Virus-X and the Section 31 Project at ST-v-SW.Net

[2046]

Back in 2002 or 2003, a fellow contacted me and started sending samples of his utter takedown of StarDestroyer.Net, written in the same style and even as a response to that site's fictitious Imperial author "Jarren Korr", but instead written from the perspective of the Federation's shadow group Section 31 and one of its most fascinating characters, Sloan. The takedown was composed of a huge mass of Word documents, and it was agreed that I would help convert them to HTML and stylize them properly to serve as his own little sub-site to my own. A teaser of this project was posted back in March 2003.

Unfortunately, the guy was a total machine, and I was overwhelmed, even back then during my more prolific years. Eventually, it was decided that he would seek to make his own full site himself or with other assistance, though to my knowledge nothing ever came of it. I hated to see the work wasted, and ten years later I found that he'd been providing the private link to it elsewhere, as seen on this response page from "Darth Timon". (That's not meant in a bad way, it just means I don't feel bad posting it publicly.)

So, click on the Defiant and see a taste of what might have been.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Back in 2002 or 2003, a fellow contacted me and started sending samples of his utter takedown of StarDestroyer.Net, written in the same style and even as a response to that site's fictitious Imperial author "Jarren Korr", but instead written from the perspective of the Federation's shadow group Section 31 and one of its most fascinating characters, Sloan. The takedown was composed of a huge mass of Word documents, and it was agreed that I would help convert them to HTML and stylize them properly to serve as his own little sub-site to my own. A teaser of this project was posted back in March 2003.

Unfortunately, the guy was a total machine, and I was overwhelmed, even back then during my more prolific years. Eventually, it was decided that he would seek to make his own full site himself or with other assistance, though to my knowledge nothing ever came of it. I hated to see the work wasted, and ten years later I found that he'd been providing the private link to it elsewhere, as seen on this response page from "Darth Timon". (That's not meant in a bad way, it just means I don't feel bad posting it publicly.)

So, click on the Defiant and see a taste of what might have been.

Interesting!
So let me get this right. The author of the website hosted on wix says this about himself:

What is there to say about myself? Well, I live in the UK, I am mad about science fiction, I love to sink my teeth into juicy debates, and I am a huge fan of Formula 1 motor racing. I am also, for my sins, a fan of Liverpool Football Club (which is usually a painful experience, as any Liverpool fan will tell you!

My greatest loves though, are my wife and daughter.

My wife has taught me that I can be a far better person than I ever thought possible. I used to struggle to have faith in myself, and was convinced I would wind up alone. Thanks to my wife, those doubts are gone. She has given me so much, and I will never be able to fully express my gratitude- or my love.

My daughter is a ray of sunshine, every day. Becoming a father is the best thing to ever happen to me. Hearing her laugh, or wave hello to me when I come home from work, is by itself an incredibly rewarding experience. She is my little angel and she will always be my little angel.

I think I know this chap. I'm almost sure to have crossed his path at a stargate internet community hub.

So Darth Timon (meerkat?) got in contact with Isaac Jacob and somewhat ended hosting part of IJ's work...
What we learn about him on the section hosted by Robert:

The sole purpose of these pages is to debate Star Wars vs. Star Trek on the premise of which side would win, in the event of a crossover and the breakout of hostilities. This site compares such things as levels of technology in many areas, logistics, tactics, etc. Basically, it’s designed to be the counterpoint to the world-famous http://www.stardestroyer.net. However, while http://www.stardestoyer.net is a pro-Star Wars site, this is a pro-Star Trek site, because, obviously, I believe that the Star Trek forces would win out. That site was designed by a mechanical engineer, this one by an electronics engineer, though I’ve only got an associates degree. I’ve also gone through the United States Army Military Police Corps, worked with SRT (the Special Reaction Team) and other departments within the MP Corps, and was stationed in the Republic of Panama, so I do have military knowledge and first-hand experience. Michael Wong (the mechanical engineer) is a very intelligent person, and to insure that my site has the standards that his does, I consult with the personnel at http://www.madsci.org. An extremely good site to visit and ask rational, scientific-based questions, staffed by scientists and engineers from around the world with expertise in virtually every field. Visit it. It’s fun. (If you like that sort of thing.)

