An interesting thread...

[Khas]

http://forums.asvs.org/showthread.php/2 ... me-numbers

[Lucky]

http://forums.asvs.org/showthread.php/2 ... me-numbers

Isn't anything with notable mass only in the rear third or fourth of a stardestroyer of any kind?
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The front 2 thirds or 3 fourths of an I.S.D. is basically just empty space to hold T.I.E., AT-AT, AT-ST, landing craft, shuttles, supplies, prefabricated bases... well you get the idea. An ISD replaces both the Venator class and the Acciamator transport.

The Victory class is simply meant to fill the role of a Venator. It should have less empty space per volume then an ISD.
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I'm not sure why Brian is bringing up Star Trek?

I love how Brian is ignoring the Enterprise-D is not a an ultra generalist like an ISD. Do you honestly compare a military base to a battleship?
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I'm not sure what Vince is trying to claim in post 27? What technical knowledge did Saxton have when he wrote the ICS? I mean isn't it true Saxton didn't have the movies to work with when he wrote the ICS therefore making his work not based on the movies like the ICS is suppose to be?

[Mike DiCenso]

As for the Death Star's firepower of "half the Star Fleet" referring to it's other weapons emplacements, that also comes from the Death Star novel.

Actually, the second-highest canon of the ANH novelization fills us in that Dodonna means the turbolaser emplacements, not the superlaser:

"Take special note of these emplacements. There's a heavy concentration of firepower on the latitudinal axes, was well as several dense circumpolar clusters."
-Star Wars: A New Hope, chapter 11

As for the Death Star Novel, I'm not aware of any passage that states that any similar thing. A quote is in order, perhaps?
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Oh another thing. Weight is a huge concern on Star Wars ships. From the secondary canon of the RoTS novelization:

"[He] slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him."
- RoTS, page 74

Later on page 86 we get:

"permacrete, hydrofoamed to reduce weight."

So if we take these passages, plus the other information mendtioned by Khas, then yes, the Empire and other SW powers build their ships using a form of foam!
-Mike

[Lucky]

Khas;
We have slave 1 vaporizing some asteroids, and X-wings causing massive collateral in the films, suggesting terajoule range firepower. Its worth noting that the armours that fighter firepower penetrate can withstand multi-hundred megajoule blaster shots taking only trivial surface damage, like stray shots that hit tanks or the Falcon. ICS gives yields of between 1 and 2 kilotons per shot to fighter based weapons, which is consistent with these on screen events. X-Wings are have larger heavier laser guns, so probably yield 2 or more kilotons per shot, and have four lasers total. According to SWvST they have a volume of ~27 cubic meters.
In a New Hope, we see the Tantive with its proportionally massive turbolasers fire of a couple of bursts on to the bare armoured hull of a ISD, the energy is spread over hundreds of square meters and leaves zero visible damage. This Corvette is close to 2,400 times greater in volume than the X-wing. If it had proportionally more firepower we would be talking tens of megatons. In reality in may wield far more firepower, because larger capital ships dedicate a larger percentile of their power output to weapons – even hundreds of megatons. These are the energy levels which the main hull of the ISD can harmlessly dissipate, receiving trivial damage at best.
In contrast, the heavy turbolasers of a capital ship may blast 60 meter wide holes through such armour, and even penetrate half way through a starship, as demonstrated in both ROTS and ROTJ. Armour which can withstand hundreds of megatons harmlessly could well require teratons to blast through.
So from observed firepower in the movies, we can set a lower limit orders of magnitude greater than tens or hundreds of megatons, for single shots from heavy turbolasers. We also have the Falcon’s shields withstanding a single digit megaton blast in ESB, when she is escaping through the asteroid field. The shields are taking a beaten, but we don’t know how many shots of this yield it would take to lower them. And this is a 35 meter long freighter, not a warship. This blast is spread over a far larger volume than the tie lasers, explaining how fighters might compromise shields with less firepower.
Then we have propulsion and required power generation, suggesting very high firepower, and the fleet wielding close to twice the firepower of the Death Star’s superlaser, suggesting greater firepower still.
Fighter extrapolated firepower, the falcon scene, the propulsion figures, DS calculations, are all independent of each other and are all from the films. They all dictate firepower orders of magnitude higher than what you were proposing (<14 kilotons per second_). This and more is covered in the videos Brian has created.

