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coyote
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Post by coyote » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:55 am

GStone, you're missing the point. When I said that the exact calcs "don't matter" I mean that jumping through all the mathematical hoops-- something which has been done by many people already and obviously not settled the situation-- right now is not important to the topic.

The topic is how logic or debate techniques on SDN are implemented so that a person from this board faces unfair persecution because he or she doesn't tout a "party line". I have no intent or desire to get bogged down in yet another argument about the numbers.

The focus here is "how the logic is used" not "what th elogic is and how we got it". Personally, I find nothing more tedious than number-crunching.

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AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:00 am

coyote said
Believe it or not, but many of us at SDN enjoy Star Trek. Even Mike Wong admits he's fond of the original series. We don't have some personal thing against Trek-- we just feel it is illogical to assume that Star Trek could beat Star Wars, or even battle them to a standstill, and that any presumption otherwise is illogical and indefensible. It's a mismatch. The two don't really belong together for so many different reasons it shouldn't even be an issue.
You misunderstand those of us who think the Federation would win, well most of us anyways. I believe that many of you do like Star Trek, just like many Trekkies like Star Wars, other wise we wouldn't both making the comparison. We think the Federation would win, or force a stalemate because we feel there is strong evidence for rough parity in terms of military strength between the two factions. Frankly, there just isn't much evidence to support the notion that the Empire is millions of times stronger than the Federation. In order to come to that conclusion, you need to be very select about what evidence you use and what evidence you disregard.

The two points you keep bringing up are that the Empire is more militaristic than the Federation, and that the Empire is so vastly technologically supperior to the Federation that they basically can't be harmed by AQ/BQ weapons. I don't think anyone disagrees that the Empire is more militaristic than the Federation, what we disagree on is what that means for their militaries. A good example of this would be fleet size. Pretty much everyone agrees that Starfleet can field around 10,000 ships, we do get a little conflicting evidence, but do to the circumstances and when this evidence occurs, it can be rectified. However, when it comes to how large the Imperial navy is there is a great deal of dissention. Some claim that it is millions of ships strong and that ISDs are mear cutters or destroyers. Others claim that it is less then 1000 ships and that ISDs are the premier battleships. Using just the films there is far more evidence to support <1000 ships, even using the EU there is considerable contradicting evidence and while most of it doesn't support <1000 it does support a number far less than 1,000,000. As for your point about the Empire being vastly technologically superior in all areas to the Federation, that again lacks consistancy from both universes especially when it comes to combat capablity and speed/ acceleration.
Here's the part that you seem to be having a hard time with-- realizing that we don't adhere to these numbers because of "SDN ideology"... but because they're based on evidence. Had Mike Wong, Dr. Curtis Saxton, Leland Chee, etc, never been born, much less set up any websites or commentaries, the physics would still be there for someone else to comment on.
Um, you do know that Leland Chee doesn't have anything to do with SDN right? His job is basically to make sure the EU is self consistant to a reasonable degree, he definately has his work cut out for him. As for adhering to evidence, you need to be very selective in order to get anything within 2 orders of magnitude of what is in the Saxton authored ICS.

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AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:18 am

The focus here is "how the logic is used" not "what th elogic is and how we got it". Personally, I find nothing more tedious than number-crunching.
Ok, we'll talk about logic and reasoning then. The way you make observations into quantifiable yields is through deductive reasoning, you then use inductive reasoning to infer what the faction as a whole is capable of, simple right? The problem is that inorder for deductive reasoning to give you a factually correct result, both the major and minor premises must be factually correct. If they are unknown then the conclusion isn't worth very much since it is based on incomplete data. If one premise is false then the concluse, while still being a logical deduction, is factually incorrect.

Mike DiCenso
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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:02 pm

This the basic concept that I'd tried to get through to Coyote earlier. Our deductive reasoning on what is being demonstrated by the various factions of the two franchises is sometimes turning out different from the SDN crowd for a variety of reasons.
-Mike

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