spacebattles has splintered

Did a related website in the community go down? Come back up? Relocate to a new address? Install pop-up advertisements?

This forum is for discussion of these sorts of issues.
User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu May 15, 2014 10:15 pm

He's already been there for days and hasn't posted. There's perhaps nothing to add.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Narsil » Fri May 16, 2014 8:41 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:She's already been there for days and hasn't posted. There's perhaps nothing to add.
Fixed that for you.

theta_pinch
Bridge Officer
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by theta_pinch » Fri May 16, 2014 10:41 pm

Narsil wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:He's already been there for days and hasn't posted. There's perhaps nothing to add.
Fixed that for you.
Fixed that for you.

User avatar
Khas
Starship Captain
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: Protoss Embassy to the Federation

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Khas » Fri May 16, 2014 11:11 pm

Ah shit, is this gonna be a repeat of the Great Serafina-Vs-WILGA Transsexual Debate of 2010?

theta_pinch
Bridge Officer
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by theta_pinch » Sat May 17, 2014 12:00 am

Khas wrote:Ah shit, is this gonna be a repeat of the Great Serafina-Vs-WILGA Transsexual Debate of 2010?
No I was just kidding.

Admiral Breetai
Starship Captain
Posts: 1813
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun May 18, 2014 4:09 am

Khas wrote:Ah shit, is this gonna be a repeat of the Great Serafina-Vs-WILGA Transsexual Debate of 2010?
can I have a link to that?

User avatar
Khas
Starship Captain
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: Protoss Embassy to the Federation

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Khas » Sun May 18, 2014 4:43 am

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=9&t=1528

Prepare for 40 pages of mud-slinging, though.

Kahless
Padawan
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:29 am

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Kahless » Sun May 18, 2014 10:28 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:She's already been there for days and hasn't posted. There's perhaps nothing to add.
My post was blocked.

http://i.imgur.com/VbOvPuO.jpg

But luckily I have old as hell alt. It makes my skin crawl but moral cowardice on your staff's part has forced me to.

Basically, you're allowed to be as hateful as you want to be but if I say that you wouldn't know what to do with a woman as hot as me along with with an angler fish dance gif is unacceptable. Your faux civility is tiresome and fools nobody.

I'm sorry that you are unable to cope with the idea of showing actual civility to people or showing them respect. Maybe one day you'll join the modern world or at minimum rise to the standards of Es Arkajae.

P.S: You totally couldn't handle this.

Image

I'm out.
Last edited by Kahless on Sun May 18, 2014 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kahless
Padawan
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:29 am

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Kahless » Sun May 18, 2014 10:30 am

I know I said I was out but:
Khas wrote:http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=9&t=1528

Prepare for 40 pages of mud-slinging, though.
This thread was your guy's lowest moment.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Narsil » Sun May 18, 2014 11:03 am

You know what I don't understand about all this? The persistent transphobia of some people here. I mean, I literally do not understand the mindset behind it. It's usually the case of someone who has, as science has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, been born with the wrong body for their brain chemistry. It isn't always this exact reason, but regardless it is almost always the case of someone whose mind is trapped within the wrong body. And since the brain itself is the more important part, this person (regardless of whatever the rest of their biology says) should be considered to have the gender that they identify with.

Now, many people have raised what I like to call 'the normality argument', which isn't actually an argument at all but a logical fallacy. Just because something isn't common or 'normal' does not make it wrong. And in fact trying to enforce your normative views on these individuals is itself wrong.

Allow me to explain, using homosexuality as a starting point;

Let's think of a gay man who was forced to try and adjust to society's norms, and let's think about what would happen to him. He would, under certain laws, either be sent to prison, outright executed, or forced to endure treatments to try and curtail his sex drive. Assuming the latter, the man would suffer physiological and psychological side-effects of this treatment, and would naturally as a result of his horrible situation, being treated as little more than an aberration in society... enter a deep and dark depression from which it seems the only way out is to take his own life.

