Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space mar

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Lucky
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Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space mar

Post by Lucky » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:20 am

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... ne.288515/

Most of it is standard Space Marine wank about how Space Marines are better armoured then Imperial Guard tanks.

It's amusing when Mith points out that it is physically impossible for even Space Marines to walk faster then a certain speed no matter what the author wrote, and that the author clearly screwed up.

Then you come to this post:
[url]http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/equip-a-10-man-modern-infantry-force-to-beat-a-40k-space-marine.288515/page-10[/url] Acatalepsy Post: 241 wrote:
Let's see.

One Bog Standard Tactical Marine, with Boltgun:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
One IG Veteran Squad (equivalent), with no special options, no special weaponry, and no Veteran sergeant. Also, all of their lasguns have been replaced by autoguns (basically, a high powered assault rifle).
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
3 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Starting Range: 18", marine to move:

Okay, Marine opens fire. He hits on a 3+, wounds on a 3+, and ignores any armor that they have (assuming they have no cover). On average, he kills 4/9 of a Veteran a turn.

Veteran's Turn. Assuming that they took a casualty in the first round, that's 9 guys. They hit on a 3+, wound on a 5+, and have to deal with an armor save of 3+. They kill, on average, 2/3 of a Marine a Turn.

...okay, that's clearly not going to go well for the Marine. What if he gets in close by shenanigans?

They can probably only surround him with six or so guys. He hits first at initiative 4, hitting on a 3+, wounds on a 3+, and dealing with an armor save of +5. He kills on average of 3/10 of a Veteran a turn.

The five surviving guys (again, assuming he killed one) hit back at Initiative 3, hitting on a +5, wounding on a +5, and dealing with an armor save of +3. They cause an average of 0.185 marine wounds per turn.

Given the results, close combat is clearly the superior strategy for the marine; he'll probably get first blood, and might cause them to fall back (which would give him a chance to destroy them as a combat unit). The trick is getting through their fire without getting destroyed: even with only autoguns, ten guys shooting at you is still ten guys shooting at you, and this will likely end poorly for the Space Marine if he lets it become a firefight - especially if his opponents make use of cover (likely). Even so, getting that close means letting them get at least some shots in, which, again, isn't going to go terribly well for him.

For better results, the ten dudes should make use of sniper rifles, traps such as claymores, and grenade launchers. Rocket launchers are also an option, but are probably less practical than just shooting at him with a 40mm HE grenade.
Of course they jump all over Acatalepsy for using the game stats as a guide when he looks at the fluff, and then claim the stats don't represent the real capabilities of the armies.

Personally I think you should take game stats into account when analyzing a game setting. All too often the people writing the derivative works(novels, comics, movies), the Extended Universe, aren't very well versed in the settings core material and don't care.

+++++

I often find it troubling that it seems like so called Warries, Hammies, Haloites, etc jump straight to obscure parts of a setting's extended universe rather then use the core material as a representation of the setting.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:50 am

Well, Hammies would say game mechanics shouldn't be taken seriously. They are abstractions conceived to make the game interesting. That's understandable. Games take liberties.

Fluff does make space marines some kind of superhumans, no doubt about that. All the modifications brought to the bodies that only leave a few alive, plus the mechanized armoured suit, they're ought to really put them well above any normal skinbag.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Lucky » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:32 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Well, Hammies would say game mechanics shouldn't be taken seriously. They are abstractions conceived to make the game interesting. That's understandable. Games take liberties.
Really, the Warhammer 40,000 EU has authors who don't even know what a Tau Devilfish, Hammerhead, or Sky Ray are. (CENSOR) even the fluff in the codexes can't be taken literally at times, or you get plasma pistols and plasma cannnons killing everything on the planet if you pull the trigger.

++++++

The stats aren't random when taken with the fluff that comes with them.

Codex: Tau Empire(4th Edition) ISBN: 1-84154-712-3 wrote:
Page: 25
Airbursting fragmentation projector:
This weapon scatters fragmentation bomblets over a wide area, at a height calculated by a simple AI within each warhead to cause optimum damage. The weapon suffers no penalties, and may not benefit from markerlight hits.
Range : G18"
Strength: 4
AP : 5
Type : Assault 1, Large Blast Marker, No Cover save

Page: 26
Burst Cannon:
The burst cannon finds use across the Tau military, primarily mounted on battlesuits and vehicles.Utilising the plasma induction technology found in the pulse rifle and other systems, the burst cannon is a multi-barrel weapon able to sustain high rates of fire.
Range : 18"
Strength: 5
AP : 5
Type : Assault 3

Cyclic ion blaster:
Developed to combat multiple, lightly armoured enemies, this weapon generates a rapid stream of ion radiation, unleashing it through its four barrels. Though the rate of fire is stable, the ionaisation effect is variable. Any rolls to wound of a 6 count as AP1
Range : 18"
Strength: 3
AP : 4
Type : Assault 5

Flamer:
Used when fighting massed, lightly armoured opponents, the flamer is a lethal weapon when use by Crisis teams fighting in amongst densely packed terrain.
Range : Template"
Strength: 4
AP : 5
Type : Assault 1

Fusion blaster:
Fusion blasters are carried by Crisis suit equipped warriors as anti-tank weapons, and many pilots have become adept at stalking enemy armour, using their mobility to outflank the enemny and engage his weaker, rear armour.
Range : 12"
Strength: 8
AP : 1
Type : Melta, Assault 1

Missile pod:
A simple shoulder or arm mounted multiple missile delivery system, the missile pod is used by battlesuit-equipped teams for engaging enemy light vehicles at medium range.
Range : 36"
Strength: 7
AP : 4
Type : Assault 2

Page: 27
Plasma rifle:
Plasma technology is used by many races, despite its unstable nature. Tau favor a form of the technology that forgoes a degree of stoping power for increased safety of the operator.
Range : 24"
Strength: 6
AP : 2
Type : Rapid Fire

Railgun:
The Tau battlesuit railgun uses linear accelerator technology to project a solid projectile at hypervelocity. It is capable of punching through the thickest armour and of taking down the largest enemies.
Range : 72"
Strength: 10
AP : 1
Type : Heavy 1

Smart missile system:
The smart missile system fires self-guiding missiles with the intelligence of a drone, which first search for then hunt down the target, passing around any blocking terrain. The smart missile system can engage any target in range regardless of whether there is a line of sight to it or not. The target can count the benefits of cover they are in, or touching if it lies between them and the firer. Models firing a smart missile system do not need to make a Target Priority test. In addition, smart missiles are not affected by the Night Fighting scenario special rules.
Range : 24"
Strength: 5
AP : 5
Type : Heavy 4

Page: 28
Kroot gun:
A large calibre version of the Kroot rifle, the Kroot gun is so heavy it must be mounted upon the back of the lumbing Krootox and operated by a warrior dedicated to its use. The weapon finds its primary use in engaging enemy light vehicles.
Range : 48"
Strength: 7
AP : 4
Type : Rapid Fire

