In his latest video, he gives a very reasonable theory on just how much explosive power is in an "Isoton". Its not as high as we on the Trek side would prefer, but its supported by canon evidence. Its also not as low as the Wars side claims with their 64 megaton figure. It runs about 8 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Fok_RPeg4
Brian quantifies Isotons
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
That's a fairly good analysis, it uses canon examples (ignoring the yields derived from the tech manuals), and is fairly solid. Of course it isn't actually one of the higher level examples as described in the video when put next to things like DS9: "The Die is Cast" or other similar events. But neither is it one of the lower ones.
That being said, he did make one mistake.
He said that 30 Gt gave total destruction out to 800 km according to the calculator. However, that's the thermal 3rd degree burn radius (a couple hundred °C for a short time) and wouldn't be expected to do anything substantial to something like the Jem'hadar ship they were flying or anything else existing in space for that matter.
To get the destruction radius, using the calculator, out to 800 km would require something more around either 1,567.5 Gt or 29,680 Gt depending on if O'Brian was being literal in that everything will be destroyed. And even that last one will be a little low, as a starship is many times tougher than a modern building. An issue with this is the calculation is based on the existence of an atmosphere to transfer a shockwave. Of course they are in space so there is no atmosphere present, so the effects are more likely to be thermal in nature.
So to apply a kilojoule per m^2 (our sun does this to the Earth approximately every second) the yield would have to be 8.0425*10^15 J or 1.9222 Mt. Ignoring shields for a moment and using just the hull, which we know to be composed of tritanium and being able to withstand temperatures of thousands of degrees Celsius. Vaporizing a 1 m^2 section of iron which is 1 cm thick would require 5.9842*10^8 J. Which would require a yield of 4.8128*10^21 J or 1,150.2813 Gt. Now tritanium is many many times more difficult to vaporize or melt than iron, for starters ships can withstand many thousands of °C without issue. Furthermore type-II phasers, which can literally vaporize metal (as per Data in TNG: "The Vengeance Factor"), can do nothing to even melt tritanium. So we could expect the yield to be many times greater than even that.
Iron:
7.6 MJ/kg to vaporize
7.874 g/cm^3
Even with that fairly substantial mistake, I think the analysis was otherwise very well done.
That being said, he did make one mistake.
He said that 30 Gt gave total destruction out to 800 km according to the calculator. However, that's the thermal 3rd degree burn radius (a couple hundred °C for a short time) and wouldn't be expected to do anything substantial to something like the Jem'hadar ship they were flying or anything else existing in space for that matter.
To get the destruction radius, using the calculator, out to 800 km would require something more around either 1,567.5 Gt or 29,680 Gt depending on if O'Brian was being literal in that everything will be destroyed. And even that last one will be a little low, as a starship is many times tougher than a modern building. An issue with this is the calculation is based on the existence of an atmosphere to transfer a shockwave. Of course they are in space so there is no atmosphere present, so the effects are more likely to be thermal in nature.
So to apply a kilojoule per m^2 (our sun does this to the Earth approximately every second) the yield would have to be 8.0425*10^15 J or 1.9222 Mt. Ignoring shields for a moment and using just the hull, which we know to be composed of tritanium and being able to withstand temperatures of thousands of degrees Celsius. Vaporizing a 1 m^2 section of iron which is 1 cm thick would require 5.9842*10^8 J. Which would require a yield of 4.8128*10^21 J or 1,150.2813 Gt. Now tritanium is many many times more difficult to vaporize or melt than iron, for starters ships can withstand many thousands of °C without issue. Furthermore type-II phasers, which can literally vaporize metal (as per Data in TNG: "The Vengeance Factor"), can do nothing to even melt tritanium. So we could expect the yield to be many times greater than even that.
Iron:
7.6 MJ/kg to vaporize
7.874 g/cm^3
Even with that fairly substantial mistake, I think the analysis was otherwise very well done.
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Mr. Oragahn
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359
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
Tin Foil
This video is, for the most part, an attempt to counter my pointing out the flaw in his isotons argument. Brian starts off by saying how one can not compare against the hull as it is an unknown quantity, but this is exactly what his argument entails. It uses a reference intensity at a distance assuming that would be a threat to the ship, and then extrapolates back to the total energy needed to create that intensity at the 800 km radius. I did the exact same thing, just by picking a different low-ball reference point which would be undeniably weaker than the hull (i.e. 1 cm of iron). I calculated the intensity at 800 km needed to vaporize the iron, and then calculated the total energy release needed to generate that intensity at the stated distance. Which is the same idea that Brain used, I just went with a a more clear basis rather than the one assumed in the nuclear effects calculator (3rd degree burns)
Brian then claims that my calculation is invalid as we do not know the thermal strength of the hull. This is true but it's fairly clear that the hull is strong when compared to iron across many episodes, and much thicker than 1 cm. Brian calculated an intensity from his calculations of 47 MJ/m^2, oddly enough I got 15.6 MJ/m^3 from a 30 Gt blast at 800 km, but that isn't too important. He states that this is close to the radiant intensity at the surface of the sun, and because ships can not survive in the corona, they should not be expected to survive this level of intensity. However he again fails to take into account the far greater temperatures in the corona, averaging 1,000,000 K (or °C, it's big enough that the 273.15 doesn't really matter) to 2,000,000 K and reaching 20,000,000 K in the hotter zones.
