SBC thread on SW firepower... again... :)

[Praeothmin]

But this post was nice, it repeated many low-powered instances in SW...

[Mr. Oragahn]

2010. >:(

[Praeothmin]

yeah, I was talking about a new thread, but only linked the old one... :)

It's this one...

[Mr. Oragahn]

I was reading the thread in the general forum, which quickly became exceedingly annoying.
It's more than 23 pages long.
And now, there's that one, more focused on KALX!
The first page is a very heavy handed introduction into absurd interpretations: some people speak of fireballs on Kashyyyk and try to calc them, but the scanned pictures we get to see show no such thing, aside from very small balls of fire lost in the canvas, without being able to tell if they occur on the ground or are part of some random explosions that we often see happen during battleship battles.

As usual, I'm amazed by the silly arguments made by Warsies. It's at such times that I realize that some people are not capable of understanding simple things, and that despite years of debate and plenty of evidence brought forth and other real life examples dissected ad nauseam.

See:

] As noted, one could say it's roughly nuclear. But it's nowhere near THE NUMBERs that a certain book touted. Its not even in that order of magnitude.

Really? So tell me how you deduced this since the targets were magic trees stronger than any modern construction material, nor does the location of the MF necessarily have anything to do with the area hit by the Anakin Solo. After the bombardment the planet's firestorms were bad enough to require a fleet of starships to extinguish

The entire incident is unquantifiable, and the ICS numbers are still able to be rationalized with the rest of canon.

What so spectacular about that? First of all, wouldn't the use of a fleet just be a way to extinguish the fires as fast as possible?
Secondly, if the planet has been subjected to a bombardment, even piddly kiloton shots would leave massive firestorms, especially with an indiscriminate bombing at random places all over a large continental area.
I mean, the hell? Is he even thinking?

DRSL is still clutching to those ICS numbers. Geez.
The ICS levels of firepower would most likely leave much more than mere firestorms to be concerned with.

Oh and that Caedus guy from "Legacy of the Force: Inferno" really has some broken logic going on. Somehow, he thinks the Wookiees will prefer someone who attacked their world to someone who just failed to come to their defense. But in fact it was just another offshot of the brutish Tarkin doctrine. Punish one hard and the others shut up. Mind you, this does work wonders in the real world.

I also don't get the offtopic. The passage from LOTF is useless as Caedus was baiting Ben and could have decided to use a firepower just good enough to produce self fueling firestorms.

We see the low cloud layer, and fireballs seem to be about as large as there's room between the ground and the bottom of those clouds.
The art may be pretty but it doesn't make much sense. There's a massive lack of smoke and there's nothing that could explain that except the rock been scorched bare and for some reason, the smoke being pushed away and dissolved by other explosions, and even that wouldn't manage to actually erase the smoke from the scenery.
No matter the yield of those bolts, there should have been massive firestorms, notably due to the sheer thermal radiation. The only way not for this to happen would have to be related to a not so nuclear-like level of explosion, like here, at less than 500 tonnes of chemical explosive, or here with a stock of 50 tons of explosives.
I'm not sure how you could get the red glowing crap and no smoke, again.

----------------------

Leeland Chee: "ICS Stats are canon."
Jared: "There's no doubt that it's a canon book. But so are the books that that state light guns on capships are in the terajoule range. And so are the books where "full power" turbolaser blasts against a jungle surface have effects that are equivalent to barely a kiloton, if that.""
Leo1: "True, but its not what Mr Chee said." :)

Leo1... stats are canon because the book is canon because it's C-canon just like any other bit inside any other C-canon book.
The same stupid claim that because ICS stats are canon, somehow, in their minds, that makes them superior, just because LC refers to them particularly?
Just like in other interviews they'd say that [random name, object, place, figure] is canon because it's found in a canonical source?
lol
Apparently Ulic and Leo1 share the same brain, so that might explain a few things.

-----------------------

Oh, SF Fan peddles the same crap Brian Young has resurrected through his videos.
Really, this necro isn't done yet.
SF Fan is being massively dishonest and adopts the same denial tactic as his predecessors. I suspect he doesn't understand what he's talking about at all.
He's better left ignored, because he's just going to parrot other people's arguments he just don't get at all.