Generally, on this site, I will be speaking as Luthor Sloan, the former Section 31 officer that might’ve lost his life due to the interference of Deep Space Nine’s Chief Medical Officer and Chief of Operations. As opposed to going into political beliefs and why I harbor a grudge against them both, I’ll just say that he’s alive and well, and working on plans with the rest of Section 31 and United Federation of Planets Starfleet forces OP-COM (under Operational Command) to him by contacts in Starfleet and the UFP Council. Various Section 31 field operatives have already invaded the Star Wars galaxy (which is in another plane of existence), and are gathering information. The character portrayed by Michael Wong on his site ( have I mentioned it, enough?) is an Imperial officer. This officer (which is referred to as the Tertiary Junior Adjutant to the 11th Assistant Deputy to the Undersecretary of the Analyst of Intelligence) is under direct Section 31 surveillance, and we’re basically reading his reports over his shoulder with surveillance devices, and taps into his computers, even seeing them as they’re being written. What is written by Sloan is a critique of the junior adjutant’s reports, and he is completely in disagreement and presenting his reasons as to why he disagrees. While there may be laughable tones, or even insults, this is only a game to me, and nothing more. Unlike Mike Wong, however, I will not mire myself in scientific principals, as modern day science and scientific theories have very little footing in the Star Trek/Star Wars universes. Hyperdrive, warp drive, subspace radio, etc. All things that we cannot explain in anything other than a realistic fashion, but make no mistake that our explanations are not, in all probability, realistic. Additionally, Michael Wong insists on portraying the Galactic Empire as this government that controls the entire galaxy, and all worlds, therein. Never at any time did the Empire rule the entire galaxy, and sticking to the books and movies, I will portray them as they are, currently, circa the New Jedi Order/post Endor Massacre (post-Battle of Endor). He also insists on creating characters like the mythological "Emperor Solo", which is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. If this is a debate over technological prowess, such wishful thinking doesn’t factor into it, anywhere. The UFP will be portrayed just as is, in the post-Voyager return era. The Galactic Empire/New Republic/Corporate Sector Authority forces will, as well. I don’t need to artificially inflate the size of the United Federation of Planets & it’s Starfleet to see a probable victory over the Star Wars forces, though, apparently, Wong isn’t so confident in the forces he champions as being so supreme.

This site, for the most part, is presented in humorous overtones, due to the fact that this is a discussion of Star Wars versus Star Trek in a big, spectacular war, and who would win. This is not real science. It is science fiction, and anyone that attempts to bully others into falling in line and saying "this is physically possible, and that is not", can just kiss my ass. Attempting to intimidate others by citing dry books full of physical laws and droning on about how much more intelligent you are than other people, because you got a degree in something shows, precisely, that this is not the site for you, and you should go someplace else to read about this debate. I have no tolerance for people like you, and don't see myself developing any, anytime in the future. It is intended to entertain, though it is possible to learn a thing or two; however, if you really want to learn something, don't come here for knowledge, go to go to http://www.madsci.org, where real scientists and real engineers are there to do just that: educate. While you're at it, either stay in school, or enroll. While some of the explanations are presented in a 'scientific fashion', that's all they are. Some may even be scientific, but, considering this is Star Wars & Star Trek, neither are bound to our limited understanding of our physical universe. Remember, not long ago, people considered flight impossible, tomatoes poisonous and mental illness a manifestation of signs of demonic possession. Now, with the new ignorance, we have people that decry that Christians are out to get them, and that people have to have everything their way. Sit down and shut the Hell up.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yeah, already met this Darth Timon bloke.
At the very bottom of the first post, on page 3/5, thread Mojo: SW Canon.
Link brings you to Gateworld, where I met Darth Timon at page 12 of BC-304 vs. Imperial Star Destroyer.
He adopted a typical Saxtonian stance on the topic.
More to come... tee hee hee ^_^

[Mr. Oragahn]

When I typeid the acronym of Isaac Jacob, IJ, for some reason it readily sounded close to some Spacebattles member, IXjac.
And guess what watchdog said in the post following mine in the Mojo: SW canon thread?