Also he does mention DS9: "Shadows and Symbols" where a Bird of Prey is cruising around a star, but dismisses it as being inconsistent with TNG: "Dissent" and TNG: "Suspicions". Also he states that the BOP was having trouble and never got too close to the star, so it didn't matter anyway. Perhaps he forgot this bit of the episode. Or here which nicely shows just how far in the corona (and from the photosphere) the BOP is, while under attack. And the attack is the major problem for the ship, not the corona. Or there is TNG: "Relics" 1, 2, or TNG: "Redemption Pt II" 1, 2. And not to mention VOY: "Scientific Method" 1 in which Voyager flys directly between two pulsars which are generally far more intense than our sun, and after the shields fail the hull only begins to glow, no melty bits.
So agains his two example of a star's corona being an immediate no-go-zone I have four examples of starships continuing to function in them, without significant and immediate thermal threat to the hull. In VOY: "Scientific Method" there was a combination of thermal and mechanical stress and the intensity of the event was much greater than that of any others. Additionally I could heap on several examples in which probes and photon torpedoes have entered stars, but it isn't really necessary to make this point.
In short starship hulls (and not to mention shields) should easily handle an intensity of 15.6 MJ/m^2 or 47 MJ/m^2.
Brian points out that this (47 MJ/m^2) is equivalent to five phase pistols hitting a square meter of the hull at 10 MW for a second. He seems to intend to imply that because of this comparison the hull should buckle under that energy. However, at least to me, that isn't supposed to be a threat. No one is ever concerned that some guy is going to blast through the hull with a phaser rifle, (at which point the intensity would actually be much higher due to the smaller area of impact form a phaser beam) so how is this a good way of judging how strong a hull is? He berates my method for comparing iron to the unknown hull, and then he himself (doing the same thing earlier with the nuclear calculations) goes on to compare the unknown hull to the slightly-more-known phase pistols and then assume this would penetrate the hull in order to prove that level of energy would penetrate the hull.
Next Brian attempts to claim the the Jem'Hadar fighter was damaged, and wouldn't be in good enough shape to take what we would expect it to. First they weren't about to fly apart, so they weren't that bad off. And second we can contrast the damage they took for not clearing the blast zone of 800 km as seen here. There is a clear and visible change in the ship from not visibly damaged to heavily and visibly damaged. And they had gotten quite a distance away before the blast hit them. (Realistically the blast should have hit them instantly, but this is a TV show and a fictitious one at that.)
Another claim made is that they shouldn't know the resiliency of the ship. But they had it in space dock for a year and had been studying it, so there is no valid way to say they don't know enough to make a good guess. Even so, it is not going to be orders of magnitude weaker or stronger than a federation ship, so the statement of the danger zone is accurate even if not down to the meter.
Another claim made in the video is that only what O'Brian says is relevant.
Sisko: "Everything ready, Chief?"
O'Brien: "I've got eighty three empty canisters standing by, and one not so empty."
O'Brien: "Ninety isotons of enriched ultritium should take out the entire storage facility and everything else within eight hundred kilometers."
Sisko: "Which means we have to be nine hundred kilometres away before the bomb goes off."
Garak: "The other ship is leaving orbit."
So somehow Sisko stating the need to be more than 800 km distant is not relivant? It is pointing out the fact that even at 800 km the bomb is a threat, so they need to be further away to avoid taking damage.
Brian points to a claim I made on ASVS, about which he is correct. I, on an off hand guess, made a comparison of the energy needed to cause 3rd degree burns to that necessary to harm structural materials. I stated that at 30 Gt and 800 km distant a sheet of aluminum foil would survive, however that was incorrect.
Lastly Brian brings up my old argument with him over the grate in A New Hope. He states how I had claimed the energy he used in that scene was too high (I didn't. I claimed he ignored the lack of secondary effects, but didn't with phasers). And then goes to say how I am claiming this is too low. Clearly this is an attempt to discredit those (in this case me) who would try and counter his position by falsely describing them as dishonest for thinking a completely separate event is too high and that this, again completely separate, event is too low; as somehow this makes them dishonest. This is not an argument of fact, but an attack on a the person presenting a counter claim.
(Again, I never argued his grate energy was too high, only that he ignored where there should have been secondary effects but weren't, and then turned around to claim phasers were weak as they did not cause such secondary effects.)
This video is, for the most part, an attempt to counter my pointing out the flaw in his isotons argument. Brian starts off by saying how one can not compare against the hull as it is an unknown quantity, but this is exactly what his argument entails. It uses a reference intensity at a distance assuming that would be a threat to the ship, and then extrapolates back to the total energy needed to create that intensity at the 800 km radius. I did the exact same thing, just by picking a different low-ball reference point which would be undeniably weaker than the hull (i.e. 1 cm of iron). I calculated the intensity at 800 km needed to vaporize the iron, and then calculated the total energy release needed to generate that intensity at the stated distance. Which is the same idea that Brain used, I just went with a a more clear basis rather than the one assumed in the nuclear effects calculator (3rd degree burns)
Brian then claims that my calculation is invalid as we do not know the thermal strength of the hull. This is true but it's fairly clear that the hull is strong when compared to iron across many episodes, and much thicker than 1 cm. Brian calculated an intensity from his calculations of 47 MJ/m^2, oddly enough I got 15.6 MJ/m^3 from a 30 Gt blast at 800 km, but that isn't too important. He states that this is close to the radiant intensity at the surface of the sun, and because ships can not survive in the corona, they should not be expected to survive this level of intensity. However he again fails to take into account the far greater temperatures in the corona, averaging 1,000,000 K (or °C, it's big enough that the 273.15 doesn't really matter) to 2,000,000 K and reaching 20,000,000 K in the hotter zones.