His being gay caused no harm to anyone. It did not cause harm to himself, either, as the only harm done to him was because of society's treatment of him. Even if we assume that homosexuality is a choice (which it is not!), it is still his choice, and one which he ought to have been free to make.

But you see, I'm not talking about a random hypothetical individual here. I'm talking about a specific individual called Alan Turing, the person who could be termed the father of modern computing and without whom you would not be posting your hateful spiel all over the fucking internet. This right here is why I hate the term 'normal', because the term, as it is often used, is little more than a way to try and marginalise and oppress those are different. I have suffered personally from this, due to being autistic.

But ultimately when trying to determine why, I get stuck. I try to distance myself from the attitudes of those who call themselves 'rationalists', due to many of their own horrible viewpoints on women, but I do consider myself at least a vaguely rational person. And from my perspective, the hatred for gay and trans people isn't just irrational, it's nonsensically irrational. There is no reason I can determine as to why you would hate someone for who he or she feels like he or she is, or who he or she would fall in love with. It's pointless and hateful and makes no fucking sense.

Why would a sensible, feeling human being act this way towards another?

Please tell me honestly, because I'm afraid that I do not understand.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Praeothmin » Sun May 18, 2014 12:32 pm

It definitely wasn't the site's best moments, the Kor/Serafine debate, but both sides were being hot-heads at one point or another...


But I have to agree with Narsil on this:
Why is there even a debate?
Athena feels she is a women, in her mind, just like gays are attracted to people of the same sex, in their minds.
Why is it fine for gays, why are they seemingly more accepted here then transexuals?

theta_pinch
Bridge Officer
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by theta_pinch » Sun May 18, 2014 1:39 pm

Narsil wrote:You know what I don't understand about all this? The persistent transphobia of some people here. I mean, I literally do not understand the mindset behind it. It's usually the case of someone who has, as science has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, been born with the wrong body for their brain chemistry. It isn't always this exact reason, but regardless it is almost always the case of someone whose mind is trapped within the wrong body. And since the brain itself is the more important part, this person (regardless of whatever the rest of their biology says) should be considered to have the gender that they identify with.

Now, many people have raised what I like to call 'the normality argument', which isn't actually an argument at all but a logical fallacy. Just because something isn't common or 'normal' does not make it wrong. And in fact trying to enforce your normative views on these individuals is itself wrong.

Allow me to explain, using homosexuality as a starting point;

Let's think of a gay man who was forced to try and adjust to society's norms, and let's think about what would happen to him. He would, under certain laws, either be sent to prison, outright executed, or forced to endure treatments to try and curtail his sex drive. Assuming the latter, the man would suffer physiological and psychological side-effects of this treatment, and would naturally as a result of his horrible situation, being treated as little more than an aberration in society... enter a deep and dark depression from which it seems the only way out is to take his own life.

His being gay caused no harm to anyone. It did not cause harm to himself, either, as the only harm done to him was because of society's treatment of him. Even if we assume that homosexuality is a choice (which it is not!), it is still his choice, and one which he ought to have been free to make.

But you see, I'm not talking about a random hypothetical individual here. I'm talking about a specific individual called Alan Turing, the person who could be termed the father of modern computing and without whom you would not be posting your hateful spiel all over the fucking internet. This right here is why I hate the term 'normal', because the term, as it is often used, is little more than a way to try and marginalise and oppress those are different. I have suffered personally from this, due to being autistic.

But ultimately when trying to determine why, I get stuck. I try to distance myself from the attitudes of those who call themselves 'rationalists', due to many of their own horrible viewpoints on women, but I do consider myself at least a vaguely rational person. And from my perspective, the hatred for gay and trans people isn't just irrational, it's nonsensically irrational. There is no reason I can determine as to why you would hate someone for who he or she feels like he or she is, or who he or she would fall in love with. It's pointless and hateful and makes no fucking sense.

Why would a sensible, feeling human being act this way towards another?

Please tell me honestly, because I'm afraid that I do not understand.