Mr. Oragahn the forum debate you linked to reminded me of one from long ago at SB.com;
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=18860
Many of my favorite points were made by my favorite poster there IXjac.
There were also some good points made at an earlier thread there;
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=17090
Any thoughts?

Robert, I have a feeling that the Virus-X dude is no one else but IXjac himself.
Note the X btw, inserted between I (for Isaac) and jac (for Jacob).

[2046]

I was never of the opinion that VX and IXJac were the same person. I don't know if VX is active anywhere now but I figure that his extraordinary output mixed with my inability to get him up and running probably eventually resulted in burnout.

As to the history relating to Darth Timon's responses to the Section 31 pages, I don't know when exactly that was made, since the site doesn't appear on web.archive.org . . . for all I know it's new.

[Mr. Oragahn]

But the similarities are rather striking. A cursory glance at search results into IXjac's activity at spacebattles reveals interests and a type of knowledge that matches quite well IJ's profile.

One can still compare IXjac's arguments in the threads watchdog linked to with the arguments presented on the hosted websites.
And if age is of any relevance, today, IXjac is 36 years old.

[Mike DiCenso]

One of the biggest dangers, however, is bias.

There are plenty out there that are virtually incapable of true debate, because they’re too biased, and psychologically incapable of realizing that they’re wrong, but would adamantly refuse to admit to being wrong, because, in their eyes, they can’t be. People that fall under this category are completely unreliable sources of information, as everything they say must be meticulously investigated and verified. They are not above lying, and probably do so with regularity, in order to push their own personal agenda. I can name a lot of people involved in the Star Wars vs. Star Trek debate that fall under this heading, and many fall right behind them, seeing these types as their best hope for ‘victory’ and vindication, even if it means doing it through dishonorable means. These are the individuals that commit 2 types of lies: lies of commission and lies of omission.

A lie of commission is the addition of something that was, originally, a truthful statement, and making it into a lie, even if that is a single word, or improper emphasis on a word, or words.

A lie of omission is one in which a word, or words, are deleted, thereby altering the verisimilitude of the statement, changing truth into lies.

In the Army, from which I hail, both are just as dishonorable, and the products of people that are just as low.

They intentionally misquote texts, relying upon the laziness of the masses not to check for themselves, and to let others do their thinking for them. They intentionally twist dialogue and text to make it say whatever they wish it to say, shamelessly, and even when caught in a lie, may not admit to being liars.

Boy, ain't this the truth. A very insightful fellow, at least on this point. Too bad this project never went through.
-Mike

[2046]

Sporadic genius, yes, though there was an unfortunate incident related to his debate with Wong wherein he expressed an inappropriate urge based, I am sure, on having exposed himself for too long to the violent SDN culture of the day. He basically said to me via e-mail that he wished he had Wong's address so he could go beat him up in front of his family. Worse, he accidentally sent the e-mail to Wong, too.

I don't have the full text of my response but I presume that was the beginning of the end of what working relationship we had, or maybe a final nail, I don't recall.

Don't get me wrong… I seem to recall having expressed once or twice, exasperated and in private to allies, the desire for the Talifans to stop pussy-footing around with their threats and actually come get some. But the character of such a statement is, if I may say so, rather different than wanting to be the aggressor, and nasty about it, to boot.

[2046]

I don't have the full text of my response but I presume that was the beginning of the end of what working relationship we had, or maybe a final nail, I don't recall.

Actually, after reviewing further, it appears that my response was the last e-mail I sent him at all, nor do I see any further mail from him. Some of my e-mail records from that era are fragmented, however, since they were recovered from a dead hard drive . . . hence my not having the full text of my reply. Based on the condition of some of the e-mails, I may bump into the missing pieces embedded in a different e-mail altogether someday.

