Standard Tau Tech VS standard Imperium tech

[Lucky]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... au.250656/

The thread starts with a silly "what if", and then degrades into a Tau standard technology VS Imperium of Man standard technology. I can't understand why Hammies have such a problem with the idea that the human faction does not have the best toys as standard, and is so backwards that it is losing technological knowledge? It almost sounds like the Imperium fans think rare is a synonym of common towards the end of the thread. Any ideas as to why this is?

[Picard]

Because they like to wank Imperium? It's human-supremacist fascist empire, so it does have appeal with some there.

[Lucky]

Because they like to wank Imperium? It's human-supremacist fascist empire, so it does have appeal with some there.

The entire character of the Imperium is that it is decaying, and backwards. It was once great, but is in decline, and in need of serious reforms. The God Emperor on the golden thrown is a perfectly symbolic of the health of the Imperium of man. It is basically slowly dying.

The Imperium of Man is so backwards they drive their land raiders in reverse. They are their greatest enemy.

If you want a competent/sane IOM you need to create something like the Knights Inductor

[Mr. Oragahn]

Hammies with a huge pro-IoM bias can't really stand the Tau because they're what appeals to the mecha/japanese market niche inside 40K and got the shiny stuff. In some novels, they're even given victories despite all odds it seems, which tends to piss off Tau-skeptics even more to the point of turning them into staunch anti-Tau people.
It is true that many hammies largely miss the point of the IoM being in a massive state of decay. It's not going to be get any better with the approaching hivefleets and the awakening of several Tomb Lords in space (even if the Nucrons are nerfed in some spots compared to the original ones).

[Lucky]

Hammies with a huge pro-IoM bias can't really stand the Tau because they're what appeals to the mecha/japanese market niche inside 40K and got the shiny stuff.

I'm pretty sure the Eldar are targeted towards anime fans.

Tau seem targeted more towards someone who doesn't want grim stupid, or someone who wants a pseudo modern/pseudo future army to me.

In some novels, they're even given victories despite all odds it seems, which tends to piss off Tau-skeptics even more to the point of turning them into staunch anti-Tau people.

I don't consider the novels to be reliable sources, too much flowery language. I'd use codexes as the source of choice.

It's actually acknowledged by the Tau in their own codex that the reason they were able to take so many planets from the IOM was because the IOM had to shift a large part of its military to the other side of the galaxy to deal with a different and unknown(Chaos?) threat. It's funny that the IOM is under militarized.

Tau can listen in on IOM communications.^_^

It is true that many hammies largely miss the point of the IoM being in a massive state of decay. ones).

The problem I think is that the setting when it comes to the IOM is grim stupid. The reason I and many others find the Tau appealing is that they don't engage in stupid self destructive behaviors.

Another problem is that some fans aren't really fans. You see this in VS debates where someone wants to argue for or against a side while not knowing bleep, or knowing only cherry picked data points.

It's not going to be get any better with the approaching hivefleets and the awakening of several Tomb Lords in space (even if the Nucrons are nerfed in some spots compared to the original ones).

The Necrons and Tyranids aren't as big a threat as some Hammies want them to seem.

Tyranids aren't coming because they are already there. They are modeled after insects like army ants, and that means there likely isn't a Tyranid infested galaxy sending out fleets.

Necrons are too few in number and divided as a people to be a major players. Some Necrons are even reasonably nice folk.

The Eldar are too few in number, like the Necrons divided, and only really interested in themselves.

The Imperium of Man is barely holding itself together, and is highly self destructive.

The Tau are the nice reasonably sane guys of the setting, but without certain technological advances they are reaching a point where they can't expand much farther, and they admit there are threats(Chaos) they don't know much about.

Orks are insane, love to fight, have huge numbers, but lack focus to actually be the threat they could be.

Chaos is the only group that has everything they need to be a true threat. There are even two gaping holes leading to the warp in the Warhammer 40,000 galaxy, one on either side. Even the Tau know better then to go near them.