Page: 29
Kroot rifle: A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round.The new ammunition gives the Kroot rifle far greater stopping power and penetration. The Kroot rifle is fitted with blades near the muzzle and stock, which are a throwback to early traditional Kroot fighting staves.The incredable hand speed that a Kroot possesses makes these blades effective assault weapons, and Kroot with Kroot rifles count as having two single-handed weapons in close cambat.
Range : 24"
Strength: 4
AP : 6
Type : Rapid Fire

Pulse carbine:
The pulse carbine sacrifices rangfe for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher. Any unit suffering at least one wound from pulse carbine must test for pinning.
Range : 18"
Strength: 5
AP : 5
Type : Assault 1, Pinning

Pulse pistol:
The pulse pistol is a smaller version of the pulse rifle, being issued to Tau personel as a hold-out weapon for use in desperate situations.
Range : 12"
Strength: 5
AP : 5
Type : Pistol

Pulse rifle:
The pulse rifle uses an induction field to propel a particle, which reacts by breaking down to create a plasma pulse as it leaves the barrel.
Range : 30"
Strength: 5
AP : 5
Type : Rapid Fire

Rail rifle:
The rail rifle is an implementation of the technology utilised in the railgun that is mounted on vehicles and Broadside battlesuits. It has only recently been authorized for issue to front-line units, having completed an extensive field-testing phase.
Range : 36"
Strength: 6
AP : 3
Type : Heavy 1, Pinning

Vespid neutron blaster:
The weapon carried by the Stingwings is a hybrid of Vespid and Tau technology. The crystal mounted upon each blaster emits a powerful neutron blast that is able to bypass all but the most efficient ray shielded armour.
Range : 12"
Strength: 5
AP : 3
Type : Assault 1

Page: 30
Hammerhead railgun:
The railgun is a linear accelerator which functions using standing wave acceleration along a number of cylindrical superconductive electrodes that surround the barrel. It can fire either a solid projectile or a sophisticated bundle of submunitions. The submunitions option is only available to the vehicle mounted railgun.
Railgun (solid shot)
Range : 72"
Strength: 10
AP : 1
Type : Heavy 1

Railgun (submunition)
Range : 72"
Strength: 6
AP : 4
Type : Heavy 1, Large Blast

Page: 30-31
Seeker missiles:
Seeker missile arrays are provided to allow Tau infantry to immediately obtain fire support, for Fire caste doctrine does not allow organic integrated heavy weapons in Fire Warrior teams. Any model equipped with markerlight may request a seeker missile salvo as detailed in the markerlight rules. Up to two seeker missiles may be fitted to a single vehicle, and one or both launched in a single turn, each using different markerlight hits. Each is a single shot weapon. The missiles do not need a line of sight from the vehicle they are mounted to the vehicle. The missile is assumed to move in a straight line between the model carrying the missile and the target itself for the purposes of deciding whether the shot strikes the front, side or rear. The missiles have no maximum range. Ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the seeker missile has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds only to markerlight users. The missiles may always be fired, each at different targets if relevant, regardless of the distance the vehicle has moved or whether it has fired any other weapons. They may also be fired if the vehicle has suffered a Crew Stunned vehicle damage result.
Range : unlimited"
Strength: 8
AP : 3
Type : Heavy 1
Imperial Guard (5th Edition) ISBN:978-1841549231 wrote:

Page: 44
Hunting Lance
Rough Riders are armed with a long hunting lance tipped with a shaped explosive charge that can tear through even the toughest armour.

Rough Riders use their hunting lances the first time they charge into close combat, after which they cannot be used again. When they charge into close combat, a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with power weapons that strike at Strength and Initiative 5. Models using a hunting lance cannot gain an extra attack from having an additional close combat weapon.

Page: 42
Ripper Gun:
The ripper gun is an enormous, drum-fed automatic combat shotgun developed for the exclusive use of Ogryn units At short range the hail of low velocity shot produced by ripper guns is so dense that it is all but impossible for the Ogryns to miss.
Range : 12"
Strength: 5
AP : -
Type : assault 3

Page: 46
Hot-shot Lasgun:
The hot-shot lasgun uses a more powerful, external energy cell. This allows the hellgun to project a more powerful, and more penetrating, shot.
Range : 18"
Strength: 3
AP : 3
Type : Rapid Fire

Page: 48
Battle Cannon:
The battle cannon is the most common armament of the Leman Russ. The explosive rounds of a battle cannon decimate enemy infantry and tanks with equal contempt.
Range : 72"
Strength: 8
AP : 3
Type : Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Page: 49
Exterminator Autocannon:
Utilised on the Leman Russ, the twin barrels of an exterminator autocannon fire synchronized bursts of heavy-calibre, high velocity shells.
Range : 48"
Strength: 7
AP : 4
Type : Heavy 4, Twin-linked

Vanquisher Battle Cannon:
The Vanquisher mounts a modified cannon that fires special anti-armour shells.
Range : 72"
Strength: 8
AP : 2
Type : Heavy 1*
*Shots from a Vanquisher battle cannon roll an additional D6 when rolling for armour penetration.

Eradicator Nova Cannon:
Eradicator nova cannons fire shells with unstable sub-atomic charge at their core.
Range : 36"
Strength: 6
AP : 4
Type : Heavy 1, Large Blast*
*Cover saves may not be taken against wounds caused by an Eradicator nova cannon.

Demolisher Siege Cannon:
Short ranged but utterly lethal, no armour is proof against the might of a Demolisher siege cannon.
Range : 24"
Strength: 10
AP : 2
Type : Heavy 1, Large Blast

Punisher Gatling Cannon:
A recent addition to the Imperial Guard armoury, the Punisher gatling cannon unleashes a torrent of anti-infantry firepower.
Range : 24"
Strength: 5
AP : -
Type : Heavy 20

Executioner Plasma Cannon:
The Executioner plasma cannon fires pulsed plasma bursts that can incinerate even the most heavily armoured infantry.
Range : 36"
Strength: 7
AP : 2
Type : Heavy 3, Blast

Page: 68
Autocannon:
Autocannons fire large calibre, high velocity shells at a prodigious rate. They are the heavy weapon of choice for commanders facing large infantry formations and lightly armoured vehicles.
Range : 48"
Strength: 7
AP : 4
Type : Heavy 2

Boltgun:
The boltgun, or 'bolter', is a rare and devastating weapon amongst the ranks of the Imperial Guard. It fires self-propelled missiles or 'bolts' that explode upon penetrating its target, blowing it apart from the inside.
Range : 24"
Strength: 4
AP : 5
Type : rapid fire

Bolt Pistol:
Bolt pistols are smaller versions of bolters.Favored amongst the ranks of officers and Commissars, they are a potent symbol of status as well as a lethal side arm.
Range : 12"
Strength: 4
AP : 5
Type : Pistol

Demolition Charge:
Small, compact, but extremely destructive, demolition charges are used to destroy fortifications and enemy armour emplacements.
Range : 6"
Strength: 8
AP : 2
Type : Assault 1, Large Blast, One shot only

Flamer:
Flamers spew out gouts of volatile promethium that instantly ignites and immolates those caught in the superheated conflagration
Range : Template"
Strength: 4
AP : 5
Type : Assault 1

Grenade Launcher
Grenade launchers are versatile, man portable weapons capable of firing a range of deadly rounds.