Wong claims that the author went further, claiming he said he wanted to actually beat up the whole family, but there is no evidence of that. The claim originated with Wayne Poe who was stalking the guy via LiveJournal and claimed to have the text of a deleted post, but VX denied that ever happened. Given Wayne's behaviors in that era and the fact that VX had probably already heard from me about his lesser suggestion, I rather doubt he would have gone further.

Having found this stuff after releasing the work I was tempted to reconsider the release, but I figure a ten year embargo, even if only quasi-intentional, is adequate punishment for having allowed oneself to be infected by the pro-violence comments prevalent among the SDN crowd of that era.

[Mike DiCenso]

It's both disgusting and pathetic to see Wong whine and cry over someone making threats over him when he himself openly encouraged (or at the very least not done anything to discourage) Wayne to write a violence-filled fanfic against you, a threatening animated video about killing Karen Traviss, and went after her personally on StarWars.com. Wong himself went to great lengths to attack Graham Kennedy's reputation some years earlier. At the same time, Wong openly encouraged others of his followers to make stealth attacks on other forums, publish or post the addresses of opponents, etc.

So what the hell did he expect in return at some point? The double-standard is amazing.
I'll go after you, your job, your reputation, and have my followers make threats of violence, but don't you DARE do the same to me!

I think it was a good thing for first Wayne and then Wong to drop out of the debates years ago before something really did happen.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

It's both disgusting and pathetic to see Wong whine and cry over someone making threats over him when he himself openly encouraged (or at the very least not done anything to discourage) Wayne to write a violence-filled fanfic against you, a threatening animated video about killing Karen Traviss, and went after her personally on StarWars.com. Wong himself went to great lengths to attack Graham Kennedy's reputation some years earlier. At the same time, Wong openly encouraged others of his followers to make stealth attacks on other forums, publish or post the addresses of opponents, etc.

So what the hell did he expect in return at some point? The double-standard is amazing.
I'll go after you, your job, your reputation, and have my followers make threats of violence, but don't you DARE do the same to me!

I think it was a good thing for first Wayne and then Wong to drop out of the debates years ago before something really did happen.
-Mike

Haha, almost makes it look like the release of E2:ICS saved some lives by letting the steam whistle out.

[Mike DiCenso]

Except that Wong and especially Wayne got progressively worse after AOTC:ICS came out.
-Mike

[2046]

Except that Wong and especially Wayne got progressively worse after AOTC:ICS came out.
-Mike

Actually, I rather suspect it made some of that crowd better, in some ways. To summarize the below, it means that instead of being nuts against foes, they could just be dicks.

I realize that seems counterintuitive, but by and large the most dangerous nutjobs who are nutty because they are devoted to some certain Highest of High Truths™ !!!!oneshiftone are really nutty against you if you are really good at showing them why they're wrong. You make them doubt, and that makes them even angrier at you.

(Part of the reason the Muslim terrorists hated America for decades had less to do with any actions of America in the Middle East, but because America was a rich and powerful and free nation that wasn't Muslim. Present-day terrorists haven't gotten the memo that things have changed.)

With their cutesy-clever insertion of their nuttery into children's books, they felt they had gotten their beliefs into the realm of High Truth and, as such, they need not doubt anymore.

It would be like if, somewhere where Protestants and Catholics were in open conflict, Protestants somehow had a chance to edit the Bible (presupposing there was only one version here) in a non-Catholic fashion, something about not having a Papacy or somesuch. To them, it would remove their doubts about their cause, and almost certainly make them less psychotic in opposing their foes, because they would finally feel with certainty that they had the high ground . . . meaning that instead of being nuts against foes, they could just be dicks.

That's why their crazy 'yeah, yeah, post his home address!' behavior toward most any dedicated opponent, even newbies, was such a sad statement as to both the fragility of their belief system and their own sanity. But it makes sense that this would've tapered off after the ICS.

Of course, it wasn't long after that their main tenets of belief (e.g. the EU completism, the Death Star as DET) were falling before their eyes, but there was enough of a gap between the ICS and the really kick-butt Lucas quotes and Death Star novel that they were effectively out of the fight, save for a few of the truly loyal.

