Response to Q&A 15 Part II: Firepower & Hull Strength

Did a related website in the community go down? Come back up? Relocate to a new address? Install pop-up advertisements?

This forum is for discussion of these sorts of issues.
Post Reply
Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5767
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Response to Q&A 15 Part II: Firepower & Hull Strength

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:13 am

This is second part of the response series to Brian Young's Q&A 15 YouTube video.
Brian, in your video you pose the question of what do we use for TOS firepower, if not the examples. Well, you yourself had to concede the "Who Mourns for Adonis" example was unreliable since the issue of the ship having to tie in its power into holding open Apollo's hand force field with a massive burst of M-rays rendered it inadmissible. But then you posed the riddle "What do we use then?".

I respond to that with "Lets go with the numerous dialog references of the ability of the ship to destroy a planet surface and utterly wipe out an advanced civilization, and tie that into other examples that bracket the TOS-era."

In this response, I will also address the issues of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, and why it is a bad example to use due to context and delve further into why "The Alternative factor is a bad example and thus all such bombardments examples are bad, except for setting lower limits for firepower. I will also address the Mutara Nebula battle and why your assessment is flawed.

So, without further ado, let's get to the nitty-gritty.

In the following sets of dialog examples we get proof from Federation officers as well as from one official of a planet who has no reason to lie about such things:


"The Cage" [TOS, Pilot, also "The Menagerie, Part I", Season 1]

TYLER: Then why aren't we doing anything? That entry may have stood up against hand lasers, but we can transmit the ship's power against it. Enough to blast half a continent.

This is the earliest example of someone indicating that the ship can generate enough power to carry out such an operation, and later a laser or phaser cannon is set up on the surface to try and blast through the entry, but appears to fail due to the Talosians' vast power of illusion:

Image

Later, of course, we see the damage done and most of the knoll is gone

Image

However, as Dr. Boyce says, they cannot trust anything they see or do because of the illusion power.

Next up is this dialog:

A Taste of Armageddon [TOS. Season 1]

SCOTT: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise.

[Council Room]

SCOTT [OC]:
All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes

[Bridge]

SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.


This pretty well establishes that a Constitution-class starship can carry out the complete destruction of a planet's surface. You might say that this is merely a bluff to scare the Eminiarians into submission, but there is no indication this is so, and the Eminiarians likely have advanced enough sensors that they could then scan the Enterprise to determine if the ship really has that much firepower.

There is this:

"Mirror, Mirror" [TOS, Season 2]

SPOCK: At norm, Mister Kyle. Controls at neutral.

KYLE: Yes, sir.

SPOCK: Status of mission, Captain?

KIRK: No change.

SPOCK: Standard procedure, Captain? (Kirk nods) Mister Sulu, you will programme phaser barrage on Halkan cities.

SULU [OC]: Yes, Mister Spock.

SPOCK: Their military capability, Captain?

KIRK: None.

SPOCK: Regrettable that this society has chosen suicide. Mister Kyle, you were instructed to compensate during the ion storm.

KYLE: But I tried, Mister Spock, I tried.


Later...

KIRK: Very good. Thank you, Mister Scott. Kirk out.

(Spock enters the Bridge.)

SPOCK: Planet's rotation is carrying primary target beyond arc of phaser lock.

SULU: Shall I correct orbit to new firing position?

KIRK: No.

SPOCK: Lock on to secondary city.

SULU: Aye, sir.

KIRK: Lieutenant Uhura, contact the Halkan council. I wish to talk to them again.

UHURA: Yes, sir.

SPOCK: Captain?

KIRK: This is a new race. They offer other things of value besides dilithium crystals.

SPOCK: But we cannot expect their co-operation. They have refused the Empire. Command procedure dictates that we provide the customary example.

SULU: Secondary target now moving beyond our phaser lock.

KIRK: Put phasers on standby, Mister Sulu.


So what we have is the Mirror Enterprise about fire down on the peaceful Halkans and the clear intention is to use phasers to blast city after city, destroying them and rather quickly. The second scene establishes that the phaser locks can only hold for a few minutes before they are out of range, and they likely intend no more than a few shots to utterly destroy each city. It also makes no sense for the Terran Empire to waste time with a ship spending many months in orbit destroying individual buildings and such to wipe out the Halkans.