Each time the grenade launcher fires, the controlling player can decide which round is being used.
Frag Grenade
Range : 24"
Strength: 3
AP : 6
Type : Assault 1, Blast

Krak Grenade
Range : 24"
Strength: 6
AP : 4
Type : Assault 1

Heavy Bolter:
An enormous version of the bolter, the heavy bolter fires fist-sized bolts at the enemy with a staggering rate of fire.
Range : 36"
Strength: 5
AP : 4
Type : Heavy 3

Heavy Flamer:
The heavy flamer is the weapon of choice for sweeping fortifications and purging the ranks of the enemy.
Range : Template"
Strength: 5
AP : 4
Type : Assault 1

Hot-shot Laspistol:
The hot-shot laspistol utilizes the same high-energy technology as the hot-shot lasgun.
Range : 6"
Strength: 3
AP : 3
Type : pistol

Page: 69
Lascannon:
The massive power cells required to fire a mighty lascannon is an indication of the destructive power of the weapon. The focused energy blast unleashed by this anti-tank weapon can cut through even the thickest armour.
Range : 48"
Strength: 9
AP : 2
Type : Heavy 1

Lasgun:
The ubiquitous lasgun is easy to replicate and is therefore the most common weapon in the entire Iperium. There are many subtle variations to the humble lasgun, but all are reliable and simple to maintain. Many experienced fighters prefer these trustworthy weapons to more destructive weapons for these reasons.
Range : 24"
Strength: 3
AP : -
Type : Rapid Fire

Laspistol:
Typically reserved for officers, the unassuming laspistol is based upon the same technology as the lasgun. The standard power packs for these weapons can be recharged from a standard power source or by exposing the cell to light or heat.
Range : 12"
Strength: 3
AP : -
Type : Pistol

Meltagun:
Meltaguns are short-ranged but lethal anti-armour weapons that fire a superheated stream of pure destruction. Even the thickest armour vaporizes under the sub-atomic blast.
Range : 12"
Strength: 8
AP : 1
Type : Assault 1, Melta

Missile Launcher:
The missile launcher is a favored weapon amongst heavy weapons teams due to the tactical flexibility afforded by a range of warheads.

Each time the missile launcher fires, the controlling player can decide which round is being used.
Frag Missile
Range : 48"
Strength: 4
AP : 6
Type : Heavy 1, Blast

Krak Missile
Range : 48"
Strength: 8
AP : 3
Type : Heavy 1

Morttars:
Mortars are anti-personel weapons, capable of breaking up and pinning down enemy infantry formations.
Range : 48"
Strength: 4
AP : 6
Type : Heavy 1, Blast, Barrage

Multi-melta:
A larger, more destructive version of the meltagun, perfect for reducing armoured tanks and reinforced bunkers to molten slag.
Range : 24"
Strength: 8
AP : 1
Type : Heavy 1, Melta

Plasma Cannon: Plasma technology is rare and highly destructive, for both the enemy and the wielder. 'Bolts' of pure plasma explode upon impact with the fury of a supernova, scything through steel, flesh and bone as if it were nothing.
Range : 36"
Strength: 7
AP : 2
Type : Heavy 1, Blast, Gets Hot!

Plasma Gun:
It is a rare 'honour' to serve as a squad's plasma gunner. Whilst destructive, plasma guns are prone to overheat and few Guardsmen survive long enough to truly master these revered weapons.
Range : 24"
Strength: 7
AP : 2
Type : Rapid Fire, Gets Hot!

Plasma Pistol:
Perhaps the most destructive sidearm in common use in the Imperium, a soldier with a plasma pistol wields the power of a small sun in his hands.
Range : 12"
Strength: 7
AP : 2
Type : Pistol, Gets Hot!

Shotgun:
Shotguns are sturdy and versatile weapons wielded by warriors across the Imperium.
Range : 12"
Strength: 3
AP : -
Type : Assault 2

Sniper Rifle:
There are many different sniper rifles utilised by the Imperial Guard's marksmen. Some regiments prefer to use needle sniper rifles that fire small darts made from deadly neuro-toxins. Others may use the 'long-las', a variant of the humble lasgun with a reinforced barrel and overcharged power cells.
Range : 36"
Strength: X
AP : 6
Type : Heavy 1, Sniper

Page: 70
Heavy Stubber:
Despite its lack of penetrative power the heavy stubber is still a favorite amongst some tank crews thanks to its long range and punishing rate of fire.
Range : 36"
Strength: 4
AP : 6
Type : Heavy 3

Multi-laser:
The enhanced phased capacitors and reinforced barrels of the multi-laser mean that a more destructive power level can be combined with a high rate of fire, making this weapon effective against lightly armoured targets and onrushing hordes alike.
Range : 36"
Strength: 6
AP : 6
Type : Heavy 3

Page: 71
Storm Bolter:
A storm bolter is a pair of linked bolters that can cut down ranks of enemies in an explosive hail of bolts.
Range : 24"
Strength: 4
AP : 5
Type : Assault 2
The highest and lowest stats for the most well armoured vehicles
Codex: Tau Empire(4th Edition) ISBN: 1-84154-712-3 wrote:
Page: 36
Devilfish Troop Carrier:
The devilfish troop carrier is the workhorse of the Tau ground forces and is able to carry twelve warriors. Armed with a fearsome burst cannon, it can rapidly transport its passengers to their destination then act as mobile firesupport once they disembark. The Devilfish also carries a pair of Gun Drones to provide even more firepower.
Points: 80
BS : 3
F : 12
S : 11
R : 10

Page: 41
Hammerhead Gunship:
The Hammerhead gunship is the main battle tank of the Tau army. Most of the internal space within the tank is taken up by capacitors for its weapon systems, and thus it cannot carry troops. During the Damocles Crusade, many Imperial tank crews learned the hard way how deadly its main weapons can be
Points: 90
BS : 3(4)
F : 13
S : 12
R : 10

Sky Ray Missile Defense Gunship:
The Sky Ray is a variant of the more common Hammerhead gunship, and provides a dedicated missile platform that is used by Fire caste to provide point attack fire support for Fire Warrior teams. When guided by the markerlights of Pathfinder teams, the Sky Ray makes an exceptional perimeter and air defense missile system.
Points: 125
BS : 3
F : 13
S : 12
R : 10
Imperial Guard (5th Edition) ISBN:978-1841549231 wrote:
Page:48
The Leman Russ is the core battle tank of the Imperial Guard and the mainstay of its armoured fighting force. It forms the spearhead of any Imperial Guard armoured attack. Armed with mighty battle cannons and heavy weapons, these lumbering brutes grind forward unleashing an indefatigable onslaught of firepower. Those enemies that do not fall to the cannonade are crushed beneath their heavy treads.

