A rather... startling... discovery

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Lucky
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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Lucky » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:58 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Data said "12.75 billion gigawatts per..." and never finished his sentence. At least that's a thing trekkies and warsies alike recognize.
The context of Data's statement is rather important in this case as is Data's seemingly obfuscating stupidity
True Q wrote: LAFORGE: this is the main control area. We can access any of the primary circuits from all of these panels. Over here is a Jeffries tube. 


AMANDA: Where most of the major conduits are routed. 


LAFORGE: You've been doing your homework. 


AMANDA: It's hard to imagine how much energy is being harnessed in there. 


DATA: Imagination is not necessary. The scale is readily quantifiable. We are presently generating twelve point seven five billion gigawatts per 


(an alarm goes off) 


DATA: Temperature in the reaction chamber has increased by forty seven percent. 


LAFORGE: Injector couplings are frozen. I can't slow down the reaction. 


DATA: Temperature increase is at one hundred six percent and rising. 


LAFORGE: La Forge to Bridge! We're looking at a core breach! We're going to have to try and vent the plasma! 


DATA: Plasma inductors are not responding. 


LAFORGE: We're going to lose containment. All right, everybody out of here now. Let's go! Let's move it! Data, bring down the isolation door. We're going to have to eject the warp core. 


(the chamber explodes, but Amanda holds out her hands and pushes the reaction back inside and seals it again) 


DATA: Temperature in the reaction chamber has returned to normal.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Tyralak » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:48 am

Everyone assumes that Data was going to refer to a period of time when he was cut off. It makes more sense that he was referring to per section, pylon, etc.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:12 pm

Tyralak wrote:Everyone assumes that Data was going to refer to a period of time when he was cut off. It makes more sense that he was referring to per section, pylon, etc.
Not really. Giving a figure in watts per an unit of time, like hours, works perfectly.
He could also be giving a measure of power production per a given quantity of fuel reserve, or fuel consumed, which doesn't require said fuel quantity to be consumed within one second.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Khas » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:22 am

No, it doesn't. A watt is a measurement of one joule per second. You can't have one joule per second per hour.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by 359 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:09 am

Actually one can have energy/unit time/unit time, it is a unit used in power plant ramp-up, however that would not fit with the question, nor does it fit with the situation in general.

The problem with energy/unit time/mass fuel is that fuel contains a fixed amount of energy independent of the time it spends in the reactor.

So the only two options that fit are either cutting off the statement at "second" or finishing it by making it energy/unit time/unit volume where the volume of the reactor would play a role. Both of these fit with the question and with how one might actually measure a reactor.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:51 pm

Khas wrote:No, it doesn't. A watt is a measurement of one joule per second. You can't have one joule per second per hour.
It is not elegant but it's often the form the misuse of the terms kilowatt and hour takes.
Now, it is kilowatt.hour, as 3.6 MJ. But the layman often ends saying kilowatt per hour. Check internet, you'll see people using both terms like if they meant the same thing.
Plus in Trek, there has already been cases of misuse of scientific units.

Now, power per time is an "acceleration", an increase of the power produced. However it would be problematic, because if Data was to mean "per second", it would mean that each second, they were adding another pack of some several billion joules produced from the reactor. The mere time it would have taken Data to say this would have made the reactor produce far more power than when they had just entered the room some seconds earlier.
At that rate, teratons weren't far away.

A much more reasonable comprehension would be that he were to say per an amount of fuel. That's done today to measure the production of energy of a given amount of nuclear fuel in a nuclear plant. For example, if they know that with fuel X, they produce one watt per gram (1W/g) and that they have in the reactor at a given time a clip of fuel X that weighs 1000 kilos, then they'll say that the plant can produce 1000 W per that amount of fuel. Eventually, the plant's power production can be dialed up or down, like by having more fuel rods for example, just like they could decide to add some extra units of deuterium slush into the core.

It could also be a reference to the dylithium crystals. One pack of them can last for a while, and need to be changed every once in a while. When taking into account the lifespan of these crystals, Data could literally mean that although they can handle up to the production of a total of several billion watts, they wouldn't even need to be producing more than some terawatts of power at that very moment.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:56 pm

Tyralak wrote:Everyone assumes that Data was going to refer to a period of time when he was cut off. It makes more sense that he was referring to per section, pylon, etc.