Well technically from a scientific perspective a male or female is determined by 1. The combination of chromosomes; x and x or y and x and 2. By biological characteristics. From an objective scientific perspective the brain has nothing to do with it. Ask any biologist and they'll agree. Also it technically falls under the category of a disease because it is caused by too little or too much of certain hormones similar to other diseases such as those caused by the production of too little growth hormone. There is really no difference between this and other hormonal diseases.


Edit: no I did not write this because I hate them; I wrote this to give the biological perspective.
Double edit: If the brain was as important as you suggest then ther would be no way for a doctor to figure out which sex a fetus/baby is before or after birth. They'd have to wait multiple years.
Triple edit: interesting to see another autistic person here. I have autism too.

Admiral Breetai
Starship Captain
Posts: 1813
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun May 18, 2014 2:40 pm

Kahless wrote: This thread was your guy's lowest moment.
So this is the bad ass lady what got under Kratmans skin so much? He must be fuming extra hard now

any way, I don't know you enough to judge whether what happened to you was deserving or not, only that if you really did take your issues out on the discussion section then you should have been temporarily demoted until you got your shit together, and that for what it's worth I am sorry, they handled everything like a bunch of fucking dunces. Any way with that out of the way

You are simply fucking wrong. No one here is being hateful, the objections raised against Transgendered people in this thread are rooted in either not understanding why the head shrinks don't label it one thing when they consistently label all other identity issues barring some exceptions that thing. Or objecting from a biological stand point..no one here is crapping all over you and calling you subhuman , no ones advocating for your death or genocide. No one besides one user is asking to treat you differently

simply put the vast majority of us don't give one single fuck that you had a sex change.me especially my approach to all this is "the net is fake and no contact you make is real..leave your personal fucking life out of it" so I don't ask and I don't tell - because it's none of my god damn business (and I consider it basic courtesy not to prod and pry) and it would have kept being none of my business but for your defenders making it an issue and feeling the need to label everyone who dared to object to your conduct as transphobes. They opted for the low blow and made the issue public to which point I wondered why the fuck the staff didn't opt to "retire" you temporarily while you were transitioning and dealing with all that..because it makes sense in context (re anyone going through a massive personal upheaval not just "hurr durr cause she's getting change!" but anyone in a situation where they are dealing with issues that might affect their decision) to do it.

Simply put: people here are taking issue with your abuse towards them in the old wars vs trek stuff..the transgendered issue took a backseat and was brought up solely in the context of "it's even more the staffs fault then..what a bunch of idiots" and not "lawl Athena sucks as a mod cause she used to be a dood"

Also you really are not in a position to take the moral high ground when your supporters are running around making threats on users kids (ancient) or threatening the admins..as they have claimed and when users made threads objecting to that and were attacked..well someone who could have stopped all of that was rather silent. That's pretty low of you to have sat and ate popcorn while a site you invested that much time in whose userbase you were charged with protecting imploded and got abused. You have no moral position beyond "hypocrite"

So spare me, what little I knew of you I respected..until they screwed you and you reacted less like a responsible leader who cares about the user base and more like a bully who has no problem with abuse so long as its heaped against people she doesn't like

or to sum it up: off the soap box lady, we aren't interested so don't waste our time.
Narsil wrote:You know what I don't understand about all this? The persistent transphobia of some people here. I mean, I literally do not understand the mindset behind it.
it's amusing how you think those of us who object to the concept are doing so on the grounds of irrational fear as opposed too "wait hold on a minute, in every other case of identity issues it's a mental illness but in this it isn't? Says who and why? What's the science behind this? Did headshrinks cave politically as they often do..or were there legitimate studies done to determine this?"

or in O's case "wait, fuck anatomy doesn't work like that..."

