Wikipedia: Star Trek versus Star Wars

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:50 pm

WolfRitter wrote:It's his job to doublecheck his sources and he is held responsible for not doing so.
And he did so. That's why he mentioned the figures might not be accurate, but the thought behind it is. A nuclear exchange could devastate the earth via a nuclear winter. What total yield that exchange has to have is unknown, but Sarli thought the 100MT figure was a good lower limit.

You tried to pass this off as Sarli saying that a 100MT could kill all life on earth (and you are still doing it later in your very latest reply, see what i quoted below this). That is what's known as a Strawman, dear Schatten. You substitue someone's argument for something you're better equipped to refute.
Even if we were to hit every square kilometer with 100 MT devices it does not assure humanities destruction, there were a number of bunkers built for just such an event.
What's this got to do with anything? Who's been talking about the total destruction of humanity? Oh wait, another quaint strawman, isn't it?

You're digging yourself deeper with every reply. If you can't adress what i say without continously strawmanning, then you are proving that you can't actually adress my point.
There they are again, I'm starting to think you're a computer program.
Do i even need to respond anymore? I believe you yourself are proving me right without any help from me at all. I can understand the other points, or at least why you argue them, you're trying to put on a show for others. But in this case it doesn't even work, because most of the people you are putting this show on for know what i just said is right.
Not so, trekkie is a name for fans of Trek who argue from that side in the Vs Debate.
And do i agrue for trek in a vs debate, Schatten? Did you see that part about checking a thread that doesn't involve Star Wars but does involve Trek? Did you bother to read what i wrote before posting?

And no, dear Schatten, that definition of a Trekkie exists only in your head. Here, let me prove it for you:
Wiki wrote:Trekkie (or Trekker) is a term used to describe a fan of all or part of the Star Trek fictional universe.[1]

"Trekkie", originally intended only to describe enthusiasts of Star Trek, has sometimes been used to refer to any obsessed fan.[2]
Concise Oxford Dictionary: Encyclopedia II wrote: Trekkie - The word Trekkie
The term Trekkie is sometimes considered derogatory, perhaps because of a perceived parallel to the term groupie. Some Star Trek enthusiasts prefer the term Trekker, while some others hold the latter term to be stupid or pretentious, and, for that reason, self-identify as Trekkies. Some Trekkies even say that a Trekker is a Trekkie who is embarrassed for being Trekkie. On the other hand, Trekker is sometimes used as a term for the kind of Star Tre ...
But hey, if all Trekkie really means is that someone argues for Trek in a debate, then the title in itself is really meaningless. Also, what you just said would inevitably lead to the conclusion that whoever isn't a Trekkie is dishonest. Why? Because everyone has to debate for trek at some point, even if you dislike it. If you always debate against it, even in the absurdest of cases and when you are proven wrong in a black and white way, you are dishonest.

You said you were honest right? Welcome to the fold, fellow Trekkie.
I notice you don't have a link.
You think i'd dig through several month/year old threads just to find it? You're not important enough Schatten. What matters to me is what happens between you and me specifically. You might want to put on a show for whoever is watching, but that doesn't bother me. All that matters is that you know i'm right and that it irks you endlessly.

Of course, this wasn't your only fumble on the intelligence front. I thought i'd just mention that, lest we forget what the starting point of this little deviation was.
You act like I should care, I'm an decidedly impolite person(s) and freely admit it,
You are an impolite person(s)? Problems with multiple personalities as well, i take it?
why don't you look at the SDN Thread where Invictus Chicken declared to the whole board he joined the Catholic Church,
That's the point which apprently you didn't get. You are impolite on the net. Try doing that in real life and see what happens. Now realize the reason for why you aren't like that in real life. Realize the reason for why something like this could never work in real life.

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Post by WolfRitter » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:07 pm

l33telboi wrote:You are an impolite person(s)? Problems with multiple personalities as well, i take it?

It appears some people don't realize that this board auto edits profanities.
That's the point which apprently you didn't get. You are impolite on the net. Try doing that in real life and see what happens. Now realize the reason for why you aren't like that in real life. Realize the reason for why something like this could never work in real life.
Actually, I am, whether you believe it or not.

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Post by Kazeite » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:10 pm

So, wait... WolfRitter, you call Sarli moron because he mentioned 100 MT figure, which doesn't actually affect his main argument that BDZ firepower is thousand times higher?

So, is 100000 MT enough to destroy civilisation on Earth-sized planet?

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Post by WolfRitter » Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:20 pm

Kazeite wrote:So, wait... WolfRitter, you call Sarli moron because he mentioned 100 MT figure, which doesn't actually affect his main argument that BDZ firepower is thousand times higher?