It is interesting that the protagonist(Captain Titus) in Space Marine may be a Sensei.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm pretty sure the Eldar are targeted towards anime fans.

Tau seem targeted more towards someone who doesn't want grim stupid, or someone who wants a pseudo modern/pseudo future army to me.

Frankly, to me the Tau are Macross/Gundam in 40K, sort of, and where we agree is that they're not over the top grim. They're just some very rigid structure, with its own propaganda and founding myths, but it's nothing like the IoM. Mind you I wouldn't dislike the IoM for what they are. I think the Tau fit rather well, in their niche, which is plainly mirrored by the small sector of space they occupy.

The Eldars, nah, they're not more anime than any faction in this case. They're just elves in spaces, like the IoM is knights in space, and just like Orks are, well, Orks in space, that's all. Since the elves couldn't get real trees, they got an art nouveau coating, which is organic enough. Oh, they're actually elves mixed with ninjas (katanas and shurikens).

Take the big groups, Imperium of Man, Chaos, Eldars and Orks, and you basically have LOTR in space.
But the Tau, they're really something else. I agree though that their seemingly more advanced and drone-based war gear makes them look advanced, like "modern warfare 7.0" advanced you know. It may clash with some IoM fans' views who thought that this was the spot the IoM occupied, although as far as I've seen, only few hammies seem that deluded.
Most of them happily accept the interwar & WWII style.

Another problem is that some fans aren't really fans. You see this in VS debates where someone wants to argue for or against a side while not knowing bleep, or knowing only cherry picked data points.

Perhaps, or perhaps they're too much fanatics of their own peculiar vision of 40K. It isn't surprising though, considering how this approach of Warhammer has been championed by the very makers of this game, in their disorderly canon policies.

The Necrons and Tyranids aren't as big a threat as some Hammies want them to seem.

Tyranids aren't coming because they are already there. They are modeled after insects like army ants, and that means there likely isn't a Tyranid infested galaxy sending out fleets.

Yes but they're focusing on Terra because of the beacon of psy-whatever cast by the Emperor I think, or something similar, or perhaps that's just a theory. But the latest codex shows that there still are huge amounts of the larger swarms which are yet to enter the most active regions of the Imperium.

As for the Nucrons, they clearly got a revival. The idea now is that they're really intent on retaking what was theirs.

Necrons are too few in number and divided as a people to be a major players. Some Necrons are even reasonably nice folk.

They more or less all fight as efficiently and ruthlessly as they did before, and safe a few nerfs, they're still technically superior. Their division doesn't seem that dramatic as far as their global interests are concerned. The cases where disagreements may have occurred are probably numbered by one in a hundred.
For business reasons, Games Workshop added diversity as much as they made the Nucrons more active.

It is interesting that the protagonist(Captain Titus) in Space Marine may be a Sensei.

Ah?
I wonder if they're going to develop that part any further. Like a new order or some potential quasi-reincarnation for the God Emperor of Mankind. Or through a sacrifice of several senseis, they start a new cycle which final outcome is the return of the GEoM, like it's supposed to have happened first.
Narratively wise, that universe is so huge they have like a ton of things to write about to sell books to fans! :D

[Lucky]

Frankly, to me the Tau are Macross/Gundam in 40K, sort of,

The Eldar have a strong anime feeling specifically Outlaw Star feel to me when it comes to their vehicles at least.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eldar_V ... T5Y2BxnaZQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0N3L-pcGdc

Tau for me seem more video game inspired to me. Tau look like a cross between Battletech, Metroid, and Halo to me, but i can see a bit of The Shadow Chronicles.

and where we agree is that they're not over the top grim. They're just some very rigid structure, with its own propaganda and founding myths, but it's nothing like the IoM. Mind you I wouldn't dislike the IoM for what they are. I think the Tau fit rather well, in their niche, which is plainly mirrored by the small sector of space they occupy.

