spacebattles has splintered

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Mith
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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mith » Fri May 09, 2014 8:32 pm

sonofccn wrote:Well, at the risk of rekindling a horrifically bad debate from the forum's past, I believe it would be fair to point out the above position is not universally accepted, either on the web or in society in general, and while I can not speak for Oragahn I know I wouldn't consider Athena female and would consider it a contradiction of my beliefs to be forced to utilize terms like "her" and "she" in relation to Athena.

Oh and sorry if this sounds like I'm being brusque or rude or that I'm attacking you or anything. That truly is not my intention...I don't know. Wasn't really planning on replying to this thread but saw you and Oragahn's exchanges and felt like I had to say something.

Granted this is still not the wierdest discussion I've been part of, not even by a long shot. So there's that.:)
This isn't up to a vote. By that same line of reasoning, the ICS should be up to a vote of fanboys. Wikipedia:
Genetic studies
In 2008, a study was performed to attempt to find a link between genes and transsexuality. The researchers compared 112 male-to-female transsexuals (both androphilic and gynephilic), mostly already undergoing hormone treatment, with 258 cis-gendered male controls. The male-to-female transsexuals were more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. The authors say that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might prevent complete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals and thereby cause a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.[108][109]
Athene never developed a full masculine persona, at least according to this study, since males are developed from females. Basically, she never got the software patch (which is kinda insulting to women, but I think my point is clear). She isn't some dude who wants to dress like a girl--she has a female persona and there's really nothing that can be done to "fix" this, other than to give her what she wants.

It certainly isn't polite or even fair to use terms that she would find offensive or hurtful, simply because you either can't wrap your head around the concept (I'm not trying to be insulting here) or because your other values prevent you from accepting that this sort of thing happens. And I will admit, the field is somewhat unexplored, so we don't have all the answers as to why this happens or how. But current evidence suggested this is the case.

I also really don't want to see anyone using that as an underhanded tactic of demeaning someone. If people dislike Athene because they felt she abused her power--fine. But I don't want to see anyone making cheap shots.

I'm not accusing anyone, especially if they have personal views that conflict with this that has nothing to do with hurting anyone, but at the very least, people need to be polite when speaking to her or where she visits.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri May 09, 2014 8:49 pm

Mith wrote: I'm sorry, what?

I'd think she'd want you to refer to her as well, her gender, but there's no rule against it that I know of, although they might cite you for trolling. I'm not sure why you'd consider her a him, since she's transgender.
So I'd consider him a [?]. I remember that in India they at least had the intelligence to "invent" a new category, thanks to hinduism still maintaining a solid cultural and normative base in that country.
If I only had the choice between he and she, I'd obviously go with he, knowing that it's a dysfunctional he. I wouldn't be there for trolling but I don't see why I'd be the one having to tolerate whatever new opinion that sems to be de rigueur while things have worked well for millions of years until now (and how funnily all those appeals to tolerance rise in an age of utter decadence). They'd just be as non tolerant in their refusal to have people (like me) defend a proper definition of man & woman, essential to the understanding of mankind. We're a sexual species, the norm is the functional heterosexuality. Anything else is out of said norm.
Transgender isn't someone believing they're a she instead of a he. Their brains basically developed a female brain--their brain is literally female, while the rest is male. It's like someone uploading a Wii's program into a 360 and wondering why it won't accept 360 games. She's always been a she, persona wise. Getting a sex change is really just rigging your 360 hardware into something akin to a Wii's.
I already know that part about the brain.
But you're wrong on this whole surgery thing. Contrary to the disingenuous idea you repeated (not your fault but I don't think you really thought it through), such a thing as "sex change" never happens. It does not exist.
This is nothing more than a clever branding, a complete alteration of the meaning of words, which is already worrying in itself.
Sex is not just about how one looks or how far you can delve into an orgiastic simulacrum of scalpel wizardry and bloody tissues confetti. It's about having real, functional, sexual organs. Add to that the notion of behaving accordingly to them in the appropriate way. Thankfully for mankind, such is the norm. Any exceptions only confirm the rule. Changing the natural law in favour of the exception is not acceptable.
These people, the transgenders, they never swap sex organs in their "sex change". They only see their fertile sexual organs be destroyed and they become sterile. Period.
Some of the transsexuals go one step farther and try to have some sort of realistic sexual organs, but it's only mimicry, and only affects the peripheral appearance of the sexual organs of the targeted sex.
The name of that is fake. It's, ha, some kind of faith (what a twisted irony there): they lie to themselves and they command you to believe into those lies. Or more aptly, they're told lies, and some of them repeat those lies like zealots.
Will I buy into that bullfest?