Also he does mention DS9: "Shadows and Symbols" where a Bird of Prey is cruising around a star, but dismisses it as being inconsistent with TNG: "Dissent" and TNG: "Suspicions". Also he states that the BOP was having trouble and never got too close to the star, so it didn't matter anyway. Perhaps he forgot this bit of the episode. Or here which nicely shows just how far in the corona (and from the photosphere) the BOP is, while under attack. And the attack is the major problem for the ship, not the corona. Or there is TNG: "Relics" 1, 2, or TNG: "Redemption Pt II" 1, 2. And not to mention VOY: "Scientific Method" 1 in which Voyager flys directly between two pulsars which are generally far more intense than our sun, and after the shields fail the hull only begins to glow, no melty bits.
So agains his two example of a star's corona being an immediate no-go-zone I have four examples of starships continuing to function in them, without significant and immediate thermal threat to the hull. In VOY: "Scientific Method" there was a combination of thermal and mechanical stress and the intensity of the event was much greater than that of any others. Additionally I could heap on several examples in which probes and photon torpedoes have entered stars, but it isn't really necessary to make this point.
In short starship hulls (and not to mention shields) should easily handle an intensity of 15.6 MJ/m^2 or 47 MJ/m^2.
Brian points out that this (47 MJ/m^2) is equivalent to five phase pistols hitting a square meter of the hull at 10 MW for a second. He seems to intend to imply that because of this comparison the hull should buckle under that energy. However, at least to me, that isn't supposed to be a threat. No one is ever concerned that some guy is going to blast through the hull with a phaser rifle, (at which point the intensity would actually be much higher due to the smaller area of impact form a phaser beam) so how is this a good way of judging how strong a hull is? He berates my method for comparing iron to the unknown hull, and then he himself (doing the same thing earlier with the nuclear calculations) goes on to compare the unknown hull to the slightly-more-known phase pistols and then assume this would penetrate the hull in order to prove that level of energy would penetrate the hull.
Next Brian attempts to claim the the Jem'Hadar fighter was damaged, and wouldn't be in good enough shape to take what we would expect it to. First they weren't about to fly apart, so they weren't that bad off. And second we can contrast the damage they took for not clearing the blast zone of 800 km as seen here. There is a clear and visible change in the ship from not visibly damaged to heavily and visibly damaged. And they had gotten quite a distance away before the blast hit them. (Realistically the blast should have hit them instantly, but this is a TV show and a fictitious one at that.)
Another claim made is that they shouldn't know the resiliency of the ship. But they had it in space dock for a year and had been studying it, so there is no valid way to say they don't know enough to make a good guess. Even so, it is not going to be orders of magnitude weaker or stronger than a federation ship, so the statement of the danger zone is accurate even if not down to the meter.
Another claim made in the video is that only what O'Brian says is relevant.
Sisko: "Everything ready, Chief?"
O'Brien: "I've got eighty three empty canisters standing by, and one not so empty."
O'Brien: "Ninety isotons of enriched ultritium should take out the entire storage facility and everything else within eight hundred kilometers."
Sisko: "Which means we have to be nine hundred kilometres away before the bomb goes off."
Garak: "The other ship is leaving orbit."
So somehow Sisko stating the need to be more than 800 km distant is not relivant? It is pointing out the fact that even at 800 km the bomb is a threat, so they need to be further away to avoid taking damage.
Brian points to a claim I made on ASVS, about which he is correct. I, on an off hand guess, made a comparison of the energy needed to cause 3rd degree burns to that necessary to harm structural materials. I stated that at 30 Gt and 800 km distant a sheet of aluminum foil would survive, however that was incorrect.
Lastly Brian brings up my old argument with him over the grate in A New Hope. He states how I had claimed the energy he used in that scene was too high (I didn't. I claimed he ignored the lack of secondary effects, but didn't with phasers). And then goes to say how I am claiming this is too low. Clearly this is an attempt to discredit those (in this case me) who would try and counter his position by falsely describing them as dishonest for thinking a completely separate event is too high and that this, again completely separate, event is too low; as somehow this makes them dishonest. This is not an argument of fact, but an attack on a the person presenting a counter claim.
(Again, I never argued his grate energy was too high, only that he ignored where there should have been secondary effects but weren't, and then turned around to claim phasers were weak as they did not cause such secondary effects.)
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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
Why does no one take into account the real true first explosions, caused by the explosives?359 wrote: This video is, for the most part, an attempt to counter my pointing out the flaw in his isotons argument. Brian starts off by saying how one can not compare against the hull as it is an unknown quantity, but this is exactly what his argument entails. It uses a reference intensity at a distance assuming that would be a threat to the ship, and then extrapolates back to the total energy needed to create that intensity at the 800 km radius. I did the exact same thing, just by picking a different low-ball reference point which would be undeniably weaker than the hull (i.e. 1 cm of iron). I calculated the intensity at 800 km needed to vaporize the iron, and then calculated the total energy release needed to generate that intensity at the stated distance. Which is the same idea that Brain used, I just went with a a more clear basis rather than the one assumed in the nuclear effects calculator (3rd degree burns)
Temps in coronas mean diddly squat as density in a corona is very, very low.Brian then claims that my calculation is invalid as we do not know the thermal strength of the hull. This is true but it's fairly clear that the hull is strong when compared to iron across many episodes, and much thicker than 1 cm. Brian calculated an intensity from his calculations of 47 MJ/m^2, oddly enough I got 15.6 MJ/m^3 from a 30 Gt blast at 800 km, but that isn't too important. He states that this is close to the radiant intensity at the surface of the sun, and because ships can not survive in the corona, they should not be expected to survive this level of intensity. However he again fails to take into account the far greater temperatures in the corona, averaging 1,000,000 K (or °C, it's big enough that the 273.15 doesn't really matter) to 2,000,000 K and reaching 20,000,000 K in the hotter zones.