That makes no sense in the context of Amanda's question to Data. Where as in episodes, like "Revulsion", Ensign Kim specifically refers to the 5 million gigawatts that happen to be running through that particular conduit that he and Seven are working on, or in "Riddles" where again a specific references is made to 9 million terawatts for the Ba'neth cloaking field's power output, and the output of the 500 GJ phase cannon in ST:ENT's "Silent Enemy." Those are very specific to those particular systems. Amanda was in awe about the energy in the warp core, and Data corrected her with a specific power output at that moment.
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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:10 pm

There's a use of "per" that nobody in the VS debate seems to have noticed, that makes perfect sense in this context:

"Per normal operating parameters."
"Per standard idle rate."
"Per regulations."

Under no circumstances does a barely-heard "per" at the end of the line - I seem to recall this is one of the cases where the script and the line onscreen are reported differently - really impact the line. There's not really any meaningful thing that we'd use for "per" in terms of units except for "number of warp cores," or "percent of warp core safe maximum," or something similarly silly. Unless you're engaging in absurdity, take it or leave it at 12.75 exawatts.

As I've pointed out before, the things the Enterprise does do at times require that amount of effective power. The rate of change of gravitational potential energy involved in moving quickly from point A to point B are significant when point A is right next to a star or singularity (TNG: "Half a Life," TNG: "Relics," TNG: "Descent," ENT: "Singularity," to name a few), and when aliens modify the Enterprise's own warp system to travel outside the galaxy in moments, the requirements are similarly quite high (TOS: "Day of the Dove," TNG: "Where None Have Gone Before," to name a couple) - presumably, the aliens haven't installed a free energy conduit somewhere, they've just made the warp core more efficient in some fashion and able to run at maximum levels for much longer.

It's also a power level that makes sense for an antimatter-based power system; it's too high for you to conveniently manage with fusion, but low enough that you're not chugging through significant quantities of your fuel reserve per second. Two Homer Simpsons per second - or twenty - is actually a pretty reasonable flux of matter when you're at an absurdly high temperature and pressure, as warp cores are.

You get a little more trouble with fuel storage; if you're burning 2 m^3 of frozen fuel per second on the E-D, you get about a day per percent of the total volume of the ship dedicated to fuel storage. So unless you're refueling along the way, with those Bussards that the ship is supposed to have, or storing the fuel in a compressed form, you could be in trouble.

I did this all before, so I'll stop typing and quote myself:
In "Allegiance," Geordi states that operating engine efficiency is 93%. This is improved during the episode to 96%. In a notably similar example in "New Ground," Data notes that the low energy loss of the soliton wave (<2%) makes it 450% more efficient than the warp drive of the Enterprise. This could refer to the efficiency of the warp engines at either a bit over 91%, which would lie closely in line with the above figures, although it could also be interpreted as placing warp drive efficiency at ~21.8%. In "Chains of Command," Jellico demands a 15% increase in warp coil efficiency, suggesting engine efficiency below 85%. The highest efficiency figure mentioned in the series is 99%.

These efficiencies are too high to allow a single order of magnitude's gap between base system output and use... and too low to be the entire story.

Assuming efficiency between 80-99% and a normal generation level of 12.75 exawatts, this means the Enterprise must annihilate 143-177 kg of matter per second normally, and produce 0.13-3.2 exawatts of waste heat normally. This also means the Enterprise must somehow sink or radiate waste heat/energy at a rate comparable to a world-wide nuclear war while the warp core is in operation - dozens to hundreds of megatons every second.

We may suggest that this waste energy is somehow recycled into another form, e.g., trilithium, which is known to be highly volatile and a waste product of the Enterprise's warp drive, as noted in "Starship Mine;" it is also possible that some portion of this represents energy loss through the generation of neutrinos while converting matter into energy or back into matter. The ability of cloaked ships to remain undetected at warp while ships have sensitive neutrino detectors suggests this is not a significant source of energy loss.

The problem of fuel capacity is easier to solve. The Enterprise has, after all, Bussard ramscoops that can be used to suck interstellar hydrogen; if these may be operated at warp speed, the 10-21 kg/m3 of interstellar hydrogen typically present can be taken partial advantage of. By reconverting energy gained from matter/antimatter reactions back into antimatter, the Enterprise can breed its own antimatter stores from collected matter.