Not a snowball's chance in hell. ;)

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri May 09, 2014 9:01 pm

Mith wrote:
sonofccn wrote:Well, at the risk of rekindling a horrifically bad debate from the forum's past, I believe it would be fair to point out the above position is not universally accepted, either on the web or in society in general, and while I can not speak for Oragahn I know I wouldn't consider Athena female and would consider it a contradiction of my beliefs to be forced to utilize terms like "her" and "she" in relation to Athena.

Oh and sorry if this sounds like I'm being brusque or rude or that I'm attacking you or anything. That truly is not my intention...I don't know. Wasn't really planning on replying to this thread but saw you and Oragahn's exchanges and felt like I had to say something.

Granted this is still not the wierdest discussion I've been part of, not even by a long shot. So there's that.:)
This isn't up to a vote. By that same line of reasoning, the ICS should be up to a vote of fanboys. Wikipedia:
Genetic studies
In 2008, a study was performed to attempt to find a link between genes and transsexuality. The researchers compared 112 male-to-female transsexuals (both androphilic and gynephilic), mostly already undergoing hormone treatment, with 258 cis-gendered male controls. The male-to-female transsexuals were more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. The authors say that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might prevent complete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals and thereby cause a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.[108][109]
Thanks for the link.
Now, what is not up to a vote? We're talking about what constitutes a proper definition of a woman.
This is just one study, funded by whoever's money, which by the way might confirm what I said about the importance of sexual gonads and hormones.
But in the end, they only speak of "suggestions" that some variation in a gene might contribute to an inferior effect of hormones on the growing body.
I'm afraid this in no way changes anything to what makes a proper female.
Shouldn't we define what makes a female on the basis of an ideal and still mainstream template instead of relying on the odd dysfunctional one?
So in the end, we don't invalidate the rather essential idea that fertile man + fertile woman + intercourse = kiddo.
Not fertile man + sterile whatever + sodomy = smelly dick.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by sonofccn » Sat May 10, 2014 12:26 am

Mith wrote:
sonofccn wrote:Well, at the risk of rekindling a horrifically bad debate from the forum's past, I believe it would be fair to point out the above position is not universally accepted, either on the web or in society in general, and while I can not speak for Oragahn I know I wouldn't consider Athena female and would consider it a contradiction of my beliefs to be forced to utilize terms like "her" and "she" in relation to Athena.

Oh and sorry if this sounds like I'm being brusque or rude or that I'm attacking you or anything. That truly is not my intention...I don't know. Wasn't really planning on replying to this thread but saw you and Oragahn's exchanges and felt like I had to say something.

Granted this is still not the wierdest discussion I've been part of, not even by a long shot. So there's that.:)
This isn't up to a vote. By that same line of reasoning, the ICS should be up to a vote of fanboys. Wikipedia:
Genetic studies
In 2008, a study was performed to attempt to find a link between genes and transsexuality. The researchers compared 112 male-to-female transsexuals (both androphilic and gynephilic), mostly already undergoing hormone treatment, with 258 cis-gendered male controls. The male-to-female transsexuals were more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals. The authors say that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might prevent complete masculinization of the brain in male to female transsexuals and thereby cause a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.[108][109]
Athene never developed a full masculine persona, at least according to this study, since males are developed from females. Basically, she never got the software patch (which is kinda insulting to women, but I think my point is clear). She isn't some dude who wants to dress like a girl--she has a female persona and there's really nothing that can be done to "fix" this, other than to give her what she wants.