The problem with the IOM for me is that they have certain practices they could easily stop, and it would help them a lot

The Eldars, nah, they're not more anime than any faction in this case. They're just elves in spaces, like the IoM is knights in space, and just like Orks are, well, Orks in space, that's all. Since the elves couldn't get real trees, they got an art nouveau coating, which is organic enough. Oh, they're actually elves mixed with ninjas (katanas and shurikens).

Take the big groups, Imperium of Man, Chaos, Eldars and Orks, and you basically have LOTR in space.
But the Tau, they're really something else. I agree though that their seemingly more advanced and drone-based war gear makes them look advanced, like "modern warfare 7.0" advanced you know. It may clash with some IoM fans' views who thought that this was the spot the IoM occupied, although as far as I've seen, only few hammies seem that deluded.
Most of them happily accept the interwar & WWII style.

True

Perhaps, or perhaps they're too much fanatics of their own peculiar vision of 40K. It isn't surprising though, considering how this approach of Warhammer has been championed by the very makers of this game, in their disorderly canon policies.

Even if you go with everything being equal canon in 40,000 there are certain things that are repeated everywhere to the point it can't be ignored without being rather dishonest.

Yes but they're focusing on Terra because of the beacon of psy-whatever cast by the Emperor I think, or something similar, or perhaps that's just a theory. But the latest codex shows that there still are huge amounts of the larger swarms which are yet to enter the most active regions of the Imperium.

I thought it wasn't the Emperor the Tyranids are suppose to be after, but rather the system the IOM uses for navigation?

That sounds like the swarms are already in the galaxy?

As for the Nucrons, they clearly got a revival. The idea now is that they're really intent on retaking what was theirs.

Having two mindless killing machine races as player characters is kind of stupid, but I thought each tome had its own goals.

They more or less all fight as efficiently and ruthlessly as they did before, and safe a few nerfs, they're still technically superior. Their division doesn't seem that dramatic as far as their global interests are concerned. The cases where disagreements may have occurred are probably numbered by one in a hundred.
For business reasons, Games Workshop added diversity as much as they made the Nucrons more active.

The problem is that the Necrons have be supreme leadership, and if some full is to be believed no FTL of their own.

Ah?

Going by the wikis, common traits Sensei are said to possess are:
1) immunity to warp/chaos corruption

2) being somewhat rebellious

3) natural enemies of Chaos/corruption

4) Charismatic

5) highly skilled, but not obviously superhuman

6) trying to do the right thing

7) enhancing the abilities of their allies

8) they stop aging, and do not suffer the effects of old age

That sounds like Captain Titus, but I lack a first hand knowledge of the fluff concerning Sensei.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sensei#.UT5wXBxnaZQ
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Illu ... The_Sensei

Becoming a space marine would likely be a good way for a sensei to go unnoticed, and said sensei might not even know his nature when he joins up.

I wonder if they're going to develop that part any further. Like a new order or some potential quasi-reincarnation for the God Emperor of Mankind. Or through a sacrifice of several senseis, they start a new cycle which final outcome is the return of the GEoM, like it's supposed to have happened first.
Narratively wise, that universe is so huge they have like a ton of things to write about to sell books to fans! :D

Having the GM return somehow would certain be an easy way to justify new armies, models, and a great way to remove a lot of the the grim stupid from the IOM.