So, is 100000 MT enough to destroy civilisation on Earth-sized planet?
No, the collapse of civilization would require a continent busting power or higher, that's 1E7-8 (10,000,000-100,000,000) MT or higher, interestingly enough the lower limit of a BDZ is 1E8-9 (100,000,000-1,000,000,000) MT. Besides his argument was, despite L33tel and Darkstars protestations, "Now, as a comparison: 100 megatons is enough to wreck the Earth and cause nuclear winter (see Carl Sagan's "The Nuclear Winter")", the problem being that the area of complete destruction leaves only smoldering rubble and no fires since the explosion isn't large enough to ignite any sizable part of land., you'd need 1E6-7 (1,000,000-10,000,000) MT to get any effects on the global climate.

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:57 pm

WolfRitter wrote:No, the collapse of civilization would require a continent busting power or higher,
Hardly. Wrecking the economy and taking out several of the major cities in this world will be far in excess of collapsing civilization. It would be a blow humanity could hardly ever recover from.

Of course, i'm sure you'll interpret 'collapse of civilization' in such a way that it benefits your argument, like say, destroying every last human being on earth, right?
that's 1E7-8 (10,000,000-100,000,000) MT or higher,
A hundred teratons in a nuclear exchange would be far in excess of 'collapsing civilization'. It'll more likely be something that kills every human on earth. And it will most definetly cause a nuclear winter.

Now you're probably going to mention the KT event that fell within the 100 teraton mark. In fact, i'm guessing this the basis for your claim. Well guess what? A nuclear exchange would be far more devastating then an asteroid hitting the planet, if both incidents involve an equal amount of energy.

This is the same damn strawman you're still perpetuating. Or is it that you simply don't realize the difference between a natural disaster occuring in a single concentrated place, as opposed to a nuclear exchange that is spread out and targets vital areas of the planet?
Besides his argument was, despite L33tel and Darkstars protestations, "Now, as a comparison: 100 megatons is enough to wreck the Earth and cause nuclear winter (see Carl Sagan's "The Nuclear Winter")",
Drop the strawman, i'm willing to bet you're quite transparent to everyone involved by now. Sarli was talking about a nuclear exchange where 100MT might not have been the exact needed energy. He said so himself in the quote i provided.
the problem being that the area of complete destruction leaves only smoldering rubble and no fires since the explosion isn't large enough to ignite any sizable part of land., you'd need 1E6-7 (1,000,000-10,000,000) MT to get any effects on the global climate.
I'd like to see some backup for that claim. Because it sounds quite rediculous. A single 1MT nuke will ignite everything within a ~10km radius. And as you probably know, fire spreads.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:29 pm

WolfRitter wrote:you'd need 1E6-7 (1,000,000-10,000,000) MT to get any effects on the global climate.
It's funny, actually, there was a very recent study on the matter, indicating that 100 Hiroshima scale devices targeted at modern urban centers could produce quite dramatic effects on the global climate, lasting for a period of around one decade. As a point of reference, that's 15 megatons of precisely targeted yield, or 5-6 orders of magnitude less than the figure you're mistakenly claiming.

For those of you wishing to extinguish populations, I will remind you that it only takes in the neighborhood of 100 megatons - very selectively targeted - to vaporize several billion ordinary sized humanoids.

Using high precision kiloton range turbolaser strikes, 100,000 megatons is quite sufficient to wipe out a typical global civilization - figure on 10,000 deaths per kiloton for dense urban areas, 1,000 deaths per kiloton for suburban cities, 100 deaths per kiloton for rural towns, and 10 deaths per kiloton for scattered yurts, and you should be able to wipe out 99+% of the population in short order.

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Post by Kazeite » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:15 am

WolfRitter wrote:Besides his argument was, despite L33tel and Darkstars protestations, "Now, as a comparison: 100 megatons is enough to wreck the Earth and cause nuclear winter (see Carl Sagan's "The Nuclear Winter")"
His argument also was, despite your protestations, "Now, you can certainly argue with Sagan's specific numbers -- is 100 mt enough, or would it take 200 mt, 500 mt, maybe 1 Gt? -- but no reputable scientist would disagree that any significant nuclear exchange (enough to destroy all major population centers of all sides of the war) would lead to nuclear winter."

So, I quite concur with the posts above: 1E6-7 figure is so ludicrous it leaves a trail of plaid :)

Besides... even if Sarli is a complete, salivating moron, he works for the Lucasfilm. Either you accept that some EU authors may be wrong, or you must accept his reasoning as well.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:56 am

Curiously, that Wikipedia article seems not to be there anymore.

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Post by OmniBack » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:01 pm

l33telboi wrote:(solid objects couldn't penetrate shields because they are frequency based, anyone?)