Next up...

Bread And Circuses [TOS, Season 2]

SCOTT [OC]: Bridge. Scott here.
(Armed guards enter.)

KIRK: If I brought down a hundred of them armed with phasers

CLAUDIUS: you could probably defeat the combined armies of our entire empire, and violate your oath regarding noninterference with other societies. I believe you all swear you'll die before you'd violate that directive. Am I right?

SPOCK: Quite correct.

MCCOY: Must you always be so blasted honest?

CLAUDIUS: But on the other hand, why even bother to send your men down? From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world. Oh, but there's that Prime Directive in the way again. Can't interfere.

MERIK: Jim, you've already started a message. Your engineer's waiting. What are you going to do?


Claudius has no reason to lie here, and he had a former captain (Merik), to tell him all about the capabilities of what a starship can do. Claudius certainly knew about Sftarfleet procedures, thanks again to Merick.

And then there is this:

"Whom Gods Destroy" [TOS, Season 3]

MCCOY: Something's wrong.

SCOTT: Using the chess problem was the Captain's own suggestion. He couldn't have forgotten it, and I can't believe he was testing me. Lieutenant, re establish communication.

UHURA: Aye, sir. There's no response, Mister Scott.

SCOTT: Send an armed detail to the transporter room immediately.

UHURA: Aye, aye, sir.

SCOTT: Mister Sulu, what do your sensors show?

SULU: We can't beam anybody down, sir. The force field on the planet is in full operation, and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off.

SCOTT: We could blast our way through the field, but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba Two.

MCCOY: How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless?


Later...

SCOTT: No breakthrough?
UHURA: No, Mister Scott. Still no response from the planet.

SCOTT: Sensor readings?

SULU: The force field is weakest on the far side of the planet. We can send down a shuttlecraft carrying a team in environmental suits.

MCCOY: It won't work, Scotty. They'd have to cover thousands of miles through poisonous atmosphere before they'd ever reach the asylum.

SCOTT: Aye, you're right. Even if they made it, they couldn't carry anything powerful enough to break through the asylum dome. Only the ship herself could do that.

MCCOY: Probably kill Jim and Spock.

SCOT: Doctor, they may already be dead.


Later on still...

SULU: There's been an explosion on Elba Two!

SCOTT: Point nine five!

MCCOY: It must've wiped out everything.

SCOTT: Immediate probe. Is the force field in place, Mister Sulu?

SULU: Yes, sir. Solidly.

UHURA: (at Spock's station) Life continues to exist on the planet.

MCCOY: Got to break through it somehow.

SCOTT: Doctor, I told you we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome.

MCCOY:
I know it, Scotty.

SCOTT: Well, there's one last thing we might try. Perhaps the ship's phasers can cut through a section of the force field at its weakest point. Where did you say that was located, Mister Sulu?

SULU: On the far side of the planet, Mister Scott.

MCCOY: Will it leave a margin of safety for the people below?

SULU: Yes, sir.

SCOTT: Prepare to change orbital path, Mister Sulu.

SULU: Orbital co-ordinates released, sir.

SCOTT: Break synchronous orbit. Come to course one four mark six eight.

(after a few moments)

SULU: Course one four mark six eight. Synchronous orbit re-established, sir.

SCOTT: Ship's phasers to narrow beam.

SULU: Ship's phasers ready, sir.

SCOTT: Let's punch a hole in it. Full power. Another blast, full power.

SULU: Force field still holding, sir.


So the ship can potentially destroy all life on a planet with the possible secondary effects of a full phaser blast, even from the far side of the planet from where any inhabitants and structures are located. This example is also noteworthy in that of all the examples, it is a rare time that someone orders phasers to full power. In neither "The Alternative Factor", nor "Who Mourns for Adonis", does anyone order phasers to full power.

Hull Strength

Now we move on to something else of importance. Hull strength. In his video, Brian claims that Structural Reinforcement Fields (SIF) is only for holding the ships together. But he missed this very interesting piece of information on how the SIF render the hulls very resistant to beam weapon damage:

The Chase [TNG, season 6] (Example of hull resilency via SIF)

WORF: Direct hit on our port nacelle. They are powering up for another volley.