This is probably a poor framing of history overall with some big counterpoints waiting in the wings, but there's a nugget of truth to it, methinks.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Except that Wong and especially Wayne got progressively worse after AOTC:ICS came out.
-Mike

The essence of this story is that E2:ICS did sanctify their vision and beliefs. They had literally won a battle that meant a lot to them (way too much in fact). Their insecurity was largely put to rest as they just had to sing aloud their antiphons from the Book of Revelation & Firepower ad nauseam until your ears stopped bleeding.

They would not have to think and suffer anymore. Even if they would ever find themselves doubting (as Robert put it), there was that convenient majestic Book to fall back on, which would inspire them and bring faith and warmth to their troubled minds, hearts and pricks. After all, their glorious Tome was approved by the Ecclesiarchy, and as manifest zealots, soon they’d also claim it to be the holiest book of all scriptures to ever exist before the watchful eye of the Holocron. This alone was an awesome achievement to them, so they felt like they could leave the "debate", to collect themselves for other purposes. Only those who had invested much into the SW lore, emotionally or materialistically, and who had a thing for rhetoric, would stay for a while, pretending debating, largely for the taste of defending their Book. But this was no debate per se.

It also came with a supplementary bonus effect, reaching beyond that mere reality. See, like in any negotiation wherein you know you'll walk out with a fraction of your initial claim even if all goes well, the ICS had allowed them to preach a truth which was nothing like the prophets had spoken before.

Some debaters were outraged about how the highest firepower figures, notably defended by Wong, never broke the low gigaton barrier during the pre-Spacebattles days, only for Poe et al. to claim that they had always been considered extremely conservative estimations by the committee, albeit not publicly. Lo and behold, the greatest numbers ever brought to light were to rewrite history as always having been the only true ones. They were so large and mind boggling, so divine-creamy in scope, that even if the Book were to be lost, whatever would remain of it would still shape the future of SW fandom for eons, soiling the legacy of those miserable enough to ever believe in lowly icons and figures.

The only reason things seemed bad after ICS2 is that the wankers were soon spotted heading irate legions of fundies rushing out of the woods, cherry picking from their one Book all they needed to silence the opposition, for it was Absolute Truth and Ultimate Authority. LOL.

But on the flipside, this quasi religious shift largely masked the fact that it made their lives much easier and they needn’t stalk their enemies as their sophisms were now Word of Law. It made them win (by cheating), and that’s all they wanted. After all, The Greatest, Most Venerable and Ever Wise Master Wong-Shun-Hem always remained unambiguous about that:

“How you win is irrelevant. What matters is that you do. Such is the way of the hyena.”

(Or something along those lines).
Basically, to them, the game was over and what was annoying for the rest of the plebe was to have them rub it in for years after that. Once all of it collapsed for good, they didn’t have much energy left to bother defending their Book, and only the most radical elements would still find a motive for their one last silly Crusade (hunting down the infidel Traviss).

[Sothis]

Back in 2002 or 2003, a fellow contacted me and started sending samples of his utter takedown of StarDestroyer.Net, written in the same style and even as a response to that site's fictitious Imperial author "Jarren Korr", but instead written from the perspective of the Federation's shadow group Section 31 and one of its most fascinating characters, Sloan. The takedown was composed of a huge mass of Word documents, and it was agreed that I would help convert them to HTML and stylize them properly to serve as his own little sub-site to my own. A teaser of this project was posted back in March 2003.

Unfortunately, the guy was a total machine, and I was overwhelmed, even back then during my more prolific years. Eventually, it was decided that he would seek to make his own full site himself or with other assistance, though to my knowledge nothing ever came of it. I hated to see the work wasted, and ten years later I found that he'd been providing the private link to it elsewhere, as seen on this response page from "Darth Timon". (That's not meant in a bad way, it just means I don't feel bad posting it publicly.)

So, click on the Defiant and see a taste of what might have been.

At the risk of a bit of thread necromancy, I have no idea if Virus-X intentionally put his site out there, or if it was Google being clever and finding a reference out of nothing.

I would be most interested in knowing what other material he put together, though of course, whether you make that public is up to you (after all, it's his material).