It certainly isn't polite or even fair to use terms that she would find offensive or hurtful, simply because you either can't wrap your head around the concept (I'm not trying to be insulting here) or because your other values prevent you from accepting that this sort of thing happens. And I will admit, the field is somewhat unexplored, so we don't have all the answers as to why this happens or how. But current evidence suggested this is the case.

I also really don't want to see anyone using that as an underhanded tactic of demeaning someone. If people dislike Athene because they felt she abused her power--fine. But I don't want to see anyone making cheap shots.

I'm not accusing anyone, especially if they have personal views that conflict with this that has nothing to do with hurting anyone, but at the very least, people need to be polite when speaking to her or where she visits.
Even accepting fully the study it's ramifications as well as well as the proper response is very much "up to a vote" and can only move forward by argument and debate not dikates which, fairly or unfairly, some of us on this side sense.

But I'm not trying to argue which side is more correct, I have neither the inclination nor interest in the subject, merely explaining the opposing side which you seemed to express genuine puzzlement on the existence of.

I certainly do not advocate being needlessly discourteous or rude to fellow posters, indeed I would argue I strive to be polite to my fellows, but respect and civility are two way streets. I do not see why my beliefs must be forcibly broken, and worse that I knowingly lie, merely for the "happiness" of a debater whom I am indifferent too if not disagreeable with.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mith » Sat May 10, 2014 6:10 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, what is not up to a vote? We're talking about what constitutes a proper definition of a woman.
Alright, you seem to be entirely focused on physical organs--I can accept that no, Athene doesn't have all the same organs. I am speaking strictly from her personality; she has a female personality and therefore desires to be female. It's a logical desire and I think referring to a transgender as anything else can be very hurtful.
This is just one study, funded by whoever's money, which by the way might confirm what I said about the importance of sexual gonads and hormones.
There isn't anything there that suggests something out of place. If I recall my biology, male fetuses start out as female, then convert. It's not illogical to reason that some don't finish making the bridge from male to female. I will admit that there's a great deal we still don't understand.
But in the end, they only speak of "suggestions" that some variation in a gene might contribute to an inferior effect of hormones on the growing body.
I'm afraid this in no way changes anything to what makes a proper female.
Shouldn't we define what makes a female on the basis of an ideal and still mainstream template instead of relying on the odd dysfunctional one?
No one is contesting that the physical body is male, but the issue is that Athene developed a female personality. It simply did not cross the rest of the bridge from female to male. And your argument works from a true scottsman fallacy. If someone took a magical ray and pointed it at you, turning you into a female, would it be wrong for you to identify as male, regardless of the actual hardware you've been installed in?

This isn't about physical configuration; that's already been addressed and admitted to. What we are focusing on is persona. Unlike the rest of us males, she didn't reach the proper stage of male mental development. Technically, you first existed as a chick. You then developed into a male.
So in the end, we don't invalidate the rather essential idea that fertile man + fertile woman + intercourse = kiddo.
Not fertile man + sterile whatever + sodomy = smelly dick.
That's rather a crude way to refer to the situation, when you consider she and others like her have been denied a proper male identity because of a genetic fluke. The one thing her brain is hardwired to have and desire is forever denied to her and she's ridiculed for wanting it.

Even if you disagree on terminology, we can at least maintain a level of standard in how to refer to transgender people, right?

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sat May 10, 2014 8:46 am

Pretty sure possessing a personality contrary to what is physiology wise, genetically speaking species wise "normal" is some form of disassociative/ personality disorder

Its mental illness plain and simple , that psychologists being more a reactionary unscientific and at times political medical field catered to public pressure and politics doesn't change that