I can speak for myself in that I don't give a single fuck about whether a person is transgendered or not that wont really affect how I interact with them, my issue is more with the system than the individual, never mind that it takes an especially horrible human being to be prejudiced towards someone based entirely on their state of mind (one way or another here, not implying anything) so so, no thank you...on the bigotry front


so kindly piss off with that nonsense and lets not try and intimidate people into silence via false accusations of bigotry.
Praeothmin wrote:It definitely wasn't the site's best moments, the Kor/Serafine debate, but both sides were being hot-heads at one point or another...


But I have to agree with Narsil on this:
Why is there even a debate?
Athena feels she is a women, in her mind, just like gays are attracted to people of the same sex, in their minds.
Why is it fine for gays, why are they seemingly more accepted here then transexuals?
Many people feel they are animals trapped in a human body, some even think they are dinosaurs.

This is called mental illness

yet Athene's situation and the situation of millions of others are not and I wonder if this was determined by legitimate scientific study or cynical catering to political pressure so as not to be seen as a bigot.

I have no objection with her, and there's no way in hell I wont refer to her as a she..because as it stands now, that'd be fucking prejudice and its also rather impolite.

I wont judge either, I'm only commenting on how this seems to fit the criteria all of the above does.

That it is or isn't makes no difference to me on a personal level..whether it is or isn't doesn't matter it's an idiotic reason to be prejudiced towards a group of people no matter what.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun May 18, 2014 6:02 pm

Kahless wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:She's already been there for days and hasn't posted. There's perhaps nothing to add.
My post was blocked.

http://i.imgur.com/VbOvPuO.jpg

But luckily I have old as hell alt. It makes my skin crawl but moral cowardice on your staff's part has forced me to.

Basically, you're allowed to be as hateful as you want to be but if I say that you wouldn't know what to do with a woman as hot as me along with with an angler fish dance gif is unacceptable. Your faux civility is tiresome and fools nobody.

I'm sorry that you are unable to cope with the idea of showing actual civility to people or showing them respect. Maybe one day you'll join the modern world or at minimum rise to the standards of Es Arkajae.

P.S: You totally couldn't handle this.

Image

I'm out.
This is going to be tough for mods to sort out. I cannot comment on the reasons of the post being blocked, but I can quickly comment on what you said.
There's no hatred to find, contrary to what you claim, but I know that's a classic accusation. Along the same line of claiming there's a [something]phobia when there is no fear involved anywhere. It's just simple facts and laws of nature. It doesn't mean we shouldn't provide help, but we must not forget what we are at the risk of losing it from sight in the process of being kind with the needing. Even if it sounds somehow ruthless from your point of view, these limits also are necessary for our species and our future.
I also have no interest in fake "women", sorry.
PS: I also learned that in Australia, there's also a third or middle ground sex status recognized. Could be worth checking out?

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun May 18, 2014 6:52 pm

OK, offtopic fest.

b4 Mike snaps...




Praeothmin wrote:It definitely wasn't the site's best moments, the Kor/Serafine debate, but both sides were being hot-heads at one point or another...


But I have to agree with Narsil on this:
Why is there even a debate?
Athena feels she is a women, in her mind, just like gays are attracted to people of the same sex, in their minds.
Why is it fine for gays, why are they seemingly more accepted here then transexuals?
Why should people accept the proper definition of a woman to be altered as to allow dysfunctional people to be considered part of the norm, that is, part of what actually works as planned and as needed?
Why should we also suddenly become crazy and live in that oddly abstract simile of real life where suddenly, a cat can't be called a cat?







