Teratons or nuthin'

[Khas]

Really? Because that's NOT what /tg/ says. They say that GW just replaced their good models with brittle ones, and changed what the models were made of to something loaded with carcinogens.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Really? Because that's NOT what /tg/ says. They say that GW just replaced their good models with brittle ones, and changed what the models were made of to something loaded with carcinogens.

Yet people buy that shit in spades. Call that cynical capitalism if you want.
There's no big competition anymore. There was Rackham, as I understood, who were aiming at reaching them and being a huge thorn in GW's foot, and they died (largely because the mess started the day they turned to some hedgefund company which, after the crash in 2007, was more concerned about saving money than satisfying the needs of hobbyists they didn't understood and probably mocked anyway).

[Praeothmin]

GW sucks...
Their models were really nice and detailed, but the prices were much too high for the quality...
But people kept buying their games in droves, and so they could keep prices as high as they wanted...

[Khas]

Really? Because that's NOT what /tg/ says. They say that GW just replaced their good models with brittle ones, and changed what the models were made of to something loaded with carcinogens.

Yet people buy that shit in spades. Call that cynical capitalism if you want.
There's no big competition anymore. There was Rackham, as I understood, who were aiming at reaching them and being a huge thorn in GW's foot, and they died (largely because the mess started the day they turned to some hedgefund company which, after the crash in 2007, was more concerned about saving money than satisfying the needs of hobbyists they didn't understood and probably mocked anyway).

Actually, Mantic Games and Privateer Press are rising to challenge GW, if /tg/ is to be believed. And Mantic Games has several former GW people working for it, much like how Andy Chambers left Games Workshop for Blizzard.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Please share the links to those /tg/ threads!

[Khas]

Here are the pages on 1d4chan, /tg/'s wiki (I spend WAY too much time on that wiki for my own good.)
http://www.1d4chan.org/wiki/Mantic_Games
http://www.1d4chan.org/wiki/Games_Works ... d_Feel_Bad

[Mr. Oragahn]

Talking about wankers, there's been another thread at SBC, last month, dealing with the ridiculousness of the ICS figures.
The intent of the thread was to show how SW would be like with such figures (firepower, range, accuracy, resilience, etc.).
It quickly turned into an age old pro/anti ICS thread.
Times have changed so the pro side is very weak, although you still see old head popping in, like Leo.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... 725/page-2

I see two claims, funny ones.

First one being that Invisible Hand's side cannons were on the verge of overloading, as Leo put it, supposedly explaining why the shots were down to sub kiloton levels.

This is pathetically absurd. Such weapons are supposed to manage outrageously high levels of firepower, at high rates of fire. Meaning that for example if the weapons were in the gigaton range, the only range wherein you could overload weapons, merely bringing their yields to a tame multi-megaton range would completely free the IH crew from the risk of overloading the heaviest HTLs.

These guns ?

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 191#p24191


It's on the same vein as the retarded claim that all ships were drained off their main power or something, whatever that was supposed to mean, like if they all decided to become weak at the same time and same level.
It completely missed the possibility that some ships would have pulled punches. By sheer virtue of that silly act, they'd therefore gain an enormous advantage, not only over a few enemy ships, but literally of the entire enemy fleet.
And let's not point out what looks like small squadrons of fresh Venators arriving at the battle field over Coruscant.
Let's not mention the fact that even a assault ship with firepower in the very low gigaton range would still be able to own, on his own, MILLIONS of ships stuck at the low kiloton or sub-kiloton range.


Now, the other ludicrous claim.

I've read that in most battles, yields are kept low because at such ranges any ship would badly hurt itself because of indirect splash damage.

OK.... what about the idea that the shields they have to go through are not only meant to repel biggatons, but that by the ICS, they're rated in watts, which at such magnitudes, means that you can only saturate them with firepower nearing those power figures (~ 10^24) ?

And if this is not stupid enough, since those ships would have such shields up, and since these shields are supposedly capable of tanking many DIRECT HITS from biggatons, why the hell would they be afraid of backfiring diffuse radiations from distant explosions ?


Do they think or something?