Leman Russ Battle Tank
BS : 3
F : 14
S : 13
R : 10
TYPE: Tank

Leman Russ Executioner
BS : 3
F : 14
S : 13
R : 11
TYPE: Tank
It looks like the stats stay consistent with the fluff to compare things to me. Anti-armour weapons all seem to have similar stats as do anti-personel.

The argument of the stats being balanced for game play doesn't fly do to the fluff stating that in Warhammer 40,000 the Tau, Imperium, Eldar, and Orks are all roughly on par with one another from a technological point of veiw.

+++++

I find that for the most part stats in games are useful for comparing things with similar purposes within the game. Small arms and side arms should be comparable at a glance with the stats or there is something wrong with the stats.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Fluff does make space marines some kind of superhumans, no doubt about that. All the modifications brought to the bodies that only leave a few alive, plus the mechanized armoured suit, they're ought to really put them well above any normal skinbag.
I'm not sure the armour adds as much as you might think.
Imperial Guard (5th Edition) ISBN:978-1841549231 wrote:
Page: 71
Carapace Armour:
Carapace armour is made up large rigid plates of armaplas or ceramite moulded to fit the bearer.

A model with carapace armour has an armour save of 4+

Flak Armour:
Cheap and easy to produce, flak armour comprises several layers of ablative thermoplast materials and impact absorbent carbifibres.

A model with flak armour has an armour save of 5+

Power Armour:
Made from think ceramite plates and electronically motivated fibre bundles, power armour is amongst the best protective armour available to the servants of the Imperium.

A model with power armour has an armour save of 3+

Refractor Field:
This is an all enclosing energy field that partially refracts energy around the bearer, protecting him from otherwise fatal damage.

A refractor field grants the bearer a 5+ invulnerable save
I don't buy the idea that Warhammer 40,000 Space Marines can ignore weapons that are expected to take down armoured vehicles.

It seems like bolters are commonly portrayed as being able to kill Space Marines, and yet are often portrayed as basically being NEOPUP PAW-20.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:35 pm

Lucky wrote: I don't buy the idea that Warhammer 40,000 Space Marines can ignore weapons that are expected to take down armoured vehicles.
Me neither. But what armour are we talking about?
It seems like bolters are commonly portrayed as being able to kill Space Marines, and yet are often portrayed as basically being NEOPUP PAW-20.
Bolters are powerful weapons but they're ought to go black very fast.
Projectiles are armour piercing, explosive, self propelled aside from their intiial muzzle velocity, iirc. And they're already high caliber weapons. A notch above the NEOPUP, which projectiles rely on initial velocity alone as far as I've read.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Lucky » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:08 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Me neither. But what armour are we talking about?
Space Marine armour is made out of ceramite plate and armaplas just like Imperial Guard carapace armour but a little thicker is it not? I'd assume anything that can get through a Stryker's armor would work just as well on a Space Marine.


Mr. Oragahn wrote: Bolters are powerful weapons but they're ought to go black very fast.
Projectiles are armour piercing, explosive, self propelled aside from their intiial muzzle velocity, iirc. And they're already high caliber weapons. A notch above the NEOPUP, which projectiles rely on initial velocity alone as far as I've read.
Heavy Bolters fire bolts the size of a man's fist, and a mans fist is about the size of a 40mm grenade

Dawn of Wars II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmK9HrlskXU

Clip from some Ultra Marines movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOoqZzxH50Y

All the weapons from Firewarrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBN5AwkfRnc

Bolter as shown in Firewarrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4BD8uiTUGw

PAW-20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu87AxzBf3Y

Hellhound 40mm grenades
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVfhTqL95jY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEI_HELLHOUND

Mercury 40mm grenades
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAHp4YaEyZk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEI_Mercury

Frag-12 round
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6wJGuUouIw

Just for giggles
Lasguns being used by I.G. to kill orks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPxKQkfkluc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2f7G057Jbo

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:59 pm

Lucky wrote: Hellhound 40mm grenades
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVfhTqL95jY
Sexually motivating.

Still, as I said, by being self propelled, the bolter rounds still strike with more force than projectiles solely relying on their initial muzzle velocity. The perforation mixed to that constant thrust allows them to enhance the chance of delivering the damage inside the target.
All those grenade are powerful but won't get beyond the initial layer of protection.
However, what a bolter round gains in range, it loses in charge. Namely, the propellant takes the room that more explosive would take in the case of an explosive round fired from a grenade launcher (or, to a ligher caliber, from a slug fired by a shotgun).
And, above all, a projectile that would triger its penetration charge on impact by focusing a stream of hot metal into the target would actually do much more damage than what you'd obtain from the momentum accumulated over a distance by the constant push of the bolter round: the explosive piercing system simply has much more power to it, while the self propelled projectile uses most of its thrust to counter air drag, so in the end the real gain in momentum isn't as impressive as it would be in vacuum.

Besides, considering that Space Marines tend to engage targets at rather close ranges, the use of self propelled projectiles strikes me as odd.
In a way, it would be good if it could the projectiles would come with self-guidance systems. But that would require a level of refinement and technological might in advanced weapon systems simply not encountered within the IoM.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Lucky » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:44 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Sexually motivating.
You're creeping me out.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Still, as I said, by being self propelled, the bolter rounds still strike with more force than projectiles solely relying on their initial muzzle velocity. The perforation mixed to that constant thrust allows them to enhance the chance of delivering the damage inside the target.
All those grenade are powerful but won't get beyond the initial layer of protection.
However, what a bolter round gains in range, it loses in charge. Namely, the propellant takes the room that more explosive would take in the case of an explosive round fired from a grenade launcher (or, to a ligher caliber, from a slug fired by a shotgun).
I've never seen a bolt portrayed in a visual medium as being better then an equally large caliber slug thrower, and I'm not sure a bolter is used at a range that the fact it is has a rocket motor matters?

Hevy Stubers are about as good as Heavy Bolters in the game stats. The idea that bolters are better then stubbers designed for the same task in any real way doesn't really hold water as they are used for the same thing at the same ranges in the fluff.


Mr. Oragahn wrote: Still, as I said, by being self propelled, the bolter rounds still strike with more force than projectiles solely relying on their initial muzzle velocity. The perforation mixed to that constant thrust allows them to enhance the chance of delivering the damage inside the target.
All those grenade are powerful but won't get beyond the initial layer of protection.
However, what a bolter round gains in range, it loses in charge. Namely, the propellant takes the room that more explosive would take in the case of an explosive round fired from a grenade launcher (or, to a ligher caliber, from a slug fired by a shotgun).
I was pointing out the grenades do to the fact that i could find stats on how well they penetrated steel. Grenades are intended to be lobbed at the target while a bolt is a direct fire weapon.

