote:Ok, fair enough, if we follow this idea that the Dominion forces outnumbered the Klingons 20-1 then there’s a fair point to be had about numbers. It’s conceivable that the Federation and its allies have managed to build up their forces during wartime to something like 10,000 vessels (assuming they haven’t refitted and recommissioned older ships in an effort to boost their numbers, which would explain the large number of Miranda-class designs seen throughout the war).
[quoteOkay, thank you for conceding that. The relevant quote from "When it Rains..." :

O'BRIEN: Basically we stumbled onto it by accident. At Chin'toka, our entire fleet was disabled when the Breen engaged their energy dampening weapon. Three hundred and eleven ships, Federation, Romulan, and Klingon, all lost power.
SISKO: But one didn't. A Bird of Prey called the Ki'tang.
ROSS: Why? What was different about the Ki'tang?
O'BRIEN: We're not really sure. The only thing we can figure is that just prior to the engagement, their Chief Engineer adjusted the tritium intermix to compensate for a containment problem in the warp core.
MARTOK: I've ordered every ship in the Klingon fleet to adjust its reactor the same way.
ROMULAN: Our vessels are of a different design. Can this technique be adapted to protect them as well?
SISKO: Unfortunately, no. Your ships are still vulnerable, and so are ours.
O'BRIEN: I've sent everything we know about the Breen weapon to the Romulan Ministry of Science and to Starfleet Engineering, but realistically, it's going take be a while before they can figure out a way to protect our ships.
SISKO: Thank you, Mister O'Brien.

(O'Brien leaves.)

ROSS: Well, gentlemen, it seems as if the Klingon fleet is the only thing that stands between us and the Dominion.
ROMULAN: What have we come to?
MARTOK: By tomorrow, we'll have fifteen hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment.
ROMULAN: With the Breen, the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar, you're still outnumbered twenty to one.
MARTOK: I am aware of that, General.
SISKO: Obviously the Klingons can't go head to head with the Dominion, but they may be able to keep them distracted.


The important pieces of information here are that the Klingons will have 1,500 ships ready with the modification the next day, but that they will be outnumbered 20-to-1. You speculate that the Federation and allied may be bringing older ships back into service, but while that is possible, do bear in mind that this is all occurring two years after the start of the Dominion War, the heavy losses suffered in the second Borg invasion and the skirmishing with the Klingons (due to Changeling influence) in what must be at least a thousand or more Federation vessels lost. Also, it may be that the Federation not only ramped up its ship production but may also have called back other ships from other areas of its territory, especially from deep space assignments, and from border patrols once the Romulans entered the war as allies, thus taking pressure off the Federation and Klingons there. But the Federation was willing to take many more losses near the end of the war to finish things once and for all as this quote from "The Dogs of War" illustrates:[/quote]

I would imagine the Federation, faced with all-out war, would have recalled it's deep space vessels as early as possible - right near the start of the war, or perhaps even before, given the war was inevitable once the Dominion allied with Cardassia.

I suspect a combination of things happened. The Federation ramped up ship production, but also refitted old ships and put them into battle, as they needed a quick boost to their numbers (which makes sense, in 'In the Pale Moonlight', we learn the Federation is rebuilding their shipyards, whilst the Dominion yards are operating at 100%). This would easily explain the ongoing number of Miranda-class vessels that keep turning up in nearly every battle scene. They're old, but either A: easy to build, or B: easy to refit. Or a combination of both.
ROSS: According to our intelligence reports, the Dominion has withdrawn completely from Klingon, Federation and Romulan space. They seem to be forming a new defensive perimeter within Cardassian territory.
VELAL: They must know we've developed a countermeasure to the Breen weapon.
SISKO: That would be my guess.
MARTOK: There are advantages to falling back. They shorten their own supply lines while forcing us to lengthen ours.
ROSS: And with a smaller perimeter they're less vulnerable to hit and run attacks. It would take a major offensive to break through their lines.
VELAL: At a cost of thousands of ships. The wiser course would be to simply contain them within their perimeter.
SISKO: That's what they're hoping we'll do, give them time to rebuild their forces.
MARTOK: He's right. We have them on the defensive. We should hit them with everything we've got.
ROSS: Break through that line would be a very ugly, very bloody job.
SISKO: If we do nothing, the Dominion could sit behind that perimeter for the next five years rearming themselves. And when they're ready to come out, God help us all.
MARTOK: The Klingon Empire votes to attack now before they have time to recover.
ROSS: Considering the alternatives, I'm afraid I have to concur.
VELAL: Very well.
SISKO: Then it's settled. We attack.


So in a full-out final offensive, many thousands of ships would be involved and thousands could be lost. We also get to see a megafleet around Cardassia that illustrates this:
Not disputing the numbers, only the make-up of the fleet. For the Federation fleet to grow from a scenario where 600+ vessels is seen as the combination of two large fleets, to a scenario where the Feds have 10,000 vessels, after apparently rebuilding their shipyards, suggests they were either rushing ships into service, refitting old ships, or building older designs that are quick and easy to build, which would, as I mentioned earlier, explain the ongoing use of old Miranda-class designs.
So to sum up, the Federation is not limited to putting together a large fleet of only 627 ships, but was capable of much larger fleets when called upon, even after suffering years of heavy losses. With the EU gone, I'd like you to show me evidence of fleets beyond trying to claim that the Death Stars = uberfleets argument. Show me where the Empire or Republic had anything like that.
The opening scenes of Revenge of the Sith make it clear the Republic can field large fleets too. A group of separatists made up of corporations had built a fleet to challenge them. The novelisation would seem to support this: The artificial daylight spread by the capital's orbital mirrors is
sliced by intersecting flames of ion drives and punctuated by starburst
explosions; contrails of debris raining into the atmosphere become
tangled ribbons of cloud. The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of
shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of
glowing gnats. Beings watching from rooftops of Coruscant's
endless cityscape can find it beautiful. From the inside, it's different.
The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines
are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize
a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.


So the description is pretty clear. The space above Coruscant is a maelstrom of battle. That sounds to be like a considerably large number of vessels would be involved.

Not only that, but why wouldn't the ability to put together a 120KM in diameter battlestation be indicative of advanced construction technology? If the Empire can pull together something like a Death Star, it is not unreasonable to believe they can build far smaller ships with a fair degree of ease.
Sothis wrote:It’s true that the construction of the Death Star doesn’t automatically mean the Empire can build millions of ships, but it’s not an unreasonable belief that if the Empire can build such a mammoth construct, then it can also build a large number of ships over a similar length of time. The Death Star is a specialised piece of engineering, far more complex than a ship, and even if it wasn’t built in secret (and it’s not unreasonable to think it was, given the second one was), it still represents a feat of engineering that places the Empire far beyond anything the Federation has done. Whether the CIS designed it or not is irrelevant – what is relevant is that the Empire built it, and they had completed more than half a second station in less than three years, an even bigger achievement.

Where do you get the 3 year number from? The RoTJ novelization on page one specifically notes that it had been "many years" since the Battle of Yavin. Three years is not "many", but a few. So I would say at least 5 years had gone by. Furthermore, how complex is the Death Star? Does it actually have engines, or is it only equipped with hyperdrive? When the battlestation orbits Yavin Prime, it does not seem to be doing a powered orbit. As for the CIS angle, yes that is important as the battlestation had not only been already designed, but under construction as well too by the time of that scene at the end of RoTS, so the Empire dd not do all the work, someone else had done a big chunk of it for them.
I'm sure I read the three year figure somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it. I may well be mistaken. If construction started after the first Death Star was destroyed, then it was being built at a rate that was quicker than the first.
And I note that you haven't addressed the Starbase = starships built angle, either. So just remember, the door swings both ways.
What's to address? A starbase is a lot closer in size to a starship than the Death Star is. The two feats are radically apart in terms of their complexity.
Sothis wrote:What is the quote from the ANH novelisation that suggests the Empire only controls one part of a modest galaxy?

The Jedi Archives reference depends on whether the map and 'zoom in' function (and the same applies to Padme's graphic) are 100% accurate representations of the Star Wars galaxy, rather than easy-to-use representations for the sake of navigation points.

The million-systems quote seems fairly specific. Tarkin explicitly tells Leia the Death Star will 'bind the million systems of the Empire together once and for all'. The key phrase here is 'million systems of the Empire.'

It's worth pointing out that the events from earlier in the timeline of TPM and AOTC obviously cannot take into account any aggressive expansion of the Empire, and the statements from these films and their novelisations do not necessarily contradict the ANH novelisation as a result. In fact, the literal interpretation of the 'split in two' statement from AOTC does not mean 'split 50/50'. It could be that the separatist worlds represented a significant portion of the Republic's economic strength, which the Republic was not prepared to sacrifice.

Imagine if the city of London decided to cede from the United Kingdom. In terms of total surface area London is a small percentage of the country, but in terms of economic and political significance, it is the most important part of the country. The UK would never willingly let London declare itself an independent territory as a result.
Let's see here, you are claiming you've never heard this and the other quotes:
It isn't a claim, it's the truth.
ANH novel, ch. 6, page 73

"The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion."

ANH novel, ch. 7 . . . Tarkin's speech to Leia:

"This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the galactic Empire together once and for all."

After Alderaan's destruction, Vader checks the display again. From Chapter 8:

"Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.


It would take a microbreakdown of a portion of this map to reveal a slight reduction in spatial mass, caused by the disappearance of Alderaan. Alderaan, with its many cities, farms, factories, and towns -- and traitors, Vader reminded himself.

Despite his advances and intricate technological methods of annihilation, the actions of mankind remained unnoticeable to an uncaring, unimaginably vast universe."