RIKER: Let's make it look good. Ensign, release the inertial dampers.

ENSIGN: Aye, sir.

WORF: They are firing.
(everything shakes as the Cardassians target the nacelle again and fly off)

PICARD: Report, Number One.

RIKER: The power boost to the structural integrity field protected the nacelles. We used the inertial dampers to simulate complete shield failure.

NU'DAQ: It is fortunate that your Engineer discovered Gul Ocett's attempt to tamper with your defensive systems. Maht-H'a. Status.

KLINGON [OC]: Minor damage to starboard nacelle. We will be operational in less than one hour.

NU'DAQ: What? You incompetent Top'a. You were supposed to be prepared.

WORF:The Cardassian vessels have set a course for Rahm Izad.


So a starship hull can be protected against phaser fire nearly or completely with SIF, thus seeing even unshielded ships hit with phasers is rendered unreliable, unless we know for absolute certain that the vessel is well and truly powered down and utterly inert.

We also know from Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan, that the Enterprise went to Yellow Alert and activated various defensive systems:

KIRK: This is damned peculiar. ...Yellow Alert.

SAAVIK: Energise defence fields.

UHURA: I'm getting a voice message. They say their Chambers coil is overloading their Comm system.

KIRK: Spock?

SPOCK: Scanning. Their coil emissions are normal.


So the Enterprise's hull wasn't inert and unprotected at the time of the attack. Nor was the Mutara Nebula battle, as Brian claims, was not merely as simple as they were fully out to kill each other, and the damage was consistent with the first fight. We see this at the end:

A single photon torpedo strike on the torpedo launcher causes massive damage several orders of magnitude larger than anything previous as well as compared to the destruction of Lazarus' timeship from "The Alternative Factor" But we also have other factors to consider such as the effects of the near miss of Enterprise's phasers early on in the battle :

Image
Image

A Phaser strike on the starboard nacelle nearly blows it clean in half:

Image

A follow up torpedo hit severs the nacelle from its pylon:

Image

The full battle can be viewed here, starting around 4:00.

The Enterprise's phasers cause the Reliant to rock about 20 meters to one side instantly. This means the phasers are powerful enough to cause a nearly million ton starship to sway to one side just by the secondary energy bleed. That's a lot of power:

Inputs:
mass (m) kilogram grain gram milligram pound slug ton long ton metric ton short
velocity (v) meter/second centimeter/hour centimeter/second foot/day foot/second inch/hour inch/second kilometer/hour kilometer/second knot mach sea level 15 C meter/day mile/hour mile/second millimeter/second speed of light in vacuum yard/second


Conversions:
mass (m) = 1000000 ton long = 1016046908.7994 kilogram
velocity (v) = 20 meter/second = 20 meter/second


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution:
kinetic energy (K) = 203,209,381,759.89 joule


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's 200.3 gigajoules, and that just from a bare grazing of the upper pylon of phaser beams secondary effects! And remem that it is clearly established in the B5 episode "Points of Departure", that Babylon 5's 200 megawatts cannons are sufficient to threaten and destroy the Sharlin-class Trigati.

Another point to address concerning the condition of the Enterprise and Reliant in the Mutara Nebula battle; neither ship was in prime condition as we see in these quotes:

[Reliant bridge]

JOACHIM: Impulse power restored.
KHAN:Excellent! More than a match for poor Enterprise.


[Enterprise]

SPOCK: They're inoperative below C-deck.

KIRK:
What is working around here?

SPOCK:
Not much, Admiral. We have partial main power.

KIRK: That's it?

SPOCK: Best we could do in two hours.


Moments later...

SULU: Admiral on the bridge.

KIRK: Battle stations. ...Tactical. ...Uh oh.

SPOCK: She can out-run us and out-gun us. But there is the Mutara Nebula at one five three mark four.

KIRK: Scotty, can we make it inside?

SCOTT: The energiser's bypassed like a Christmas tree, ...so don't give me too many bumps.
KIRK: No promises. On your way.