Basically, for lots of hurt, you need both high temp and lots of matter.
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Lucky
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
Corona can get very dense in Star Trek. It is actually an in-universe phenomenon that they make note of in one episode.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Temps in coronas mean diddly squat as density in a corona is very, very low.
Basically, for lots of hurt, you need both high temp and lots of matter.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons062.jpgFranchise: Star Trek Series: The next Generation Season: Episode: Title: Suspicions wrote: CHRISTOPHER: That star has a superdense corona. The shuttle would be subjected to particularly intense radiation. Perhaps it would be wise to choose a star of lesser magnitude.
T'PAN: I agree. My own research into solar energy transfer suggests that Vaytan's corona is extremely unstable.
REYGA: What better way to test my invention? I'm not concerned. The shield will hold.
-----
REYGA: The metaphasic shielding has begun to form.
DATA: External temperature is zero point nine million Kelvins and rising. Radiation levels are nearing ten thousand rads.
REYGA: That should have no effect on the shuttle cabin.
CRUSHER: That's right. Temperature in the cabin is twenty one degrees Celsius and the radiation levels are normal.
JO'BRIL [on viewscreen]: Wait. I'm reading elevated neutrino levels in the cabin.
REYGA: Those are from the subspace field that's encapsulating the shuttle. The levels are well within acceptable parameters.
DATA: Outside temperature is rising rapidly. One point seven million Kelvins.
CRUSHER: Temperature is still twenty one degrees and the shield is holding.
JO'BRIL [on viewscreen]: Three hundred and fifty thousand kilometres and closing. This is incredible. I am actually flying into a star.
PICARD: Congratulations, Doctor. This is an amazing achievement.
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http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... two320.jpgFranchise: Star Trek Series: The next Generation Season: Episode: Title: Descent Part 2 wrote: CRUSHER: If we had metaphasic shielding, we could enter the sun's corona but the Borg ship wouldn't be able to follow. Can you bring the programme online?
BARNABY: I can, but we have no way of knowing if the shields will hold.
TAITT: Sir, hull temperature is rising. Now at twelve thousand degrees C. Radiation level nearing ten thousand rads.
(weapons hit)
CRUSHER: Report.
TAITT: Shields at sixty two percent.
CRUSHER: Lieutenant, activate the metaphasic programme. It's our best shot.
BARNABY: Aye, sir.
TAITT: Hull temperature is critical. We can't withstand this heat much longer.
BARNABY: Programme is online. Engaging metaphasic shield now.
TAITT: Hull temperature dropping. Down to seven thousand degrees.
CRUSHER: Maintain course.
BARNABY: The Borg ship has broken off pursuit.
CRUSHER: All stop.
TAITT: Sir, the Borg ship is taking up position relative to ours. They're going to wait for us to come out.
CRUSHER: The question is, how long can we survive in here?
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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
Ok, so THAT star had a superdense corona. It's all relative to usual densities though, so we don't know how dense it was. Point being that if we are to take visuals at face value, we can still easily see through said corona and we have a very nice view of the shuttle. Needless to say, we are nowhere near the densities of atmospheric pressure at ground level on Earth, heated up by a nuke going off.Lucky wrote:Corona can get very dense in Star Trek. It is actually an in-universe phenomenon that they make note of in one episode.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Temps in coronas mean diddly squat as density in a corona is very, very low.
Basically, for lots of hurt, you need both high temp and lots of matter.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ons062.jpgFranchise: Star Trek Series: The next Generation Season: Episode: Title: Suspicions wrote: CHRISTOPHER: That star has a superdense corona. The shuttle would be subjected to particularly intense radiation. Perhaps it would be wise to choose a star of lesser magnitude.
T'PAN: I agree. My own research into solar energy transfer suggests that Vaytan's corona is extremely unstable.
REYGA: What better way to test my invention? I'm not concerned. The shield will hold.
-----
REYGA: The metaphasic shielding has begun to form.
DATA: External temperature is zero point nine million Kelvins and rising. Radiation levels are nearing ten thousand rads.
REYGA: That should have no effect on the shuttle cabin.
CRUSHER: That's right. Temperature in the cabin is twenty one degrees Celsius and the radiation levels are normal.
JO'BRIL [on viewscreen]: Wait. I'm reading elevated neutrino levels in the cabin.
REYGA: Those are from the subspace field that's encapsulating the shuttle. The levels are well within acceptable parameters.
DATA: Outside temperature is rising rapidly. One point seven million Kelvins.
CRUSHER: Temperature is still twenty one degrees and the shield is holding.
JO'BRIL [on viewscreen]: Three hundred and fifty thousand kilometres and closing. This is incredible. I am actually flying into a star.
PICARD: Congratulations, Doctor. This is an amazing achievement.
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I can consider a corona to be highly unstable when its magnetic fields are powerful and perhaps snapping regularly, along with the star releasing a large amount of flares like a fountain, which would explain the large quantity of matter lingering in the corona. However we don't see much of such activity, nor such density.
But perhaps we can set visuals aside here. Although if we do so, we just can't get any firm value on the density.
In this scenario, they seem to push the metaphasic shielding to its limits. Perhaps there had been a former test to see how it would function under normal coronal densities?
