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Batman
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Post by Batman » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:02 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Batman wrote:Should any of the canon sources ever attribute that much power to the DL-44 and fail to be contradicted by higher canon sources, yes?
Not sure to get what you say. I think the initial point is simple, however. With TLs and blasters showing no difference in effects, why would the downscaling work from the Death Star superlaser, to a capital ship's TL, and not from, say a capital ship turbolaser, and a blaster?
So are you saying than canon sources DO attribute that much firepower to the DL-44?
And do you truly believe that there are less discrepancies between two Bolt weapons that exhibit the same kind of behavior (massless bolts, explode on impact) then between a bolt weapon (HTL) and a congragating beam weapon (DS superlaser)?
TL bolts explode on impact as often as not,and I was not aware any HTL was ever observed in operation in detail...
I was not aware that hand blasters ever did any damage to the target before the visible bolt hit. TLs DO.
Please. TLs did that once. Twice, at best. Just as much as there's a laser cannon barely missing Yoda in ROTS, on Kashyyyk, exploding on the wall one frame or two before the visible bolt reaches the same point of impact on the wall.
Or there's Luke's hand in ROTJ, hit by a blaster bolt when he's fighting on Jabba's barge, where the bolt itself doesn't exactly hit where the flesh got burned.
Even those peculiar and minor incidents look likely to be explained by the same principle, in that the damaging bolt and the visible bolt are two different things.
But beside those very rare events, all of those bolt weapons show the exact same properties and mechanisms.
Very well. For the time being, I assume that TLs, the DS superlaser and hand blasters work on the same principles. So how exactly does this disprove 200GT MTLs?
And no I do NOT say the DS superlaser, TLs and hand weapons neccessarily function identically. However, since Wars has the technology to do the DS superlaser it is easily within their grasp to do 200GT MTLs on an Acclamator.
Huh, how so? The superlaser is precisely very different, in effects, to a random turbolaser. The superlaser is a very special weapon of a kind. Above all, it requires massive power generators to work.
So saying that 200 GT turbolasers are possible, medium or not, because superlasers exist, is just preposterous. The logic is completely cut, those two elements are irrelevant to each other. There's no adequate consequence from A to B.
Wars has the power generation technology to create the superlaser. Wars has the power channeling technology to create the superlaser. 200GT MTLs are child's play by comparison.

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Post by Praeothmin » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:38 am

Batman wrote:
Wars has the power generation technology to create the superlaser. Wars has the power channeling technology to create the superlaser. 200GT MTLs are child's play by comparison.
Except they use a completely different type of effects.
DS Superlaser: 8 beams converge on a middle one, and seem to reinforce, and then they all converge towards whatever target the DS wants to blow up. No external cannon, the "barrels" are all inside.

Turbolasers/Blasters: An energy/plasmoid/whatever bolt flies out of a cannon's barrel and then hits its target (except if fired by Stormtroopers, but that's another thread subject... :) ) and creates an explosion.

I think it is evident that they are not operating similarily.

And by that token, considering the Federation has the technology to create explosive devices no bigger then a photon torpedo that creates a planet and a sun from a Nebula, have mastered anitmatter/matter interaction well enough to produce antimatter in large quantities and use everywhere, as a means to power ships as well as a weapon, I think it's same to assume they can also create weapons in the high megaton/gigaton range, even though (just like the 200GT HTLs) we've never seen it.

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Post by Batman » Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:07 am