From an in-universe perspective it would likely start a civil war in the IOM, but what is good for the IOM is not necessarily good for humans.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Frankly, to me the Tau are Macross/Gundam in 40K, sort of,

The Eldar have a strong anime feeling specifically Outlaw Star feel to me when it comes to their vehicles at least.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eldar_V ... T5Y2BxnaZQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0N3L-pcGdc

Aside from the red spaceship, which is rather random, there's really nothing to look for. Eldars even predate that show by a large date. Now, it is possible that since GW mixed elves to ninjas, there could be *some* anime influences, but I don't really see that in the eldar vessel designs. Of course the universe evolved. There's more robotech in the eldar "titans" than anything else but it kinda stops there, because the humanoid shape is sleek, effeminate and has stuff that protrudes everywhere, but curvy, just like in modern animes. That said it has its appeal, although it seems to me that a lot of the coolness of the vehicles was originally based on the bat wing schlick that was so hot in the 90s. The original models, the oldest, on the other hand, just feel completely uninspired and some of them seem to channel a kind of vikings in space vibe. The newer curved designs aren't specially japanese. There were plenty of them in old American SF.

Tau for me seem more video game inspired to me. Tau look like a cross between Battletech, Metroid, and Halo to me, but i can see a bit of The Shadow Chronicles.

Not sure there's anything specific about video games. It's so large of a category, and Metroid, for all I've seen, hasn't struck for being a brand that established strong cultural or mecha designs.
Their manta reminds me of a toy I had, which was a big white vessel, shaped like half an ovoid. You could remove the top and there were plenty of vehicles to clip inside, and tons of small plastic soldiers, yellow, blue, etc.

and where we agree is that they're not over the top grim. They're just some very rigid structure, with its own propaganda and founding myths, but it's nothing like the IoM. Mind you I wouldn't dislike the IoM for what they are. I think the Tau fit rather well, in their niche, which is plainly mirrored by the small sector of space they occupy.

The problem with the IOM for me is that they have certain practices they could easily stop, and it would help them a lot

Not only can this be debated (I believe that if you wanted to change the IoM, you'd most likely break it at this point, if only because it would take resources the IoM barely seems to be able to use for defense these days), but it's also part of its charm. It's stupidly stuck and belives in its own mytho.

Perhaps, or perhaps they're too much fanatics of their own peculiar vision of 40K. It isn't surprising though, considering how this approach of Warhammer has been championed by the very makers of this game, in their disorderly canon policies.

Even if you go with everything being equal canon in 40,000 there are certain things that are repeated everywhere to the point it can't be ignored without being rather dishonest.

One might argue that it's not because a source is repeated a gazillon times, even if under several forms over the times, that it's particularly more valid than a source that got mentionned once.
It's a flawed reasoning. Multiplication and spread of A doesn't make it better than B just because B remained stuck in one region.

Yes but they're focusing on Terra because of the beacon of psy-whatever cast by the Emperor I think, or something similar, or perhaps that's just a theory. But the latest codex shows that there still are huge amounts of the larger swarms which are yet to enter the most active regions of the Imperium.

I thought it wasn't the Emperor the Tyranids are suppose to be after, but rather the system the IOM uses for navigation?

Perhaps it's the Astronomican that is tasty, can't remember right now. But surely, the idea is that the bugs like the shiny thing on Earth.

That sounds like the swarms are already in the galaxy?

Can't tell. To me it just shows swarms. Are there more? We don't know. Although the idea that swarms are attracted would tend to mean that all would be there, unless some swarms don't care about that snack.
It is also curious because the Astronomican's range is very limited, yet it is supposed to have attracted beasts from outside of the galaxy, like hounds which have a better flair than humans, or like blood for predators (air and water based)?
Intriguing.

They more or less all fight as efficiently and ruthlessly as they did before, and safe a few nerfs, they're still technically superior. Their division doesn't seem that dramatic as far as their global interests are concerned. The cases where disagreements may have occurred are probably numbered by one in a hundred.
For business reasons, Games Workshop added diversity as much as they made the Nucrons more active.

The problem is that the Necrons have be supreme leadership, and if some full is to be believed no FTL of their own.

Yes, they lost some bits, clearly. The "everywhere and anywhere in the blink of an eye" is myth now, for certain. I'd have to check but I think they just use something similar to what the Eldars use.
In terms of strategy it's not uninteresting. It's a pretty simple rule that limitations of movement in space and chokepoints and anchors make for better tension and stories.