At most there are a million star system in the Empire and that in turn represented only a small part of a modest (read smaller than Milky Way sized galaxy).

The rest of your argument is the same one I've heard before. "But the CIS didn't make up that much of the Republic!". Really? What proof do you have of this? Just as easily, I can point to the American Civil War, where literally half of the United States went to war with the other half. What we do know from the opening scrawl and other information in AoTC is that several thousand solar systems defected and joined another number that had already split off. Palpatine states this was a halving. What else is there?
1 million systems is a small number of systems (as in a small fraction) of systems in a galaxy, regardless of how they are spread out. There is nothing to suggest they are all clustered together in one corner of the galaxy.

There are also plenty of galaxies considerable bigger than the Milky Way, which looks modest by comparison: http://www.rhysy.net/Science/GChart1.jpg
The expansion theory for the Empire I think is probably your strongest counter argument, but it rides solely on the idea that Tarkin was being absolutely truthful in his boasting to Leia. Now Leia doesn't dispute his number, other than to spit back that the more the Empire tries to crack down, the more systems will slip away. On the other hand, maybe Tarkin was exaggerating and maybe the Empire had laid claim to many planets, but not sent any troops or other military units to enforce it.
What examples do you have to support vast real-time communications for the Federation, and can these systems operate over the same sort of distances as the holo-net?
Lots of times throughout TNG, DS9, and yes, even VOY. Like this from "The Die is Cast":

TAIN [on monitor]: Since the Jem'Hadar are genetically addicted to a drug that only the Founders can provide, we expect the Jem'Hadar to weaken and die once their supplies of the drug run out. A matter of days by our estimates. However, that will give them enough time to stage some kind of counterattack against the Alpha Quadrant, so I suggest you place the Cardassian fleet on alert. I take this action not in defiance of the Cardassian state, but in defence of it. You in the Central Command have neglected the security of our people and allowed peace with Bajor and the Federation to blind you to the real threat, the Dominion. I intend to remove that threat. Let history be my judge.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: That message was intercepted by a Federation outpost earlier today. A similar message was sent to the Romulan Senate. Now, both governments are denying any prior knowledge of Tain's plans and calling this a rogue operation.
BASHIR: Are they going to do anything to stop Tain?
TODDMAN [on monitor]: Both the Romulans and the Cardassians claim to be studying ways to stop Tain, but we believe that they'll just sit back and wait to see if he succeeds or not.
DAX: But sir, that could plunge Romulus and Cardassia into war with the Dominion.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: Only if he fails, Lieutenant. His plan looks like it has a fair chance of success. He's commanding a fleet of twenty ships manned by combat veterans. They know the location of the Founders' homeworld and they've modified their cloaks so the Jem'Hadar can't detect their approach.
KIRA: It sounds like you're hoping Tain will succeed.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: I never hope for war, Major. But if it comes, I'd rather see the Dominion on the losing side. However, we have to plan for the worst. Ben, I want you to evacuate DS Nine of all non-essential personnel and put the Defiant on standby alert. Even if Tain succeeds, the Jem'Hadar are going to come screaming out of the wormhole looking for revenge and they may not be too particular who their targets are.
SISKO: Admiral, we believe Security Chief Odo is aboard one of the Romulan ships.
EDDINGTON: Odo's message said the runabout had been caught in a tractor beam. That suggests he was captured and taken aboard one of their ships.
SISKO: I'd like permission to take the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant and try to determine if he's still alive.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: I'm sorry about your officer, but there's nothing we can do. I want the Defiant guarding Bajor. That's your top priority. Toddman out.


So, while sometimes messages do get sent (like Tain's) via prerecorded means, there are others, like the rest of that scene, where they are all in real time. Even in the ENT-era there are such examples such as in "Silent Enemy", where the crew lays down a series of subspace relay satellites which let them communicate all the way back to Earth in real time.
-Mike
So, fair enough, it sounds like the Feds can transmit messages across long distances - but they do not have a Holo-Net style system to allow real-time communication anywhere in the galaxy. Obviously a network would need to be established, but the very best the Feds can achieve here is a tie, and without knowing the location of Toddman, these outposts, and the like in TDIC, we don't know a lot about the ranges involved.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by 2046 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:46 pm

Pardon me for jumping in, Mike, but I saw one point I simply couldn't not reply to:

Yes, there are larger galaxies than ours, especially those that have interacted with or absorbed others or were otherwise disturbed, and thanks for posting a size comparison of those with ours. That also misses some ultra-massive ones, like IC 1101 which has a stellar halo of 2.8 million light-years in width. It is believed to have increased in size over time due to numerous galaxy collisions.

In any case, to argue that our galaxy is modest-sized is either ill-informed or disingenuous.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a ... 1205a.html
The Milky Way is a typical large galaxy.

http://books.google.com/books?id=7RdVmD ... alaxy+size"
The Milky Way is a large galaxy and/but has an average number of stars (to within an order of magnitude) compared to galaxies generally.

http://www.eso.org/public/usa/news/eso1040/
The Milky Way is a "giant system", at least compared to early galaxies.

1a. Teachable moment, here . . . when I was trying to understand "modest-sized galaxy", I was going for an average and discounted everything below 10,000 light-years. But when an inflationist wanted to inflate the value, he immediately looked to the largest known galaxies.

This is pretty standard behavior, but worth pointing out when it happens.

At GalaxyClassStarship.Net, I would not discount the tiny dwarfs, but would instead start with the fact that the smallest Milky Way dwarfs are 500 light-years wide, and I would argue that dwarf spirals best fit the bill.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Sothis » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:08 pm

1. You claim that off-lane travel involves some sort of unspecified risk, yet you also believe this risk can be mitigated with information.
Correct. This is true of any means of transport. Even today cars and even trucks and buses 'can' go off-road, or down small country roads, or dirt tracks, to get from A to B. It is not advisible (especially not to go at full speed down a country lane or through a field), but it is still possible. With the right forewarning of hazards, it can be done.
In other words, you're saying roads are safer, but going off-road is perfectly fine. (Sigh)
Incorrect. By continuing to assert I am claiming it is 'perfectly fine', you are implying I am saying there is no risk, no danger, to going into hyperspace outside of established safe routes. Your implication is a misrepresentation of my position and I would ask that you cease and desist with this.

To make it clear what my position is, and what it has been, I now quote myself, from earlier in this very thread, and I have highlighted the most relevant lines:
So obviously, I don't claim it's safe to use hyperdrive outside of a designated lane - only that it's very much possible, as demonstrated by the events of the six Saga films, where hyperlanes are not referred to at all, by anyone.

That doesn't mean, without a decent astrogation system and a willingness to take risks, that hyperspace is completely dangerous outside of those lanes - just more dangerous.

I do not negate lanes nor their importance. I point out that, based on all existing canon information, hyperlanes can be bypassed if you're prepared to risk it. I don't claim it's 100% safe, only that it can be done, and indeed is done, in the PT and OT.

I do not claim it is the safest option or even safe.
So, as you can see, at no point have I claimed going 'off-lane' is perfectly fine.
Again, though, this completely contradicts the fact that the Separatists evidently could not go off-road to bypass Republic defenses in TCW. I hate to have to keep hammering that point but you haven't really answered as to why that would be the case.
There's a difference between getting somewhere within a day or two or within a week or two, obviously. Where both sides have the same advantages and disadvantages, you want to minimise transit time as much as possible. If the Separatists went off on a two week-long back-alley route and the Republic learned of it, they could move in, attack unguarded Separatist targets and be back home to intercept the CIS forces in plenty of time. Again, this doesn't mean it can't be done, only that it wouldn't be wise in this case.

Between the Empire and the Federation however, where there is a greater disparity between hyperdrive and warp drive, this sort of thing is less of an issue. If it's going to take the Federation several months or even years to cover the sort of group the Empire can cover in a few weeks, going off-lane is not going to make a major difference.
Even below you just dodge:
Again, this makes no sense given the Nexus Route and hyperlane-based defenses. You have not responded to this point. Claiming that ships entering hyperspace in the Original Trilogy without explicitly referring to hyperlanes somehow contradicts hyperlane importance is absurd. Even your Hoth example is provided in a question-begging manner . . . it makes more sense to understand it with regards to hyperlanes for consistency than to claim it supports your point because racecar.

Again I point to the KITT example which you have failed to properly understand.

1a. You claim that off-lane travel may be slightly slower.

Nexus Route. Defenses. War.

Until you can argue against such points, your claim is simply invalid.
There are two possibilities. Either offlane travel is very much possible (and you have not disproven this possibility simply by referring to mentioned lanes - off-road travel is actually a very real thing now, and with the correct info, not completely dangerous), or the Empire took the time to quickly find new, safe routes through hyperspace via... probes and scouting. Which would explain the ease of reaching Hoth.
Where's the explanation about how your claim fits with the existence of the Nexus Route? Clearly, it doesn't exist . . . indeed, your only acknowledgement of my argument is to dismiss it as not disproving your unsubstantiated claim that going off-lane is fine.

There's just one problem . . . it *is* completely contrary to your unsupported claim.[/quote]

See above. Military maneuvers obviously want and need to happen in the shortest possible span of time, especially when both sides have the same capabilities and you can't risk spending longer traveling than you have to. This is not going to a problem for the Empire versus the Federation.

Furthermore, the OT demonstrates off-lane travel is possible, and a matter of using sensors and starcharts to plot a safe route. Luke's passage to Dagobah was a journey to an uncharted world, yet Luke was able to get there. Likewise, Luke was able to get from Dagobah to Bespin in short order (heading from said uncharted world). You might not care to admit it, but since hyperlanes are a matter of charting a safe route and not like building roads, it is entirely feasible to chart a sage passage from A to B outside of a lane. It might take longer, it may still involve more danger, but it is possible, and you have not shown this to be otherwise.