Praeothmin wrote:Batman wrote:
Wars has the power generation technology to create the superlaser. Wars has the power channeling technology to create the superlaser. 200GT MTLs are child's play by comparison.
Except they use a completely different type of effects
Like hell it does.
DS Superlaser: 8 beams converge on a middle one, and seem to reinforce, and then they all converge towards whatever target the DS wants to blow up. No external cannon, the "barrels" are all inside.
Effect: perfectly in line with DS level power DET weapon.
Turbolasers/Blasters: An energy/plasmoid/whatever bolt flies out of a cannon's barrel and then hits its target (except if fired by Stormtroopers, but that's another thread subject... :) ) and creates an explosion.
Baseless gibberish that is supported by nothing whatsoever.
I think it is evident that they are not operating similarily.
Which has what,excactly, got to do with Wars clearly having the power generation technology ?
And by that token, considering the Federation has the technology to create explosive devices no bigger then a photon torpedo that creates a planet and a sun from a Nebula,
Which is a process that NETS them Valentons of energy, not requires it and I'm afraid the Genesis torpedo is lost tech, and oh, both the sun and the planet were ALREADY THERE.
have mastered anitmatter/matter interaction well enough to produce antimatter in large quantities and use everywhere,
As supported by what, exactly? The Feds definitely have enough antimatter to run Starfleet. DO show how they use antimatter EVERYWHERE. Not that I see how it matters.
as a means to power ships as well as a weapon,
I think it's same to assume they can also create weapons in the high megaton/gigaton range, even though (just like the 200GT HTLs) we've never seen it.
The difference being, we have a canon source for them 200GT MTLs. We do NOT for MT/GT photorps. And have you ever bothered to work out the fuel requirements for M/AM power generation to match Wars ?
Last edited by Batman on Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mojo » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:36 pm

Jesus Christ, would somebody put a spellchecker on this site? I don't understand how someone can talk about such intellectual things so intelligently while misspelling every other word. It's literally difficult to read. Batman, I hate to come off like such a douche to a fellow Warsie, but OMFG man.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:08 pm

mojo wrote:Jesus Christ, would somebody put a spellchecker on this site? I don't understand how someone can talk about such intellectual things so intelligently while misspelling every other word. It's literally difficult to read. Batman, I hate to come off like such a douche to a fellow Warsie, but OMFG man.
Not every participant in this debate has Englisch as the first language. For Batman - as for me - it is a foreign language. And while we are maybe still learning, we do mistakes.

It isn't helpfull to complain about the mistakes if you don't show us - or at least me - I can't speak for Batman or others - what exactly the mistakes are. You shouldn't do this in the thread - but you can do it via pm.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:42 pm

Batman wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Batman wrote:Should any of the canon sources ever attribute that much power to the DL-44 and fail to be contradicted by higher canon sources, yes?
Not sure to get what you say. I think the initial point is simple, however. With TLs and blasters showing no difference in effects, why would the downscaling work from the Death Star superlaser, to a capital ship's TL, and not from, say a capital ship turbolaser, and a blaster?
So are you saying than canon sources DO attribute that much firepower to the DL-44?
Eh? I'm asking you, to be blunt, why you cherry pick and only apply your downscaling argument to only segments of choice?
Very well. For the time being, I assume that TLs, the DS superlaser and hand blasters work on the same principles. So how exactly does this disprove 200GT MTLs?
That's the problem. Your assumption is flawed.

Seriously, shit will rain the day a SDN member will acknowledge the very different effects the superlaser had on Alderaan, than all the effects turbolasers have on natural targets.

Namely, understand that the e38 joules figure is the result of the secondary explosion, not the first, and that the second happened way after the beam finished hitting the planet.
What I find most surprising is how, geeks, nerds, much like us, spend hours and hours on making measurements from blurred pictures and argue over a couple of pixels, count duration frame by frame, literally arguing over the medium used in such cases, and yet grandfully miss, by will or by lack of care or attention, the very exclusive attributes of the superlaser.

Yes, these observations are only available on Robert's site. We know that one of SDN's prime rules is not to tolerate the use of cals and observations from members who've been banned from SDN.
And we also know how it would hurt a lot of you, SDN members, to even admit even once that Robert did a good job on many points.
But your typical SDN member is so brainwashed by Wong's Inquisition mentality that there's no hope ever seeing this happen anytime soon.

Basically, there's just an awful amount of evidence that the superlaser is a very special piece of technology, which makes it sensibly different from a mere turbolaser scaled up.