I've already provided the fluff and stats for Heavy bolters and heavy stubbers, and the grenades used by the IG are better then a bolt.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Besides, considering that Space Marines tend to engage targets at rather close ranges, the use of self propelled projectiles strikes me as odd.
In a way, it would be good if it could the projectiles would come with self-guidance systems. But that would require a level of refinement and technological might in advanced weapon systems simply not encountered within the IoM.
One should wonder why the IOM has so many projectile weapons used by planet hopping forces, and given the relatively small number of bolts a SM can carry when compared to how many he will need it is insane.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:13 pm

I spent some time combing through Warhammer 40,000 sources on armor at one point in time. I came up with some very hard and very fast figures in the "Imperial Armour" books, and cited most of them in my debate with Thanatos.

Couple comments.

First, bolters. The standard bolter is officially 0.75 caliber, this is established quite officially in a number of sources. It's also quite a bit more advanced technologically than the standard Imperial Guard equipment. IIRC, we're talking diamond-tipped depleted-uranium something-or-other explosive rounds, however that's supposed to work.

Second, the efficiency of Warhammer 40k armor available to the IoM caps out at about five times as effective as conventional steel. (Even Space Marine Land Raiders only have armor equivalent to ~350mm of conventional steel - see Imperial Armour.) This puts things pretty much in perspective, because it means two things: Regular small arms won't work, but pretty much any modern anti-tank weapon will do the job provided you hit. Even somewhat less than modern anti-tank weapons - the original WWII bazooka might be pushing it, but is probably pretty close to being able to do the job.

The question really becomes what your best choice of anti-tank weapon is. You want to be able to shoot the Space Marine accurately, and preferably multiple times. This is hard sometimes, because you're trying to hit something smaller and more agile than a tank with something designed to hit tanks.

On the plus side, a Space Marine in power armor is something like 8-9' tall, close to half as wide, etc, so the targeting problem isn't as bad as it looks at first glance. Someone in the SB.com thread brought up guided missiles; I wouldn't actually be surprised if Space Marines in power armor are large and shiny enough for guided missiles to pick up on them.

Recoilless rifles, rocket launchers, maybe anti-materiel rifles. RPGs are probably not accurate enough, but there are better weapons. Mines / placed charges are a bright idea. Grenades can at least knock a Space Marine down. Adhesive charges applied directly to the Space Marine probably aren't a bright idea, but could work if your infantrymen are particularly bold. (The suicide-bomb vest is also a workable one tactically, though it's a pretty hard sell for modern professional soldiers.)

You probably want to give your squad a range of options. Give them a guided missile launcher, a couple recoilless rifles, maybe an anti-material rifle or two, explosives, maybe some sticky thermite grenades.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Lucky » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:20 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
First, bolters. The standard bolter is officially 0.75 caliber, this is established quite officially in a number of sources. It's also quite a bit more advanced technologically than the standard Imperial Guard equipment. IIRC, we're talking diamond-tipped depleted-uranium something-or-other explosive rounds, however that's supposed to work.
I'm well aware of the idiotic "depleted deuterium core" quote. The IOM doesn't (CENSOR) know what (CENSOR) hydrogen is.

+++++

http://www.convertunits.com/from/mm/to/caliber
0.75 caliber = 19.049999999979427 mm

You just confirmed that standard bolt guns fire what is basically a 20 mm round a kin to a PAW-20's 20 by 42 mm.

I already provided the quote showing that Heavy bolt guns fire a round that is about the size of a mans fist which will be roughly speaking, about the size of a 40 mm grenade.

+++++

According to the Inquisitor RPG
Only Kraken Penetrator Rounds seem to have the solid adamantium tip, and are only twice as good against armor then standard bolts.

Metal Storm Frag Shells, and Inferno shells seem to act like modern grenades for the most part. Inferno shells light the target on fire, and Metal Storm Frag Shells act exactly like the modern 40 mm grenades I already used as examples above.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Second, the efficiency of Warhammer 40k armor available to the IoM caps out at about five times as effective as conventional steel. (Even Space Marine Land Raiders only have armor equivalent to ~350mm of conventional steel - see Imperial Armour.) This puts things pretty much in perspective, because it means two things: Regular small arms won't work, but pretty much any modern anti-tank weapon will do the job provided you hit. Even somewhat less than modern anti-tank weapons - the original WWII bazooka might be pushing it, but is probably pretty close to being able to do the job.

The question really becomes what your best choice of anti-tank weapon is. You want to be able to shoot the Space Marine accurately, and preferably multiple times. This is hard sometimes, because you're trying to hit something smaller and more agile than a tank with something designed to hit tanks.

On the plus side, a Space Marine in power armor is something like 8-9' tall, close to half as wide, etc, so the targeting problem isn't as bad as it looks at first glance. Someone in the SB.com thread brought up guided missiles; I wouldn't actually be surprised if Space Marines in power armor are large and shiny enough for guided missiles to pick up on them.

Recoilless rifles, rocket launchers, maybe anti-materiel rifles. RPGs are probably not accurate enough, but there are better weapons. Mines / placed charges are a bright idea. Grenades can at least knock a Space Marine down. Adhesive charges applied directly to the Space Marine probably aren't a bright idea, but could work if your infantrymen are particularly bold. (The suicide-bomb vest is also a workable one tactically, though it's a pretty hard sell for modern professional soldiers.)
Modern anti-tank weapons like the Javelin are designed to hit something the size of a moving Space Marine from above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_tY7WhF7iY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin

Something like Dragon Fire 2 would be useful as it is unmanned. It would certainly help to confuse the SM do to his ten targets firing from possibly hundreds of locations at once.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5wE1HEtSLQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Fire_(mortar)

10 men armed with GU-8 Avenger would likely work given the IOM basically does this on one of the Leman Russ models.

I don't really see the point of using .50 caliber BMG. weapons. It seems like that if you are using those you are just telling the SM where to attack?

As a last resort you want something like a PAW-20, and a suicide vest, but by the time the SM gets that close his armor should be nearly useless.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:
You probably want to give your squad a range of options. Give them a guided missile launcher, a couple recoilless rifles, maybe an anti-material rifle or two, explosives, maybe some sticky thermite grenades.
Given Fire Warriors armed with nothing more then pulse rifles seemingly can give a SM a bad day...

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:59 am

Lucky wrote:I already provided the quote showing that Heavy bolt guns fire a round that is about the size of a mans fist which will be roughly speaking, about the size of a 40 mm grenade.
I would be hesitant to draw a loose comparison into a specific caliber. A 30mm round is, generically, over three times as powerful as a 20mm round.

The important thing about this caliber range is that when we're up in the >20mm range, we're talking about a range where ordinary rifle bullets fall flat, even for fairly powerful normal rifles.
Modern anti-tank weapons like the Javelin are designed to hit something the size of a moving Space Marine from above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_tY7WhF7iY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin

Something like Dragon Fire 2 would be useful as it is unmanned. It would certainly help to confuse the SM do to his ten targets firing from possibly hundreds of locations at once.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5wE1HEtSLQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Fire_(mortar)

10 men armed with GU-8 Avenger would likely work given the IOM basically does this on one of the Leman Russ models.