Since you obviously haven't understood why, let me explain it via analogy, if that will even help. Suppose that China invaded the United States west coast and had designs on our 'core cities' of New York and, of course, Washington, D.C.
The way TCW works, the Americans would set up their defenses along the interstate highways, and the Chinese would not go off-road during the bitter war. Only when a previously-unknown interstate was found would the Chinese go off the beaten path and be able to cruise up to D.C. unimpeded.
False analogy. Obviously the circumstances in a hypothetical real war here on earth and one involved in TCW are totally different. It would be a better example to consider whether the Chinese could attack American installations before the Americans realised the Chinese were traveling along a slower path and attacked their installations whilst they were undefended.
To your mind, however, going off-road is perfectly fine, save for some slight lack of velocity or slight lack of safety or some other such unspecified thing which can be mitigated easily.
Not at all what I have said.
So why would the Chinese choose to fight their way to D.C. the hard way via interstate?

That is exactly what you are claiming of the Separatists.
See above.
Recall that at the start of the war, the Separatists managed to seize control of major hyperspace lanes, completely cutting off the Republic from the Outer Rim. This was sufficiently bad for the Republic that they got into bed with Hutt slavers and scoundrels for the use of their lanes.

Recall that the mining world of Bheriz was negotiating with Jabba the Hutt for hyperspace lane access and was willing to give up half of its precious and expensive teniline supply for access to them.

Recall that the Citadel trilogy features frequent references to the importance of the secret Nexus Route, such as how it will tip the scales of the war and allow surprise attacks on Coruscant that could cripple the Republic and Jedi.

Recall that "Padawan Lost" features unending warfare at Felucia, which is near a "major hyperspace lane". Why expend such resources for a worthless lump of pretty-planted rock if hyperspace lanes are just convenient, not vital? They were apparently still fighting for Felucia in RotS!

Put simply, you have no case, only your assertions.
See my earlier explanation. In all-out war, where both sides share the same problem/advantage, the difference of a few days could be crucial. One side or the other could choose to take a route requiring weeks, knowing it would be unexpected, but if their plan were discovered whilst out of position... then the enemy can strike right at them, and withdraw again to cover their own territory once their attack is complete.
"Note that my suggested interpretation here doesn't mean that you can't go off-road, but that it doesn't apparently do you much good. It may be significantly, vastly slower, or more costly in fuel, or it may simply be that there is not sufficient infrastructure for refuelling and such at all. We don't know. But what we do know is that whatever the reason, the Separatists in TCW never just drove up to Coruscant by bypassing all the Republic defenses. We know this happened in RotS, but that is presumably related to the Nexus Route, a known secret road."

So with this in mind, let us once again ponder your Hoth argument. I previously replied thusly:

"Even your Hoth example is provided in a question-begging manner . . . it makes more sense to understand it with regards to hyperlanes for consistency than to claim it supports your point because racecar."

You claim that having a base near a hyperlane leaves them vulnerable and would thus be silly, and that therefore they were not near a hyperlane. You then extend the concept further and argue that since your conclusion is that they were not near a hyperlane, that therefore the Empire found them via probe droid which reported back that travel was safe (despite the fact that the probe droid was dropped off in the same system by an ISD anyway) or that the Empire quickly mapped out a hyperlane to allow Death Squadron access.
That final sentence would seem to harm your own case. 'The Empire quickly mapped out a hyperlane'. How do you think this would be achieved? Scouts, probes and the like.

Your pictures from your site, whilst very pretty, presume that the system is the same, but the orbital mechanics of the system, if that is so, would be beyond remarkable.

In the opening scene, the ISD releases several probes, one of which heads toward the camera, then swoops down toward Hoth. This probe is heading away from the group of planets behind it.

Next up, Luke ends up getting attacked by that snow creature. He is dragged off to its cave. Han goes out to find Luke and Luke, as night begins to fall, escapes the snow creature. Luke then has his vision of Obi-wan and passes out.

Han finds him, slices open the tauntaun and they stay warm overnight. The next morning, Han and Chewie find the probe and the probe destroys itself, but not before alerting the Empire to the location of the Rebel base. Vader orders the fleet to the Hoth system (which means he's obviously coming from outside the system), the Rebels are scrambling to evacuate (probably because they know an attack is imminent), and in that time, the planets in your pictures have not only moved wildly but changed size relative to each other as well.

In your picture of the ISD, 'Three' is quite small but this could be due to distance. One is quite large but then it might just be closer. One would assume that as their orbits change, their size relative to one another would appear different, but instead, there is barely any change, and yet both planets are a lot closer to Hoth.

So, either this is not the Hoth system (and it's never stated in the film to actually be Hoth), or within a day (two at most) the planets' orbits are carrying them around each other far quicker than they actually should.
But as I noted, the very first step in your chain begs the question by assuming they could've set up a base somewhere away from the hyperlanes. If it wasn't plausible to do that, then it wasn't silly to do the reverse. If it takes you fifty years to go a hundred light-years off the hyperlanes (for example), then you're simply not going to go too far off the beaten path.
Fifty years to get 100LY from a hyperlane is your conjecture, and thus doesn't represent a solid case for the base being near a lane, where it would be more easily found. You even admit that the Empire might have quickly scouted a route from wherever they were to Hoth.

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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by 2046 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:12 pm

Oh good grief.

Sothis, you seem bent on not being taken seriously.

I. AN ARGUMENT FOR ALL SEASONS
Sothis wrote:By continuing to assert I am claiming it is 'perfectly fine', you are implying I am saying there is no risk, no danger, to going into hyperspace outside of established safe routes.
No, I am implying no such thing. I say what I mean and don't try to phrase things as a yes and a no all at the same time. As I said, "To your mind, however, going off-road is perfectly fine, save for some slight lack of velocity or slight lack of safety or some other such unspecified thing which can be mitigated easily."

And you say:
Furthermore, the OT demonstrates off-lane travel is possible, and a matter of using sensors and starcharts to plot a safe route. Luke's passage to Dagobah was a journey to an uncharted world, yet Luke was able to get there. Likewise, Luke was able to get from Dagobah to Bespin in short order (heading from said uncharted world). You might not care to admit it, but since hyperlanes are a matter of charting a safe route and not like building roads, it is entirely feasible to chart a sage passage from A to B outside of a lane. It might take longer, it may still involve more danger, but it is possible, and you have not shown this to be otherwise.
So, to your mind, going off-road is perfectly fine because they can "plot a safe route" and "get there" and "it is entirely feasible to chart a safe passage from A to B outside of a lane", save for some slight lack of velocity or slight lack of safety . . . oh, excuse me, I mean "it might take longer, it may still involve more danger" . . . or some other such unspecified thing which can be mitigated easily.

I'm sorry the concept of synonymous terms eludes you. Commonly such "active listening" as I have engaged in is considered a good thing and even complimentary to the speaker, but obviously if I don't quote you verbatim . . . with all the self-contradictions and mealy-mouthed obfuscatory multi-possibility every-which-way-isms which look from here to be designed to avoid the possibility of criticism . . . I'm a bad guy, in your eyes.

Oh well. Forgive me if I don't weep. Maybe you can reactivate your old anti-Darkstar site to tell folks what a bad person I am.

For now, please cut the crap. Assume a single position so I can agree or disagree with it as it deserves.

II. EVADING THE NEXUS ROUTE
Again, though, this completely contradicts the fact that the Separatists evidently could not go off-road to bypass Republic defenses in TCW. I hate to have to keep hammering that point but you haven't really answered as to why that would be the case.
There's a difference between getting somewhere within a day or two or within a week or two, obviously.
I could pull a you, here, and say that's mere conjecture and thus ignore the rest of your point. But I'm not you.
Where both sides have the same advantages and disadvantages, you want to minimise transit time as much as possible. If the Separatists went off on a two week-long back-alley route and the Republic learned of it, they could move in, attack unguarded Separatist targets and be back home to intercept the CIS forces in plenty of time. Again, this doesn't mean it can't be done, only that it wouldn't be wise in this case.
The above is total nonsense, and not just because of "unguarded Separatist targets" as if the Separatist military doesn't understand leaving some defensive units behind. All you have provided is an imagined notion that the Republic might realize Separatist ships are missing and launch an all-out attack, which seems kind of silly if they don't know where all those ships are, eh?

Put succinctly, if the Nexus Route is a veritable war-winner all by itself as all the characters believed in-universe, then so would be your two-week tour.
Since you obviously haven't understood why, let me explain it via analogy, if that will even help. (snip)
False analogy. Obviously the circumstances in a hypothetical real war here on earth and one involved in TCW are totally different.
(Facepalm)

I knew you would try to refuse to address the analogy, but I didn't realize you would be so obvious about it.
It would be a better example to consider whether the Chinese could attack American installations before the Americans realised the Chinese were traveling along a slower path and attacked their installations whilst they were undefended.
No, that would be a silly analogy because (1) it presumes the Chinese just go en masse . . . good grief, that's twice you've argued that military folks have no brain . . . and (2) it has jack all to do with going off-road when defenders are only defending roads, which was the point you chose to try to pretend to miss.
(numerous examples of the necessity of hyperlanes snipped)

Put simply, you have no case, only your assertions.
See my earlier explanation. In all-out war, where both sides share the same problem/advantage, the difference of a few days could be crucial. One side or the other could choose to take a route requiring weeks, knowing it would be unexpected, but if their plan were discovered whilst out of position... then the enemy can strike right at them, and withdraw again to cover their own territory once their attack is complete.
Utter nonsense as already described, and in addition this "difference of a few days could be crucial" thing strikes me as a rather desperate attempt to feign having an argument given the months of Ryloth and Geonosis and such.

