There was a time when there were more knowledgeable people at SBC than there are now. In fact, there seems to be a lot of "amateurs" left. There's that overall feeling that several good debaters I saw over the years have not participated in a debate in ages.
Let's take a look at some strange ideas:
It is a rather strange conception about the Goa'uld that DV presented here, for it's been shown that even a minuscule threat such as Earth could be taken seriously, about three to four years after the Stargate program was necro'd. All that time the Goa'uld had bigger fish to deal with, as the entire dominion was in turmoil after Ra's demise.DesertViking wrote: If the gould take the federation seriously, they could really do a number on it. you have a fleet of hataks strike deep into the AQ and strike targets of opportunity. Initially, Trek won't be able to mobilize enough ships to stand up to the invaders in any one location, while the gould can gather the ships very quickly. After two months the federation will be in tatters economically, and the gould might be able to start demanding surrenders.
This is within their capabilities. I don't think trek could mount a effective defense against the first two months.
alternatively, they can remove all their tech from world the federation approaches without significant loss, and play an underground war of infiltration, espionage, and sabotage. The federation won't be looking for the locals tales of egyptian gods to show up as parasites infecting the local populace.
Its not in character though. The gould probably won't take the federation seriously, which means the Federation will have plenty of time to capture and analyze gould tech. If they do this then the gould go down in flames as the Federation refits their ships with ridiculous tech from two bases that falls into their hands from undermanned and careless raids by the gould.
I have no doubt the gould can crush the federation if they put their minds to it.
I have no doubt that trek can reverse engineer and implement everything the gould have in a matter of months.
The only thing that saved Earth - which actions against the entire Goa'uld dominion were at best trivial, as any downed Lord would be replaced by another one or see his forces assimilated by another Lord - was the Asgards' Planet Treaty.
In the OP, Goa'uld forces are united under Ra and they clash with the AQ powers. Certainly more potent than piddly 20th century SG Earth.
See, this is the kind of curiosity I was alluding to earlier on. I know that even three years ago, there would have been like 4 or 5 members already there to remind other posters that acknowledging an enemy of the size of the AQ forces and Goa'uld alliances against a common foe were very real and quick to happen.
It didn't take much time either for the System Lords to convene of a summit when, a few months before that, they started to see their forces attacked as a whole by an enemy never identifying himself and using fast attacks.
The transphasic torpedoes were specific anti-Borg weapons. They were built to defeat Cube shields, and those weapons were of much reduced relevance against the interspatial manifolds, which had their own shields regulated from the central nexus by the Borg Queen; a mere question of adapting the shields would have reduced the transphasic torpedoes to a negligible menace if she had managed to pull it off. This once again proving that TP weren't brute force weapons but ones of cheating nature, and the Borg were about to nullify that cheat.Mith wrote: I don't think Starfleet is at all good at "revenge engineering". Reverse engineering is a different matter. As for the Goa'uld...they've never really struck me as all that innovative nor do they really show a strong concept for stealing technology from other races. The way this is going to end is probably be with Section 31 causing the System Lords to turn on each other while they smuggle technology to the UFP while they break out the transphasic torpedoes and work on phaser lances.
Then, as far as the Goa'uld are concerned, they're fairly capable of uniting, even without a central leader (Ra in the OP). Especially when the menace is known.
Their ships may also possess internal sensor tech (at least Anubis' did and he's the other dude leading the Goa'uld forces in scenario 2), so much that if they have strong reasons to believe their ships can be infiltrated, they could tag intruders.
Here again is another sign that SBC saw its quality drop. Any decent SG debater, or even a regular debater knowing his minimal salt and not enjoying Trek or simply caring about accuracy regarding Stargate, would have easily reminded Trekkies of the existence of Ash'raks, the Goa'uld spy/assassins. Plus the cloaking ships, brainwash devices, host parasiting, etc.
Plus the fact that the Goa'uld are simply far more vicious than people remember. Using kids as hosts for WMDs has been shown twice, for example.
The claim of shitty copies is again most incorrect.Inquisitor Ryan wrote: [replying to Mith]
Point of order. You say that, however all Goa'uld technology is, by definition, stolen from other races, the Goa'uld show an almost Chinese ability to make shitty copies of other races technology. Everything they have and use is an example of it.
Not only we have rarely seen the original tech that would be beyond the supposedly "extrapolated" device used by the Goa'uld, but it's known that they managed to crack the working of the resurrection cube and turn it into sarcophagi with frightening efficiency, granting them immortality.
It also goes without saying that aside from the Asgards, nigh untouchable, the Goa'uld didn't have much tech to scavenge, nor did have any big reason to push it hard beyond what they had, considering their feudal way of life and the superiority of their tech, largely based around the use of naqahdah and the wonderful healing systems they possess, which made them for all intents and purposes immortal as long as no one would break that cycle.
In fact, the claim of "shitty copies" is beyond being merely unsubstantiated, and no one called him on that. Mith even agreed, despite numerous past exchanges with Gaters and debating in threads involving Stargate's most known factions.