I don't really see the point of using .50 caliber BMG. weapons. It seems like that if you are using those you are just telling the SM where to attack?

As a last resort you want something like a PAW-20, and a suicide vest, but by the time the SM gets that close his armor should be nearly useless.
You should expect that the Space Marine is protected by the equivalent of up to around 100mm of conventional steel, w.r.t. conventional attacks. Thermal resistance seems slightly higher.

Resistance to pure high velocity kinetic penetrators isn't particularly good.

A PAW-20 is basically a low-velocity gun with high-explosive bullets. Not particularly great at armor penetration. A 20mm high explosive low-velocity round (we're talking 1/10th the KE of a high velocity 20mm round) is likely to knock a Space Marine on their butt, but is unlikely to actually punch through their armor.

It may very well have the capacity to damage the armor, so I'm not saying it's an entirely bad idea, but I don't see a good reason to count on it.

When you get to something like a Javelin missile, they're not actually designed for targets the size of Space Marines. Space Marines are only around 2.5x1 meter targets, and they are poseable. From a top-attack angle, you're hoping to hit an 0.5x1 meter ellipse. CEP on a Javelin is around 20-30 cm on a stationary target, depending on range (or is supposed to be, anyway) so we're not talking about a guaranteed kill by any means.

Odds are not bad, but we're talking about a really heavy weapon that you want to dedicate a two-man crew to operate. One Javelin anti-tank missile is over 20 kg. The average flight speed of the missile is actually relatively low (flight time to 2000m is 14 seconds), so the Space Marine, if aware he's being fired at, will have a couple seconds to react.

I mean, the warhead is powerful enough that even a near miss is likely to throw and stun the Space Marine, possibly damaging the armor, but it wouldn't be out of place in genre for a Space Marine to shoot a missile out of the air, or dive behind cover, and in the event that your missile fails, that's a lot of wasted resources.

A Carl Gustav 84mm recoilless rifle is under 9 kg, with each round of ammunition weighing in at around 3 kg, and will also kill a Space Marine. The old M1 Bazooka (capable of penetrating about 3" of armor) was only 6 kg.

An anti-materiel rifle loaded with discarding-sabot rounds gets you a lot more shots.

Javelin missiles would probably work, but in the event that their on-board software turns out not to like Space Marines as targets, or in the event that Space Marines turn out to be very good at shooting 300 mph targets flying directly at them, I'd rather not put too many eggs in the Javelin basket. 2 of them, maybe 3 would be my choice. You're dealing with unknowns.

If the probability of a kill is good with a Javelin missile (say, 70%, which would be my first guess), you're not going to improve the probability much with a 3rd (let alone 4th) missile, while if the probability of a kill is poor with a Javelin missile (say, 10%, which is where it might be if Javelin missiles don't like trying to get an IR reading off ceramite surfaces), you're stil not going to improve the odds much with a 3rd or 4th missile.

In either case, the 3rd or 4th missile cuts pretty heavily into the amount of stuff that your ten-man squad can carry.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Lucky » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:44 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote: I would be hesitant to draw a loose comparison into a specific caliber. A 30mm round is, generically, over three times as powerful as a 20mm round.

The important thing about this caliber range is that when we're up in the >20mm range, we're talking about a range where ordinary rifle bullets fall flat, even for fairly powerful normal rifles.
I see nothing wrong with comparing physical size when your intent is to compare physical size which was my intent.

Jedi Master Spock wrote: You should expect that the Space Marine is protected by the equivalent of up to around 100mm of conventional steel, w.r.t. conventional attacks.
Why?
Jedi Master Spock wrote: Thermal resistance seems slightly higher.
I've read Ceramite has good thermal properties compared to other armors used by the IOM, but that doesn't mean much unless you are sitting on something more reliable? Warhammer 40,000 is sadly prone to embellishment..
Jedi Master Spock wrote: Resistance to pure high velocity kinetic penetrators isn't particularly good.
Bolts aren't very impressive from what is shown in visual media. Can we be sure they are even supersonic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Ki ... gy_Missile
Jedi Master Spock wrote: A PAW-20 is basically a low-velocity gun with high-explosive bullets. Not particularly great at armor penetration. A 20mm high explosive low-velocity round (we're talking 1/10th the KE of a high velocity 20mm round) is likely to knock a Space Marine on their butt, but is unlikely to actually punch through their armor.

It may very well have the capacity to damage the armor, so I'm not saying it's an entirely bad idea, but I don't see a good reason to count on it.
You miss understand, I was talking about using a PAW-20 after you have hopefully cracked open the lobster's hard protective shell, and possibly run out of better option, I.E. a holdout weapon.

If you are using direct fire weapons then he can see you, and likely get to you before you can kill him.

The challenge limits you to ten men in an area with possibly little cover. You want to use things like Dragon Fire and NLOS as force multipliers, and to confuse the SM as to your actual locations.
Jedi Master Spock wrote: When you get to something like a Javelin missile, they're not actually designed for targets the size of Space Marines. Space Marines are only around 2.5x1 meter targets, and they are poseable. From a top-attack angle, you're hoping to hit an 0.5x1 meter ellipse. CEP on a Javelin is around 20-30 cm on a stationary target, depending on range (or is supposed to be, anyway) so we're not talking about a guaranteed kill by any means.

Odds are not bad, but we're talking about a really heavy weapon that you want to dedicate a two-man crew to operate. One Javelin anti-tank missile is over 20 kg. The average flight speed of the missile is actually relatively low (flight time to 2000m is 14 seconds), so the Space Marine, if aware he's being fired at, will have a couple seconds to react.
Javelin anti-tank missiles have been used to target humans
Jedi Master Spock wrote: I mean, the warhead is powerful enough that even a near miss is likely to throw and stun the Space Marine, possibly damaging the armor, but it wouldn't be out of place in genre for a Space Marine to shoot a missile out of the air, or dive behind cover, and in the event that your missile fails, that's a lot of wasted resources.

A Carl Gustav 84mm recoilless rifle is under 9 kg, with each round of ammunition weighing in at around 3 kg, and will also kill a Space Marine. The old M1 Bazooka (capable of penetrating about 3" of armor) was only 6 kg.

An anti-materiel rifle loaded with discarding-sabot rounds gets you a lot more shots.

Javelin missiles would probably work, but in the event that their on-board software turns out not to like Space Marines as targets, or in the event that Space Marines turn out to be very good at shooting 300 mph targets flying directly at them, I'd rather not put too many eggs in the Javelin basket. 2 of them, maybe 3 would be my choice. You're dealing with unknowns.

If the probability of a kill is good with a Javelin missile (say, 70%, which would be my first guess), you're not going to improve the probability much with a 3rd (let alone 4th) missile, while if the probability of a kill is poor with a Javelin missile (say, 10%, which is where it might be if Javelin missiles don't like trying to get an IR reading off ceramite surfaces), you're stil not going to improve the odds much with a 3rd or 4th missile.