By your rationale, the Republic strategy meeting the Seppies tried to blow up with the fuel from the Void planet was, by virtue of so many Republic ships being off the front lines, certain to have resulted in the loss of a Republic world or something. That's just nonsensical.

But, since you have actually sort of assumed a position, let's stop and ponder its merit.

. . .

. . .

Right, oh well. On to the next quote:

III. OMG THAT SYSTEM IS SO HOTH I WANT TO TAKE ITS MOONS OFF
Your pictures from your site, whilst very pretty, presume that the system is the same, but the orbital mechanics of the system, if that is so, would be beyond remarkable.
No, I don't presume the system is the same. I demonstrate it. But if you know of another system in the Star Wars galaxy with an identically-colored planet and triad of moons, feel free to point it out.

I would consider that a more impressive feat than your inability to understand that seeing orbiting bodies from wildly different angles is not the same thing as "beyond remarkable" orbital mechanics.

But hey, even if you're right about the orbital mechanics, guess what? You're wrong, because it's still Hoth:
it's never stated in the film to actually be Hoth
It is said to be Hoth in the script . . . quod erat demonstrandum.

IV. MY SO-CALLED ADMISSION
You claim that having a base near a hyperlane leaves them vulnerable and would thus be silly, and that therefore they were not near a hyperlane. You then extend the concept further and argue that since your conclusion is that they were not near a hyperlane, that therefore the Empire found them via probe droid which reported back that travel was safe (despite the fact that the probe droid was dropped off in the same system by an ISD anyway) or that the Empire quickly mapped out a hyperlane to allow Death Squadron access.
That final sentence would seem to harm your own case.
Dude, I was summarizing your argument!

In the next paragraph I tore it apart. And you didn't even reply to the point, instead trying to dodge by whining about the detail in my example.

You even get all excited at the end of your post, noting "You even admit that the Empire might have quickly scouted a route from wherever they were to Hoth."

(Facepalm) Good heavens, man.

Please work harder to make arguments worth taking seriously. Currently you appear to be engaged only in "resistance typing" . . . tossing out words only so that you can appear to have replied and so that the debate can appear to still be on.

But on any logical level, the debate on these topics is currently over. You can re-open debate at your leisure by posting topical arguments.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

Mike DiCenso
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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:34 am

Sothis wrote:I would imagine the Federation, faced with all-out war, would have recalled it's deep space vessels as early as possible - right near the start of the war, or perhaps even before, given the war was inevitable once the Dominion allied with Cardassia.

I suspect a combination of things happened. The Federation ramped up ship production, but also refitted old ships and put them into battle, as they needed a quick boost to their numbers (which makes sense, in 'In the Pale Moonlight', we learn the Federation is rebuilding their shipyards, whilst the Dominion yards are operating at 100%). This would easily explain the ongoing number of Miranda-class vessels that keep turning up in nearly every battle scene. They're old, but either A: easy to build, or B: easy to refit. Or a combination of both.
I'm not sure that that would be entirely correct as the Mirandas as well as the Excelsior-class ships have been shown in huge abundance well before even Deep Space, In TNG's "Night Terrors" showed us the USS Brattain (NCC-21166). What's interesting that Starfleet chose to continue production of the Miranda class so late with the Brattain having such a high registry number, especially compared to the first one we see in the TOS-era, the USS Reliant, which was NCC-1864. In fact, the Mirandas have known registries as high as 31911, which suggests a very late production, and USS Majestic had a fairly high registry and that was one of the Mirandas that participated in Operation Return as seen in "Sacrifice of Angels", so I don't think it was simply Starfleet pulling ships out of mothballs, just because they were of an older hull design.
Sothis wrote:Not disputing the numbers, only the make-up of the fleet. For the Federation fleet to grow from a scenario where 600+ vessels is seen as the combination of two large fleets, to a scenario where the Feds have 10,000 vessels, after apparently rebuilding their shipyards, suggests they were either rushing ships into service, refitting old ships, or building older designs that are quick and easy to build, which would, as I mentioned earlier, explain the ongoing use of old Miranda-class designs.
The evidence suggests all of the above, really. As for the 627 vessels being considered large, I'll get to that later.
Sothis wrote:The opening scenes of Revenge of the Sith make it clear the Republic can field large fleets too. A group of separatists made up of corporations had built a fleet to challenge them. The novelisation would seem to support this: The artificial daylight spread by the capital's orbital mirrors is
sliced by intersecting flames of ion drives and punctuated by starburst
explosions; contrails of debris raining into the atmosphere become
tangled ribbons of cloud. The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of
shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of
glowing gnats. Beings watching from rooftops of Coruscant's
endless cityscape can find it beautiful. From the inside, it's different.
The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines
are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize
a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.


So the description is pretty clear. The space above Coruscant is a maelstrom of battle. That sounds to be like a considerably large number of vessels would be involved.
There is no real indication of fleet sizes there. Flavor text like that could mean there were dozens, or maybe hundreds. And the Separatists formed into a large coalition of other worlds, not simply corporations, which is what TCW shows us in the "Heroes and Villians" arc. The number of turbolaser bolts being irrelevant since Star Wars ships can fire dozens of bolts at a time in broadside, and it fits with what we see in the movie version of that scene where the visuals show maybe a couple hundred ships fighting total between both sides, and in TCW where we only ever saw even CIS blockade fleets number in the couple dozen or so ships. We never ever see a megafleet like that shown in "What You Leave Behind".

And my point was that the Federation was building up a much larger fleet, the Dominion's awareness of that or not is irrelevant to that point.
Sothis wrote:Not only that, but why wouldn't the ability to put together a 120KM in diameter battlestation be indicative of advanced construction technology? If the Empire can pull together something like a Death Star, it is not unreasonable to believe they can build far smaller ships with a fair degree of ease.
Why wouldn't the Federation's ability to put together dozens, perhaps hundreds of large 14-18 km starbases mean they can field ten thousand Galaxy or Sovereign-class starships? I mean, we have proof that in the Alternate Timeline of the Abramsverse Trek, that when the Federation wants to, they can build massive 700-900 meter starships by the dozens.
Sothis wrote:I'm sure I read the three year figure somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it. I may well be mistaken. If construction started after the first Death Star was destroyed, then it was being built at a rate that was quicker than the first.
I think a lot of that comes from people putting together the idea that about two years had past between ANH and TESB, and then there's a reference in the ROTJ novelization that Luke had spent 6 months on Tatooine preparing for Han's rescue from Jabba the Hutt, and then fill in some additional time for the events of TESB with Luke's training to be a Jedi under Yoda and all of that. In reality, we don't know how long any of it took. Was it months.. years? All we know canonically is that "many years" had gone by, and I don't think 3 years cuts it. If the second Death Star had been half complete as the novelization states it was, then another 5 years might have been required to complete the structure.

As far as when the construction started, that's also a bit confusing, and the opening
What's to address? A starbase is a lot closer in size to a starship than the Death Star is. The two feats are radically apart in terms of their complexity.
Closer is a relative term. If we go by the volumetrics chart, Starbase 74, represents over 11,500 Galaxy-class starships in volume and as much as 44,000 in mass (it also outsizes the flat wedge-shaped Super Star Destroyer by 5.3 to 1 in volume). So this is not a trivial thing, and bear in mind that Starbase 74 was not alone, there was also at least Starbase 133 ( TNG: "Remember Me"), Lya Station Alpha (TNG: "Ensign Ro"), and Starbase 84 (TNG: "Phantasms"). An unnamed similar facility was seen in TNG's "Booby Trap" from the inside, and of course there is the somewhat smaller Spacedock. Given that the numbers span a good portion of the known existing Starbase numbers and names, we might conjecture that there are dozens, maybe hundreds of these stations, which would represent a huge industrial capacity for the Federation for ship production.
1 million systems is a small number of systems (as in a small fraction) of systems in a galaxy, regardless of how they are spread out. There is nothing to suggest they are all clustered together in one corner of the galaxy.

There are also plenty of galaxies considerable bigger than the Milky Way, which looks modest by comparison: http://www.rhysy.net/Science/GChart1.jpg
This is a bit disingenuous on your part as Robert has already pointed out and it would be a huge waste of time to go over everything he has again. Suffice to say, the Milky Way is not considered a modest-sized galaxy according to astrophysics and cosmology. Modest sized is smaller than than the Milky Way galaxy, which is much larger than the vast majority of galaxies in the known universe. So when Vader contemplates the Empire made up a small part of a modest sized galaxy, he means that; one that is smaller than the Milky Way and is likely only about a one-third to one-half the diameter at the biggest compared to it. So that being the case, then when we compare to what the Federation has charted and access to as far as known space:

Image

The entire Star Wars galaxy might well fit in that area.
Sothis wrote:So, fair enough, it sounds like the Feds can transmit messages across long distances - but they do not have a Holo-Net style system to allow real-time communication anywhere in the galaxy. Obviously a network would need to be established, but the very best the Feds can achieve here is a tie, and without knowing the location of Toddman, these outposts, and the like in TDIC, we don't know a lot about the ranges involved.
We can get rough ideas, however. For example we know that the primitive NX-01 was some 78 light years from Earth at the time of "Civilization" which is well before "Silent Enemy". Near the end of the season during "Two Days and Two Nights", we learn the ship is 90 light years away when it reaches Risa. So lets say about 80 light years when they made their real-time communications with Earth in "Silent Enemy". Not bad for a primitive ship and relay system.