I also lol'd at Leo's suggestion of proton cannons/mass drivers counting on weak spots to deal damage.
No, really? With their shitty yields observed in higher canon, and at best very low KT yields in TCWS (if you assumed that the explosions were caused by the weapons and not some shit blown up inside by the weapons).
Somehow these weapons are supposed to be relevant.
Then when are they going to get through armour that's supposed to tank direct hit from nukes?
When are we going to see proton cannons firing shield-bypassing shells which unleash biggatons? Because it would be quite expected, you know, since once you get behind the enemy's defense, you'll try to actually bring it down with something, not just colourful explosion.

Plus the position of those cannons on the IH, on only one side, with fixed mounts, really makes for very poor antiship weapons, unless they start to aim at multi-km long beached whales.
But aren't ships in SW supposed to fight at much greater ranges and be capable of accelerations in the thousands of gees and beyond? :P

[Mr. Oragahn]

Besides, by the same piece of novelization text Leo takes his overloading argument from, we also learn that Needa, commanding the Venator that led a small squadron of ships against the IH, didn't know that Palpatine was aboard.
Everything indicates that all ships were giving all they had, and that kind of firepower started to make serious dents in the IH's structure when her shields were down.

The same structure which armour was seen burning up in previously undamaged areas as the ship fell into Coruscant's atmosphere.

EDIT: lol, Atom and Rama always demonstrating magnificent levels of... brain power deficiency?
Why are so perfectly healthy arguments incapable of finding a path through their thick skulls, straight to their minds?

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... t-10770526

That's the problem though - Seismic Charges are weapons available to a Bounty Hunter who uses them simply to throw-off a pursuing ship. If they were the rare fleet-destroying weapon that they would be were your suggestions for ship firepower true, why would Jango use three of the things so casually? It would be like a modern Earth mercenary driving around with a Hellfire missile in his jeep and then using it to throw off a cop car chasing him; it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

This is the issue; even assuming your argument that the ICS stats are irreconcilable is true, removing them still doesn't eliminate the problem inherent in Star Wars that there are numerous times in G and T canon alone when they should be using heavier weaponry but inexplicably don't. For example, you below suggest that nuclear-yields were possible at very short distances - so why isn't the Venator we see hovering over the battlefield on Kashyyyk using that level of firepower, or indeed any at all? Why don't capital ships simply pepper the ground with the kiloton shots like you suggest that they are only capable of from orbit during any of these land battles?

Even within the logic of your argument, you're kind of just replacing the problem of "why aren't the ships using biggatons when it would be useful" with "why aren't the ships using kilotons when it would be useful"; your alternative to the ICS stats still has the same core problem but also the added one that it isn't considered canon by the franchise holders.

Those seismic mines make for very poor defense weapons if you're trying to shake off an enemy small craft in the middle of nowhere.
They only proved useful because they were blasting rocks everywhere.

Also, he forgets like many warsies that the yield at the edge of the blue disk is very low.
It's been calculated many times, but you just need to look at how asteroids are disposed off when hit by the disk: there's no concentration of even kilotons of energy over a one meter long line.

It may be some exotic weapon that holds large amounts of TOTAL energy, but that's all.

Besides, those mines would only be useful to shake off large ships, because only star destroyers for example could be hit by the rather totally random dispersal of that blue disk.
I suspect Jango would drop a mine and let it drift towards the hull of a large spaceship, and somehow have it burst there.
He could drop several of them at once, thus multiplying the angles at which the cutting disks would expand.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Oh and we actually DO see the aftermath of Luke's strafing shots, at the very beginning. Once the first geysers of sparkles are cleared, we can see that the surface of all those pieces of surface structures which were hit was intact.
I simply don't see any evidence of 1 cubic meter of metal being vapourized at all.


Is Painrack a total idiot or some malicious troll? :p

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... 725/page-6
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... t-10793599

ISDs have 12 to 72 heavy turbolasers, depending on whether you're using class I or II ISDs. Depending on how much you wanna use WEG scales, the firepower jump scales....

Now. Jared point is absurd, because it rests on two factors.

1. We don't see the devastation seen by ICS firepower.
2. ICS firepower is so powerful, a single shot will destroy the population of the entire continental USA. Or Wyzilla second post which is a shot will destroy life on earth, leaving microbes behind.