A ramscoop with a cross section roughly equal to the Enterprise's front end would need to travel roughly 10 billion times the speed of light. In order to avoid consuming fuel too quickly, the ramscoop would need to be extended tens or hundreds of kilometers outward. As this does not exceed the limits to which the deflectors can be extended, it is quite possible that the Enterprise is largely self-sustaining so long as it can keep cruising peacefully.
It fits pretty neatly, which is surprising when you consider that the people writing the show generally didn't know very much about science. We do run into a bit of trouble in terms of starships running out of fuel in a matter of weeks or months at "normal" operating rates, but if you can use warp cores / replicators / transporters / et cetera to "breed" antimatter back out of matter, it's fairly easy to pick up enough hydrogen somewhere. If you're not scooping up interstellar hydrogen, there's always the option of taking a quick pass through the outer atmosphere of a gas giant.

On the other hand, if we use a low level of power generation, now we have to explain where all the free energy comes from; and in the extreme cases, e.g., the Saxtonites' preferred "terawatt" figures on SDN, you have to ask why they don't just use fusion power rather than antimatter; it's a great deal safer and more convenient.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Picard » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:30 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Khas wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Lots of extrapolation for a power figure which wasn't complete as Data was cut off.
You may want to remember that there are several terawatt figures given throughout Star Trek which counter balance that as well.
Is this referencing "The Dauphin"'s statement where the Enterprise didn't even put out a terawatt? Because I mentioned Data said 12.75 BILLION gigawatts, or 12.75 exawatts. An exawatt is a million terawatts.

Also, a watt is a measurement of energy over time, one joule per second.
Data said "12.75 billion gigawatts per..." and never finished his sentence. At least that's a thing trekkies and warsies alike recognize.
Lowest you can go from that quote is "per pulse", which would give 4,25 billion GW.
Jedi Master Spock wrote: Two Homer Simpsons per second
One, actually.
If you're not scooping up interstellar hydrogen, there's always the option of taking a quick pass through the outer atmosphere of a gas giant.
Which is what we have in Voyager at least, although I think it was nebula and not a gas giant.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:04 pm

Picard wrote: Lowest you can go from that quote is "per pulse"
Why?

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:49 pm

I imagine because the Warp Drive was seen pulsing three times within one second when Data spoke...

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Picard » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:37 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Picard wrote: Lowest you can go from that quote is "per pulse"
Why?
Because core is pulsing. Pulses usually go pulse-nothing-nothing-pulse (not sure how it was in the episode itself, was a long time since I last watched it). Thus, 12,75/3 = 4,25, as there is 12,75 billion GW generation during time pulses react with each other, and none when they don't.

Other option is "per (insert unit of area here)" but it will increase power production, as, logically, crossectional area of warp core is the largest you can use. JMS' proposals also end up in higher power production than my own.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:25 pm

There is no obligation to consider that a single pulse contains all the power either.
It could be x watts per a series of pulses, each pulse transferring x watts of produced power.
If the processing of pulses was given a proper name, that is, if a series of pulses had a proper scientific nomenclature, it could be x watts per [string of pulses].

Considering this would be akin to a form of frequency, you could even have a figure of watts per millihertz or microhertz for example.
A huge of such a meticulous unit wouldn't even be surprising considering the powers involved in the chamber.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by 359 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:58 pm

The main problem with watts per pulse or frequency is that watts already has a time component. Watts per pulse makes no sense, it would need to be joules per pulse as pulses occurs over time, and thereby provide another unit-time putting us back at a watts per second value. Frequency, hertz, is just seconds^-1 so watts per frequency is just joules, and one can not measure power plant output in joules.

So the solutions that make the most sense are either to ignore the "per" and leave it at that. Or use a non-unit as JMS suggested, like "per regulations" which would not turn the statement into some nonsensical value.

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Re: A rather... startling... discovery

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:18 pm

359 wrote:The main problem with watts per pulse or frequency is that watts already has a time component. Watts per pulse makes no sense, it would need to be joules per pulse as pulses occurs over time, and thereby provide another unit-time putting us back at a watts per second value. Frequency, hertz, is just seconds^-1 so watts per frequency is just joules, and one can not measure power plant output in joules.

So the solutions that make the most sense are either to ignore the "per" and leave it at that. Or use a non-unit as JMS suggested, like "per regulations" which would not turn the statement into some nonsensical value.
Watts per [prefix]hertz is a valid measure.

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