Now as for the network, we do know they exist since we see a subspace relay station near the Klingon border in TNG's "Aquiel":

Image

So given that it was established in the episode to be one of likely many such stations, I think it's safe to say that the Federation has it's own communications network system.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso
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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:47 am

Sothis wrote:Right, now that I have a little time, I will try to respond. Mike, since your post is the longest, I'll respond to this first, though I can't promise I'll make it through the entire thing in one go.
You should take more time to respond, no one will think poorly of you for it, and your response here came out a bit messy so it took me a while to sort out what was your most recent reply and what wasn't.
Sothis wrote:As mentioned earlier in these discussion, I do not claim going into hyperspace outside of a lane is safe. I do not claim it is advisable. I do claim it is possible, and thus far, have seen nothing to suggest it is impossible. It may be ill-advised, it may be the recourse of the desperate, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

The Falcon's navi-computer was probably looking for a safe route but this doesn't automatically mean it had to find the nearest designated hyperlane. It was probably looking for a route with no or few potential hazards, which is what sensors and starcharts would be for. This doesn't have to be a designated hyperlane. This does not have to be an one or the other situation, and nor do I believe this to be the case.
Star Wars sensors have never demonstrated the range you require for that, and what you are describing completely is contrary to the TCW movie and series, especially the whole Citadel story arc with the Nexus lane. If the Falcon jumped to hyperspace, then it did not go very far at all, for very long before coming out and then finding a hyperlane to go to and continue on from there.

The other issues I think Robert has handled pretty well so I'll leave that alone for now.
So, initially at least, it was going to take 75 years, at maximum speeds. This is a pretty definitive statement from Captain Janeway. Shaving off five years due to navigation data does not make this any less of a decades-long trip.
Sorry, but that is wrong and you are ignoring all the evidence contrary to that:

[b]TORRES:[/b] I've gone over and over the transporter logs. There's no question that if we try to transport ourselves through that wormhole, we'll end up twenty years in the past.
KIM: Then lets do it. It's better than trying to spend the next seventy years trying to get back.


Kim is pretty definitive here as well, too. So the 75 years is down to 70 just a few episodes after "Caretaker". Then there is this after "The Year of Hell":

JANEWAY: I don't buy it. This isn't about your independence or your superiority, this is about your fear. You're not making this choice because you've outgrown humanity. I think you're afraid to go back to Earth. The algorithm's working. It's reconstructing the datablock. That's strange, I thought we already recovered this part of the message.
SEVEN: Perhaps it is an addendum from the Admiral. You did designate him a windbag.
JANEWAY: Oh I don't think so. The data index doesn't match. This is a completely different message.
ADMIRAL HAYES [on monitor]: Apologies from everyone at Starfleet Command. We've had our best people working around the clock, trying to find a wormhole, a new means of propulsion, anything to get you home. But despite our best efforts. I know it's not what you were hoping, but we've sent you all the data we've collected on the Delta Quadrant. With any luck, you'll find at least some part of it useful. Maybe enough to shave a few years off your journey. Safe journey. We hope to see you soon.
SEVEN: Your intuition was correct.
JANEWAY: Unfortunately.


That is from "Hope and Fear", and is the real Starfleet message sent to Voyager, and here, despite the 5 years shaved off in YoH, Hayes and everone in Starfleet hopes that a few more years can be shaved off with additional data. And then there's "Q2" much later on and after the journey has been cut considerably to 30,000 light years:

Q: Oh, before I leave.
(Q gives her a PADD.)
Q: I did a little homework for you. Consider it a thank you for everything you did for Junior.
JANEWAY: Not that I don't appreciate it, but this will only take a few years off our journey. Why not send us all the way?
Q: What sort of an example would I be setting for my son if I did all the work for you?


So Q might well have helped shave a few more years off of everything else, once again disproving that Voyager was only limited to the speeds you claim, and it reinforces my theory about why the speeds are so very much higher in Federation and other well-charted space.
Sothis wrote:Voyager would often slow down or even stop to poke at various sites of interest on its journey home. And Janeway did not say 'maximum cruise speeds' in Caretaker, only 'maximum speeds'. It is more likely that Voyager cannot sustain warp 9 indefinitely, owing to strain on the engines, and has to slow down periodically to reduce wear and tear.
Certainly Voyager cannot indefinitely sustain warp 9.9 or higher, but we know canonically that the ship was cruising along at warp 6.2 and even went slower still. As for the quote:

STADI: That's our ship. That's Voyager.
(It is docked at an upper pylon.)
STADI: Intrepid class. Sustainable cruise velocity of warp factor nine point nine seven five. Fifteen decks. Crew complement of one hundred and forty one. Bio-neural circuitry.
PARIS: Bio-neural?
STADI: Some of the traditional circuitry has been replaced by gel packs that contain bio-neural cells. They organise information more efficiently, speed up response time.


Its actually maximum sustainable warp velocity is 9.975.
Sothis wrote:Fair enough, but appreciate that I work full-time, and I have responsibilities as a father too. On top of that, I have a lot of competing demands on my time, so going through several pages of technical stuff... it's not something I have a lot of time to devote to.
That's nice, but please remember you're not the only one, and like me, you could also take a day or two or even three to get your thoughts and response in order.
Sothis wrote:The Empire has, according to Expanded Universe sources, 25,000 Star Destroyers at its disposal. They also have an unknown number of support vessels (frigates, destroyers and such), although to patrol a million star systems they presumably have a reasonably sized fleet to do the job. Winner: Empire.
That is now non-canon, of course. But the other ships are never seen rounding out the Imperial fleet, even when it would have made a huge difference (Battle of Yavin, Battle of Hoth, Battle of Endor). Even if it were true, the Empire still would have to keep those smaller ships and a number of ISDs in place, otherwise the Rebels, or other forces would make use of large capital ships, like the Mon Calamari cruisers, and leftover Lucrehulks, among many others.

The star destroyers that do make it will be facing Starfleet as well as a wide array of planetary defenses and local defense force fleets. If that isn't bad enough, they'll be still bogged down trying to chart this very alien galaxy, and lord help them if they catch the Borg's notice while they do so.
Sothis wrote:They don't need to be aware of the Ninth Fleet as the Ninth Fleet is a non-entity in this fight. They felt the need to commit a 'significant number of ships' to stop what had already been described as 'two large fleets'. It doesn't matter whether the Ninth Fleet was supposed to be a part of this battle or not - it wasn't, and whatever numbers it may have brought, are irrelevant. Weyoun and Dukat are discussing the actual fleets involved, and they are described as 'large' and 'significant'.
Yes, that's technically true, from that context, however, you still miss my point, which is that the Federation had been massing a larger fleet, but the plan was botched due to the unforeseen breakthrough by Damar in bringing down the minefield. That is something you don't want to acknowledge because it goes against your thesis that the Federation could only muster up in total 627 ships, when it was bringing many more. No matter how you try and slice it, the Ninth fleet elements were on their way and would have been there on schedule for the original Operation Return plan.
Sothis wrote:Ok fair enough, but I can't help but feel this is nitpicky. You're also assuming Bashir wasn't speaking colloquially. In any event, it doesn't significantly alter the size of the fleet.

I shall have to approach the rest another time, when I have more time.
Hardly, if you look at prior dialog, once Bashir had been outed as an augment, he started showing off, and being hyper precise with his math, not being colloquial at all. Why should we assume any differently here?
-Mike

Lucky
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Re: I don't know if this is the right place...

Post by Lucky » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:46 am

I think I got everything. Please tell me if i missed something.
Sothis wrote: A lot of combat on Star Trek is fought at close range (not just DS9, though DS9, with large-scale battles, shows this more than most). Whether we like it or not, those examples are as canon as anything we see in any other part of the franchise, and they are very clear in what they depict - short-range fights, and shots missing during those fights. There's also not as much inconsistency between dialogue and visuals as there appears - whilst ranges for Federation ships can be as great as 300,000KM, this doesn't mean such ranges are effective against small or fast targets (especially when there's jamming occurring, such as the jamming the Dominion uses against Federation comms in 'Sacrifice of Angels'.
Sothis wrote: I don't quite follow.
1) Deep Space Nine was limited on resources(time, money, man power, technology for visuals) so they had to cut corners when producing the show. For example this results in ships not having visible shield effects during large. Shield flares were time consuming and relatively expensive to make when showing large numbers of ships so they simply weren't bothered with even if they were suppose to be there

Way of the Warrior is a prime example of visuals not making sense when pared with the dialog. You have talk of closing to point blank range, but the entire fight was shown to be at mere ship lengths apart, and there is no change even though such was stated, and then later the Klingon fleet is shown within Ds9's inner ring while the characters state and act as if the Klingon fleet is still closing on the station. It's a similar problem to Stargate.

I try to find dialog from characters who are suppose to know what they are talking about, and we have no reason to doubt.

2) You seem to be confusing cloaking tactics with open combat, surface ships VS submarines.

In TNG: Hero Worship it is stated that cloaked vessels often attack from less then 3,000 meters

In DS9: The Die is Cast we are told that 500 meters is dangerously close to an exploding ship even with shields up. Any time ships are shown in combat at ranges less then .5 kilometers there is likely a mistake made by the visual effects team.

In TNG: The Wounded we see open combat between uncloaked ships at ranges that are roughly a light second, but it seems that tens of thousands of kilometers is more common.