Aren't trek ships usually a bit at pain under normal conditions very near a star?
Random musing: a subspace field releases neutrinos. Either we're talking about the neutrinos released by a star (most likely interpretation considering how it's a trademark of nuclear fusion), or eventually (and much less likely but worth raising) that's implying a relation between the capacity to cope with greater energies and some kind of neutrino production (which would remind us of the Saxtonian shield model, although somewhat better since the neutrinos' source is the field itself, not a piece of hardware).
Can we assume that said field is the metaphasic shield, or is there something else going on?
There's no confirmation that the corona is superdense.http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... two320.jpgFranchise: Star Trek Series: The next Generation Season: Episode: Title: Descent Part 2 wrote: CRUSHER: If we had metaphasic shielding, we could enter the sun's corona but the Borg ship wouldn't be able to follow. Can you bring the programme online?
BARNABY: I can, but we have no way of knowing if the shields will hold.
TAITT: Sir, hull temperature is rising. Now at twelve thousand degrees C. Radiation level nearing ten thousand rads.
(weapons hit)
CRUSHER: Report.
TAITT: Shields at sixty two percent.
CRUSHER: Lieutenant, activate the metaphasic programme. It's our best shot.
BARNABY: Aye, sir.
TAITT: Hull temperature is critical. We can't withstand this heat much longer.
BARNABY: Programme is online. Engaging metaphasic shield now.
TAITT: Hull temperature dropping. Down to seven thousand degrees.
CRUSHER: Maintain course.
BARNABY: The Borg ship has broken off pursuit.
CRUSHER: All stop.
TAITT: Sir, the Borg ship is taking up position relative to ours. They're going to wait for us to come out.
CRUSHER: The question is, how long can we survive in here?
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Mike DiCenso
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
Actually, see the old ST vs Eldar & Tau thread from a couple of years ago. We addressed a lot of these points about the usual nature of the Descent star, including the fact that the E-D at various points flies through what appear to be solar flares, not just the stellar corona.
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Lucky
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
The superdense corona in Suspicions was as hard to see through a pea soup fog, and the shuttle Dr.Crusher was in isn't much larger then a Dodge Caravan. The bottom of the shuttle's hull was pointed at the star.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Ok, so THAT star had a superdense corona. It's all relative to usual densities though, so we don't know how dense it was. Point being that if we are to take visuals at face value, we can still easily see through said corona and we have a very nice view of the shuttle. Needless to say, we are nowhere near the densities of atmospheric pressure at ground level on Earth, heated up by a nuke going off.
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Except the corona in Suspicions is insanely dense. We see the shuttle leaving a wake or vapor trail in it as the shuttle travels through it. You're way to hung up on what a normal corona is like.Mr. Oragahn wrote: I can consider a corona to be highly unstable when its magnetic fields are powerful and perhaps snapping regularly, along with the star releasing a large amount of flares like a fountain, which would explain the large quantity of matter lingering in the corona. However we don't see much of such activity, nor such density.
That said,, stars aren't simply made of proton, neutrons and electrons, and I've theorized that induction heating could be the primary method of heating the hull in both Suspicions and Descent part 2.
But in the case of Descent part 2 and Suspicions the visuals are important as stars in Star Trek are normally depicted to have far more mundane coronas. To get something remotely like what we see in Suspicions you need to dive to the photosphere which most starships can do without a problem..Mr. Oragahn wrote: But perhaps we can set visuals aside here. Although if we do so, we just can't get any firm value on the density.
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They picked the star because it was one of the most extreme stars they knew of.Mr. Oragahn wrote: In this scenario, they seem to push the metaphasic shielding to its limits. Perhaps there had been a former test to see how it would function under normal coronal densities?
Aren't trek ships usually a bit at pain under normal conditions very near a star?
T'PAN: I agree. My own research into solar energy transfer suggests that Vaytan's corona is extremely unstable.
REYGA: What better way to test my invention? I'm not concerned. The shield will hold.
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We know from Redemption part 2 that star ships can dive to the photosphere of normal stars, and the first we hear of meta phasic shielding is in season 6
Redemption Part 2 Season 5
Suspicions Season 6
Descent part 2 Season 7
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I'm not sure why anyone would want to go star diving even if their ships can handle it? I have a hard time picturing a reason to take a star ship into a star.
Hitting things while at warp is bad
REYGA: The metaphasic shielding has begun to form.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Random musing: a subspace field releases neutrinos. Either we're talking about the neutrinos released by a star (most likely interpretation considering how it's a trademark of nuclear fusion), or eventually (and much less likely but worth raising) that's implying a relation between the capacity to cope with greater energies and some kind of neutrino production (which would remind us of the Saxtonian shield model, although somewhat better since the neutrinos' source is the field itself, not a piece of hardware).
Can we assume that said field is the metaphasic shield, or is there something else going on?
DATA: External temperature is zero point nine million Kelvins and rising. Radiation levels are nearing ten thousand rads.
REYGA: That should have no effect on the shuttle cabin.
CRUSHER: That's right. Temperature in the cabin is twenty one degrees Celsius and the radiation levels are normal.
JO'BRIL [on viewscreen]: Wait. I'm reading elevated neutrino levels in the cabin.
REYGA: Those are from the subspace field that's encapsulating the shuttle. The levels are well within acceptable parameters.
DATA: Outside temperature is rising rapidly. One point seven million Kelvins.
CRUSHER: Temperature is still twenty one degrees and the shield is holding.
It wasn't the star. Something about the meta phasic shielding is caused the neutrino levels to rise.