I thought everything had a frequency?

Electricity, fire, radiation, sound and even atoms that make up walls and people vibrate at a specific frequency right?

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Post by Socar » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:07 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Curiously, that Wikipedia article seems not to be there anymore.
It was indeed deleted.

Curiously, Rogue 9 and Alyeska seemed to be defending it pretty much to the end.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:11 pm

OmniBack wrote:
l33telboi wrote:(solid objects couldn't penetrate shields because they are frequency based, anyone?)

I thought everything had a frequency?

Electricity, fire, radiation, sound and even atoms that make up walls and people vibrate at a specific frequency right?
Only AC electricity has a frequency, the AC in your wall has a frequency of 60 Hz for example but DC electricity has no frequency.

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Post by GStone » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:36 pm

I think he's referring to the type of 'frequency' that would keep one thing inside a particular universe and not in another. That'd be quantum resonance frequency. You're referring to source based frequency.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:42 pm

Socar wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote:Curiously, that Wikipedia article seems not to be there anymore.
It was indeed deleted.

Curiously, Rogue 9 and Alyeska seemed to be defending it pretty much to the end.
As I understand the way it goes, there's some kind of announcement made, a vote, followed by either the maintaining of the page, or its deletion.

Funny that for a website that it about everything and nothing, from dead serious to extremely trivial, some people feel it's right to delete such a page because it's just a nerd argument or so.

I just love the Original Research thingy. If you're not providing original content, it's not worth it or what?
Being an accurate, or at least, complete collection of everything we can know is not enough?

If you want original content, you open the door to anyone's theories and ramblings, which is unacceptable on wikipedia, which aims at being neutral.

So what the hell?

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Post by Socar » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:08 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I just love the Original Research thingy. If you're not providing original content, it's not worth it or what?
Being an accurate, or at least, complete collection of everything we can know is not enough?

If you want original content, you open the door to anyone's theories and ramblings, which is unacceptable on wikipedia, which aims at being neutral.

So what the hell?
Huh? The whole point is that original research is NOT allowed. Alyeska has frequently battled with people on the Trek pages about this very thing. It basically consisted of people complaining that he would go watch an episode, count the number of phaser banks on a ship, write the number down, and put it on a wiki page. People would say that that qualifies as original research, and thus they would remove his contributions.

Anyway, about the page being deleted, basically they think it qualified as fan cruft, which is an issue that I've had to deal with on multiple occasions myself. Very frustrating.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:00 pm

Socar wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I just love the Original Research thingy. If you're not providing original content, it's not worth it or what?
Being an accurate, or at least, complete collection of everything we can know is not enough?

If you want original content, you open the door to anyone's theories and ramblings, which is unacceptable on wikipedia, which aims at being neutral.

So what the hell?
Huh? The whole point is that original research is NOT allowed. Alyeska has frequently battled with people on the Trek pages about this very thing. It basically consisted of people complaining that he would go watch an episode, count the number of phaser banks on a ship, write the number down, and put it on a wiki page. People would say that that qualifies as original research, and thus they would remove his contributions.

Anyway, about the page being deleted, basically they think it qualified as fan cruft, which is an issue that I've had to deal with on multiple occasions myself. Very frustrating.
I got things mixed up. So they don't want original research. So what happens if one puts a wiki up, or a website, and then has it quoted on wiki?

Must all references make their way into paperworks or be sanctionned or something?

As for the fancruft part, the one who says that is an idiot. There are plenty of good reasons listed as to why this page should have been kept.

Simply put, this wiki page really asked to be complete. It would have covered the whole phenomenom.

Even without going into the specifics of the opposition's history over the internet, there still are sources which make it notable:

The Forbes page:
http://www.forbes.com/home/technology/2 ... match.html

The DVD that adresses that phenomenom - good or not is not relevant- :
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-vs-Trek ... B00005UQ9D

Apparently a paper at NewEssay is available for a certain amount of bucks (I admit I know nothing about that site, so don't look at me with big eyes) :
http://www.newessay.com/database/Star_W ... 88118.html

The university of Nebraska has their Journal of Religion & Film which looks at Trek and Wars, citing sources strongly involved in the versus culture:
http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/Vol7No2/Note ... rences.htm

The BC Blogcritics Magazine has a funny note about the nerdy cultures. Well, I put it here, but it doesn't adress the versus. Besides, I did my best to avoid blogs.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/04/25/133913.php

Sylvia Engdahl had a 16 pages long essay on this subject:
http://sylviaengdahl.com/space/myth01.htm

Above all, it's pop culture clash. If wiki doesn't have it, who will?

You can continue the Google search if you want to.

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