I know, there's some old EU source that said one day that it was a scaled up turbolaser.
Of course, we also know that back then, efforts made to properly observe and explain phenomenoms from the film weren't always met with wonderful accuracy (WEG's era, for anyone who knows).
We also understand that at this time, there wasn't that much technical analysis to find about Star Wars, many "theories" didn't exist, and the films were still available on low quality video mediums, which would, of course, lead to inaccurate interpretations of canon facts. Besides, it was quite a given that the authors of the EU sources didn't spend that much time freezing videos, going frame by frame, to properly observe crucial facts.

Another question would be... what happened to the rather noble and logical mentality, that was to dismiss a claim from a guide, or from the EU, that could never match the movie material?

I've only seen a few weirdos who'd literally argue, for example, despite all measurements, that the Executor was not 17.6 km long, but more 8 or 12 km long, and still considered that your typical ISD was 1.6 km long, just because EU sources said so.
The idea was that any fan's measurement from the video couldn't outrank the sayings of an official source, be it the Starwars.com website or any EU book/CD.
And so much for evidence.
A similar example would be how the EU says that Sullust is a brown/red planet, while the novelisation speaks of a blue planet. But according to logic above, it is a brown/red planet.

That method doesn't seem to work that much at SDN, when it comes to certain crucial concerns that could lead to their beloved universe being reduced in grandeur, in a way or another. So we are not surprised that even the most simple observations are forgotten, ignored, dismissed, for the sheer sake of being sure that a certain shared vision remains unchallenged.

Point being, the superlaser does not exactly, nor sufficiently, act like a turbolaser.

Blaster bolts have much more in commmon with laser cannons and turbolasers than the superlaser ever will.

Ah, there's also that absurd idea that laser cannons are many orders of magnitude weaker than turbolasers. This used to dismiss, for example, the EU's references about terajoules of energy exchanged by starships and stations exchanging fire in heated battles.
Nevermind that the same EU source also says that an ISD, later one, fires terajoules of energy. Nevermind if the Golan station that was attacked did have countless racks of turbolaser batteries. Nevermind that such ships (2 New Republic Assault Frigates) can cripple the sides of and ISD's shields (as seen in Zahn's first trilogy). Nevermind that RPG guides insisting that turbolasers aren't even one order of magnitude more powerful than laser cannons. Nevermind if the EU has shown TIE ships sport small turbolasers.

And who gives if a portion of the EU argues that laser cannons and turbolasers fire pure light, since other EU sources, such as the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (pages 80 and 88) clearly say that they're mixed bags of particles, energized with light?
What about the fact that the SW Visual Dictionary, which sports an explanation as to how blaster bolts work, associates this description to a picture of the Death Star's turbolaser?
What about the fact that blasters, according to some, are very different than laser and turbolasers, and yet, according to an EU source, Vader's TIE fighter was equipped with heavy blasters, which behaved the exact same way than TIE laser cannons and X-Wing laser cannons?
How could those things travel at c since they're clearly not said to be pure light in any sense, since they're clearly mixed and will interfere with each other?

In the end, who just gives what the contradictory EU explanations say, since the films clearly show that they behave the same frakin' way, and even more, look exactly identical?

Probably some EU fan who can't admit that a lot of the EU stuff released in the past, didn't go through a necessary filter of consistency, and that Saxton's intervention does nothing to make the case better.
Wars has the power generation technology to create the superlaser. Wars has the power channeling technology to create the superlaser. 200GT MTLs are child's play by comparison.
That's not my point. Certain reactor technologies need to be of a given minimal volume. That's why we don't have fission reactors the size of a hand ball.
Thus far, all superlasers have been associated to enormous power plants. Given that a superlaser displays particularily exclusive effects, it is strongly likely that we may never see a considerably smaller generator to make a superlaser what it is.
It is cleary not a solid point to argue on, I admit, but still worth the notice.