We know the star's corona was abnormal do to the fact that starships have no trouble diving to the photosphere in normal stars.Mr. Oragahn wrote: There's no confirmation that the corona is superdense.
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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
For the star in Suspicions, then we'd have to consider that a significant amount of the matter released by the star is not visible.Lucky wrote:The superdense corona in Suspicions was as hard to see through a pea soup fog, and the shuttle Dr.Crusher was in isn't much larger then a Dodge Caravan. The bottom of the shuttle's hull was pointed at the star.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Ok, so THAT star had a superdense corona. It's all relative to usual densities though, so we don't know how dense it was. Point being that if we are to take visuals at face value, we can still easily see through said corona and we have a very nice view of the shuttle. Needless to say, we are nowhere near the densities of atmospheric pressure at ground level on Earth, heated up by a nuke going off.
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Except the corona in Suspicions is insanely dense. We see the shuttle leaving a wake or vapor trail in it as the shuttle travels through it. You're way to hung up on what a normal corona is like.Mr. Oragahn wrote: I can consider a corona to be highly unstable when its magnetic fields are powerful and perhaps snapping regularly, along with the star releasing a large amount of flares like a fountain, which would explain the large quantity of matter lingering in the corona. However we don't see much of such activity, nor such density.
That said,, stars aren't simply made of proton, neutrons and electrons, and I've theorized that induction heating could be the primary method of heating the hull in both Suspicions and Descent part 2.
Perhaps the vapour trail has more to do with the hull itself losing integrity?
The ship we see is precisely flying way above the photosphere.But in the case of Descent part 2 and Suspicions the visuals are important as stars in Star Trek are normally depicted to have far more mundane coronas. To get something remotely like what we see in Suspicions you need to dive to the photosphere which most starships can do without a problem..Mr. Oragahn wrote: But perhaps we can set visuals aside here. Although if we do so, we just can't get any firm value on the density.
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I legitmately ask what is the proof that this ship we see didn't have problems?
I don't know the episode.
Duh, to test a new shielding system. Every improvement on a shielding system would be worth a try with well known parameters. Stars would be perfect for that.They picked the star because it was one of the most extreme stars they knew of.Mr. Oragahn wrote: In this scenario, they seem to push the metaphasic shielding to its limits. Perhaps there had been a former test to see how it would function under normal coronal densities?
Aren't trek ships usually a bit at pain under normal conditions very near a star?
T'PAN: I agree. My own research into solar energy transfer suggests that Vaytan's corona is extremely unstable.
REYGA: What better way to test my invention? I'm not concerned. The shield will hold.
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We know from Redemption part 2 that star ships can dive to the photosphere of normal stars, and the first we hear of meta phasic shielding is in season 6
Redemption Part 2 Season 5
Suspicions Season 6
Descent part 2 Season 7
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I'm not sure why anyone would want to go star diving even if their ships can handle it? I have a hard time picturing a reason to take a star ship into a star.
Not in atmospheres though.Hitting things while at warp is bad
Occam's Razor says it's the star. The shield starts to fail a bit, neutrino pass through (like they pass through lots of stuff, neutrinos also react to nuclear force).It wasn't the star. Something about the meta phasic shielding is caused the neutrino levels to rise.
I'm waiting for the proof of that for the moment. Not to say that a greater average density isn't the sole element of danger. Snapping magnetic fields which can channel solar flares make a better candidate, since they're a natural phenomenon.We know the star's corona was abnormal do to the fact that starships have no trouble diving to the photosphere in normal stars.Mr. Oragahn wrote: There's no confirmation that the corona is superdense.
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
Except that that is not in evidence in either case, otherwise no one would need to mention that the corona is not only "super dense", but also "unstable". And neither the dialog nor the visuals support any sort of structural integrity failure. This is not an ordinary star, and we know almost nothing else about it's nature, such as it being possibly a giant or supergiant star. But either way, the wake the shuttle is leaving is clearly the displaced corona matter. You can see it is highly dense in the visuals.Mr. Oragahn wrote:For the star in Suspicions, then we'd have to consider that a significant amount of the matter released by the star is not visible.
Perhaps the vapour trail has more to do with the hull itself losing integrity?
Except nothing is stated or shown that indicated that in dialog or visuals.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Occam's Razor says it's the star. The shield starts to fail a bit, neutrino pass through (like they pass through lots of stuff, neutrinos also react to nuclear force).
Proof? You've participated on well enough threads on SFJN to know that there are plenty of examples of starships flying all the way down to skim the photospheres of stars. TNG's "Redemption, Part 2" and DS9's "Shadows and Symbols" are two prime examples of this, and TNG's "Relics" has the E-D sitting just 150,000 km above a G-type star and with heavily damaged shields and on minimal power while not taking any damage, just being threatened in three hours time as the solar flares and intensity grow (we also see the E-D flying through a flare later on as well). And in the thread I linked to earlier in this one, both you and I come to agreement that there's something very off about the star in "Descent, Part 2".Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm waiting for the proof of that for the moment. Not to say that a greater average density isn't the sole element of danger. Snapping magnetic fields which can channel solar flares make a better candidate, since they're a natural phenomenon.
If that isn't enough, Voyager in "Parallax" flies close the event horizon of a black hole, and later on in "Scientific Method" flies between two pulsars.
-Mike
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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
In reality, we'd have to determine what kind of density is required to make the kelvin-based temperatures relevant and dangerous, and how would this look like.Mike DiCenso wrote: Except that that is not in evidence in either case, otherwise no one would need to mention that the corona is not only "super dense", but also "unstable". And neither the dialog nor the visuals support any sort of structural integrity failure. This is not an ordinary star, and we know almost nothing else about it's nature, such as it being possibly a giant or supergiant star. But either way, the wake the shuttle is leaving is clearly the displaced corona matter. You can see it is highly dense in the visuals.