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Q99: "Planets are really tough. While they should get pretty bad effects on the surface, we're not anywhere remotely near turn into asteroid field range, even with ICS calcs."

No, they're not armoured. They're just massive and largely made of rock. Something with ICS firepower would laugh at. With that kind of firepower, you can safely start picking whole nation-sized sections out of the planet without too much trouble.


-----------------------

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... st-7764053

Leo1 is too excited.
Somehow, I suppose he thinks Leeland Chee's opinion makes the ICS numbers more canonical.
Has he said they were more canon? No. Unless they became T or G canon, obviously.
He just said he would be relying on them if he had to know a thing about firepower. Good, it shows he understands nothing of the situation -- and that's quite alarming as far as internal continuity is concerned!

I'm sure Vympel and co are understanding this is an order to use the ICS numbers before anything else. :D

[Praeothmin]

Oh, SF Fan peddles the same crap Brian Young has resurrected through his videos.
Really, this necro isn't done yet.
SF Fan is being massively dishonest and adopts the same denial tactic as his predecessors. I suspect he doesn't understand what he's talking about at all.
He's better left ignored, because he's just going to parrot other people's arguments he just don't get at all.

Of course he does, he's SWST... :)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Oh, SF Fan is SWST ??
That explains it all then!

As for Leo1, on Chee's opinion, as expected:

Bzzzt. Wrong. Some C-canon sources clearly are given preference over others. If that wasn't the case, Chee would be stumped at the question asked of him just the other day about inconsistencies in firepower figures between two C-canon sources- where he notes that officially, anyone being directed to firepower would be directed to the ICS in preference to a source that disagrees. Did you even read Ulic's post on this subject?

And moar:

There's Leland Chee, debunking the notion that "all C-canon sources are equal". Or do you not appreciate how such a position is obljectiely impossible to maintain in the face of this?

The reliability of a source over another one is strictly defined by the Holocron canon policy.
Chee has made no statement about the ICS stats being of any superior canonical level. Aside from his own (misinformed) opinion, he's merely confirmed what we knew, that in the EU, the ICS is canon, just as anything else.
In fact, Leo1 and else may be reading too much into Chee's words. The ICS is certainly the major source to provide firepower figures. It makes sense to go for them first, among all other canonical sources.
He's not denying them because there's been no project to deal with the work of Saxton.
He is being totally neutral. He's replying like a corporate robot, here. He doesn't care about the meaning of those numbers. He's only concerned about their place in the hierarchy and refuses to engage into any debate about the validity of those numbers.
If there's anything wrong with them, it will be known through an official retcon as they usually do, on a case by case basis. Until then, he's logically going to say it's OK.

Leo1 is seeing things anyway. Until he comes back with a statement that shows some C-canon sources are above others - a statement that would surely contradict all we knew about the Holocron canon policy - he can pretty much continue sucking his thumb and cry, it won't change a bolt to the situation.

[Mr. Oragahn]

What's that error Chee made about a clone who didn't have children but adopted them in fact?

[Mr. Oragahn]

You can add that one:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... nd.226805/

ICS apologists point out the existence of weapons much more powerful than blasters and else, like thermal detonators, and also point out that they're not used. Then they ask why, despite having them.

The point they miss, though, is not really why such weapons are not used but why they would be used instead of the super duper gigajoule lasers on the LAATs and those +1 km megajoule blasters.
The answer is quite simple: why they don't use those weapons more is due to some silly doctrine. But the fact is that if they needed heavier firepower, the infantry would have to resort to powerful detonators and rocket launchers, and aircrafts would rely on bombs, not their supposedly gigajoule beams which they could fire on and on.

[Mr. Oragahn]

From this post:

I have to go to sleep soon so I can't reply to your whole post, and probably won't until sat at the earliest. But in particular, I'm referring to Darksaber in the first instance.