Ah?

Going by the wikis, common traits Sensei are said to possess are:
1) immunity to warp/chaos corruption

2) being somewhat rebellious

3) natural enemies of Chaos/corruption

4) Charismatic

5) highly skilled, but not obviously superhuman

6) trying to do the right thing

7) enhancing the abilities of their allies

8) they stop aging, and do not suffer the effects of old age

That sounds like Captain Titus, but I lack a first hand knowledge of the fluff concerning Sensei.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sensei#.UT5wXBxnaZQ
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Illu ... The_Sensei

Becoming a space marine would likely be a good way for a sensei to go unnoticed, and said sensei might not even know his nature when he joins up.

Here's the Hidden King silver lining for you.

I wonder if they're going to develop that part any further. Like a new order or some potential quasi-reincarnation for the God Emperor of Mankind. Or through a sacrifice of several senseis, they start a new cycle which final outcome is the return of the GEoM, like it's supposed to have happened first.
Narratively wise, that universe is so huge they have like a ton of things to write about to sell books to fans! :D

Having the GM return somehow would certain be an easy way to justify new armies, models, and a great way to remove a lot of the the grim stupid from the IOM.

From an in-universe perspective it would likely start a civil war in the IOM, but what is good for the IOM is not necessarily good for humans.

Business wise, I wouldn't count on it yet.
I'd probably rinse the Nucrons dry first, and even try to bring back the squats in some way, before completely screwing over the Fall of the Imperium era.
Not only it keeps fans on their toes, but doing it too soon can kill opportunities for milking.
They couldn't really launch it as some kind of "Battlefeet Gothic", you know, like focused on a given timeline, because knowing for sure that there's a future and the return of the GEoM, it would completely relieve the sense of despair for all pre-return material.
It could only work if they added like a MASSIVE does of dramatic irony, and having the IoM make huge sacrifices that actually bring it close to extinction because it lost faith in the return of the GEoM, so there would be an even darker era just before the Return, and whole new wave of traitors all around, with the GEoM starting small and perhaps even far from Terra. Like some messiah no one wants to hear about, and could even get impaled by the Romans in space. :P
I think GW could pull that stunt in about 15-20 years from now.

[Lucky]

Aside from the red spaceship, which is rather random, there's really nothing to look for. Eldars even predate that show by a large date. Now, it is possible that since GW mixed elves to ninjas, there could be *some* anime influences, but I don't really see that in the eldar vessel designs. Of course the universe evolved. There's more robotech in the eldar "titans" than anything else but it kinda stops there, because the humanoid shape is sleek, effeminate and has stuff that protrudes everywhere, but curvy, just like in modern animes. That said it has its appeal, although it seems to me that a lot of the coolness of the vehicles was originally based on the bat wing schlick that was so hot in the 90s. The original models, the oldest, on the other hand, just feel completely uninspired and some of them seem to channel a kind of vikings in space vibe. The newer curved designs aren't specially japanese. There were plenty of them in old American SF.

I take it you don't care much for anime/manga, shame.

Warhammer 40,000 was released in 1987.

Guyver was released in 1985. Zoalords and humans in Bio-Booster Armor have a very similar Aesthetics to Eldar troops.

Macross was released in 1982. Eldar vehicles have a very similar aesthetics to many of the vehicles found in the series.

Two very popular anime/manga that predate Warhammer 40,000 by years, and that have very similar character designs to 40K Eldar. Given the other bits of Japanese thrown into the Eldar, I doubt that the similarities between the Eldar and various anime and manga are random chance.

_-_-_-_-_-_

Outlaw Star has kind of a retro space opera aesthetic to it, and that is why I pointed it out. If you like Star Wars Episode 4 through 6 then you might like it.