3) There is always ECM and ECCM in Star Trek battles. Just turning your shields on basically makes you invisible to things like radar and the mark-1 eyeball(TOS: Tomorrow is Yesterday, Voy: Future's End), and then there is the time the Enterprise-D sat in orbitover a planet about to build its fitsy warp drive while down below the natives feared an alien invasion because Riker got hurt(TNG: First Contact).

Star Trek ships are surrounded by all sorts of nasty gravitational distortions aside from the warp field(Star Trek: Generations, Voy: Coda). Gravity is used in everything from thrusters to shields, to navigational deflectors.
Sothis wrote: In the battles in 'Way of the Warrior' and 'Call to Arms', none of the attacking ships are more than a few KM away, yet, in both episodes, we see what can only be described as misses. In 'Call to Arms', at one stage several Jem'Hadar attack ships are heading in a straight-line for the station, and the station manages to miss with phaser fire.
1)
The Mark-01 human eye is easily fooled by Star Trek ECM, and its effective range is far shorter then the effective range of the weapons. You claim there are misses in Way of the Warrior, but that requires a contradiction with the dialog do to the Klingon fleet still arriving even when they are buzzing the inner ring.

2)Way of the warrior
The ships are tiny when compared to the distances that combat can take place at. You can't show there aren't ships just far enough to be too far to see.

Stock footage and contradictions with dialog make this suspect. Ships within .5 kilometers each other is a visual effects mistake.

3) Call to Arms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkQizwbq7Rs
Visual effects mistake one 0:44
you have ships that are seemingly well within .5 kilometers of each other.

Visual effects mistake two 2:06
No shields on the starships

How large is Deep Space Nine because the attacking fleet isn't in range? Both Dominion and Cardassian ships have effective ranges measured in hundreds of kilometers for their beam weapons.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ms_504.jpg

Sothis wrote: Being able to target one planet from another (a planet is a very large, relatively-slow moving object) is not indicative of being able to do the same thing to a ship.
It's more being able to target starfleet academy with an FTL particle beam from Mars while also being able to target ships such as the NX-01.. It just barely missed the NX-01.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Verteron_array

Sothis wrote: There's no visual evidence to support this in combat scenes. In First Contact, Federation ships meander lazily around the languid Borg cube, and the ships in 'Sacrifice of Angels' do not zip quickly past one another (there are several stationary Cardassian vessels that appear to be doing nothing, apart from looking pretty for other ships to fly past).
I was talking about the Phoenix and to a lesser degree the the Enterprise-E which easily out accelerated the Phoenix. The Phoenix(a barely working prototype) was just meandering like those ships that fought the cube, but it was stated to be traveling at high percentages of the speed of light. Just before going to warp they are possible traveling at the speed of light.
Franchise: Star Trek Series: Movie Title: First Contact wrote:
LAFORGE: Plasma injectors are on-line. Everything's looking good. I think we're ready.


RIKER: They should be out there right now. We better break the warp barrier in the next five minutes if we're going to get their attention.


LAFORGE: Main cells are charged and ready.


RIKER: Let's do it.


COCHRANE: Engage.


LAFORGE: Warp field is looking good. Structural integrity is holding.


RIKER: Speed, twenty thousand kilometres per second.


COCHRANE: Sweet Jesus!


(Cochrane has spotted the Enterprise in orbit)


RIKER: Relax, Doctor. I'm sure they're just here to give us a send-off.

+++++

RIKER: Thirty seconds to warp threshold. ...Approaching light-speed.


COCHRANE: We're at critical velocity.
1 Light Second = 299792.458 km

1 Minute = 60 Seconds

Starting Velocity: 20,000 km per second

Ending Velocity: 299792.458 km per second

Time Spent Accelerating: A maximum of 5 minutes

The Phoenix's Average Rate of Acceleration
299792.458-20000=279792.458
279792.458/300=932.641526667

Average Rate of Acceleration: 932.641526667 kilometers per second

Note 1:
It is debatable if the Phoenix reach the speed of light before going to warp, but I used the speed of light because it simplified the math, and they say they were at least traveling near the speed of light.

Note 2:
The heavily damaged Enterprise-E seems to have been able to easily keep up with or possibly out accelerate the Phoenix.

Sothis wrote: As I understand it, the 97,000 reference comes from the NCC reg of a ship from Star Trek Online, so Idazmi7 hasn't even used canon material for that reference.
This is why I stated there was not enough information on the topic to be sure of anything.

Sothis wrote: Then of course, there's the detail about registrations not always being re-used after ships are destroyed or decommissioned. Famous ships (like the Enterprise) might get their prefix recycled - this doesn't mean they all do.
I'm not aware of any source that states they don't always recycle the numbers. We simply don't know.

Sothis wrote: What is your source for Voyager having a damaged warp core?
Here you go:
Franchise: Star Trek Series: Voyager Season: 01 Episode: 01 Title: Caretaker wrote: CAREY [OC]: Engineering to Bridge. We have some severe damage. The Chief's dead. Possibility of a warp core breach.
JANEWAY: Secure all engineering systems. I'm on my way.
Franchise: Star Trek Series: Voyager Season: 01 Episode: 01 Title: Caretaker wrote: COMPUTER: Warning. Warp core microfracture. Breach imminent.


JANEWAY: What's the warp core pressure?


CAREY: Twenty one hundred kilopascals.


JANEWAY: Lock down the magnetic constrictors.


CAREY: If we lock them down at these pressure levels, we might not be able to reinitialise the dilithium reaction.


COMPUTER: Warning. Warp core microfracture. Breach imminent.


JANEWAY: We don't have a choice. We've got to get the reaction rate down before we try to seal it.
For as often as this episode is quote, I'm not sure why this is ignored. Voyager is badly damaged in the first episode, and it is unlikely it is ever at 100% during the series.

Sothis wrote: And as I have since pointed out to 2046, none of the ships in the six Saga films appear restricted to hyperlanes, and nor are they even referred to.
Sothis wrote: Where in any of these films are hyperlanes even mentioned?
There are seven Star Wars movies and an eighth coming out even if the Clone Wars animated movie was basically a three part television episode. Just because no one talks about hyperlanes in Episode 1 through 6 does not mean they aren't implied.

The plot of the animated clone wars movie hinges on hyperlanes not being easy to map or go off of. The CIS wouldn't be able to mine hyperlanes if they weren't narrow, and the Republic could just go around if you could easily travel off the lanes.

In episode 1 the royal yacht has to charge the Trade Federation blockade. If you could easily enter and leave hyperspace at any point in space then charging the fleet is pointless and suicidal.

In Episode 2 you have an area called The Rishi maze.

In Episode 4, Han flies in a straight line while being chased by a stardestroyer. This is insane unless Han has to get to a certain location in space to enter hyperspace.

In Episode 5 Vader plans to blockade Hoth with maybe 40 Stardesroyers. Such a blockade is impossible unless number of entrances and exits to the Hoth system is a small number. Why do the Rebels charge the Stardestroyer blockade if they have a choice, and why are most of the Stardestroyers in such a close formation if hyperlanes aren't an issue.

In Episode 6 the Empire knows exactly where the Rebel fleet will come out of hyperspace implying that there are a limited number of entrances to the Endor system. The Empires plan falls apart if any of the Rebels arrive from a different direction.

Sothis wrote: A lot of this though, is Idazmi7 trying to come up with excuses to inflate Federation fleet strength, and he times himself into knots trying to.
I don't see a connection?

Sothis wrote: He needs to come up with a reason for the Federation to have such a vast fleet, yet be easily threatened by comparatively few Dominion ships (and be vastly outgunned by the Dominion too).
The Federation is 8,000 long, and engages in lots of scientific exploration as well as police, military, and diplomatic duties, mapping.

Most Starfleet vessels would logically be on the edges of the Federation, or outside it normally.

Sothis wrote: By the time the war started, the Federation had resolved the shield issue, so it's more likely Idazmi7 was greatly over-stating fleet strength. Remember, the 112 ships of the 7th Fleet were seen as making an important offensive move against the Dominion in 'A Time to Stand', and to the Dominion, pulling together a fleet of over 1200 ships to stop the Federation in 'Sacrifice of Angels' was seen as putting together a large force. To both sides, the 2800 reinforcements due to come through the wormhole were seen as a game-changer - to the Federation and the Klingons, those reinforcements spelled destruction.

It's conceivable that as the war wore on, both sides steadily built up their forces, which might, come the events of the second half of season 7, lead to there being roughly 10,000 ships a piece (though all sides could have boosted their numbers by refitting old ships and sending them into battle - quicker than building all of them from scratch).
1) I seem to recall hearing talk of heavy losses on the Federation's side so I'd assume the Federation fleet was much larger then it was by the time we hear about.

The Breen energy damping weapon and the Dominion's ability to replace losses were the real problem.

2) Building ships doesn't actually seem to take all that long. It seems like a Galaxy Class takes about a year at most, and that seems to be the for the first batch.

Given there were Galaxy Wings serving in the war Dominion war it seems the Federation rather liked the Galaxy Class and built a rather large number of then once they worked the bugs out.

Sothis wrote: Yet the original point I was making here, is that Idazmi7 was arguing for a massive firepower advantage for the Dominion - an advantage that doesn't exist.
That is true.

Sothis wrote: So they do (or at least shuttles do). Cargo ships and transports though, would most likely have their own registries.
The cargo ships are likely civil craft most of the time.