Sorry, Brian, but neither ship was in very good shape, and neither had full power. Reliant had only full impulse power and Enterprise had only partial main power, and that was in delicate condition as per Scotty's dialog. So this is not a good indicator and despite that, again as shown in my evidence provided, the Enterpriseblew up the launcher pod with a single torpedo, half of a warp coil-filled warp nacelle with a phaser blast, and severed the remainder off with a single torpedo. That's a lot of damage for a heavily damaged and very underpowered ship. This is why having you (Brian) lift firepower examples out of context gets you accused of dishonesty, because doing so changes how people reading or listening perceive the events as you present them.

Let's go on to other hull strength examples that provide clues as to Federation starship hull strength:

"Descent, Part 2" [TNG, Season 7]

TAITT: Sir, that heading takes us directly into the sun.

CRUSHER: The databanks should contain information about a process called metaphasic shielding.

BARNABY: I know about that research. Commander La Forge was developing a programme that would implement metaphasic properties.

CRUSHER: Right. How far along was he?

BARNABY: It's in the databanks but it's never been tested.

CRUSHER: If we had metaphasic shielding, we could enter the sun's corona but the Borg ship wouldn't be able to follow. Can you bring the programme online?

BARNABY: I can, but we have no way of knowing if the shields will hold.

TAITT: Sir, hull temperature is rising. Now at twelve thousand degrees C. Radiation level nearing ten thousand rads.

(weapons hit)

CRUSHER: Report.

TAITT: Shields at sixty two percent.

CRUSHER: Lieutenant, activate the metaphasic programme. It's our best shot.

BARNABY: Aye, sir.

TAITT: Hull temperature is critical. We can't withstand this heat much longer.

BARNABY: Programme is online. Engaging metaphasic shield now.

TAITT:Hull temperature dropping. Down to seven thousand degrees.

CRUSHER: Maintain course.


So we have an upper limit that is over 12,000 degrees C. By comparison,the boiling point of iron is 2,750.0 °C.

And then there's this video chock full of examples of the firepower and huill strength of the Enterprise's sister ship Defiant in this video here. Notice how the Defiant effortlessly destroys ships much larger than herself and canonically established to be able to withstand easily the 500 gigajoule + firepower of the NX-01. The same ship also withstands a couple of minutes of unshielded bombardment by similar weapons of the NX-class I.S.S. Avenger, and as you can see, doesn't suffer so much as smudged hull paint.

Any Minbari ship trying to burn through the hull of a Constitution-class starship is going to have to work really hard to pull that off.

And now on to....

"The Alternative Factor" [TOS, season 1] (Special Circumstances)

UHURA: Nothing yet, sir.

MASTERS: (A woman in a blue uniform) Report on the dilithium crystals, Captain.

KIRK: Yes.

MASTERS: Whatever that phenomenon was, it drained almost all of our crystals completely. It could mean trouble.

KIRK: You have a talent for understatement, Lieutenant. Without full crystal power, our orbit will begin to decay in ten hours. Re-amplify immediately.

MASTERS: Aye aye, sir.

KIRK: Any further magnetic disturbance?

SPOCK: Negative, Captain. Scanners indicate situation normal.

KIRK: Nothing?

SPOCK: Nothing. Illogical. An effect of such proportions, unexplainable by any established physical laws that I'm aware of. I have been able to ascertain one fact. Though the effect, whatever it was, was unquestioningly widespread, it was strongest here on the planet beneath us.

KIRK: Keep checking.

UHURA: Red Two message in one minute, Captain. Starfleet Command. Code Factor one, sir.

KIRK: Repeat.

UHURA: Code Factor one.

KIRK: Invasion status. All hands, this is the Captain. Battle stations. I repeat, battle stations. This is no drill.

MCCOY [OC]: McCoy, Captain.

KIRK: Kirk here.

MCCOY [OC]: About our patient.

KIRK: Yes, Doctor, quickly.

MCCOY [OC]: He'll make it. He'll be stiff and sore for a while, but he'll be all right.

KIRK: I'll talk to him later. Thank you. Kirk out.

UHURA: Message ready, Captain. Main screen, coming up.