Its wrong. Unless he's using the vulnerability of society as an argument. The Chixxiclub impact is 100 TERATONs. Guess what it did? It left behind an intact genus oh..... what is it called again?
Oh yeah.Coelacanth. Only microbes can be left behind?

How about a single shot will destroy the population of the entire continental USA? We calculated the impact from an asteroid calculator(note, a KE impactor will actually cause MORE damage than a pure thermal shot, although the fact that turbolasers has momentum and impact on an object such as the Millenium Falcon makes this discussion more complex). It will NOT destroy the US.

Now, have we ACTUALLY seen equivalent destruction?
Again, using the asteroid calculator, yes, we do. Bothawui.

BDZ operations itself require SUCH scope of firepower.

The hyperbolic statement that an ISD can turn to slag the surface of a world.


What Jared is trying to squeeze out of is trying to claim that we don't see this in VISUAL media.

The small description of devastation we get from Visions of the Future (VOTF) doesn't even support 200 gigatons.

It could very well be megatons or something lower, like kilotons.

Besides, he thinks that "hyperbole" is an argument in favour of literal understanding of a quote... while it's in fact pretty much the opposite!

[Mr. Oragahn]

The boiling cloud produced by 174 megatons of energy delivered by light cannons...


"You were the executive officer of the Star Destroyer Forger when it suppressed a rebellion on Gra Ploven by creating steam clouds which boiled alive two hundred thousand Ploven in three coastal cities."

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www. ... t-10814883
http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www. ... t-10823247

This tired old argument again? It's unfortunate every time someone triumphantly brings this out because it makes them look retarded and indicates an even more fundamental lack of understanding.

Do you know what 'megaton' means? It isn't the SI unit of hit points. It is a unit of TNT explosive equivalence, the thermodynamic work produced by an explosion.
Do you know why nuclear devices are measured in 'tons of TNT equivalent'? Because the gross effects of nuclear weapons are similar enough to conventional explosives that they can be validly compared. Your question should have been "its not as if a turbolaser is a conventional explosive, isn't it?"; instead you just made yourself look silly.

As for a turbolaser not being a conventional explosive, we'll start with the basics because apparently you were smoking weed instead of paying attention to thermo 101. An explosion is simply the release of expanding high-pressure gases.
A turbolaser bolt deposits its energy into a small area (i.e. the area upon which the bolt is incident) within a fraction of a second. How long do you think it takes for the bolt to travel its own length and disappear into a target? How much of the energy do you think is going to be dissipated in that time? The answer is not much. How much energy is still available in the form of hot, pressurised gas? Pretty much all of it. A conventional bomb (let alone a nuclear weapon) is a weapon that contains a very large amount of energy in a very small volume that is released in a short time. What do you think a turbolaser bolt is?
Of course, there is the issue of different deflagration or detonation velocities. The difference is not that one is weak and the other one is strong. The difference is that a fast explosive might shatter a train carriage but a slower one will throw the train carriage into the building in front of it.

You're always all hot and bothered about the idea of all the gigatons being there, they're just hiding because they're special non-explosive gigatons. What do you call a weapon that uses up lots of energy and has comparatively tiny target effect? A fucking useless weapon. Who cares if you use 200 gigatons to produce the effect of 0.000001 gigatons? Good fucking work.

Even if you pretend that there is some magical difference between your special megatons and real megatons, your pretending is rendered irrelevant by the fact that the calculation fundamentally relies on the presence of 100kPa overpressure encompassing a hemispherical volume of 5km radius.
Do you understand how much 100 kPa is? With ~30 kPa peak overpressure almost every single building is demolished. At 100 kPa you have close to total fatalities even setting aside the fact that a majority of people who were inside a building are now dead. Do you believe that people are going to complain about being burned when a 10km diameter of the city has been demolished? Do you have any idea how retarded this argument is? The saddest part is that this should have been instantly picked up via sanity check.

As for the final straw? What is a Ploven? Are they human? What sort of environment would you find on their planet?

I never paid enough attention to that one to notice the completely bogus claim on overpressure.
Hahaha.