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Post by Batman » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:29 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:
mojo wrote:Jesus Christ, would somebody put a spellchecker on this site? I don't understand how someone can talk about such intellectual things so intelligently while misspelling every other word. It's literally difficult to read. Batman, I hate to come off like such a douche to a fellow Warsie, but OMFG man.
Not every participant in this debate has Englisch as the first language. For Batman - as for me - it is a foreign language. And while we are maybe still learning, we do mistakes.
Thank you for the sentiment, but he has every right to complain. This is an english language forum and thus if I post here it is my duty to post in an actually legible way. Given that 'I' (however belatedly) was not inconsiderably annoyed by the spelling errors (and fucked-up formatting in places) of that post I grant that mojo had every right to complain about it. I HAVE fixed the errors I have found and would be grateful to the community to point out the ones I have not.
And I WOULD like to know how you, WILGA, know that english is NOT my mother tongue.
It isn't helpfull to complain about the mistakes if you don't show us - or at least me - I can't speak for Batman or others - what exactly the mistakes are. You shouldn't do this in the thread - but you can do it via pm.
Again, I would be grateful for the remaining mistakes being pointed out.

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Post by Batman » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:53 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Batman wrote:
Which is a process that NETS them Valentons of energy, not requires it and I'm afraid the Genesis torpedo is lost tech, and oh, both the sun and the planet were ALREADY THERE.
The sun in the Mutara sector appeared to be there already, but I think if you actually watch the movie, you'll see that you're confusing the Regula One planetoid with the later, Earth-sized Genesis planet.
You're right. Doesn't change the fact that the process would result in a net energy GAIN.
The difference being, we have a canon source for them 200GT MTLs. We do NOT for MT/GT photorps. And have you ever bothered to work out the fuel requirements for M/AM power generation to match Wars ?
You mean you think you have a canon source for 200 GT HTLs.
No I don't. The ICSes are canon. They are NOT contradicted by the movies and thus they stay.
We have no actual movie quote or visual confirmation that anything of sort exists for SW weapons outside of the Death Stars' superlaser, and most of he EU remains in large disagreement with AOTC ICS.
And as the movies fail to actually CONTRADICT the AOTC ICS, the numbers are canon.
As for ST matching those levels of firepower with torpedoes, they could, using 4 photon torpedoes, each one using very dense reactants (anti-iron or anti-gold) to create a 2,000 kg warhead for a yeild of approximately 43 GT (169 GT total).
A pity we never actually see them do that. And thanks for comparing an omnidirectional explosive (of a yield with no canon support whatsoever) with a DEW.
But that's hardly necessary as KT,MT, and at the very upper limit: single-digit GT range firepower is all that is needed to match up with canon SW movie firepower,
A pity the movies aren't the only canon there is, then. Can you show the movies DIRECTLY CONTRADICTING the 200GT MTLs? No? Sucks to be you I guess.
and only requires a few tens of kilograms of antimatter at most.
-Mike
Which we curiously enough NEVER EVER SEE and which would waste the vast majority of their yield on empty space anyway. Unlike a TL.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:55 pm

Batman wrote:And I WOULD like to know how you, WILGA, know that english is NOT my mother tongue.
If I'm not mistaken, I even know that your mother tongue is German.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:04 pm

Batman, WILGA is a former SDN member. So it's not surprising that he knows about your mother tongue.

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Post by Batman » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:22 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Batman, WILGA is a former SDN member. So it's not surprising that he knows about your mother tongue.
Given that SPANKY who has been with SDN even longer than I have didn't catch onto that until I explicitely told him so you'll excuse me for being surprised at members of other forums getting it first, pardon the pun, bat.
And is there any way to get smileys around here?