KIRK: Kirk here. Enterprise standing by, Commodore.

BARSTOW [on viewscreen]: You're aware of the effect an hour ago?

KIRK: Yes, sir.

BARSTOW [on viewscreen]: You may not be aware of its scope. It occurred in every quadrant of the galaxy and far beyond. Complete disruption of normal magnetic and gravimetric fields, timewarp distortion, possible radiation variations. And all of them centring on the general area which you are now patrolling. The question is, are these natural phenomena or are they mechanically created, and if they are, by whom? For what purpose? Your guess, Captain.

KIRK: Thank you, sir. I have considered all the alternatives. My best guess is it could be a prelude to invasion.

BARSTOW [on viewscreen]: Exactly our consensus. I'm giving you the job of finding out specifically.

KIRK; Aye, aye, sir. Can you assign me other starships as a reserve?

BARSTOW [on viewscreen]: Negative. I'm evacuating all Starfleet units and personnel within a hundred parsecs of your position. It's going to be tough on you and the Enterprise, but that's the job you've drawn. You're on your own.

KIRK: I see. You mean, we're the bait.

BARSTOW [on viewscreen]: Good luck.

KIRK: Thank you, sir. (transmission ends) Maintain alert status at all battle stations.

UHURA: Aye aye, sir.

KIRK: From the top, Mister Spock. First, the phenomenon came from the planet below. Secondly, the danger is apparently real and imminent.
SPOCK: Third, a closer examination of the planet's surface would be in order. My job, sir?

KIRK: Yes. Meanwhile, I'll talk to our unexpected guest. Maybe he can provide some answers.


Later...

[Briefing room]

KIRK: What have we got, Mister Spock? A magnetic effect which produces a winking-out phenomenon. A mysterious, unidentified source of radiation on the planet. Lazarus, a walking powder keg. Your rip in the universe. A so-called murdering humanoid.

SPOCK: True, Captain, but more significant to me is the fact that our ship's instruments are specifically designed to locate and identify any object in our universe, be it energy or matter.

KIRK: But by using those instruments you were unable to identify the source of the radiation on the planet.

SPOCK: Correct. Which would seem to be impossible.

KIRK: Are the instruments in order?

SPOCK: Perfect working condition.

KIRK: Then what you say leads obviously to one alternative. The source of radiation is not from our universe.

SPOCK: Nor in our universe, Captain. It came from outside.

KIRK: Outside? Yes, that would explain a lot. Another universe, perhaps in another dimension, occupying the same space at the same time.

SPOCK: The possible existence of a parallel universe has been scientifically conceded, Captain.

KIRK: All right. What would happen if another universe, say a minus universe, came into contact with a positive universe such as ours?

SPOCK: Unquestionably a warp. A distortion of physical laws on an immense scale.

KIRK: Which is what we've been experiencing. The point where they come into contact, couldn't that be described as a hole?

SPOCK: Indeed. I point out that a hole in the universe or in a simple container can either allow the contents to escape

KIRK: Or what is outside to enter. The invasion that Commodore Barstow suspected.

SPOCK: There has been no evidence of a large-scale invasion.

KIRK: But a small scale invasion, Mister Spock. What is your analysis of the mental state of Lazarus?

SPOCK: Difficult, Captain. One moment, paranoid, the next, calm, mild, rational. Almost as if he were two men.

KIRK: Yes, two men. Different, but identical. And a hole in the universe. No, not a hole, A door.

SPOCK: Through which these two beings are somehow enabled to pass.

KIRK: Take a look at Lazarus. One minute he's at the point of death, the next he's alive, well, strong as a bull.

SPOCK: The cut on his forehead. First he has it, then it's gone, then he has it again.

KIRK:Which is physically impossible for one man.

SPOCK: Quite right. Unquestionably, there are two of him.

KIRK: What's going on? This leaping from universe to universe. This wild talk about a murdering creature who destroys civilisations What's the purpose?

SPOCK: Jim, madness has no purpose or reason, but it may have a goal. He must be stopped, held. Destroyed if necessary.

KIRK: I don't follow you.

SPOCK: Two parallel universes project this. One positive, the other negative. Or, more specifically, one matter, the other antimatter.