In either case, the 3rd or 4th missile cuts pretty heavily into the amount of stuff that your ten-man squad can carry.
I'm suggesting NLOS and Dragon Fire as force multipliers, to confuse the SM and because they have some heavy fire power that can't easily be carried.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:52 pm

Lucky wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote: You should expect that the Space Marine is protected by the equivalent of up to around 100mm of conventional steel, w.r.t. conventional attacks.
Why?
Because it we have a lot of equivalences to conevntional steel armor listed, and they're actually quite consistent. Here are the most informative two of them:
Imperial Armour Vol II, re: Land Raider wrote:The front armor is 98mm thick, but provides protection equivalent to approximately 300mm of conventional steel.
That's three times the total protection, but that includes several weaker layers and the inner ceramite / adamantium layer:
Imperial Armour Vol II, re: Predator wrote:The inner layer provides the main protection. Its a bonded ceramite/adamantium alloy which provides protection equal to over five times the same width of conventional steel, while being lighter. The second layer is a reinforcing thermoplas with a sub-dermal energy dissipation fibre mesh, providing protection against extremes of heat and radioactivity. The outer layer is a non-magnetic acrylic identification sheath. All in all, this corresponds to over 200mm of conventional steel on the front of the vehicle.
We also have a good idea of what the mass, velocity, and size of AP rounds for battle cannons are, which lines up with these figures.

In a sense, this is very unimpressive in terms of design. The IoM is building tanks that are laid out like WWI tanks, and putting physical thicknesses of armor on them that are comparable to early WWII tanks.

On the other hand, the figures given really do line up with the idea that the toughness of ceramite/adamantium layers really is a bit over 5x as tough as conventional steel (while being significantly lighter!), and Space Marine armor is fairly bulky. I haven't seen anything specific, as I have for Land Raiders, and ~100mm is an upper limit, but do note that if you're impacting at anything other than a perfectly orthogonal angle, the protection offered by an armor plate increases.

That's why I'm not terribly certain of the original M1 bazooka. But pretty much anything better at piercing armor than the old M1 bazooka should do the trick.
I've read Ceramite has good thermal properties compared to other armors used by the IOM, but that doesn't mean much unless you are sitting on something more reliable? Warhammer 40,000 is sadly prone to embellishment..
In my debate with Thanatos, I set a hard upper limit on lascannon yield of 2 GJ, saying that there was absolutely no evidence for anything higher than that. That said, there's a lot of evidence that is perfectly reasonably interpreted as being in the neighborhood of a couple hundred megajoules.

A battle cannon, on the other hand, with an armor piercing sabot round, is much more effective against WH40K tank armor, in spite of the fact that it's only delivering a couple megajoules of energy on a similar-sized point.
Bolts aren't very impressive from what is shown in visual media. Can we be sure they are even supersonic?
Visual media usually show unrealistic velocity for bullets / bolts / etc. It's a serious problem (and one reason why the documentarian approach to analyzing fictional films/TV shows is seriously flawed, we could derive silly velocities for RL bullets that way) but if we want to retain our common sense, we really shouldn't pay very much attention to the visual velocity of bullets in cinematics.
Javelin anti-tank missiles have been used to target humans
Does the target system actually have the ability to lock onto a human target, or are they just aiming for the position?
I'm suggesting NLOS and Dragon Fire as force multipliers, to confuse the SM and because they have some heavy fire power that can't easily be carried.
My question is how a ten-man squad is going to be expected to hump them into the field. It's not clear to me that the scenario specifies a mission where you're going to be able to truck a lot of extra gear into the field and set up a killing field for the Space Marine when he comes, and I think it's not really the intention of the person starting that thread to allow for more gear than the ten man squad could personally hump through the hills. That would be my concern when talking about setting up a large number of automatic firing positions.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Lucky » Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:11 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Because it we have a lot of equivalences to conevntional steel armor listed, and they're actually quite consistent. Here are the most informative two of them:
Picard wrote: The front armor is 98mm thick, but provides protection equivalent to approximately 300mm of conventional steel.
That's three times the total protection, but that includes several weaker layers and the inner ceramite / adamantium layer:
Imperial Armour Vol II, re: Predator wrote: The inner layer provides the main protection. Its a bonded ceramite/adamantium alloy which provides protection equal to over five times the same width of conventional steel, while being lighter. The second layer is a reinforcing thermoplas with a sub-dermal energy dissipation fibre mesh, providing protection against extremes of heat and radioactivity. The outer layer is a non-magnetic acrylic identification sheath. All in all, this corresponds to over 200mm of conventional steel on the front of the vehicle.
We also have a good idea of what the mass, velocity, and size of AP rounds for battle cannons are, which lines up with these figures.

In a sense, this is very unimpressive in terms of design. The IoM is building tanks that are laid out like WWI tanks, and putting physical thicknesses of armor on them that are comparable to early WWII tanks.

On the other hand, the figures given really do line up with the idea that the toughness of ceramite/adamantium layers really is a bit over 5x as tough as conventional steel (while being significantly lighter!), and Space Marine armor is fairly bulky. I haven't seen anything specific, as I have for Land Raiders, and ~100mm is an upper limit, but do note that if you're impacting at anything other than a perfectly orthogonal angle, the protection offered by an armor plate increases.

That's why I'm not terribly certain of the original M1 bazooka. But pretty much anything better at piercing armor than the old M1 bazooka should do the trick.
1) It sounds like you've concluded that "conventional steel" refers to something like roll homogeneous armour, but I'm not clear how you came to that conclusion?

2) How different is Space Marine power armor from Imperial Guard power armour? I'd think most of the bulk would be from the "electronically motivated fibre bundles" if Space Marine armour is like I.G. powered armour.
Jedi Master Spock wrote: In my debate with Thanatos, I set a hard upper limit on lascannon yield of 2 GJ, saying that there was absolutely no evidence for anything higher than that. That said, there's a lot of evidence that is perfectly reasonably interpreted as being in the neighborhood of a couple hundred megajoules.
1) If the majority of evidence provided points to hundreds of megajoules, and the minority of evidence points to low gigajoules then wouldn't it make the most sense to assume the gigajoule description is just slightly inaccurate, or the person running the numbers made a mistake in some form? I'm sure you can get something that looks like a low gigajoule event from hundreds of magejoules under the right circumstances.

2) How do you account for Anti-Tank Hunting Lances carried by mounted Imperial Guard being a sure kill if they hit? 2 gigajoules in explosive is going to be roughly half a ton of TNT
Jedi Master Spock wrote: A battle cannon, on the other hand, with an armor piercing sabot round, is much more effective against WH40K tank armor, in spite of the fact that it's only delivering a couple megajoules of energy on a similar-sized point.
Wouldn't that possibly point to "energy" weapons being poorly focused?