Since, perhaps, a fog like haze is more than enough in the end when you speak of millions of kelvins.
Any calculation done on that? Didn't Wong run some of them?
Gravity isn't stated in the show either yet you don't dispute that people walking on a planet are subjected to it.Except nothing is stated or shown that indicated that in dialog or visuals.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Occam's Razor says it's the star. The shield starts to fail a bit, neutrino pass through (like they pass through lots of stuff, neutrinos also react to nuclear force).
Same goes with neutrinos and stars.
Skimming is not being inside.Proof? You've participated on well enough threads on SFJN to know that there are plenty of examples of starships flying all the way down to skim the photospheres of stars.Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm waiting for the proof of that for the moment. Not to say that a greater average density isn't the sole element of danger. Snapping magnetic fields which can channel solar flares make a better candidate, since they're a natural phenomenon.
The star of Descent being fishy isn't proof of normal conditions of ships being crazy close to stars.TNG's "Redemption, Part 2" and DS9's "Shadows and Symbols" are two prime examples of this, and TNG's "Relics" has the E-D sitting just 150,000 km above a G-type star and with heavily damaged shields and on minimal power while not taking any damage, just being threatened in three hours time as the solar flares and intensity grow (we also see the E-D flying through a flare later on as well). And in the thread I linked to earlier in this one, both you and I come to agreement that there's something very off about the star in "Descent, Part 2".
AS for the rest I'll try to find more info. I remember a case of a Borg ship being blasted by a warp-initiated flare I think, and another case of some Klingon ship coming close to the star.
Altitude and luminosity are of importance, although the redish orangeness of some of them iirc doesn't bode well for calcs.
As for the Relics case of the E-D with shields failing, where shields raised over the windows? Because with flikery shields, the last thing you'd want is exposing the crew to EMR by simply standing close to transparent windows.
And quantifications were produced?If that isn't enough, Voyager in "Parallax" flies close the event horizon of a black hole, and later on in "Scientific Method" flies between two pulsars.
-Mike
For the blackhole, did it have an accretion disk, how big was it?
In Scientific Method, what were the properties of those two pulsars? Did Voyager ever cross their respective magnetic axises?
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Mike DiCenso
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
We don't know that and no exact numbers are ever stated, but it was enough that the shuttle plowed through the corona and left a definite, roiling wake behind it. But whatever else, Dr. Reyga's choice to use the star was precisely because it was a real challenge, it was a not a normal star in any way shape or form, and would for all intents and purposes prove that metaphasic shields work.Mr. Oragahn wrote:In reality, we'd have to determine what kind of density is required to make the kelvin-based temperatures relevant and dangerous, and how would this look like.
Since, perhaps, a fog like haze is more than enough in the end when you speak of millions of kelvins.
Any calculation done on that? Didn't Wong run some of them?
As for Wong, he just assumed a normal, stable G-type star in all cases.
Um, no. That's not how it works. You have to prove that the shields were leaking or that there was something going on. No one said the shields were leaking and Reyga said what was happening was normal, but nothing is said that indicates that it is leaking or a unique metaphasic shield generated phenomena.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Gravity isn't stated in the show either yet you don't dispute that people walking on a planet are subjected to it.
Same goes with neutrinos and stars.
It is an issue. The star's light intensity is far more on the planet than what we would expect, and the 12,000 degree C temperature on the hull of the E-D is very abnormal to say the least, if the corona density is any like Sol's. Not too mention, you damn well know from the visuals that the E-D is shown flying through something, either a flare or very dense corona.Mr. Oragahn wrote:The star of Descent being fishy isn't proof of normal conditions of ships being crazy close to stars.
AS for the rest I'll try to find more info. I remember a case of a Borg ship being blasted by a warp-initiated flare I think, and another case of some Klingon ship coming close to the star.
Altitude and luminosity are of importance, although the redish orangeness of some of them iirc doesn't bode well for calcs.
The black hole shown hear seems to have some sort of an accretion disk based on the visuals, and certainly this thing can't be any less than 4-5 solar masses, otherwise it's not a natural phenomena, and then you have to prove that it's not (i.e. a Romulan quantum singularity or something artifical).Mr. Oragahn wrote:And quantifications were produced?
For the blackhole, did it have an accretion disk, how big was it?
In Scientific Method, what were the properties of those two pulsars? Did Voyager ever cross their respective magnetic axises?
We don't ever hear the exact properties, but we have a pretty good idea and we have visuals showing the ship flying between the two pulsars:
Pulsars tend to have energy outputs many thousands of times greater than our own Sun. What you see here is no mean feat by Voyager. Considering that a pulsar can have up to 100,000 times our Sun's energy output, it really puts it into perspective as I showed in the "The Enterprise-D and the Lonka Pulsar" thread some years ago. When you take these to the higher estimates, it really gets scary.
-Mike
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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
Ok let's forget Wong's dishonesty for a moment here. As for the rest it's too complicated for me so if no one has given figures, then too bad.Mike DiCenso wrote:We don't know that and no exact numbers are ever stated, but it was enough that the shuttle plowed through the corona and left a definite, roiling wake behind it. But whatever else, Dr. Reyga's choice to use the star was precisely because it was a real challenge, it was a not a normal star in any way shape or form, and would for all intents and purposes prove that metaphasic shields work.