Sothis wrote: We see the Borg use precisely one type of beam weapon in the show, that was first described as a laser, and never redefined since. In the absence of other data, what else should they be regarded as?
Nope, we see the borg use at least three different beam, and at least one pulse weapon, and there is no reason the borg can't quickly grow new and different weapons on the fly if it wants to.
Borg Tractor Beam
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:US ... g_cube.jpg

Borg Laser(used on naked hull)
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Bo ... g_beam.jpg

Unknown Beam used on a future tech upgraded Voyager when other stuff hadn't worked
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Bo ... oyager.jpg

Borg Pulse weapon
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Bo ... alizer.jpg

Sothis wrote: What proof is there that turbolasers are anything remotely like the lasers in 'The Outrageous Okuna'? And what proof is there from 'TOO' that any laser, regardless of power, is useless against Federation shields?
You appear to not understand my point.

NAVIGATIONAL DEFLECTOR
Franchise: Star Trek Series: Voyager Season: Episode: Title: Year of Hell Part 1 wrote: JANEWAY: Engines. 


TORRES: I'm doing my best. 


KIM: Captain, with the deflector down those micro-meteoroids are beginning to erode the hull. 


JANEWAY: Emergency power to the deflector. 


TUVOK: None available. 


JANEWAY: I'll be in Deflector control. 


TUVOK: Captain. That entire section has been designated hazard level four. 


JANEWAY: I know.
Franchise: Star Trek Series: Enterprise Season: 1 Episode: 1 Title: Broken Bow wrote: REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist.
HOW NAVIGATIONAL DEFLECTORS WORK
Franchise: Star Trek Series: The Next Generation Season: 5 Episode: 20 Title: Cost of Living wrote: PICARD: Activate a deflector dish. If we project a particle beam, we may be able to produce a disruptive nuclear effect within the core. 


WORF: Aye, sir. 


DATA: Impact in seventeen seconds. 


WORF: Particle beam activated. The target has been destroyed, Captain.
Franchise: Star Trek Series: Voyager Season: 4 Episode: 1 Title: Scorpion Part 2 wrote: KIM: It looks like the Borg have accessed deflector control. They're trying to realign the emitters.


CHAKOTAY: Shut them out.


KIM: They've bypassed security protocols.


(A green beam is emitted from the deflector dish.) 


TORRES: We're emitting a resonant gravitation beam. It's creating another singularity.


CHAKOTAY: Reverse course.


PARIS: We're fighting intense gravimetric distortion. I can't break free.
A Navigational Deflector in Star Trek clears a path for the ship so that the ship does not run into things like photons, protons, electron, space dust, etc while traveling near or faster then the speed of light. If they try to use high Impulse factors or warp without a working Navigational Deflector, the ship will at best be sandblasted to peaces. This means the Star Trek starships should be and are stated to be immune to a large number of mundane real world weapons so long as the Navigational Deflector or the shields are working because the attack simply never hits the starship.

THE QUESTION I WAS ASKING
You are assuming that a turbolaser or any other Star Wars weapon for that matter, can get through a navigational deflector without evidence. WHy should we assume a turbolaser can get through aStar Trek Navigational Deflector when there seems to be nothing comparable to a Star Trek type Navigational Deflector in Star Wars?
Sothis wrote: Where is stated the Runabouts received upgrades? And even if they did, should we assume this means they are suddenly as effective as a dedicated warship like a Jem'Hadar fighter?
A Danube is at a great disadvantage, but if you know where to shoot, and you are a skilled pilot it can be done in a one on one fight as seen in "Treachery, Faith and the great river", but fights like that are rare because Dominion fighters are normally deployed in threes.

Here is all the quotes you're asking for: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6518

Sothis wrote: Again, not quite following - which part of this argument are you addressing?
The recycling of the registry numbers. New numbers for every new ship, but never using the old numbers will lead to insanely large numbers and other problems fleet sizes.

Not recycling ship names I can see though.

Sothis wrote: And yet, with such a large fleet, the Federation would eventually be able to get reinforcements in to counter the Dominion. There was not even the suggestion of this, nor has there ever been the suggestion the Federation fleet is dispersed to such a degree.
Warp isn't as slow as you seem to think. Ship regularly travel tens of thousands of light years in weeks to months in Star Trek as shown in "TNG: The Chase". Really the fleet would be back within the first year of the Dominion War.

Sothis wrote:Which episode does this take place in?
TOS: A Taste of Armageddon
Yield: Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power

TOS: The Doomsday Machine
Yield: Unknown, but it was carving up planets and eating them in days at most, and it rendered antimatter nonreactive so the beam might as well have been composed of normal matter

Voyager hit with about an 8th of a planet killer beam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8HccXIseTE
Sothis wrote: Anti-shield weapons are one thing, but the weapon in 'Survivors' still had a measurable effect on the Enterprise's shields, that was quite specific. Low power shots had no effect, then later, the Husnock ship fired two more powerful bursts that collapsed the shields. Increased power to 600GW = shield failure. Key word being power.
1) No, nothing concerning weapons in TNG: The Survivors makes sense or is certain. Even at the end of the episode Picard isn't sure what happened
Franchise: Star Trek Series: The Next Generation Season: 3 Episode: 3 Title: The Survivors wrote: WORF: The vessel is firing jacketed streams of positrons and antiprotons. Equivalent firepower, forty megawatts. Shields are holding. (Boom, boom) Again, forty megawatts. No damage.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ors147.jpg
Franchise: Star Trek Series: The Next Generation Season: 3 Episode: 3 Title: The Survivors wrote: WORF: Shields are down. Captain, they hit us with four hundred gigawatts of particle energy. 


PICARD: Damage? 


WORF: Superficial, but I'm having trouble reassembling the shields. (another hit) Shields down. There is thermal damage to the hull. 


DATA: The warship is capable of striking us with far more powerful bursts.
Why is "EQUIVALENT FIREPOWER" first stated, and then "PARTICLE ENERGY later? Particle energy would be a measurement of a single particle, and as I understand it the measurement should not be in watts.

2) You can't show that the pulse fired from the non-exsistent ship brought down the shields or that the shields were brought down. All we know is that a powerful god like being with vast matter, energy, and mental manipulation powers wants to scare the Enterprise-D away.

3) You already admitted that yield can be irrelevant to dealing with the shields, but if what happened in The Survivors was real, why don't we see it done again by a group like the borg?

4) We know the antimatter wasn't what brought down the shields because we see more powerful antimatter beams hit Starfleet shields without causing similar effects, and yet you are using the yield from the antimatter as if it means something while ignoring the unknowns which are the relevant parts.
Sothis wrote: I assume by ROB you're referring to the being in 'Survivors', but his influence/creation of the Husnock ship has no bearing on what the Enterprise's sensors were telling the crew - and they told Worf in very specific terms.
1) ROB stands for Random Omnipotent Being. It's a catchall for godlike being.

2) Kevin was able to fool the Enterprise-D's sensors repeatedly. There is no reason to think there was a ship weather or not Kevin was telling the truth about the Husnock.

If Kevin was truthful about what he did then there can't have been a Husnock ship do to the fact he erased then from history.

If Kevin lied then there was never a Husnock to begin with, and therefore no ship.

3) You know we are only given data on the antimatter, but we know the Enterprise-D can shoot antimatter yet can do what Kevin did. This means the stated numbers have nothing to do with what brought down the shield.
Sothis wrote: What they demonstrate is not even close to the claimed possible feats.
I'm really confused by what you mean by this. What they demonstrate in TNG: Inheritance is exactly what they state they are planning on doing, and they do it on screen. There is no disputing this, and it is perfectly in line with a number of other events such as Encounter At Farpoint.

I now that if you look, you will find a number of threads here on the topic, or you could start a new thread by asking questions.
Sothis wrote: Perhaps I have this episode mixed up with 'Inheritance'. In any event, one of these episodes shows clear daylight above the people beamed into the hole, and no sign of the intense energy required to drill (any lingering heat would have been lethal to anyone beaming down, which suggests a chain-reaction method).
1) TNG: Inheritance shows a blue/white light at what may or may not be the top of the drilled hole, but we don't know the shape of the drilled hole, we don't know if they placed something that glows in the hole, but it could also be a mistake by the visual effects crew as those happen.

For the crew to be wrong about how far they were drilling requires a level of incompetence and ignorance that would make doing anything impossible.

2) In TNG: Inheritance they had to wait for the chamber to cool do to the phaser beam heating it.. The temperature rose by roughly 300 degrees Celsius in just a few seconds..
Sothis wrote: 'Inheritance' features them drilling a two-metre wide hole and managing to drill 1km every 2.5 seconds. At that rate, assuming the core of this planet is as deep as earth's core is (2890KM to the outer core), it would take 2 hours to drill to the core. The Enterprise clearly wasn't drilling for two hours, so it could not have drilled to the core.
1) How do you arrive at any of these numbers?

2) They're rather specific as to how far down they are planning to drill into the M-Class planet: http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nce009.jpg
I would suggest you adjust your figures to match.

Sothis wrote: Even if it did, it didn't 'implode' the mantle, it was trying to kick-start some sort of chain reaction to keep the core warm. This is not the same as destructive force.
They planned on melting the mantle of a M-Class planet by injecting plasma TNG: Inheritance.

There is Ent: The Forgotten where it is stated that a thousand NX-01 can blow up a planet. This would likely work by imploding the planet, and then letting it bounce back ripping itself apart.

Sothis wrote: There's an event (not attributed to any specific ship or government) where a plasma reaction destroys all life on a planet in 'The Chase', but no reference to weapons fire or bombardment.
Picard assumes it was a weapon, we know Phasers can do something similar, and of the parties involved the only ones who have been shown to have cloaks are the Klingons and Romulans.