KIRK: Do you know what you're saying? Matter and antimatter have a tendency to cancel each other out. violently.

SPOCK: Precisely. Under certain conditions, when two identical particles of matter and antimatter meet

KIRK: Like Lazarus. Identical. Like both Lazarus', only one is matter and the other antimatter. If they meet.

SPOCK: Annihilation, Jim. Total, complete, absolute annihilation.

KIRK: Of everything that exists, everywhere.


Whew! So we see in the provided dialog that this ship was not sitting around doing nothing and it was creating effects that literally caused the laws of physics to go berserk, drained the ship's dilithium crystals, emitted some weird unidentifiable radiation, effects every freakin' quadrant in the galaxy and beyond, and more, and you don't think this kind of thing was going to effect the phasers? Really?

Star Trek V:The Final Frontier (Special Circumstances)

GOD: Bring it closer so that I might join with it. Do it or watch these puny beings ...die horribly.

SYBOK: What have I done?

KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise. Listen carefully.

SPOCK: Sybok.

SYBOK: This is my doing! This is my arrogance, ... my vanity...

SPOCK: Sybok, we must find a way...

SYBOK: No! Save yourselves! ...Forgive me, brother. Forgive me.
...I couldn't help but notice your pain.

GOD: My pain?

SYBOK: It runs deep. Share it with me.

(Sybok boldly enters the shaft and embraces his evil twin)

KIRK: Enterprise, ...are you ready?

[Enterprise-A bridge]

SULU: Enterprise. Torpedo armed.

CHEKOV: But Captain, we're firing directly on your position.

[Sha Ka Ree crater]

KIRK: Send it down Mister Chekov. ...Now! ...Run!


This is telling since Kirk gets the "Listen up" line in there, then the camera cuts to Spock and Sybok and we don't hear the rest of what he says. It is quite possible that Kirk ordered the torpedo to minimum yield. Remember that even the primitive photonic torpedoes of the 22nd century could be set in such a fashion:

REED: Photonic torpedoes. Their range is over fifty times greater than our conventional torpedoes, and they have a variable yield. They can knock the comm. array off a shuttlepod without scratching the hull or they can put a three kilometre crater into an asteroid.

Would you, Brian, seriously suggest that the NX-01 weapons be able to do something the 23rd century Constitution-class starship photon torpedoes cannot? And remember on top of this all, Kirk is not likely going to kill himself and his friends, if there's a fighting chance for life. Same thing with Spock, who comes down in Klaa's Bird of Prey and is the one who fires the disruptor cannons to drive "God" away for good. It seems unlikely that Spock would want to kill his captain and best friend within a nuclear-scale fireball.

Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual Inconsistencies


The TNG TM is rife with them. Here are a few examples (special thanks to Lucky for finding these!):

Page: 129
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield (assuming E=MC^2 and 100% efficiency) = about 64 Megatons

Page: 141
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = about 2.39 Gigatons

Page: 141
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = about 5 kilotons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 129 wrote:


While the maximum payload of anti-matter in a standard torpedo is only about 1.5 kilograms, the released energy per unit of time is actual greater then that calculated for a Galaxy class anti-matterpod rupture.

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 64.44 Megatons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 141 wrote:


Matter from the primary deuterium tankage and the total supply of anti-matter from the storage pods on Deck 42 are expelled simultaneously, producing an energy release on the order of 10^15 megajoules, roughly 1000 photon torpedos.

1 Megajoule = 1000000 Joules

10^15 = 1000000000000000

10^15 Megajoules = 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 J

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 J = 10 zettajoules

10 zettajoules = 2390057.36138 Megatons

2390057.36138 Megatons / 1000 = 2390.05736138 Megatons

2390.05736138 Megatons = 2.390057361 Gigatons

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 2.39 Gigatons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 141 wrote
:

The release yield of the secondary system is calculated to be 10^9 megajoules, roughly equivalent to 500 photon torpedos. The secondary destruct system becomes the primary system for the Saucer Module in Separated Flight Node.