You also see some posts by people who really try it too hard to lowball the Goa'uld as much as possible:
The line from Thor is vague. It has always been. There's never been any information about what kind of power he spoke of, he never said how fast it would happen, or if it would involve the Goa'uld engaging all their forces, which is totally doubtful considering their nature (they barely trust their shadow, they wouldn't leave their worlds unguarded).kinkade0001 wrote:Well considering that Thor said 100 times rather than 99.5 or 100.2365 times more powerful, I'm going to assume he wasn't being exact, but rather rounding. But if you take him literally the Supreme Commander of the Asgard, a guy who is in a position to know his shit, said that the sum total of all power of the Goa'uld System Lords amounted to 100 times that of the two single worst Ha'taks ever seen in Star Gate. Now we can take that to mean the System Lords have 200 ships at their disposal, or rather that the total of all their power equals 200 such ships. With command ships being larger and more powerful, they would logically account for more than "1" ship on this list likely bringing the overall number of ships down from 200. Factor in space stations, Al'kesh and various other armed craft and you can further reduce the number of Capitol ships down from Thor's 200.Slayer_of_Gods wrote:
THOR
They have decided it is a concern to be dealt with. The System Lords are capable of launching an assault one hundred times more powerful than that which you previously withstood at the hands of Apophis.
All told we're looking at the Federation alone fielding 10 times as many ships as the Goa'uld. Factor in the Klingons, Cardasians and the Romulans and the Go'uld get buried in sheer numbers.
If merely established a lower end, and only a useful one if you thought it referred to ship count.
Talking of ship count, kinkade's methodology is just too weird.
For example, Al'keshes were never part of fleet counts. They were not displayed on tactical screens; only mother ships were, like at the battle of Dakara. They weren't even deemed relevant by the Tok'ra to require tagging.
I've seen Vasuda's sound calculation attacked for no other reason than it implied a number of ships that the Goa'uld had in stock and which could totally work with other elements, one of them reminded by SpartanElite's post, which got utterly ignored. It's a pity because it refers to an event providing a new view on what the Goa'uld had in their sleeves when they had no choice but engage all they had against the Replicators.
Some other points:
We've seen a Goa'uld mothership be repaired by only two people largely working from the central control power chamber (with the crystal panels), despite the hull having suffered external damage, which did result into the destruction of the hyper engines and the shields ("Exodus"). Those systems were brought back online within one hour.kinkade0001 wrote: Trek has a numbers advantage, more ships, far better troops and many many more of them. The Gould have fewer ships, piss poor troops (more akin to thugs then soldiers) and a 13th century mud hut economy. The only thing the Gould have going for them is Hyperdrive (distance) and shields. They start out being able to dictate engagements, but the AQ powers would quickly exploit the Stargate network to infiltrate and gain tech to R&D. It wouldn't take long for the Romulans to get the idea to kidnap a minor Gould and steal a few Al'kesh to get at their Hyperdrives and shields. Since Gould tech scales so readily.......stealing an Al'kesh is like stealing a Ha'tak in miniature. It's just too easy for the AQ to get their hands on Go'uld tech for the Go'uld to keep their advantage for long.
All Goa'uld ships are so automatized that they can be piloted by less than five men, even in theory just one or two (the second one handling all combat systems). That's very different from Trek ships requiring crews thousand times larger.
Goa'uld tech doesn't scale readily. An Al'kesh is certainly not a miniature Ha'tak, otherwise they'd come with battle shields in the high terajoule range at least (quite good for 30 meters ships, eh?) and their firepower would be comparable.
That said, kinkade was being needlessly facetious and strawmaning the other side, largely because he didn't face any opposition so he considered he could come with any piece of nonsense and fly free with it.
I'll skip on the repeated claims of easy reverse engineering. A few seem to be understand it can go both ways.
I'll also skip on the repeated notion of incompetence on the System Lords' part. It's not particularly worth wasting time on it as I haven't seen any substantiating of them at once.
There's also been a claim that Goa'uld industry was mediocre. Another claim that would have been quickly challenged years ago. The construction of a Ha'tak above a slave camp in the middle of nowhere at Erebus or the equally daring and recent construction of Apophis' new supership (aborted by SG-1 using super duper Atoniek gauntlets in "Upgrades") also in the middle of nowhere. We also saw Heru'ur's forces deploy seemingly self-building pyramidal structures on the ground that would have been used by three pyramid ships to land on. Those structures had whole sections growing out of the blue. And finally, let's count the fact that we never saw any real shipyard. As far as we can tell, we could literally claim they grow their ships from trees.
There's also Slayer_of_Gods quote mining from transcripts he doesn't read in full, and from episodes he didn't watch.
As I write that, I'm now on page 6 I believe, and things are slowly starting to get better, as the thread has gotten the attention from people who are more knowledgeable on the SG side. kinkade is unfortunately not getting any better.
Oh, I believe it must really hurt Inquisitor Ryan to have to quote me in order to obtain good evidence and win some points in the thread. :D
Brave boy, here's a cookie.