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat May 10, 2014 1:43 pm

Mith wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, what is not up to a vote? We're talking about what constitutes a proper definition of a woman.
Alright, you seem to be entirely focused on physical organs--I can accept that no, Athene doesn't have all the same organs. I am speaking strictly from her personality; she has a female personality and therefore desires to be female. It's a logical desire and I think referring to a transgender as anything else can be very hurtful.
On the other hand, I think referring to a male->female transgender as a woman (as in, real woman but thus far we never had to use the "normal" epithet) is equally and fundamentally hurtful to humanity and our understanding of what defines our drive for survival, which is solely based on our will, capacity and desire to have heterosexual relations. As a sexual species, the functional heterosexuality is the norm and should always be, and no inflexion of this important rule should ever be allowed.
I will simply not tolerate what makes our most essential and precious understanding of the definition of men and women to be debased simply in order to cater to the whims of some vocal handicapped people with a mental disorder of some kind.
If these people were acting in a responsible way, they would simply not make such absurd claims to begin with, but instead, recognize their problem as perhaps impossible to solve. That would be honest and worth my kind support.
Again, it seems a community in India has found a third way. Why not listen to them? There's probably noting worse than being a transsexual in the US right now.
This is just one study, funded by whoever's money, which by the way might confirm what I said about the importance of sexual gonads and hormones.
There isn't anything there that suggests something out of place. If I recall my biology, male fetuses start out as female, then convert. It's not illogical to reason that some don't finish making the bridge from male to female. I will admit that there's a great deal we still don't understand.
Well clearly we didn't attend the same biology courses. Probably because it's nothing more than a (silly?) theory that would require totally artificial means of growth (in vitro) in order to be proven.
A girl is nothing more than an immature woman. But if we started as "women" (or say girls anyway), we'd already have all female sexual organs and in fact already have the XX sexual gene. It would mean we'd grow as women, be ready to burst out of the womb as women, and then somehow the entire process would be canned for a complete reversal then overhaul and we, future males, would be totally recommissioned into males. At best, the fetus starts as somewhat neutral, but you cannot cheat the DNA (aside from accidents, that is). Science refers to male or female embryos for a good reason.
It really does sound as nonsense to claim you start as woman/girl since being a woman/girl is about the WHOLE maturation process, from blastocyst to body growth (including gonads and brain growth) and birth.
But that is, I guess, another clever spin doctoring from the lobbying LGBT group, right?
I'm starting to get used to their clever fancy catchphrases people parrot without thinking twice about what they truly mean.
I also grow extremely tired of that bullshit.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that whatever the process is, we do know what defines the norm in the end, and that is what matters.
At that pace, I can say that soon enough, the insidious political correctness will even outstrip you of the possibility of referring to a transwoman as a non real woman, despite the fact that it's 100% true.
In other words, this kind of pressure that comes from god knows where will force us to swallow lies. That is purely and, in fact, literally insane.
But in the end, they only speak of "suggestions" that some variation in a gene might contribute to an inferior effect of hormones on the growing body.
I'm afraid this in no way changes anything to what makes a proper female.
Shouldn't we define what makes a female on the basis of an ideal and still mainstream template instead of relying on the odd dysfunctional one?
No one is contesting that the physical body is male, but the issue is that Athene developed a female personality. It simply did not cross the rest of the bridge from female to male.
I perfectly understand the issue and you perfectly miss my point. :D
And your argument works from a true scottsman fallacy. If someone took a magical ray and pointed it at you, turning you into a female, would it be wrong for you to identify as male, regardless of the actual hardware you've been installed in?
What's that now? Appeal to D&D, Swords and Sorcery? :)
OK, if a wizard would turn me into a chick (brain, sexual organs, body, DNA), I would for all intents and purposes be a female.
Essentially, you're hypothesizing what would happen if I were to be mutated by magic. Useless... much?
This isn't about physical configuration; that's already been addressed and admitted to.
Admitted by whom? It totally is about the body as well. You cannot simply dissociate the body from the brain.
It is not a theoretical exercise in mindless abstraction.
What we are focusing on is persona.
No, what you are solely focusing on. And that's the problem, because your scope of debate is already arbitrarily skewed. You have already omitted the body from the premises and work from the claim that what makes a woman is uniquely about the brain and nothing else. I already knew about the persona thing, but it's not just about that.
Unlike the rest of us males, she didn't reach the proper stage of male mental development. Technically, you first existed as a chick. You then developed into a male.
How we start is most irrelevant when we must define things. We could start as pancakes or carrots I wouldn't really care.
And what would you make of females feeling like they're men by the way?
Would they somehow be more "abnormal" than MtF transpeople because, hey, we all started as women so why do they complain?? o_O
That's really the implication of your argument, down there.
So in the end, we don't invalidate the rather essential idea that fertile man + fertile woman + intercourse = kiddo.
Not fertile man + sterile whatever + sodomy = smelly dick.
That's rather a crude way to refer to the situation, when you consider she and others like her have been denied a proper male identity because of a genetic fluke. The one thing her brain is hardwired to have and desire is forever denied to her and she's ridiculed for wanting it.