Not sure there's anything specific about video games. It's so large of a category, and Metroid, for all I've seen, hasn't struck for being a brand that established strong cultural or mecha designs.
Their manta reminds me of a toy I had, which was a big white vessel, shaped like half an ovoid. You could remove the top and there were plenty of vehicles to clip inside, and tons of small plastic soldiers, yellow, blue, etc.

The only mecha aspect I see in the Tau is the "heads" on the battle suits.

The stealth suits have a metroid vibe to me. They remind me of the armor Samus wears.

I think the Tau may have a Cylon vibe to them. They tend to have a single red "eye".

Not only can this be debated (I believe that if you wanted to change the IoM, you'd most likely break it at this point, if only because it would take resources the IoM barely seems to be able to use for defense these days), but it's also part of its charm. It's stupidly stuck and belives in its own mytho.

Take a look at the fluff concerning plasma weapons. In the IOM plasma weapons are wanted in large numbers, but produced in small numbers, produced in only one location, and the knowledge is being lost. Simply having two planets producing plasma weapons would help the IOM greatly, and help to safe guard the knowledge.. This is one of those little things that could make a huge difference.

One might argue that it's not because a source is repeated a gazillon times, even if under several forms over the times, that it's particularly more valid than a source that got mentionned once.
It's a flawed reasoning. Multiplication and spread of A doesn't make it better than B just because B remained stuck in one region.

It tends to mean the company wants it that way if every source they print and license say it is a certain way.

Perhaps it's the Astronomican that is tasty, can't remember right now. But surely, the idea is that the bugs like the shiny thing on Earth.

Moth to a flame. I don't think Tyranids would actually care much for 40K Earth.

Can't tell. To me it just shows swarms. Are there more? We don't know. Although the idea that swarms are attracted would tend to mean that all would be there, unless some swarms don't care about that snack.
It is also curious because the Astronomican's range is very limited, yet it is supposed to have attracted beasts from outside of the galaxy, like hounds which have a better flair than humans, or like blood for predators (air and water based)?
Intriguing.

The astroonomican is like a lighthouse or signal fire meant to tell things in the warp were the Earth is. The farther out you go the harder it is to see, but you can see it from a very long way away even if you are too far to use it for navigation.

Yes, they lost some bits, clearly. The "everywhere and anywhere in the blink of an eye" is myth now, for certain. I'd have to check but I think they just use something similar to what the Eldars use.
In terms of strategy it's not uninteresting. It's a pretty simple rule that limitations of movement in space and chokepoints and anchors make for better tension and stories.

So the Necrons have webway and are a bunch of tiny kingdoms.?

Here's the Hidden King silver lining for you.

Carted off at the end of the game to be tortured and killed or worse.

Business wise, I wouldn't count on it yet.
I'd probably rinse the Nucrons dry first, and even try to bring back the squats in some way, before completely screwing over the Fall of the Imperium era.
Not only it keeps fans on their toes, but doing it too soon can kill opportunities for milking.
They couldn't really launch it as some kind of "Battlefeet Gothic", you know, like focused on a given timeline, because knowing for sure that there's a future and the return of the GEoM, it would completely relieve the sense of despair for all pre-return material.
It could only work if they added like a MASSIVE does of dramatic irony, and having the IoM make huge sacrifices that actually bring it close to extinction because it lost faith in the return of the GEoM, so there would be an even darker era just before the Return, and whole new wave of traitors all around, with the GEoM starting small and perhaps even far from Terra. Like some messiah no one wants to hear about, and could even get impaled by the Romans in space. :P
I think GW could pull that stunt in about 15-20 years from now.

But they could do it all at once as well.

I fail to see how bringing back the GM really hurts the setting's feel.

Everything i know about 40K seems to point to make it seem like the GM would hate the IOM as it is. The GM didn't seem to want to be worshiped as a god for one thing. The GM returning doesn't magically solve problems. Heck, the Imperial Truth was very anti-religion.