Narsil wrote:You know what I don't understand about all this? The persistent transphobia of some people here.
Then don't try, because you're looking for a scare that does not exist.
I mean, I literally do not understand the mindset behind it. It's usually the case of someone who has, as science has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, been born with the wrong body for their brain chemistry.
If you find your science at the back of a box of cereals, maybe. Otherwise, in the real world, it's patently false.
I mean, did you read that thread?
The thing that didn't develop as intended is the brain, only the brain. In the case of a male having sexual identification issues (in other words, a form of mental disorder, regardless of the reasons as to why this happened), everything was built for being male. DNA and gonads were ready and waiting for a male brain to be grown, but somehow down the line, it went wrong.
It isn't always this exact reason, but regardless it is almost always the case of someone whose mind is trapped within the wrong body.
Again, no. That's the story they peddle but it's *totally false*.
And since the brain itself is the more important part, this person (regardless of whatever the rest of their biology says) should be considered to have the gender that they identify with.
Considering that it's not just about the brain, this claim will simply meet a resounding no.
Or should we officially recognize the next wazoo to be Napoleon because he's dead certain he's him? This rather harsh comparison helps convey the fact that a mistake in subjective perception (if that's not a pleonasm) shouldn't be taken at face value.
Now, many people have raised what I like to call 'the normality argument', which isn't actually an argument at all but a logical fallacy. Just because something isn't common or 'normal' does not make it wrong.
You fail at logic. It's precisely because it is out of normality (which is fairly straight forward as far as sex goes) that it is wrong.
The very fact that there's a problem of identification between the brain and the body should tell anyone that there's something wrong.
This "debate" is a waste of time.
And in fact trying to enforce your normative views on these individuals is itself wrong.
No. The norm IS the norm. It's called a norm for a reason and has been established and understood that way since man is man.
It is craziness that we shall allow the abnormal to enter the realm of what belongs to the norm for no good reason other than some graceless spin doctoring and a bunch of fallacious arguments pushed forth by some people exploiting the distress of the transsexual people.
The definition of the norm answers a need of conforming to what is ideal and functional, that is, the only parameters adequate to the survival of our species.
That's why in tens of thousands of years no loon ever had the stupid idea of wanting to define a woman based on anything that fails to precisely be a woman.
If it ain't broken (and the definition certainly isn't, transsexual people are), then why repair it?

But maybe we should have sent a probe in space with an engraving of an armless man standing alongside a woman sporting a penis?
That would have made an intriguing StarTrek motion picture. :)
Allow me to explain, using homosexuality as a starting point;

Let's think of a gay man who was forced to try and adjust to society's norms, and let's think about what would happen to him. He would, under certain laws, either be sent to prison, outright executed, or forced to endure treatments to try and curtail his sex drive. Assuming the latter, the man would suffer physiological and psychological side-effects of this treatment, and would naturally as a result of his horrible situation, being treated as little more than an aberration in society... enter a deep and dark depression from which it seems the only way out is to take his own life.

His being gay caused no harm to anyone. It did not cause harm to himself, either, as the only harm done to him was because of society's treatment of him. Even if we assume that homosexuality is a choice (which it is not!), it is still his choice, and one which he ought to have been free to make.

But you see, I'm not talking about a random hypothetical individual here. I'm talking about a specific individual called Alan Turing, the person who could be termed the father of modern computing and without whom you would not be posting your hateful spiel all over the fucking internet. This right here is why I hate the term 'normal', because the term, as it is often used, is little more than a way to try and marginalise and oppress those are different. I have suffered personally from this, due to being autistic.

But ultimately when trying to determine why, I get stuck. I try to distance myself from the attitudes of those who call themselves 'rationalists', due to many of their own horrible viewpoints on women, but I do consider myself at least a vaguely rational person. And from my perspective, the hatred for gay and trans people isn't just irrational, it's nonsensically irrational. There is no reason I can determine as to why you would hate someone for who he or she feels like he or she is, or who he or she would fall in love with. It's pointless and hateful and makes no fucking sense.

Why would a sensible, feeling human being act this way towards another?

Please tell me honestly, because I'm afraid that I do not understand.
Typical. It's like monday training.
Let's sum up: Excessive appeal to emotions + automatic and obligated martyrdom + accusation of hatred + warped logic + ignorance of science.

I don't recall anyone here claiming that Turing was an idiot nor deserved anything he got.

Now, please, before we start talking about nazi camps in this obvious wake of generalizations and strawman arguments, I'd like to remind people here that I already claimed the Godwin point.
Thank you.

Post Reply