Even if you disagree on terminology, we can at least maintain a level of standard in how to refer to transgender people, right?
Yes, you're totally right, it's very crude, but the point is made very clearly in a few words.
I can maintain of level of standard regarding transgender people as long as they don't make stupid claims that would pull humanity down to the level of handicapped people claiming to be totally normal and rewrite the rules of normality and sanity for the sake of whatever form of "justice" and "fairness" they only have in their mind.
Look, I'm not in a mood to have fun at the expense of transpeople. What they suffer from is quite terrible, and probably most unfair. But facts are facts.
Now, they still remain totally capable of working in society and have very good jobs, although on the other hand, we cannot ignore how our sexual mind heavily weighs on human relations even in professional domains.
As long as we never forget that...



Oh by the way, Hitler.
That, for the Godwin point, y'know.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat May 10, 2014 1:46 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:Pretty sure possessing a personality contrary to what is physiology wise, genetically speaking species wise "normal" is some form of disassociative/ personality disorder

Its mental illness plain and simple , that psychologists being more a reactionary unscientific and at times political medical field catered to public pressure and politics doesn't change that
Absolutely correct.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat May 10, 2014 3:33 pm

....And this has completely derailed the thread.

If you two want to continue to discuss this issue, you can start a new thread, or you can return to discussing SpaceBattles politics proper.
-Mike

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat May 10, 2014 4:52 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:....And this has completely derailed the thread.

If you two want to continue to discuss this issue, you can start a new thread, or you can return to discussing SpaceBattles politics proper.
-Mike
Yep right. I don't think I have anything to add anyway.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by 2046 » Sat May 10, 2014 5:56 pm

Transgenderwhatzits is a red herring.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mith » Sun May 11, 2014 3:12 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:....And this has completely derailed the thread.

If you two want to continue to discuss this issue, you can start a new thread, or you can return to discussing SpaceBattles politics proper.
-Mike
Yes, I agree.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this right now. Though I would like people to at least seriously reconsider what they say. And Oraghan, I still think that wording was inappropriate.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by User1390 » Mon May 12, 2014 5:46 pm

i did not want to start a discussion about transexuals. if someone wants to be a girl that is up to them. if they want to be called a girls name that is up to them it isnt hurting anyone and they are happy. i think alot of you are behavingpoorly about someone elses business that has nothing to do with waht we do on forums.

to get ontopic there are new sb mods. connor mcleod and unhabby ahnchovy are the new mods. connor is known to be involved in vs debating and is from sdn. anchovy is not.


has anyone tried out the debating sboards at suffiecent velocity?
i cant get a registration confirmation so i cant post yet. is anyone planning to go over there as well. we could be good for forum and provide alternative arguments before the maxiyields people damage it.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon May 12, 2014 11:43 pm

rebelzarek wrote:to get ontopic there are new sb mods. connor mcleod and unhabby ahnchovy are the new mods. connor is known to be involved in vs debating and is from sdn. anchovy is not.
Pure gold. It keeps getting better everytime there's an update about the new board of moderators. :)
Do they intend on recruiting the worst of the rot or something?
Can you imagine debating 40K over there now?
has anyone tried out the debating sboards at suffiecent velocity?
i cant get a registration confirmation so i cant post yet. is anyone planning to go over there as well. we could be good for forum and provide alternative arguments before the maxiyields people damage it.
This is presuming that the wankatongasm bois weren't part of the splintering group. Like, all the people who crawled to the other shore were all sane and educated about the numbers and methods.
Let's remember that SV is a spin off of Spacebattles, not an invasion from (totally outlandish) outer space.

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Re: spacebattles has splintered

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu May 15, 2014 12:18 am

Athene joined the site

Inb4 her critics receive more death threats

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