What asteroids does Slave-1 vaporize?

The X-Wing claim is old news that was long ago debunked. Heck, just looking at the movies you see bolts doing different levels of damage. Then there's this:
ANH, Chapter XII:
Bolts flew from the tiny vessel's weapons. One started a huge fire on the dim surface below, which would burn until the crew of the station could shut off the flow of air to the damaged section.
Luke's glee turned to terror as he realized he couldn't swerve his craft in time to avoid passing through the fireball of unknown composition. "Pull out, Luke, pull out!" Biggs was screaming at him. But despite commands to shift course, the automatic pressors wouldn't allow the necessary centrifugal force. His fighter plunged into the expanding balls of superheated gases.
Then he was through and clear, on the other side. A rapid check of his controls enabled him to relax. Passage through the intense heat had not been insufficient to damage anything vital, though all four wings bore streaks of black, carbonized testimony to the nearness of his escape.
Hell-flowers bloomed outside his ship as he swung it up and around in a sharp curve. "You all right, Luke?" came Biggs's concerned query.
"I got a little toasted, but I'm okay."


Energy bolts and sun-bright beams continued to create a chromatic maze in the space above the station as the rebel fighters crisscrossed back and forth over its surface, firing at whatever looked like a decent target. Two of the tiny craft concentrated on a power terminal. It blew up, throwing lightning-sized electric arcs from the station's innards.
Inside, troopers, mechanicals, and equipment were blown in all directions by subsidiary explosions as the effects of the blast traveled back down various conduits and cables. Where the explosion had hulled the station, escaping atmosphere sucked helpless soldiers and 'droids out into a bottomless black tomb.

On top of this we know standard fighter weapons are a credible threat to war ships from the movies alone.

Then you have proton cannons able to one or two shot an Acclamator.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/J-1_semi ... ton_cannon
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... Ryloth.png

By Vince's logic storm troopers have terawatt blaster rifles because we see them sending white hot peaces of the M.Falcon flying off the hull as it leaves Tatooine.

[Mr. Oragahn]

As for the Death Star's firepower of "half the Star Fleet" referring to it's other weapons emplacements, that also comes from the Death Star novel.

Actually, the second-highest canon of the ANH novelization fills us in that Dodonna means the turbolaser emplacements, not the superlaser:

"Take special note of these emplacements. There's a heavy concentration of firepower on the latitudinal axes, was well as several dense circumpolar clusters."
-Star Wars: A New Hope, chapter 11

As for the Death Star Novel, I'm not aware of any passage that states that any similar thing. A quote is in order, perhaps?
-Mike

There's actually a clear passage that leaves no doubt about how the firepower in question was of conventional nature, massed in large quantities due to the size of the battle station. There's like a complete list of all weapons.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 941#p24941, third quote.

A bit more complete version is to be found here, but the text carries some artifacts due to the board update that took place some years ago.

While on the topic of the SL firepower, here's a kind of summary I typed two years ago (I mention other SLs, like the Eclipse's):

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 267#p21267

[Mr. Oragahn]

Khas;
We have slave 1 vaporizing some asteroids, and X-wings causing massive collateral in the films, suggesting terajoule range firepower. Its worth noting that the armours that fighter firepower penetrate can withstand multi-hundred megajoule blaster shots taking only trivial surface damage, like stray shots that hit tanks or the Falcon. ICS gives yields of between 1 and 2 kilotons per shot to fighter based weapons, which is consistent with these on screen events. X-Wings are have larger heavier laser guns, so probably yield 2 or more kilotons per shot, and have four lasers total. According to SWvST they have a volume of ~27 cubic meters.
In a New Hope, we see the Tantive with its proportionally massive turbolasers fire of a couple of bursts on to the bare armoured hull of a ISD, the energy is spread over hundreds of square meters and leaves zero visible damage. This Corvette is close to 2,400 times greater in volume than the X-wing. If it had proportionally more firepower we would be talking tens of megatons. In reality in may wield far more firepower, because larger capital ships dedicate a larger percentile of their power output to weapons – even hundreds of megatons. These are the energy levels which the main hull of the ISD can harmlessly dissipate, receiving trivial damage at best.
In contrast, the heavy turbolasers of a capital ship may blast 60 meter wide holes through such armour, and even penetrate half way through a starship, as demonstrated in both ROTS and ROTJ. Armour which can withstand hundreds of megatons harmlessly could well require teratons to blast through.
So from observed firepower in the movies, we can set a lower limit orders of magnitude greater than tens or hundreds of megatons, for single shots from heavy turbolasers. We also have the Falcon’s shields withstanding a single digit megaton blast in ESB, when she is escaping through the asteroid field. The shields are taking a beaten, but we don’t know how many shots of this yield it would take to lower them. And this is a 35 meter long freighter, not a warship. This blast is spread over a far larger volume than the tie lasers, explaining how fighters might compromise shields with less firepower.
Then we have propulsion and required power generation, suggesting very high firepower, and the fleet wielding close to twice the firepower of the Death Star’s superlaser, suggesting greater firepower still.
Fighter extrapolated firepower, the falcon scene, the propulsion figures, DS calculations, are all independent of each other and are all from the films. They all dictate firepower orders of magnitude higher than what you were proposing (<14 kilotons per second_). This and more is covered in the videos Brian has created.