10^9 Megajoules = 1000000000 Megajoules

1000000000 Megajoules = 10000000000000000 Joules

10,000,000,000,000,000 Joules = 10 Petajoules

10 Petajoules = 2390.05736138 kilotons

2390.05736138 kilotons / 500 = 4.78011472276 kilotons

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 5 kilotons

So, how can the TNG TM be considered reliable as a fall back source? Which photon torpedo yield do we choose? How can shields rated at a mere 400 GW be capable of defending against even the lowest of the firepower figures? If the shields can, in fact, defend against them, then it means they can dissipate 25 kilotons to 12 gigatons! So, Brian, you really want to keep using that book as a fall back?

I'll have Part III up in a week or so, and that'll deal with the miscellaneous issues, including the messy ones of name-calling and character.
-Mike

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: Response to Q&A 15 Part II: Firepower & Hull Strength

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:37 pm

I am not sure about the quality of your arguments, although I'm pretty sure you did your best to present the most convincing and exhaustive case ever. What I do know, however, is how I above all condone your choice of colours, mister.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5767
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Response to Q&A 15 Part II: Firepower & Hull Strength

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:33 am

Its a lot of material to cover, mostly because I have to fill in the vast amount of context and evidence that Brian did not put into his original Minbari versus Federation video.

Oh, and I'm glad you like the colors. ;-)
-Mike

Lucky
Jedi Master
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Response to Q&A 15 Part II: Firepower & Hull Strength

Post by Lucky » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:27 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual Inconsistencies


The TNG TM is rife with them. Here are a few examples (special thanks to Lucky for finding these!):

Page: 129
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield (assuming E=MC^2 and 100% efficiency) = about 64 Megatons

Page: 141
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = about 2.39 Gigatons

Page: 141
Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = about 5 kilotons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 129 wrote:


While the maximum payload of anti-matter in a standard torpedo is only about 1.5 kilograms, the released energy per unit of time is actual greater then that calculated for a Galaxy class anti-matterpod rupture.

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 64.44 Megatons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 141 wrote:


Matter from the primary deuterium tankage and the total supply of anti-matter from the storage pods on Deck 42 are expelled simultaneously, producing an energy release on the order of 10^15 megajoules, roughly 1000 photon torpedos.

1 Megajoule = 1000000 Joules

10^15 = 1000000000000000

10^15 Megajoules = 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 J

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 J = 10 zettajoules

10 zettajoules = 2390057.36138 Megatons

2390057.36138 Megatons / 1000 = 2390.05736138 Megatons

2390.05736138 Megatons = 2.390057361 Gigatons

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 2.39 Gigatons

Publisher: Pocket Books Star Trek
Title: Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual
ISBN: 978-0-6717-0427-8
Page: 141 wrote
:

The release yield of the secondary system is calculated to be 10^9 megajoules, roughly equivalent to 500 photon torpedos. The secondary destruct system becomes the primary system for the Saucer Module in Separated Flight Node.

10^9 Megajoules = 1000000000 Megajoules

1000000000 Megajoules = 10000000000000000 Joules

10,000,000,000,000,000 Joules = 10 Petajoules

10 Petajoules = 2390.05736138 kilotons

2390.05736138 kilotons / 500 = 4.78011472276 kilotons

Maximum Photon Torpedo Yield = 5 kilotons

So, how can the TNG TM be considered reliable as a fall back source? Which photon torpedo yield do we choose? How can shields rated at a mere 400 GW be capable of defending against even the lowest of the firepower figures? If the shields can, in fact, defend against them, then it means they can dissipate 25 kilotons to 12 gigatons! So, Brian, you really want to keep using that book as a fall back?

I'll have Part III up in a week or so, and that'll deal with the miscellaneous issues, including the messy ones of name-calling and character.
-Mike
I don't really deserve much thanks. I was lurking at Star Destroyer.net, and someone brought up the fact the Next Generation Technical Manual had three conflicting maximum yields for photon torpedos. I'm hardly the first person to notice this, and mention it on a site like this.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5767
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Response to Q&A 15 Part II: Firepower & Hull Strength

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:09 pm

Maybe not in all the Internet, but you are the first person here to do so, Lucky, and you should get proper credit for it.
-Mike

Post Reply