Jedi Master Spock wrote: Visual media usually show unrealistic velocity for bullets / bolts / etc. It's a serious problem (and one reason why the documentarian approach to analyzing fictional films/TV shows is seriously flawed, we could derive silly velocities for RL bullets that way) but if we want to retain our common sense, we really shouldn't pay very much attention to the visual velocity of bullets in cinematics.
The problem is that we are talking about bolts which are gyrojet/rocket rounds basically

Real World Gyro-jet Rounds Being Fired
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYZq5frO4rk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl6zcB83xng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoffTmg9bxU

Real World Home Made Rocket Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSx7AFLEwfg

Bolter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4BD8uiTUGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_b-qBTul44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBN5AwkfRnc

I'm just not seeing a notable difference between fiction and reality in this case
Jedi Master Spock wrote: Does the target system actually have the ability to lock onto a human target, or are they just aiming for the position?
From my understanding a Javelin can reliably kill a human it is targeting, and I would take that to mean it can target a Space Marine which seems to be the size of a VW beetle.

Jedi Master Spock wrote: My question is how a ten-man squad is going to be expected to hump them into the field. It's not clear to me that the scenario specifies a mission where you're going to be able to truck a lot of extra gear into the field and set up a killing field for the Space Marine when he comes, and I think it's not really the intention of the person starting that thread to allow for more gear than the ten man squad could personally hump through the hills. That would be my concern when talking about setting up a large number of automatic firing positions.
A ten man squad is not go to normally have the weapons needed to take down a Space Marine no matter how you cut it, and from what I understand it only takes one person a few minute to set up a Dragon Fire and they can be controlled remotely.

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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun May 04, 2014 8:36 am

Lucky wrote:1) It sounds like you've concluded that "conventional steel" refers to something like roll homogeneous armour, but I'm not clear how you came to that conclusion?
A lot of different ways. One of the key features of the Imperium is that local tech levels vary significantly. A lot of them are actually well under the level of modern technology. Not all worlds have the capability to produce supertech-level steel. Some of the worlds producing Leman Russ tanks are less advanced than our own in a lot of ways.

Another is that we know approximately the mass and velocity of ballistic projectiles that have the capability of threatening to penetrate the armor of these machines. This includes armor-penetrating discarding sabot rounds.

In particular, we know that the Vanquisher cannon fires an armor-penetrating sabot with a L/D ratio of about 3.5, based on diagrams in the appropriate Imperial Armour book. It's supposed to be depleted uranium, so the subcaliber sabot has a mass of about 10 kg.

The Earthshaker cannon fires a 38 kg shell at 814 m/s. Momentum is 30932 kg m/s.

The recoil of the Earthshaker is, unlike the recoil of the Vanquisher, dangerously high for the vehicle it is mounted on. This is in spite of the fact that the Earthshaker cannon is much larger (about 1.5 times as long and proportionately larger in all dimensions).

If the Vanquisher cannon had the same recoil energy as the Earthshaker cannon (with the Vanquisher cannon ~38% of the mass of the Earthshaker cannon), that would mean 19000 kg m/s of momentum for the shot.

Plug that back in for a 10 kg projectile, and you have a 1900 m/s velocity with an 18 MJ kinetic energy. (Ignoring the "discarded sabot" part of the round for the moment, which is significant).

This is applied over roughly a 40mm diameter circle (the diameter of the projectile is 1/3 of the 120mm caliber of the gun). This means that we have (right out of the muzzle) a momentum density of 15 meganewton-seconds per square meter, and an energy density of 14 gigajoules per square meter.

Compare to an M829A1 "silver bullet" penetrator. This has a 22mm diameter, 4.6 kg projectile, fired at 1575 m/s. Momentum density is 19 meganewton-seconds per square meters, and energy density is 15 gigajoules per square meter.

If we consider the fact that the sabot of the round is likely to weigh about as much as the penetrator (it's made from steel, not aluminum as the M829A1's sabot is) the momentum density drops by a factor of two (to 7.5 meganewton-seconds per square meter) and the energy density drops by a factor of four (to 3.5 gigajoules per square meter).

These are the two factors to consider if you're penetrating "conventional steel armor" (as opposed to weird physics-bending armor from some exotic material) - momentum density and energy determine whether or not you punch through.

I quote:
Imperial Armour Vol I wrote:Such is the power of the gun and the sophistication of the ammunition that there is no known armour a Vanquisher cannon cannot penetrate, even the thick armour of a Titan can be punctured.
The penetration of a M829A1 is 670mm at point blank.

We can fiddle around with the parameters of the Vanquisher cannon all we like, but as long as we actually pay attention to the underlying physics, it's not appreciably better, and it can pierce the armor of a titan, much less a Land Raider, and a Land Raider's armor is listed as equivalent to maybe 300mm of conventional steel.

When you come down to it, we have no reason to assume that "conventional steel" in the Imperial Armour books means anything really different from what it would if we happened across it in Jane's.
2) How different is Space Marine power armor from Imperial Guard power armour? I'd think most of the bulk would be from the "electronically motivated fibre bundles" if Space Marine armour is like I.G. powered armour.
A lot of the bulk has to be, but it doesn't take a lot of thickness of stuff five times as tough as conventional steel to go a long way, and it's also lighter than steel.

Realistically speaking, there's a pretty big range. An anti-materiel rifle might be plenty; or, on the other end, the original Mark I bazooka might not be quite enough. We can't really say from the evidence on hand.
1) If the majority of evidence provided points to hundreds of megajoules, and the minority of evidence points to low gigajoules then wouldn't it make the most sense to assume the gigajoule description is just slightly inaccurate, or the person running the numbers made a mistake in some form? I'm sure you can get something that looks like a low gigajoule event from hundreds of magejoules under the right circumstances.
Hundreds of megajoules is still a lot of energy. The heavy weapons I've been talking about using - recoilless rifles, RPGs, etc deliver a few megajoules to the target. The Javelin has a warhead that delivers several tens of megajoules to the target.

Even if it's a relatively large caliber weapon for its size, the lascannon delivers a lot of energy to a relatively small point.
2) How do you account for Anti-Tank Hunting Lances carried by mounted Imperial Guard being a sure kill if they hit? 2 gigajoules in explosive is going to be roughly half a ton of TNT
They're not a sure kill in all of the game systems. I would credit it to them being shaped-charge rounds, or possibly being charges that fire a penetrator point blank. Focusing the energy tightly makes a world of difference in piercing armor.
Wouldn't that possibly point to "energy" weapons being poorly focused?
Possibly.
I'm just not seeing a notable difference between fiction and reality in this case
Watch film that's supposed to be showing actual bullets (but is produced fictionally), and you'll see a similar speed. Even outside of the Matrix movies with their "bullet time." We just can't read too much into visuals of bullet-like objects flying - in order for us to perceive the effect of motion of a bullet on a human scale, it needs to be relatively slow.
A ten man squad is not go to normally have the weapons needed to take down a Space Marine no matter how you cut it, and from what I understand it only takes one person a few minute to set up a Dragon Fire and they can be controlled remotely.
I would disagree. I don't think infantry having / using heavy weapons (recoilless rifles and the like) is particularly out of the ordinary.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Equip a 10-man modern infantry force to beat a 40K space

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun May 04, 2014 3:29 pm

An example of... STEEL in Warhammer 40000 might prove relevant to this debate.

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