As for Wong, he just assumed a normal, stable G-type star in all cases.
The shield protects against the star's emission of particles. Neutrinos are part of the deal.Um, no. That's not how it works. You have to prove that the shields were leaking or that there was something going on. No one said the shields were leaking and Reyga said what was happening was normal, but nothing is said that indicates that it is leaking or a unique metaphasic shield generated phenomena.
Why claim that the neutrinos are generated by the shield itself when we know that the ship is sitting next to a giant neutrino ejector?
No need to look any further.
If the star is unstable and ejecting lots of materials, then you've got your explanation. Flares carry large amounts of dense matter at impressive speeds. They create conditions totally different to what you get in normal coronal zones.It is an issue. The star's light intensity is far more on the planet than what we would expect, and the 12,000 degree C temperature on the hull of the E-D is very abnormal to say the least, if the corona density is any like Sol's. Not too mention, you damn well know from the visuals that the E-D is shown flying through something, either a flare or very dense corona.Mr. Oragahn wrote:The star of Descent being fishy isn't proof of normal conditions of ships being crazy close to stars.
AS for the rest I'll try to find more info. I remember a case of a Borg ship being blasted by a warp-initiated flare I think, and another case of some Klingon ship coming close to the star.
Altitude and luminosity are of importance, although the redish orangeness of some of them iirc doesn't bode well for calcs.
Perhaps we don't have to claim something fishy about the star, but just that's it over active.
Other than that, ships being at pain in proximity of over active stars still doesn't tell a thing about more regular conditions.
Doesn't say much. Wasn't the NX-01 shown to fly through an accretion disk full of rocks in ENT?The black hole shown hear seems to have some sort of an accretion disk based on the visuals, and certainly this thing can't be any less than 4-5 solar masses, otherwise it's not a natural phenomena, and then you have to prove that it's not (i.e. a Romulan quantum singularity or something artifical).
Without knowing the exact properties, we cannot assess a proper rate of danger. Unless you have figures and some solid evidence, of course.
Could you please cite your sources and explain how that energy is radiated please? I'm seeing the beams in the pictures. Is that all?We don't ever hear the exact properties, but we have a pretty good idea and we have visuals showing the ship flying between the two pulsars:
Pulsars tend to have energy outputs many thousands of times greater than our own Sun. What you see here is no mean feat by Voyager. Considering that a pulsar can have up to 100,000 times our Sun's energy output, it really puts it into perspective as I showed in the "The Enterprise-D and the Lonka Pulsar" thread some years ago. When you take these to the higher estimates, it really gets scary.
-Mike
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Mike DiCenso
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Re: Brian quantifies Isotons
For a point of comparison our Sun's corona is has a density about 0.0000000001 times that of the Earth's sea-level atmosphere. That's so tenuous that it would not even be visible, but for the high temperature making it glow. But how much is this other star's super dense corona? Enough that a shuttle left a visible wake while flying through it. But whatever else, the point is made that this is not a normal star and therefore any calculations are going to be on the lower end of such estimates.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Ok let's forget Wong's dishonesty for a moment here. As for the rest it's too complicated for me so if no one has given figures, then too bad.
Except that there is plenty of precedence for Trek tech generating neutrinos. Just read through the listing here at Memory Alpha. Often times this occurs quite incidentally.Mr. Oragahn wrote:The shield protects against the star's emission of particles. Neutrinos are part of the deal. Why claim that the neutrinos are generated by the shield itself when we know that the ship is sitting next to a giant neutrino ejector?
No need to look any further.
Overactive is still an off-normal condition. We have to consider based on prior precedence that this is not a normal star since the G-type star in "Relics" did not heat up the E-D's hull to 12,000 degree Celsius in a matter of seconds. Hell, it didn't raise it up that much even after minutes or perhaps hours. On top of that, a battle damaged BoP in "Redemption, Part 2" swoops down to the photosphere of a star and doesn't get suffer like that. The Constitution-class Enterprise never had too much trouble when it did a sling shot around the Sun in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", neither did the BoP in "Star Trek: The Voyage Home", which was canonically shown to be a very close flyby for the time-travel sling shot maneuver to work. In DS9's "By Inferno's Light", a runabout and the Defiant get very close to the Bajoran sun, which by all accounts is a noramal G-type star as seen here:Mr. Oragahn wrote:If the star is unstable and ejecting lots of materials, then you've got your explanation. Flares carry large amounts of dense matter at impressive speeds. They create conditions totally different to what you get in normal coronal zones.
Perhaps we don't have to claim something fishy about the star, but just that's it over active.
Other than that, ships being at pain in proximity of over active stars still doesn't tell a thing about more regular conditions.
So let's keep all this in perspective. These ships rarely suffer too much, unless the star is abnormal in some way.
That just means that Star Trek ships are incredibly tough, even very primitive ones. Black holes are a fairly well understood phenomena, and we know what their lower limits are, so we can at least derive a minimum from it, just like we can from neutron stars and pulsars.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Doesn't say much. Wasn't the NX-01 shown to fly through an accretion disk full of rocks in ENT? Without knowing the exact properties, we cannot assess a proper rate of danger. Unless you have figures and some solid evidence, of course.
Could you please be bothered to click on the links I provide. It seems at this point that you are deliberately going out of your way to handwave away all evidence provided. But I'll help you out by providing more: https://www.google.com/#q=pulsar+100%2C ... l+than+sunMr. Oragahn wrote:Could you please cite your sources and explain how that energy is radiated please? I'm seeing the beams in the pictures. Is that all?
-Mike