Well aside from the usual objections I recall being brought up (Daala had troops on the ground) if your point is 'they used maximum firepower they should have killed everyone' gigatons has nothing to do with this, because by your logic it rules out megaton and kiloton range firepower too, since the whole logic chain is 'if they are using max power shots they should be killing everyone' Fuck by your logic they shouldn't have even bothered with troops, they should have just killed everyone and moved on.

Executor-class have something like 4000 odd TLS and HTLs I wager. 2000 if we assume only the TLS fired, which I will since I recall the quote only mentioning turbolasers. ASsuming .100 kiloton TL bolts (so we can avoid that dreaded GIGATON) yield) a 100 kt nuclear explosion (since oyu insist on treating TLS like nukes I feel justified in using this even though it is debatable) will cause third degree burns at a 4.5 km radius, and near total fatalities from blast effects at 1.3 km. Assuming we ignore thermal effects and go strictly with air blast each TL will cover approximately 5.3e6 square meters of area (6.4e7 m^2 for thermal radiation.) 2000 such blasts will cover an area 10.6e9 square meters (or 1e10 square meters) in area with every shot. Assuming one blast per two seconds (EGW&T) They would be able to wipe out all life on the surface (or virtually all of it) within a day. Hell assuming a few hundred TT delivered ot the surface within a day you could heat up the atmosphere to easily lethal levels - 400-500K) and you wouldn't need more than a few megatons per shot doing that either. I should also note that if we're using 3rd degree burns as the lethality benchmark rather than just air blast, the timeframe drops dramatically (or we can drop the yield dramatically for the same amount of time. 5 kiloton blasts have the same radius for 3rd degree burns as 100 kilotons does for lethal air blast.)

Except.. you don't need to wipe out all life to kill the Jedi, unless they can magically teleport or outrun shockwaves via the force (which they can't.) So you only have to focus on a much smaller area of effect , which means that the yield requirements actually drop even more. 1 kiloton nuclear blasts for example had 280 meter lethal air blast and 687 meter 3rd degree burn radius. This time its 'only' 2.5e5 square meters affected per shot which jumps to ~5e8 square meters with a single bombardment. Which is about equal to some 500 square km and a 12-13 km radius circle. So again unless Jedi are routinely hypersonic, they're not going to escape that sort of lethality. Hell over a reliatlvey short timeframe (an hour) you could wipe out a continent by those standards! So again this means TLs can't be kiloton-range either. Hell like I said before, even sub kiloton won't save you here, given shit like DPICM warheads 100 meter radius. Assuming a TL was equal in lethality to a DPICM you get 3.1e4 square meters, lethal area, which works out to 6.3e7 square meters every salvo, which works out to a 'mere' 63 square km area affected with each salvo. Again no way a Jedi can escape that, now TLs can't be stronger than a 155mm conventional explosives munition. A US hand grenade has a lethal radius of 5 meters (78.5 square meters affected) which means 157,000 square meters per salvo. Not quite a square km affected of course, but it's still a huge volume and a prolonged (minutes or hours) long bombardment would still be able to blanket a large area. Congrats, you've just proven by your own logic that STar Wars again can't have firepower greater than a hand grenade, and that this quote contradicts any example of higher end firepower.

Indeed, you could kill all life on a planet by just dumping a few tens of billions of those munitions on a planet, and something the size of na executor should be able to haul around that much ordnance. And your total 'firepower' yield would be like single or double digit gigatons.

Good job Connor. You've finely demonstrated that you can perfectly understand, albeit unwittingly, that you don't even need megaton yields from an Executor-type starship to complete a BDZ under a day.

The funny thing is - its actually harder to explain why they didn't USE megatons or kiloton range firepower than gigaton or above, because gigaton range, etc has all those unpleasant side effects that can fuckup a planet majorly and long term that a person might want to avoid.

Yeah because depositing a total of several gigatons all over a planet won't turn it into a shithole no one would want to live on.

It's also rather funny that we're somehow supposed to ignore concussion missiles and shit - like if Daala were really going all out, why isnt she deploying the thousands of bombers and the concussion missiles the starship has to even increase the wiping out factor. I'm pretty sure Darksaber mentioned the ship carrying thousands of bombers alone. (The bomber example is actually pretty hilarious given the effect of Thermal detonators in the bacta war in melting and vaporizing a hole through snow about a km wide and half a km deep.) and some definitely nuclear yields. Which agian by your standards is an irreconcilable contradiction, and should be dismissed.