Sothis wrote: In what episode is it stated that a thousand NX-01s could blow up a planet, or even destroy the surface? And in 'Booby Trap', we have no idea how many ships were involved or how long the feat took.
1) The Forgotten
Hell, it'd take at least a thousand starships like Enterprise to blow up an entire planet.
2) Given what we see of fleets in Star Trek it is doubtful that the fleet talked about in Booby Trap was more then a couple thousand ships, and it likely took a single coordinated shot from ever ship.

You basically have all your ships surround the planet, and then fire on it at once, and this will cause the planet to start to implode. Then when you stop firing the planet bounces back ripping itself apart. It's much more practical then the Death Star.
Sothis wrote: His reference for 97,000 ships still comes from a non-canon source and an inadequate understanding of the prefix system. Even the high-end references from 'When it Rains' do not support such vast numbers for the Federation fleet.
You do realize that there are only 4 episode of Deep Space Nine after When it Rains, and that they lost large numbers of ships already?

We don't know what percentage of the Klingon fleet 1500 ships make up.

Sothis wrote: Unfortunately, I have. Some people place a higher value on the appearance of a thing than its actual function.
Perhaps you could show me where this argument is used? I tend to find this sort of claim to be someone taking something out of context seemingly on purpose.

I've seen the claim that Stardestroyers are big, and therefore must be more powerful them smaller ships, but that simply the same flawed argument.

2) The Umbaran would imply you can judge Star Wars technology by looks from an in universe perspective, and it would imply that miniaturization and tech in general isn't what it could be for the galactic standard.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/umbaran
http://www.starwars.com/databank/umbaran-hover-tank
http://www.starwars.com/databank/umbaran-starfighter
http://www.starwars.com/databank/umbaran-crawler-tank

Sothis wrote: The function of Imperial warships is indeed to be scary- and to deploy bombers, fighters, ground vehicles, and be capable of engaging other ships. Star Destroyers are clearly multi-role craft, and are designed to be.
1) To be scary seems to take precedence above all else. The horrible AT-AT, the worse AT-ST, the waste of resources of the Death Stars, etc. It isn't a good long term strategy.

2) That is kind of a problem, jack of all trades and master of none only works so well. Each AT-AT basically need a Super Guppy to get from orbit to the ground and back, and this sort of thing results in a lot of wasted space that can't be used for the fighters or the Stardestroyer.

The Stardestroyer(1600 kilometers) design mostly works in universe do to being so much larger then almost anything anyone can get their hands on. Most ships are going to be about the size of an Alderaan Cruiser(126.68 meters), but a still smaller Mon Calamari Star Cruiser(1200 meter) is roughly speaking an even fight from what I can find.

Sothis wrote: And yet even the Federation realised, in the face of the Borg and the Dominion, that they could not afford to waste time and material building ships along those lines - hence why civilians no longer accompany Starfleet personnel on their ships, and there are no schools on new designs. It's a mark of progress that the Feds dropped such things from their ships.
There's actually no way to show what you are saying to be proven true or false as far as I know, and there's no evidence that all ships had families on them to begin with.

One problem is that you are likely to end up with children on ships if you have mixed sex crews, and most of the time having families won't be a problem. If you don't have time to off load passengers before entering combat then things have gone sideways very fast.
Sothis wrote: I don't doubt this conclusion. The threat from the Dominion was obvious and they didn't even need diplomacy to get the Cardassians to join them - the Cardies were in a state of complete disarray, partly due to the Dominion, and were desperate. Persuading the Romulans to sit out wasn't exactly a masterstroke (no one seeks out a potentially devastating war), and they dangled incentives at the Breen toward the end of the war, not exactly hard.
Have you seen the new REBELS shorts? The Imperial go out of their way to get on everyone's bad side, and it's even questionable if they follow their own laws. Their all stick and no carrot.

The Dominion used the carrot, and at least did its best to appear lawful. while expecting agreements beyond join or die. Despite the Cardassians wanting to invade Bajro, the Dominion would not let them do to a nonaggression pact.

From my point of view Star Wars is a simple good verses evil while Star Trek is more shades of grey

Sothis wrote: Quinn interfered with Riker's life and as a result Riker existed to help stop the Borg, but this is not the same as the Q we know and love, or the Continuum, interfering on a regular basis to help humanity or the Federation.
The Q Continuum knows what its members do, and doesn't let them just do whatever they want to. Every action a Q has taken has always resulted in something beneficial for the Federation in the long run.

Q inspired scientists in subtle fashions at just the right time.

The Q ensured the Federation had all the right people and technology to repel the Borg in Best of Both Worlds.

As a direct result of Q's actions the Federation drastically improved its ship designs, ramped up Galaxy Class production, built its first pure warship, and began designing and implementing more powerful weapons like Quantum Torpedos, and does all of this just in time to be ready for the Dominion war.

There is a very obvious pattern to the Q's actions. The Q are actively helping the United Federation of Planets while overtly playing the villain, but then they've been manipulating groups for so long they basically created all the factions in Star Trek.

Sothis wrote: And the Empire could also do what modern militaries do and set up training facilities across their territory that mimic other locations and scenarios.
A holodeck can create a copy of an entire planet in seconds. The scale of the construct is basically irrelevant.

Real world and Star Wars can do a few blocks in days to weeks, and then they have to rebuild it every time, and can't move it to where they may need it.

Sothis wrote: We don't know what the breakdown is. With a million systems it wouldn't matter if only one out of fifty Imperial worlds were as developed as Coruscant or even 24th Century-era earth - that's still a lot of developed worlds for various facilities.
Given most planet I can recall appear to be lightly populated compared to real world Earth, and Coruscant is unique I doubt this to be true. Just about every battle in the Clone Wars was over a single city, and even important planets like Rylth had tiny populations with mud huts.

You're also forgetting that that the militaries in Star Wars are tiny for the size of the size of the setting. Remeber the 2 or 3 million clone army, or the Rebel Fleet in episode 6?

Sothis wrote: I don't seem to recall suggesting the Empire can move planets, but then, they don't need to.
In response to the statement that holodecks are used for mission training you stated the Empire likely has entire planet(s) for that sort of thing, but that just shows you are confusing basic training with pre covert ops training that groups like Navy S.E.A.L. and Delts Force do before missions. By misunderstanding me you claimed the Empire moves planets on a regular basis, and I wanted to be sure of what you meant as I've seen otherwise reasonable people have at least one quirk.

We also see the laser tag games used to train the Clones. Holodecksa are simply better do to flexibility and ease of use.

Sothis wrote: They have never been demonstrated to make weapons, or large-scale parts for ships, or anti-matter, and this is the reason ships have cargo bays - to have on hand other materials they can't replicate.
Voyager built multiple shuttles that had warpdrives and weapons, two delta flyers from scratch, parts for Voyager itself, and about 80 something photon torpedos which are ftl weapons. While this was all done off screen, Voyager's crew still only had Voyager's replacators to work with.

Out of everything we see the only thing Voyager ever had a shortage of was hydrogen for fusion and antimatter production and poorly designed ram scoops. This is because replators convert energy to matter and back
Sothis wrote: I wouldn't call magnetic fields weird - they are present on every planet, as is thick rock on terrestrial planets. Beaming through shields is rare, risky and usually not even tried.
You've just claimed that you can't transport on to starships in Star trek without realizing it. EPS conduits and such in Starships don't mess with transporters, and yet far weaker fields cause problems. Clearly there is something odd/more complex about the magnetic fields that screw with transporters.

Transporting through shields is easily done if those transporting are more technologically advanced. The Borg easily do it.
Sothis wrote: Transporters were seen as unwise to use in bad conditions in 'The Enemy', dense metals in 'Hero Worship', and by natural minerals in 'Insurrection'.
So in "The Enemy" we has storms that are worse then the EPS conduits that run throughout starships, and that doesn't sound odd to you?

In "Hero Worship" the problem was victurium alloys and undefined shielding which may or may not have been the victurium.

In "Insurrection" the problem is is a fictional mineral called kelbonite.

You are treating purely fictional exotics with unknown properties as if they are mundane.

Sothis wrote: I don't actually claim the Emperor can pass on his powers - I seem to use the words 'did not have an official heir', so I am not claiming there was an Imperial tradition to do this as you seem to think I am. There was no Senate to grant anyone else emergency powers either, by ROTJ. Hence why the Empire would have almost certainly fallen into infighting. This is all irrelevant, since the original point was that a typical argument is all about the Rebels (being a rag-tag band) were able to undermine and ultimately trigger the fall of the Empire, and a lot of people take this to mean the Federation could too.
1) "and because the Emperor did not have an official heir" implies you think the Emperor could name someone as his heir, and that you think there could have been an empire after his death which legally becomes the Galactic Republic again the moment the Emperor gives up his emergency powers which he lost when he died. Episode 1, 2,3 and the Episode 6 Special Edition pretty much gutted the EU you are talking about as well.

2) By Retiurn of the Jedi, the Rebellion was a fully functional military with the backing of many planetary governments. Rag tag groups don't fight with top of the line weapons and backing from top of the line warships. They were as rag tag as the CIS was, but without one person controlling both sides.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/rebel-alliance
The Rebels were better armed then the Empire.

3) Those riots you are talking about appear to be organized parties because everyone came to hate the Empire by that point

4) Kill the Emperor and then leave, and the GFFA will be happy peace at any cost hippies they are.
Sothis wrote: Tricorders can be blocked and tricked. They are not omnipotent devices.
While technically true you pretty much need to do it on purpose, and top of the line ECM in Star Wars only seems to deal with the electromagnetic spectrum, and the Federation is use to dealing with better ECM. Dac was using radar and sonar for interplanetary sensors.

Voyager was able to copy a Slipstream drive with just a few scans, and Archer's crew could date things by using a method called quantum dating which only required a quick scan.

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