What asteroids does Slave-1 vaporize?

The X-Wing claim is old news that was long ago debunked. Heck, just looking at the movies you see bolts doing different levels of damage. Then there's this:
ANH, Chapter XII:
Bolts flew from the tiny vessel's weapons. One started a huge fire on the dim surface below, which would burn until the crew of the station could shut off the flow of air to the damaged section.
Luke's glee turned to terror as he realized he couldn't swerve his craft in time to avoid passing through the fireball of unknown composition. "Pull out, Luke, pull out!" Biggs was screaming at him. But despite commands to shift course, the automatic pressors wouldn't allow the necessary centrifugal force. His fighter plunged into the expanding balls of superheated gases.
Then he was through and clear, on the other side. A rapid check of his controls enabled him to relax. Passage through the intense heat had not been insufficient to damage anything vital, though all four wings bore streaks of black, carbonized testimony to the nearness of his escape.
Hell-flowers bloomed outside his ship as he swung it up and around in a sharp curve. "You all right, Luke?" came Biggs's concerned query.
"I got a little toasted, but I'm okay."


Energy bolts and sun-bright beams continued to create a chromatic maze in the space above the station as the rebel fighters crisscrossed back and forth over its surface, firing at whatever looked like a decent target. Two of the tiny craft concentrated on a power terminal. It blew up, throwing lightning-sized electric arcs from the station's innards.
Inside, troopers, mechanicals, and equipment were blown in all directions by subsidiary explosions as the effects of the blast traveled back down various conduits and cables. Where the explosion had hulled the station, escaping atmosphere sucked helpless soldiers and 'droids out into a bottomless black tomb.

On top of this we know standard fighter weapons are a credible threat to war ships from the movies alone.

Then you have proton cannons able to one or two shot an Acclamator.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/J-1_semi ... ton_cannon
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... Ryloth.png

By Vince's logic storm troopers have terawatt blaster rifles because we see them sending white hot peaces of the M.Falcon flying off the hull as it leaves Tatooine.

Selective evidence. Wait, they don't even have anything to select from, really. Pretty much all evidence is on the side of the reasonable, moderate figures these days, now that the mess has been cleaned.

The best thing they still have, against the flood of quotes *we* have, is the turbolaser turrets' recoil in the giga-tonnage range from that Slave-I book I think.

[Picard]

Oh another thing. Weight is a huge concern on Star Wars ships. From the secondary canon of the RoTS novelization:

"[He] slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him."
- RoTS, page 74

Later on page 86 we get:

"permacrete, hydrofoamed to reduce weight."

So if we take these passages, plus the other information mendtioned by Khas, then yes, the Empire and other SW powers build their ships using a form of foam!
-Mike

And to think that my first impression of ISD (when I've first seen ANH) was that it was built from concrete.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Oh another thing. Weight is a huge concern on Star Wars ships. From the secondary canon of the RoTS novelization:

"[He] slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him."
- RoTS, page 74

Later on page 86 we get:

"permacrete, hydrofoamed to reduce weight."

So if we take these passages, plus the other information mendtioned by Khas, then yes, the Empire and other SW powers build their ships using a form of foam!
-Mike

And to think that my first impression of ISD (when I've first seen ANH) was that it was built from concrete.

And when you think of the ten if not hundreds of tonnes of hypermatter fuel star destroyers should carry around as per Saxtonian energetic needs...