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:32 pm

Batman wrote: Given that SPANKY who has been with SDN even longer than I have didn't catch onto that until I explicitely told him so you'll excuse me for being surprised at members of other forums getting it first, pardon the pun, bat.
And is there any way to get smileys around here?
I think if you want smilies you have to post them from photobucket or something. I believe Jedi Master Spock is on record as stating that smilies make the board look unprofessional.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:45 pm

Batman wrote:
Which is a process that NETS them Valentons of energy, not requires it and I'm afraid the Genesis torpedo is lost tech, and oh, both the sun and the planet were ALREADY THERE.
Mike DiCenso wrote:
The sun in the Mutara sector appeared to be there already, but I think if you actually watch the movie, you'll see that you're confusing the Regula One planetoid with the later, Earth-sized Genesis planet.
Batman wrote:

You're right. Doesn't change the fact that the process would result in a net energy GAIN.
So what if it does? The process actually worked enough to make at least the planet form from the nebula didn't it?
The difference being, we have a canon source for them 200GT MTLs. We do NOT for MT/GT photorps. And have you ever bothered to work out the fuel requirements for M/AM power generation to match Wars ?
You mean you think you have a canon source for 200 GT HTLs.
No I don't. The ICSes are canon. They are NOT contradicted by the movies and thus they stay.
At best they are a secondary source of canon, part of the other parallel universe of the EU continuity, and the EU is often in direct contradiction to the AOTC ICS.
We have no actual movie quote or visual confirmation that anything of sort exists for SW weapons outside of the Death Stars' superlaser, and most of he EU remains in large disagreement with AOTC ICS.
And as the movies fail to actually CONTRADICT the AOTC ICS, the numbers are canon.
Um, no. The movies simply speaking do not show this level of firepower or anything like it outside of the Death Stars superlasers. In several instances were we should see such firepower, the 200 GTs is conspicously missing. If that weren't enough, there is nothing at all in the second-order canon movie novelizations that suggest anything close to GT-level firepower, and all references to power sources imply or directly state that only nuclear fusion power, not hypermatter, nor anything else. Thus with fusion power, no 200 GT TLs since fusion power has very definite limits.

It is now up to you to prove that 200 GT TLs are reasonable given the above canon limitations, as well as those imposed by the continuity of the EU.
As for ST matching those levels of firepower with torpedoes, they could, using 4 photon torpedoes, each one using very dense reactants (anti-iron or anti-gold) to create a 2,000 kg warhead for a yeild of approximately 43 GT (169 GT total).
A pity we never actually see them do that. And thanks for comparing an omnidirectional explosive (of a yield with no canon support whatsoever) with a DEW.
By using your logic above, they never did anything to contradict such a thing. therefore it is possible (remember that in Trek, the exact process of storing antimatter is never made known). In turn in the canon of the Classic Star Trek TV series, clear references are made to unusual things like an ounce of antimatter being sufficent to blow off half the atmosphere of an Earth-like planet ("Obsession" [TOS2]), while in "The Immunity Syndrome" [TOS2], a charge of antimatter was not only enough to kill a planet-sized space-going amoeba, but also rupture it's outer membrane and toss the nearly million ton Enterprise out into space a good ways.
But that's hardly necessary as KT,MT, and at the very upper limit: single-digit GT range firepower is all that is needed to match up with canon SW movie firepower,
A pity the movies aren't the only canon there is, then. Can you show the movies DIRECTLY CONTRADICTING the 200GT MTLs? No? Sucks to be you I guess.
It's a pity that the movies and their novelizations never support anything higher than low MT-range firepower for TLs.
and only requires a few tens of kilograms of antimatter at most.
-Mike
Which we curiously enough NEVER EVER SEE and which would waste the vast majority of their yield on empty space anyway. Unlike a TL.
None of which is anywhere near outside the range of Federation technology limits, either. Thus a vaild speculation, and it is in-line with canon statements for firepower as well as visuals.
-Mike

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:48 pm

Batman wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:Batman, WILGA is a former SDN member. So it's not surprising that he knows about your mother tongue.
Given that SPANKY who has been with SDN even longer than I have didn't catch onto that until I explicitely told him so you'll excuse me for being surprised at members of other forums getting it first, pardon the pun, bat.
And is there any way to get smileys around here?
For the time being JMS has disable access to the smilies. If you want them, I guess you have to do it the old fashioned way.... ;-)

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:19 am

Not suprising since the novelizations often makes use of early shooting scripts. You see this with the Star Wars movies. But unlike SW, the ST movie novelizations are not canon, and so are not admissible.
-Mike

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