Seems that Lucas generally doesn't like missiles that much when his big toys are involved.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Leo1 and friends are having their shit served to them and they're eating it too.

Let's notice that it's obvious that the ships are still in a relevant part of Coruscant's atmosphere, due to the very obvious atmospheric haze seen over the horizon that goes way up above.

Notice also how they still forget the SPHA-T beam from the hangar not producing an epic troutaton explosion as it plows through an enemy ship. I wonder how many times this will have to be repeated before they acknowledge it. The ship clearly tanked the blue beam for several frames without any effect at all. Then the beam made the interior explode and kept pouring into the ship for several extra frames, without amplifying the firestorm to any degree.
I guess the SPHA-T fired a 1 gigajoule beam, defeated the 1 gigajoule shielding, punched through the anti-1 gigajoule armour, and produced 1 gigajoule effects inside the CIS ship.

[Mr. Oragahn]

As for the trench armour being breached, how is that as a hole is made in the supposedly armour, nothing gets sucked into space?

[Lucky]

As for the trench armour being breached, how is that as a hole is made in the supposedly armour, nothing gets sucked into space?

How is it that Leo1 is not permanently banned from that site, but you are?

[Mr. Oragahn]

I"m obnoxious... and often times right? :D

[Mr. Oragahn]

Leo1's idiotic argument that he's been championing for nearly a decade now is even more idiotic in light of how shields are said to work in the ICS.
The model is sink tank with neutrino radiators. Such shields are rated at a bleeding rate capability in the thousands of gigatons per second. Meaning that under normal conditions, nothing less than this incredibly stupid level of power will actually fill the shield system and make it overload. More, even shield still working at a capacity of 0.1% would still never notice the input brought upon them by a massed firing in the multi-gigajoule range.
And yet, somehow, we see a ship clearly absorbing the blue beam coming from the Venator's hangar for several frames, clearly indicating that the shields were working.
Based on the shield model from the ICS, we would have to believe that the shields of the CIS ship had nearly reached their maximum containment capacity in teratons or more, and only a few gigajoules were necessary.

It's totally stupid. It's the Final Boss model, you know: End of level Bosses are known, in most games, to tank shot after shot of any kind of weapon, and suddenly, that pissy last shot makes the entire thing blow up, and it doesn't really matter if you shot it with a rocket launcher or a pistol. As long as it only had 1 life point left on its initial stock of 100,000 LP, anything could take it down, but before that fatal moment, the Boss was largely combat-able.

I pity those desperate enough to go looking for a lawyer, getting lured by whatever bullshit Leo1 sells them to get paid for his "services" (Vympel is a lawyer, or more a lowya in this case). As a matter of fact I don't know how many lawyers could afford wasting that much time on Internet discussions.
I'd ask for total refund if I knew how bad he was at defending his nonsense against non-lawyers who handle him rather easily. I mean the guy is really that bad at defending his opinions and even thinks he can defend any kind of nonsense based on his alleged professional skills. Total WUT.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The "view wall" filtering what is seen outside of the ship is quite an odd claim. It's related to a part of the ROTS novelization about how computers enhance the view of the battle going on outside: for example turning turbolaser bolt paths into shafts of light.
I'm not sure how this combines with the much discussed "hairs connecting planetoids" bit, but I find it odd that there could be anything like very long segments of light visible to the naked eye on one side, and yet computers being needed to actually draw lines which aren't visible to the naked eye of anyone standing in a room of the Invisible Hand.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... 34/page-10

Two persons standing at different places in the room but looking at the same window will see different things through that same window. So no computer could paste fancy graphics on the transparent window without turning this into a total mess.
The only way for this to work is for the windows to actually block sight and act as screens, so that no matter where you stand in the room, you'll see the same thing as anyone else.
Of course, the effect will obviously reveal its "fakeness" because your eyes, your sense of perspective and your movements will tell your brain rather quickly that you're looking at a projection.